I'm betting a Muslim breaks the truce.

I agree, heliosc.

By placing settlements into Palestinian territories, Israel is using their civilains as weapons. That makes their civilians acceptable targets as far as I'm concerned.

Again, I don't care who blows who up, I just don't want to pay for it.

What heliosc said.

No bets--I'm sure a bomb will go off before the week is up.

But at least that violence-institutionalizing bastard Arafat is gone. There would never be peace as long as that guy kept inciting war--hope he's roasting right now.

At least peace does have a chance there now.

/until we discover oil there, or decide we need another airbase

Kaponofor3,

We attacked innnocent civilans in WWII Japan, why? Because we were at war, and we thought that it was our only choice.

Same goes for Palestine.

There are some palestinian terrorist cells who don't give a shiat about any formal cease fire as they openly stated, they take their orders and funds from Iran, Syria and Saudi-Arabia.

That's why this cease fire won't last long, just like the one before.

Also it's interesting that the biggest step in peace happens after Arafat croaked. Strange, isn't it.

my money on the cease fire ending is on right... NOW... i meant NOW...no NOW... NOW... NOW NOW no NOW

A self tapping sheetmetal screw can, with sufficient force driven by the supersonic shock wave of 3 or 4lbs of Semtex held in close quarters, in a bus for example, be driven hard enough into the human body to liquify bone. Most victims have 15-100 of these embedded in their bodies. But usually the worst injuries show no external trauma at all. The shock wave implodes the organs from the inside creating what we call a 'white butterfly' which is what a torso xray looks like - a mass of undifferentianed gloop where the lungs and heart used to be. I iamgine that most people think terrorist bombings are like Jerry Bruckheimer movies with lots of flames and slow motion smokey parts flying through the air. They are not. Just one terrific bang, the bus lifts off the ground, comes back down and not much of anything is left inside. 2 seconds, tops.

Peace will not exist. Peace with periodic atrocties, abuse and violence will. That is something the Israelis have to come to understand the maximalist PLO has not.

TappingTheVein
Also it's interesting that the biggest step in peace happens after Arafat croaked. Strange, isn't it.
Not strange. Obvious.

bmihura: I'm betting a Muslim breaks the truce.


There's a decent chance for an ultra-right Israeli settler to gun down a bunch of Palestinian children or something. They'd be quite happy to see the peace process brought to a halt as well, the better to forward their plans for ethnic cleansing.

2005-02-07 01:52:01 PM JC Superstar

We attacked innnocent civilans in WWII Japan, why? Because we were at war, and we thought that it was our only choice.

Same goes for Palestine.

If you mean that Palestinians attack becaus ethey think they need to, you're completely ignorant of the situation over there.

But I cannot, for all of me, accept killing innocent civilians as a legitimate form of resistance.

What about the innocent civilians killed by the IDF. There has been way more Palestinian civilians killed by Israelis than Israelis killed by Palestinians. You must also considered who drew first blood.

There had not been a single suicide bombing in Israel until after Baruch Goldstein murdered 29 people while they were praying in a mosque. I assume that you are also aware that zionists started conducting terrorist attacks on Palestinians and the British long before Israel was even created. Have you ever heard of the bombing of the King David Hotel? Can you name the future Israeli Prime Minister that orchestrated this deadly terrorist attack?

Everyone should visit B'tselem to get an accurate picture of how Israel treats the Palestinians. B'tselem is The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories. It is run primarily by Israeli Jews that are trying to stop the crimes against humanity routinely committed by their country.

J.G., how so?

jokepro:

Considering that Israelis are right now stealing the Palestinians' food, I don't think it will last very long. How do you think Texans would react if Mexican gangs were stealing their cows and taking them back to Mexico?

Um, this is a black market for bringing in items without permit or proper checking, not stealing them.

You're an idiot.

I got a fiver that says this'll last until tomorrow, when yet another barbarian blows himself up on a bus.

Zoultan: Not strange. Obvious.


That was my lame attempt at sarcasm.

Targeting civilians is NEVER right, regardless of who is the one doing the targeting.

Two words: Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Hours ... 1/50 odds
Days ... 1/5 odds
Weeks ... 1/2 odds
Months ... 1/3 odds
Years ... 1/250 odds
Forever ... 1/1,000,000,000,000,000 odds

I'm taking bets.

jokepro:

Everyone should visit B'tselem to get an accurate picture of how Israel treats the Palestinians. B'tselem is The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories. It is run primarily by Israeli Jews that are trying to stop the crimes against humanity routinely committed by their country.


Betselem is a hardcore leftist pro-palestinian group, it't the same way as learning Israel's history by visiting electronicintifada.com

Elvis,
The acts of war that you're describing are horrible indeed. You'd think that the Isralis would learn that if they force civilan settlements on palestinian lands, build walls through their lands, or commit any other acts of war, then those civilians are acceptable targets. That's war.

If Canada just started building walls through our northern states, or pushing Canadian settlements into US towns, how do you think we'd react?

charmlessman:

2005-02-07 01:59:28 PM charmlessman

Hours ... 1/50 odds
Days ... 1/5 odds
Weeks ... 1/2 odds
Months ... 1/3 odds
Years ... 1/250 odds
Forever ... 1/1,000,000,000,000,000 odds

I'm taking bets.


How do I collect on "Forever"?

KaponoFor3:

There are TONS of beseiged people who have not resorted to terrorism (Tibet, Kurds, etc)

Obviously you've never heard of the PKK , or the Kurdistan Workers Party. Turkey was about to go to war with Syria a few years ago over Syria's support of the PKK. The fact is, any oppressed people will usually resort to terrorism in this day and age due to the relative ease of obtaining the necessary weapons, and the immediate media exposure recieved. The Jews used it, the South Africans used it, the ethnic Albanians used it in Kosovo (and we supported them), and the Chechnayans used it after almost all the former Soviet republics were given independence except Chechnaya.

If the Palestinians were to target and attack Israeli soldiers, well then I have no complaints because that is, to me, a legitimate form of resistance. Targeting civilians is NEVER right, regardless of who is the one doing the targeting.

I agree with you on this. But you must also look at it from the Palestinian viewpoint. Just like in South Africa, the Palestines believe that if they attack the white people, slaughter them in the streets, this will stop the colonialism. That white people would stop coming from Russia, Brooklyn, and from all the corners of the world. They also believe that fear will cause the white people who are already there to leave and go back to their home countries. But I don't view this as a useful strategy because it didn't work in South Africa, and it wont work in Palestine. Their violent tactics wont win them international sympathy, so it's important that they stop and rethink their strategies.

I understand the usage of terrorism as a political tool. But I cannot, for all of me, accept killing innocent civilians as a legitimate form of resistance.

I'm of the mind that war in general is almost always wrong. If the enemy isn't beating down your door, then there is a better way. However, I see no point in making a moral distinction between terrorism and other forms of illegitimate warfare. When we bombed Iraq, thousands of non-combatents died. Tens of thousands died as a result of destroyed infrastructure (utilities, etc), and in the first Gulf War, close to a hundred thousand died because of damaged infrastructure. Does the fact that these innocents died as a result of someone pushing a button from thousands of feet away make it any more legitimate? You can say, "yeah, but in our case, they are collateral damage", but in a very real sense, aren't they collateral damage in the case of terrorists too?

heliosc

You do have people though, like Arafat (before he kicked it, obviously), who have a vested interest in keeping the situation as it is. The power and money they are making only increase as the situation worsens. The people continue to support them because they have always been taught "these guys are the good guys, those are the bad guys."

You were right when you said they are self-interested. But, for some of them, this self interest causes a preference for status quo rather than a viable solution.

And this scenario is just as applicable for some on the Israeli side as well.

With regards to my previous post: I'm not trying to justify terrorism. I'm just saying that not only is it inevitable, but that trying to distinguish between different gradations of immoral behavior is frankly silly.

because of my knowledge of the bible i can confidently say that this will almost last 7 years, but everything will break down at about 3 /12, just before the world ends.

abahe

Your comments are so rediculous and unfounded. Where are the "Concentration Camps" you so brashly speak of? The forced labor? The Ovens?
Get the fark out of here with that bullshiat. I can handle (and have plenty of my own) critique of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians, but ludicrous propaganda bullshiat just doesn't fly.

Honestly, why do we even bother with Israel anymore?


Um, because it is the largest importer and re-seller of US arms, including to countries which the US cannot sell to?

Because Israel in turn develops and manufactures weapons systems which are routinely used by the US military, and have been proven in battle?

Because 90% of US intelligence on the ME comes from Israeli sources?

Because when the US says it supports democracies, it should actually do so?

Because suring the Cold War Israel was the only country in the region the US could rely on?

Because Iraq would have gone nuclear in the 80's if it wasn't for Israel?

Um, this is a black market for bringing in items without permit or proper checking, not stealing them.

Where do you think they are getting the livestock from? I guess you think these mobsters are running their own farms. The truth is they steal them from Palestinian farms. This is nothing new. This has been going on for a long time. Please, visit B'tselem to get a clue about what is going on over there.

There won't be meaningful peace between Israel and the Palestinians until there's a new government in Iran.

Go ahead John Frink....go "liberate" the Iranians. Just dont ask me for help or support.

shipud
Because 90% of US intelligence on the ME comes from Israeli sources?


i want a refund.

Did somebody say bet?


/ bet bet bet bet bet bet bet bet bet bet bet b... that's enough

Betselem is a hardcore leftist pro-palestinian group, it't the same way as learning Israel's history by visiting electronicintifada.com

You obviously don't know what you are talking about. B'tselem is a human rights group run by Israeli Jews. You should do a little fact checking before you start running off at the mouth.

I'd put it down for about as long as the sons of Hitler's soldiers stay out of this thread...And yeah, I believe that the reason they hate Israeli Jews is because of "equality" issues, not what they learned on their daddy's and granddaddy's knees...

2005-02-07 01:58:14 PM jokepro

Targeting civilians is NEVER right, regardless of who is the one doing the targeting.

Two words: Hiroshima and Nagasaki

hell, the firebombings of Tokyo and Dresden did more damage than the A-bombs. Not sure why that is your only example, unless it's just a knee-jerk reaction to nukes in general, as opposed to a real concern for civilians.

How about the Lusitania? 9/11? Holocaust? Invasion of the Soviet Union by the Nazis? Do those bother you at all, or do you just think the US is the bad guy? Your "no matter who is doing the targeting" statement is unconvincing.

Targeting civilians is NEVER right, regardless of who is the one doing the targeting.
Two words: Hiroshima and Nagasaki

You forgot Dresden. In war, what's right is whatever works.

If Israel and Palestine want to blow eachother up, I say that we let them, but let's stop funding it, eh?

Correct in principle, but it's too late to go cold turkey. Since we had a hand in making the mess, we are obliged to have a hand in cleaning it up.

jokepro:

What about the innocent civilians killed by the IDF. There has been way more Palestinian civilians killed by Israelis than Israelis killed by Palestinians. You must also considered who drew first blood.

That's what people say when they can't justify what the Palestinians are doing. Point the finger at the Israelis, and try to scream louder that they are doing it too. Like I said before, targeting innocent civilians is wrong, period, regardless of who is doing the targeting. Will you condemn Palestinian terrorism?

Jokepro, ever hear the statement "some Jews have a gas-chamber mentality"? A relatively famous American Jew said that....

The proof test is here. Arafat is dead.

Either these two peoples actually want peace and will do what it takes to achieve it now. Or, they are both barbarians and simply want to exterminate the other. The US should now press harder than ever to help them find peace. If we find the latter is true, the US should cut off weapons sales to both and leave them be. Then, they both deserve their fate.

Will you condemn Palestinian terrorism?

Of course! Will you condemn the crimes against humanity routinely committed by Israel?

Jokepro, does the IDF deliberately TARGET innocent civilians? Or are they collateral damage in strikes against valid military targets? Palestinians DELIBERATELY target innocent civilians in situations where there's no military target to hit.

"If Canada just started building walls through our northern states, or pushing Canadian settlements into US towns, how do you think we'd react?"

I think it would something like this...
"Alright! Finally we get some real beer!! Yeah!"

/Flame on Farkers!!!

SSNPguerrilla: Obviously you've never heard of the PKK , or the Kurdistan Workers Party.

I have heard of them, I just forgot about them. I stand corrected. Sure, lots of people resort to terrorism, but my argument is more about the morality of it, not the rationality. I understand the rationale, but I don't think the means justify the ends.

Their violent tactics wont win them international sympathy, so it's important that they stop and rethink their strategies.

I disagree. Why do you think the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is always on the front page of the news? When Israelis die, Palestinians get international support as an "oppressed" population. When Palestinians die, they get international support because of the Israelis overreacting to their attacks. It's an endless cycle, and one that Arafat perfected. I'm hopeful that Abbas won't do the same -- nothing indicates he will.

DECMATH

Correct in principle, but it's too late to go cold turkey. Since we had a hand in making the mess, we are obliged to have a hand in cleaning it up.

Let the British clean it up. It used to be their colony.

Shouldnt be long...i tend to think that if you throw stones at soldiers with tanks and guns... you're just begging for natural selection to happen.

-jordanariel

jokepro:

Where do you think they are getting the livestock from? I guess you think these mobsters are running their own farms. The truth is they steal them from Palestinian farms. This is nothing new. This has been going on for a long time. Please, visit B'tselem to get a clue about what is going on over there.

They take them from the palestinias, true. but they do not steal them. This happens all the time, mainly with fruit and vegetables.Sellers make lots of money doing that since buying them from the palestinians is a lot cheaper since there are no proper health regulations and other processes that raise the price.

And as i said before, Betselem is a hardcore pro-palestinian group, their reports should be taken with a grain of salt.

2005-02-07 02:03:16 PM shipud


Honestly, why do we even bother with Israel anymore?


Um, because it is the largest importer and re-seller of US arms, including to countries which the US cannot sell to?

They also trade our weapons secrets that they are not supposed to sell, such as laser-guided artillery technology, to people like China. Why is that a good thing?

Oh yeah--US corporate execs go to jail for doing civilian business with some of those countries, and you think it's OK to sell them weapons? You're a smart one.

Because Israel in turn develops and manufactures weapons systems which are routinely used by the US military, and have been proven in battle?

examples, please.

Because 90% of US intelligence on the ME comes from Israeli sources?

You think they ever spin that a bit? Try asking my ex-wife about me. I bet you get 50% good intelligence, and 50% crap. And no matter what she says, my penis is too bigger than that.

Because when the US says it supports democracies, it should actually do so?

Why is that our job? And if you think that Isreal is anything other than a thinly veiled theocracy, you're wrong.

Because suring the Cold War Israel was the only country in the region the US could rely on?

You mean buy out?

Because Iraq would have gone nuclear in the 80's if it wasn't for Israel?

This has a bit of merit--except that it was Iran they bombed, not Iraq. They haven't kept anyone from going nuclear.

JC Superstar spoken like a true racist and terrorist. As long as you advocate where people you personally hate can be suffered to live, I'm with you. I recommend you fork over your home to whomever claims to have a better claim to it.

DasWiggy


Palestinians DELIBERATELY target innocent civilians in situations where there's no military target to hit.

further proof the palestinians simply aren't trying. when the other side is trying to avoid civilian casualties, and still outpaces you, you really aren't putting forth the effort.

Zoultan,

I disagree, we should just let them be. If we stop aiding Israel, they'll have to start treating palestinains as humans.

Shipud,

The fact is that we give them money. More money than anyone else, by a long shot. Maybe we get a few tidbits back from them, but in the end, we lose out because of this "alliance."