Almighty,
They won the championship using a fiscally responsible strategy, and they did it without the trap. New Jersey basically plays soccer on ice, and they play in a cold weather state. Given the choice between the two, I'd rather have league that includes the Tampa Bay Lightning rather than a league that includes the New Jersey Devils.

Amen, brother. As a Red Wings fan who lives in SC, I shelled out a hundred bucks to see them play the Devils at the Meadowlands. Suckiest game I ever saw, I felt robbed. No wonder nobody goes to their games, even when they win the Stanley Cup.

/Suckiest sucks that ever sucked. Gotta go, my weiner kids are listening.

amoricanCrowe
As a novice, I would like to see any city that cannot freeze a pond or lake in their entire state for at least one day a year eliminated from the league.

I concur, except it's possible that the NHL could work in some of the really, really large southern markets where there are enough people to make a go of pro hockey, i.e. Los Angeles.

The NHL is obsessed with trying to become a national American sport, and by now it should recognize that it's not going to work right now. If it is ever going to work, the NHL should wait for local grassroots interest in the sport to take hold before venturing into that city with a pro franchise, not trying to build grassroots interest by putting a pro team there. Being regional doesn't mean you can't be successful - look at the obscene amounts of money that NASCAR makes, and you don't see them trying to build racetracks in Edmonton or Seattle or Minnesota.

The NHL owners claim to have lost something like $280 million in aggregate, and that's why they say they're locking out the players. Sure, years of signing ludicrously large contracts have something to do with it, but playing pro hockey in front of empty arenas in cities where hockey ranks somewhere between synchronized swimming and cockroach racing in terms of interest. I'm convinced that NHL hockey would do better in a ridiculously small hockey market like Saskatoon or Thunder Bay or Anchorage than in a medium-sized non-hockey market like Raleigh or Nashville.

inputdownable

While I agree with your statement too keep it simple, we are talking about two extrememly self-centered, ignorant juggernauts. To expect the league and players union to keep it simple would be like expecting Hitler to marry a jew.

/thread over.. Godwin'd.....

PeaSouper
look at the obscene amounts of money that NASCAR makes, and you don't see them trying to build racetracks in Edmonton or Seattle or Minnesota

Uh... actually yea, they did try to build a track outside of Seattle. Local gov't killed it.

The NHL should sell the rights to their negotiations to ESPN.

They'd probably get better ratings than their suckyass hockey games.

Almighty

I think you may have taken my comments a little too much to heart. Like I said in some earlier posts, I don't know much about hockey per se, but believe I'd be a fan if there was a team near me (why does Seattle NOT have an NHL team?)

I guess I was driving more towards the elimination of some of the great stalwart cities on yesteryear (read: the Canadian teams) and were replaced by towns that have no tradition of even PLAYING hockey. You're points about TB are spot on, as last season, I watched the Finals with a friend who was a HUGE Flames fan and died a hideous death when Tampa Farking Bay won it (his words)

/not slamming hockey
//DEFINITELY not an 'elitist'

PeaSouper,

But yeah I agree with you on your last point regarding markets.

Almighty:

They won the championship using a fiscally responsible strategy, and they did it without the trap. New Jersey basically plays soccer on ice, and they play in a cold weather state. Given the choice between the two, I'd rather have league that includes the Tampa Bay Lightning rather than a league that includes the New Jersey Devils


What a load of bullshiat. It's you know nothing hockey fans that regurgitate shiat you read or crap you hear that's ruining hockey. The Devils haven't played the trap since 95. I'm not saying they don't employ it ever, because every team in the league uses the trap at some time or another when protecting a lead in the 3rd period. Even the Lightning. Ask Anderychuk. When the Devils won the cup in 2000 guess which team lead the league in scroring? Not the Wings, Avs or Lightning, but the Devils. How could that be if they just trapped all game long.
That trap argument is so old, get over it.

Region should play absolutely no role in where a Hockey team can play. I LOVE the fact that we have Hockey in Tampa and I also love the fact that my team won it all. Who cares where a team plays? Tampa made money. They are unlike the Rangers (who grossley overspend on players who have no concept of a team)in many respects. I just hate the fact that the Owners are the ones who sign the contracts. Can't afford Jagr? Don't F-N pay him then. Let him go somewhere else and wallow in mediocrity. If my boss offers me a 50k a year and the guy across the street offers me 60k is it really my fault for going where I am paid the best? The owners are solely to blame. F them. F them in their stupid asses.

yes, Duke has a hockey team. As does pretty much every college you can think of, most likely.

http://www.dukehockey.com/

people making more then 50 grand a year do not need unions

any people

scotto
Uh... actually yea, they did try to build a track outside of Seattle. Local gov't killed it.

I stand corrected. I still think my point stands, though, that NASCAR has remained successful by concentrating on its core markets while cautiously expanding into emerging stock car racing markets.

Almighty
Olympic sized rinks are not likely to happen in North America, because most of the rinks are already built, and increasing the size of the floor would mean taking out a couple of rows of your most profitable seats.

Right. So increase the ticket price for the remaining 'rinkside' section seats.

As well, even if it wasn't made retro-active, it could at least be a rule going forward. That way different teams could actually play on different sized rinks. Might give new meanign to the term 'home ice advantage'.

Also, it would probably adversely affect the seating arrangements for basketball games in those arenas.

I'm guessing they could overcome it.

That being said, I don't think that the size of the ice is really the problem in North American hockey. Germany proved in the 2002 Olympics that it's possible to play and win with a boring, trap-style game even on the larger ice surface.

Hmmm... I thought Canada won the 2002 Olympics? ;)

Regardless, even if a team managed to play a trap game (I can't say, as I don't remember how Germany played), the larger ice makes it much harder, and virtually impossible against a team with any kind of speed.

It is really hard to feel sympathy for either group, the players or the owners.

Millionaires playing a game/working for multi-millionaires, and there is not one iota of trust or good-will between the two groups.

But, if the players union is so hell bent on "No salary cap" there may not be a 2005-2006 season either. But, if the owners are so hell bent on "Salary cap" there may not be a 2005-2006 season either.


Broktun

Broktun:

But, if the players union is so hell bent on "No salary cap" there may not be a 2005-2006 season either. But, if the owners are so hell bent on "Salary cap" there may not be a 2005-2006 season either.


I predict that if today's session fails then the owners will break the union and they will get their cap. I'm not saying that is right or wrong, just what I feel will happen.

Almighty:

While Bettman may have tried to expand too rapidly, I don't think Tampa Bay can be blamed for the downfall of hockey. In fact, Tampa Bay embodies everything that was right with the game.

These two points, I agree with. Bettman tried so hard to make the game a hit in the sunbelt, he expanded too rapidly. Unfortunately, you can't say that the last 6 or 8 teams in the league should be removed. Hockey is surprisingly very big in Dallas. I worked at Lockheed Martin, and I was stunned at the amount of Stars fans there. I don't think much needs to be said about the success of Tampa either. They do embody all that is right with the game, and show that a small market team can thrive. Same thing with Calgary.



New Jersey basically plays soccer on ice, and they play in a cold weather state. Given the choice between the two, I'd rather have league that includes the Tampa Bay Lightning rather than a league that includes the New Jersey Devils.

And this statement is either based on jealously, or an uninformed, aged opinion. Yes, Jacques Lemaire brought "The Trap" to the forefront, and made every hockey fan outside of Montreal and New Jersey develop a Yankees-like resentment for the team. However, at the time, Scotty Bowman was using the same theories in Detroit, only it was called "The Left Wing Lock". And Lemaire learned the system from...

Les Habitants. They played a very defensive system when he was a player, and that team, not surprisingly, won many, many Cups from it.

The Devils abandoned the trap once Lemaire was gone. They play most of their games against the Eastern Conference, a conference stacked with huge teams and punishing hitters. You rarely see high scoring games coming out of the East, although a lot of that is due to the fact that the Western Conference is a bunch of sunscreen wearin' pansies. :-P

supamaki:

What a load of bullshiat. It's you know nothing hockey fans that regurgitate shiat you read or crap you hear that's ruining hockey. The Devils haven't played the trap since 95.

Hi,
I'm not regurgitating anything. I watch hockey. I watch a ton of hockey. I've seen the Devils play, and while they may no longer play the exact same style they did in 1995, they are still one of the most boring teams in hockey.

I'm not trying to say the Devils are solely to blame here. The Devils found a great system and won a shiatload of games with it. The problem is that everyone in the league started using it, and now every team plays some form of the trap most of the game. It's not just to protect leads either. Teams will play the trap the entire time their third and fourth lines are on the ice.

All that being said though, it's not the Devils' fault. The fault is entirely with the league for not recognizing, or ignoring, the impact that a widespread adoption of that system has had on the entertainment value of the game.

PeaSouper
I stand corrected. I still think my point stands, though, that NASCAR has remained successful by concentrating on its core markets while cautiously expanding into emerging stock car racing markets.

I'm not so sure about that. NASCAR is getting greedy, cutting races at smaller venues and alienating LOTS of fans. I do get your point and agree to a degree, it's just that I don't know that NASCAR's business model is anywhere near comparable to other professional sports. When was the last time you saw a NFL player with an advert plastered across his ass?

Almighty:

and while they may no longer play the exact same style they did in 1995, they are still one of the most boring teams in hockey.


Are you kidding. Do you remember the "A" line? Remember Mogilny? Just because they have a core of skilled defensemen and preach defense first does not make them boring. I'm sorry if winning bores you, 2000 and 2003 Stanley Cup Champions has a sweet ring to it.

they need a farking cap.

To me having a shootout just to make sure someone wins is stupid. I don't mind it if two teams battle it out for a tie. Some of the best games I've ever watched have been ties.

Shootouts have no place in hockey. They're not part of the game.

I need a cap. It's cold outside.

Flan:

You rarely see high scoring games coming out of the East, although a lot of that is due to the fact that the Western Conference is a bunch of sunscreen wearin' pansies. :-P

Maybe it's because my team is in the Western Conference that I prefer the finesse game to the clutch and grab hitting and not scoring game. Of course, both conferences are primarily clutch and grab these days. In the end, the thing that might make hockey the most exciting is if the NHL would just enforce their own damn rulebook, particularly in regard to clutching and grabbing.

Kazama Smokers
Save the IceCats

seconded. the centrum is ripe for a WHA team don't you think?

2005-02-04 01:35:49 PM Sirjohnfalstaff

To me having a shootout just to make sure someone wins is stupid. I don't mind it if two teams battle it out for a tie. Some of the best games I've ever watched have been ties.

Shootouts have no place in hockey. They're not part of the game.

I agree. Hockey is a TEAM sport. How does it make sense that two players (the shooter and the goalie) determine the outcome of a TEAM game? It would be like putting a running back and a linebacker on the field after a NFL game tie to determine the outcome. Stupid. It's okay for minor leagues though... nobody really cares enough about them.

Note that even in the minors they don't use shootouts in the playoffs. That should tell you something.

scotto

I need a cap. It's cold outside.

38 seconds. touche.

God this is good news, at this moment anyway. I hope it isn't dashed.

Hockey is the best sport ever invented. Seriously, if you have never strapped a pair of skates (ice or roller) on your feet and gone flying out on a rink or a pond you really don't know what you are missing. For me and my friends it is what I imagine surfers feel (you know that whole surfer zen stuff) As for being a skill - well no other sport requires you to learn the artform of an entirely different form of motion before you even begin to learn the game itself. The people who excell at hockey (not me by a long shot, however I am no noob either) are the most skilled athletes in the world.

I think to make the game better they should make offsides the center line. We played like that for years (due to a small rink) and it made it a joy. It gave us more room to set up the play and there was hardly any cherry picking. You should also eliminate icing and allow players to check a person about to receive a pass if it is over more than two lines. I think however that keeping track of that would be next to impossible.

I hope to see the Flyers play this season - saturday afternoons haven't been the same without them.

/go eagles
//flyers, mario lemieux and dallas stars fan
///thrilled when hitch came to the flyers
////hockey is the only sport that I can watch two teams I don't care about.

You do know that the Owners could impose their own salary cap. No "real" cap, mind you, but a signed agreement between owners that when all of their currently signed player contracts are up they could say, "Ok guys we cannot afford to have more than 40 million in salaries." If they stuck to their guns they could afford to run their league without ever having to be bothered by negotiating with the NHLPA. Why do the players even have to approve of anything? They are the employees. The owners set the bar and the players either play ball, so to speak, or play in another country. Most of the players would return, in my opinion.

willdanger,

You were waiting for that, I know. I hate to disappoint.

From a post by Almighty:

"It's that kind of elitism that turns a lot of American fans from hockey. It's kind of funny that people deride Americans for not caring about hockey, but then say that if they live in a warm climate, they shouldn't be ALLOWED to like hockey. It's asinine.

While Bettman may have tried to expand too rapidly, I don't think Tampa Bay can be blamed for the downfall of hockey. In fact, Tampa Bay embodies everything that was right with the game. They won the championship using a fiscally responsible strategy, and they did it without the trap. New Jersey basically plays soccer on ice, and they play in a cold weather state. Given the choice between the two, I'd rather have league that includes the Tampa Bay Lightning rather than a league that includes the New Jersey Devils."

Amen, and amen. NHL games aren't played outdoors anyway, so what does the climate matter? Well, at least, not played outdoors, except for that one game last year, but anyway...

And the trap is one of the reasons why so many Eastern Conference teams SUCK. I'd rather watch soccer than two teams playing trap defenses.

Geeker026: ////hockey is the only sport that I can watch two teams I don't care about.

Someone once said (Pierre MacGuire I think) that if you only watch your home team's games, then you are not a hockey fan, you're just a fan of your home team.

Geeker026
...hockey is the only sport that I can watch two teams I don't care about.

And that, my friends, is why hockey is great.

Almighty, just taking a knock on your 'Lanche and the other Western teams. It's true the West is a finesse game, and while clutching and grabbing is a nusiance, I think there's a lot more that can be done to open up the game. It all starts from the top... You have so many teams, the talent pool is shallow. So now you give roster spots to goons who can barely hold a stick, and they have no clue how to play defense. Instead, they grab. That frustrates your Forsberg kinds of guys who can't play their style, and my Scott Stevens kinds of guys who get a bad name because they're skilled, strong defensemen.

I still think if the rinks were opened up, you remove a linesman, kill Jean sebastian Guigere and his liferaft-sized goalie pads, fix the icing/two line pass rules, and you'll have a quicker game and more scoring.

Although, I guess I should just hope the game returns in ANY form. Personally, I'd much rather watch the worst, slowest hockey game in the world than have to sit through this March Madness crap again...

ForrestRump

Why do the players even have to approve of anything? They are the employees. The owners set the bar and the players either play ball, so to speak, or play in another country.

I totally agree.

Bah. I figured it was over a long time ago. We're just dragging out the inevitable now. The owners and the players both a collection of jackasses. The owners will win out, but it will be a pyrrhic victory when they see how much damage has been done.

"A plague on both your houses!" Start your next negotiation with firing Bettman and Goodenow.

Re: Larger ice surface. Don't get too exited about an international size rink. Sure, the hockey we see in the Olympics is tremendous, but it's also being played by all-star teams. Once you get further down the depth chart...not so good. Check out a European league game if you can. It's not what you saw at the Olympics I assure you.

Flan:

Les Habitants. They played a very defensive system when he was a player, and that team, not surprisingly, won many, many Cups from it.

The system the late-seventies Habs used was FAR from a neutral-zone trap. They forechecked hard with all of their forwards and often even brought one of the big three (Robinson, Lapointe, Savard) into the rush.

The Devils were totally different. Get a lead. Dump in. Use one forchecker. Clog up the neutral zone with 4 guys. Not pretty, but it worked.

misterbling
Amen, and amen. NHL games aren't played outdoors anyway, so what does the climate matter? Well, at least, not played outdoors, except for that one game last year, but anyway...

Because ice plants use more electricity in warmer climates, making hockey in warmer climates more expensive for amateurs and kids to play, which means fewer people can afford to play it. And, generally speaking, the fewer people that are familiar with a sport, the less grassroots interest there is in the sport. There's a reason that soccer is the most popular sport in the world - all you need is a friggin ball. It's nearly universally accessible.

I give a damn!

Some really cogent comments in this thread. I feel that I have something to contribute here...

sob-waaaaahhhh-sob-waaaaaahhhh-sob-just want-sob-Canucks-sob-waaaaahhhhhh

Special J,

Bah. I figured it was over a long time ago. We're just dragging out the inevitable now. The owners and the players both a collection of jackasses. The owners will win out, but it will be a pyrrhic victory when they see how much damage has been done.

You win the edumacation award for incorporating 'pyrrhic victory' into a sentence. Extra points for using it correctly and also spelling it right.

Here's your trophy, not like it's being used for anything else these days:

KazamaSmokers... don't worry Worcester will get another AHL team. They'll just steal one from another city. That's what you guys did to Springfield, MA. Now, I hear you're setting your sights on Portland, MA.

Said it before and I'll say it again. I don't care if they cancel this season and next, as long as they have serious const controls by the time the league starts up again.

That said, I don't care if the regular season's only 10 games long, or they go straight to the playoffs, I want Hockey as soon as there's a cap, linkage, etc.

////hockey is the only sport that I can watch two teams I don't care about.

For most of Bettman's target audience, that just isn't the case. There's no tradition to the sport of hockey, and no real passion for the game in the new markets that can compare with the tradition of the old markets.

I could watch two teams that I don't care about with hockey, but it's getting to the point where I can't with the NHL. Nashville vs. Atlanta? Columbus vs. Florida? Anaheim vs. Carolina? You might have to pay me to watch those ones. Bettman is just killing the game.

You want to know why people in the South don't like hockey? Look at the crap that Bettman foisted on them... the NHL is the reason why the NHL sucks, and will continue to suck in the new markets. And Tampa Bay only has fans because they won... just like the Bucs in the NFL - once the fair weather is over, they'll turn on the Lightning. Gotten rid of Chucky yet, Bucs fans?

For alot of us living above the Bush belt / Hockey belt, in states that have ice and snow 6 months a year, these times are harsh on us.

Like many of you all, I could look at my watch and remind to myself, "Hey the Wings are playing the 'Lanche tonight, " and get a little fluttered. Whe 7:30 ran around, the game started and for 2 and a half hours you could feel like you were part of something. My big screen TV I specifically bought for getting sucked in. Digital Cable so I could watch more hockey, 10 games a night sometimes. Have some games on in the background while I worked in the woodshop. Seeing who got the big hit. I miss all that stuff, man!! This is the worst part of this deal, when Winter is at its worst and there is nothing. Silence. Football. Great. College basketball? No. Pro ball? Maybe. I am in PAIN. My TV collects dust now. I have a picture of Bettman on my wall with darts on it. I don't care if it's not all his fault, but I need a scapegoat. He fits. Will someone please return hockey to us!!!!

I also would like to say I am furious for what's come about to all this, inflated salaries for chumps like Bobby Holik, Jaromir Jagr, Sergei Fedorov, Martin LaPointe, and others. It's a problem and I hope they fix it.

Yeah, let's have the playoffs, anyway. Who needs the regular season? Just pretend like they played it, eliminate the Rangers and the Coyotes... and we'd be none the wiser.

scotto: Here's your trophy, not like it's being used for anything else these days

Thank you, I'm honoured, I think.

Flarn

Ok why do baseball and basketball players deserve to make ungodly amounts of money but hockey players dont? I think hockey is a far more dangerous sport than both of those and the players should be compensated accordingly and conforming with other major league sports.

Baseball and basketball salaries are larger in part due to revenue generated from TV contracts. Hockey's TV contract pales in comparison, which require teams to rely more heavily on ticket sales and revenue generated by team related paraphernalia.

Tinklesthecat
Like many of you all, I could look at my watch and remind to myself, "Hey the Wings are playing the 'Lanche tonight, " and get a little fluttered. Whe 7:30 ran around, the game started and for 2 and a half hours you could feel like you were part of something. My big screen TV I specifically bought for getting sucked in. Digital Cable so I could watch more hockey, 10 games a night sometimes. Have some games on in the background while I worked in the woodshop. Seeing who got the big hit. I miss all that stuff, man!! This is the worst part of this deal, when Winter is at its worst and there is nothing. Silence. Football. Great. College basketball? No. Pro ball? Maybe. I am in PAIN. My TV collects dust now. I have a picture of Bettman on my wall with darts on it. I don't care if it's not all his fault, but I need a scapegoat. He fits. Will someone please return hockey to us!!!!


Dude, no fair, you made me cry. Seriously. This is killing me... and I live in a place you can go to the beach 9 months out of the year.

Would have been a a lot of good games tomorrow,q too... LA @ Montreal, NJ @ Philadelphia, Detroit @ Calgary...

tinklesthecat:

Whe 7:30 ran around, the game started and for 2 and a half hours you could feel like you were part of something


I still look at the clock at 7:30 and think "I should be watching hockey right now"