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(MSNBC)   Iraq elections "a resounding success." You submitted this with a red-and-blue state headline   (msnbc.msn.com) divider line 1432
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15272 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Jan 2005 at 3:45 PM (9 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2005-01-30 09:35:31 PM
SiON42X: You think that was all the nerve agent left in all of Iraq?

Nerve agent has a shelf life of 6 months. The stuff we did find was more than 10 years old; it was harmless.

Oh, and we gave it to him.
 
2005-01-30 09:35:58 PM
Don't the Iraqis realize they are under an illegal US occupation? For the love of God, stop dancing, damn you! You are miserable! You are miserable and you hate America!

 
2005-01-30 09:36:40 PM
SiON42X:

If it was Saddam's, it proves that he HAS owned chemical agents, he HAS been testing and producing them, and that makes him a threat.

We already know he owned them in the past. But finding that eyedropper of sarin doesn't prove anything other than what
we already knew.

In fact, the lack of _any_ other evidence of recent chem/bio
weapons programs on the part if Iraq leads to the conclusion
that there was little or no threat.
 
2005-01-30 09:37:21 PM
"Calling the election a success is very premature."


No, calling Iraqi Democracy a success at this point is very premature. From all estimates, it sounds as if the turnout was unexpectedly high. If it is found, as it looks, that there was no rampant fraud, ballot stacking, etc., then there's no doubt that the elections themselves were indeed a resounding success.

We'll know for sure in a few days. Hopefully :)
 
2005-01-30 09:39:41 PM
BeerNut:

2. Saddam kicked weapons inspectors out of Iraq.

5. Saddam refuses to allow weapons inspectors back into the country.


No, he didn't.
 
2005-01-30 09:40:04 PM
*sigh*

this is why liberals were so down when bush was re-elected. the intolerance and smugness of the right is incredible.

the argument for seccession/emmigration is becoming more and more attractive every day. If I did not harbor love for this country and care for its people, I would have left years ago. As weird as we are, at least most liberals don't treat their countrymen like traitors. At least we don't shove our ideas down other's throats. At least we listen before we start flaming others. At least most of the time we live up to what we believe.
 
2005-01-30 09:40:14 PM
Prospero424:

No, calling Iraqi Democracy a success at this point is very premature. From all estimates, it sounds as if the turnout was unexpectedly high. If it is found, as it looks, that there was no rampant fraud, ballot stacking, etc., then there's no doubt that the elections themselves were indeed a resounding success.


As it was put earlier, the balloting was a success. The election still has a ways to go before completion and confirmation.

/just want people to be realistic rather than accepting W's BS
 
2005-01-30 09:40:44 PM
SiON42X: If we found an eyedropper, we're sure to find more.


But we aren't going to. Why? Because we stopped looking! And WHY do you think we stopped looking? Because we didn't find the WMDs we set out to find despite years and many $$ spent on an exhaustive search. This is not some liberal propaganda, this is straight from the Bush Administration.

We didn't find the massive stockpiles. Yes, Saddam had WMDs. Hell, I'm sure he wished he had them again. But he was not the immediate threat the Chimp Administration made him out to be. There were no massive stockpiles. There were no mobile labs. Period.
 
2005-01-30 09:41:42 PM
cthu1hu

Yes he did. After the bogus weapons declaration he made to the United Nations he did not allow inspectors back into the country.
 
2005-01-30 09:42:18 PM
 
2005-01-30 09:42:30 PM
Swindmill

I understand where you're coming from, I just think it's foolish to be over-pessimistic just as it's foolish to be over-optimistic.
 
2005-01-30 09:42:30 PM
did not...
 
2005-01-30 09:43:19 PM
BeerNut:

2005-01-30 09:41:42 PM BeerNut

cthu1hu

Yes he did. After the bogus weapons declaration he made to the United Nations he did not allow inspectors back into the country.


nuh uh
 
2005-01-30 09:43:52 PM
So you libs want a perfect election with 100% turnout huh?

If only liberals had such high standards for success in their own domestic programs like education, social security, welfare, the war on poverty, crime, etc.
 
2005-01-30 09:43:59 PM
bbcrackmonkey:

Don't the Iraqis realize they are under an illegal US occupation? For the love of God, stop dancing, damn you! You are miserable! You are miserable and you hate America!

You know that part in Fahrenheit 9/11 that showed kids flying kites and Iraqis going about their everyday lives before the invasion?

You remember Republicans claiming that Moore was trying to paint a rosie picture of Iraq when in fact they lived under strict control of a mad man?

Guess what? Your guilty of the same thing. Dont you feel dirty knowing you use the same tactics as Moore.
 
2005-01-30 09:44:14 PM
And, since, SiON42X has pulled the Neocon Bait and Switch, I shall now point this out:

We went in to get WMD. No mention of liberation came until..


(wait for it....)


...it looked like we weren't going to find any WMD. Then we went in to liberate Iraq from the clutches of a dictator.

You can call me a moron, I can deal with that. But being a red state lemming idiot, who SWIMS in the Kool-Aid? That's gotta be rough. Good luck with that blind follower thing, buy parachutes just in case you hit a cliff.

Oh, there's a compiled list of countries under the grip of dictators out there somewhere. Using the "liberation" line of thinking, we better get crackin', 'cause that's a loooooong list.
 
2005-01-30 09:45:15 PM
/just want people to be realistic rather than accepting W's BS

More than fair.

/holds his giant foam finger of frivolity in careful anticiption.
 
2005-01-30 09:45:28 PM
You need to read this article, SiON42X

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2129-2005Jan11.html

It's over, dude. There were none. Stick to the new by-line "freedom is on the march!". Not that anyone believes neo-con Republicans actually give a fig about some folks in a 3rd world country desert 6000 miles away. But it's what Bush is using now so you had better go with it.

At least Blair tries to do right-

"I can apologize for the information that turned out to be wrong," Blair said. "But I can't, sincerely at least, apologize for removing Saddam."

Heck, if Bush did that... well, I don't have to worry about it. He has never made any mistakes. Just ask him.
 
2005-01-30 09:45:53 PM
lexslamman:

the argument for seccession/emmigration is becoming more and more attractive every day.


i'm sure that hundreds of thousands of the left wing nut jobs who promised to leave the country if bush was re-elected agree with you and have already left. maybe only tens of thousands. i'm not sure.

/still laughing hysterically
 
2005-01-30 09:47:04 PM
Wow, I could only make it 3 entries into this before I realized it would be an amazing waste of farking time listening to you ass clowns make a complete ass of yourselves.

Fark it, I am done with the political flamewar bullshiat!!


Nice job Buckshot.!! Arse.
 
2005-01-30 09:47:28 PM
I'll bet WMD are a big issue in the Iraqi election. This lady cares a whole lot about sarin gas and stuff. I bet she thinks Bush is stupid.

 
2005-01-30 09:48:33 PM
RealFarknMcCoy2:

Please, dont ever come back to this country, your not wanted.
Holy shiat I feel sorry for the aussies that have been unfortunate enough to encounter you.
 
2005-01-30 09:48:50 PM
bbcrackmonkey:

bbcrackmonkey

Don't the Iraqis realize they are under an illegal US occupation? For the love of God, stop dancing, damn you! You are miserable! You are miserable and you hate America!



Too funny!

I'm not sure I get this argument that the US can't possibly be doing anything good in Iraq because there are other tyrannies where we're not invading, or maybe they're even our "allies."

Haven't you people ever played "Risk"? Don't you realize how and why people become allies, and how fast that changes?
Really, the only conclusion from this dipshiat argument is:
1. The Iraqis who think they have hope are deluded
2. We should invade all tyrannies if we're going to just go after a couple (with the paradoxical caveat that we shouldn't have invaded them in the first place)
3. We shouldn't stick our nose in anyone's business at all, and just let the UN (ha ha) or someone sort things out, and then we can read about how hopeless things are in some magazine, and "why doesn't America help?"
 
2005-01-30 09:48:52 PM
uclajd: So you libs want a perfect election with 100% turnout huh?

Who are you debating? Pulling things no one said out of thin air does not help your case.
 
2005-01-30 09:49:03 PM
uclajd:

2005-01-30 09:43:52 PM uclajd [TotalFark]

So you libs want a perfect election with 100% turnout huh?


?

Democracy means majority rule and minority rights. Democracy is not defined by turnout. We can't establish that in a day. You can question whether or not Iraq is headed in that direction.

My chief concern is that "win situation" is so completely undefined. I think everybody agrees that today's successful vote does not constitute a win situation as no one expects the troops to come home tomorrow.
 
2005-01-30 09:49:07 PM
re: WMD's

There was nothing serious, and you had to know that in advance because no one, not even the American army, would be stupid enough to invade a country already armed with even a rudimentary nuclear device.
That's why you invaded, there was nothing to worry about, and you knew it. You seriously suggest the CIA doesn't know these things with their two hundred or so spy satellites? Ever heard of energy signatures? A reality of war in the nuclear age.
Elementary. This isn't hard stuff.
Engage brains...
 
2005-01-30 09:49:13 PM

If you use that "commone sense" of yours, you'd realize that people showing up to vote does not equal a successful democracy, nor does it legitimize the war.


Of course not, but it's a great step. It's nice to see that those people went and DID something for themselves. What else could be at the core of a "successful" democracy than the will of the people?? They went out and voted despite terror threats and despite the presumption that they wouldn't. Isn't that something great to cheer about? The war already happened, now all that's left is the road ahead.

Sorry, but sometimes it really seems like the (vehemently) anti-war crowd want Iraq to turn into a steaming poophole for some reason, rather than to think positively. That's the only thing that confuses me about the arguing here. If you're unwilling to take a positive at face value, then you're no different from the other side who do the same thing to you. That's an example of the two-sided coin I was referring to.

Also, if Iraq prospers in the long run, no matter whether it upsets you or not, that pretty well does legitimize the war, doesn't it? Maybe I'm off on that part. But that sounds like a win to me? I was against the war all along because I had no delusions that Bush was being honest or that the war would have a positive outcome. I'm open to changing my mind completely if I'm proven wrong, which I'm perfectly willing to be. It would be GOOD to be wrong on that. And that's the "common sense" part. I don't need political parties to define "positive outcome" or "war justification" or anything else for me. I can make up my own mind, and clearly "democracy in iraq" with a "resounding success" on a vote is a REALLY good thing.
 
2005-01-30 09:49:26 PM
I know I'm a bit late but the fire still seems to be burning.

Bush gets a C+ for implementing democracy in Iraq. Too many people died (US and Iraqi), but in the end people showed up to vote. The country is on a golden path. Congratulations Bush & Co.

Of course he still receives an F for the entire Iraq operation - our rationale was WMDs
// Democracy grade largely influenced by Abu Ghraib
// Fark Bush.
 
2005-01-30 09:50:38 PM
uclajd:

2005-01-30 09:14:12 PM uclajd [TotalFark]

consdubya

Well, since you guys are such geo-political geniuses, why dont you enlighten us freedom hating liberals as how to solve these problems:

1) The Kurds - Will they be given their own homeland in the North of Iraq, which is what they have been fighting for the last 20+ years?

2) Shia Fundamentalism - How will iraq handle the masses of Iran-Style fundies that want to turn Iraq into a theocracy?

3) Ongoing Security fears - What makes you think the insurgency attacks will stop? Why would they stop?

Please rightwingers, do tell us what will solve these problems.

Yeah, blowing shiat up (or doing nothing, like liberals and paleocons prefer) is a much more efficacious outlet for grievances and anger than voting.

Awaiting your perfect solution to the world's problems...




Errrr. Ummmmm. Are you really that stupid or are you just pretending to avoid answering my question?

I do not know the solutions to these problems, my only point was that elections will not solve them.

I was asking you, as you seem to believe that successful elections will solve all problems and Iraq will be completely stable secure and safe.

So yeah, any ideas?
 
2005-01-30 09:52:20 PM
Prospero424:

I understand where you're coming from, I just think it's foolish to be over-pessimistic just as it's foolish to be over-optimistic.


I don't think I'm being over-pessimistic. If we can overthrow a dictator in the Middle-East, occupy the country, set up an election for them, and be successful in establishing a democracy, it would defy history and logic. Again, I think I'm being realistic.
 
2005-01-30 09:53:11 PM
lexslamman

this is why liberals were so down when bush was re-elected. the intolerance and smugness of the right is incredible.

OMG, you guys have been poor sports since 2000, have railed about how the neocons are ruining the world, incessantly shouting "no WMD!" and every imaginable "Bush is a monkey" perjorative for four years, the Christian right is dangerous, Bush lied kids died, even protesting the inaugural for God's sake (again, apparently protesting democracy, LOL). You've railed against this war as a sham and not worth it.

So please excuse us after we see the Democracy Dance and purple fingers being waved in joy, if just once we say,

"We told you so."

If that's intolerant and smug, so be it.
 
2005-01-30 09:53:43 PM
hal9k: The country is on a golden path. Congratulations Bush & Co.

Nah man, thank the troops. They are the ones who are sacrificing their lives for Iraq, not Bush and Co.
 
2005-01-30 09:53:50 PM
GodsRightHandGimp

Yeah I feel so stupid for being just like Michael Moore. I'm so dishonest. In actuality, I painted a rosy picture of Iraq but in fact nothing historic happened today and really everyone who is seen crying was just sad because they hate Bush.

"The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not "insurgents" or "terrorists" or "The Enemy." They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow -- and they will win. Get it, Mr. Bush?"
- Michael Moore, April 14th, 2004, in response to the lynchings of American contractors in Fallujah
 
2005-01-30 09:54:42 PM
Now that we're done with Iraq, when do we invade North Korea?
 
2005-01-30 09:55:34 PM
Steve French, "energy signatures"? Do they not shield their warheads in the Middle East?

"Muhammed, you sure look radiant today!"

And since when does sarin emit an "energy signature"? Anthrax?

But you're a tool, and so I digress.
 
2005-01-30 09:56:59 PM
I guess Barbara Boxer isn't the only asshat that hasn't read this...

JOINT RESOLUTION
To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.
Whereas in 1990 in response to Iraq's war of aggression against and illegal occupation of Kuwait, the United States forged a coalition of nations to liberate Kuwait and its people in order to defend the national security of the United States and enforce United Nations Security Council resolutions relating to Iraq;

Whereas after the liberation of Kuwait in 1991, Iraq entered into a United Nations sponsored cease-fire agreement pursuant to which Iraq unequivocally agreed, among other things, to eliminate its nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons programs and the means to deliver and develop them, and to end its support for international terrorism;

Whereas the efforts of international weapons inspectors, United States intelligence agencies, and Iraqi defectors led to the discovery that Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and a large scale biological weapons program, and that Iraq had an advanced nuclear weapons development program that was much closer to producing a nuclear weapon than intelligence reporting had previously indicated;

Whereas Iraq, in direct and flagrant violation of the cease-fire, attempted to thwart the efforts of weapons inspectors to identify and destroy Iraq's weapons of mass destruction stockpiles and development capabilities, which finally resulted in the withdrawal of inspectors from Iraq on October 31, 1998;

Whereas in Public Law 105-235 (August 14, 1998), Congress concluded that Iraq's continuing weapons of mass destruction programs threatened vital United States interests and international peace and security, declared Iraq to be in `material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations' and urged the President `to take appropriate action, in accordance with the Constitution and relevant laws of the United States, to bring Iraq into compliance with its international obligations';

Whereas Iraq both poses a continuing threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region and remains in material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations by, among other things, continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability, and supporting and harboring terrorist organizations; Whereas Iraq persists in violating resolution of the United Nations Security Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression of its civilian population thereby threatening international peace and security in the region, by refusing to release, repatriate, or account for non-Iraqi citizens wrongfully detained by Iraq, including an American serviceman, and by failing to return property wrongfully seized by Iraq from Kuwait;

Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people; Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its continuing hostility toward, and willingness to attack, the United States, including by attempting in 1993 to assassinate former President Bush and by firing on many thousands of occasions on United States and Coalition Armed Forces engaged in enforcing the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council;

/and so on. Read the entire resolution here... http://www.yourcongress.com/ViewArticle.asp?article_id=2686
 
2005-01-30 09:57:00 PM
enormousjuan is correct
 
2005-01-30 09:59:18 PM
nerfball

Cool JFK quote, especially the part about:

"--a struggle against the common enemies of man: tyranny, poverty, disease and war itself."

I'm glad to see that Bush has signed on for the first one, though not the other three.
 
2005-01-30 09:59:23 PM
BeerNut:

Yes he did. After the bogus weapons declaration he made to the United Nations he did not allow inspectors back into the country.

Saddam DID NOT kick the inspectors out. This is an untruth similar to Bush's claim that he had satellite photos of Saddam massing troops at Saudi Arabia's border ready to invade and the lie about Iraqi troops taking babies out of incubators.
 
2005-01-30 09:59:28 PM
I do love it when I am called a nutjob, especially when the person who says it bases it on the fact that I am admittedly liberal and knows nothing more about me.

When did liberal become a dirty word? How terrible of a thing is it to believe that a government is responsible for the welfare of its people? How bad can it be to expect equal rights extended to all citizens? How terrible can it be to dissent from a government that tries to restrict the free press, constricts the right to protest over grievances, and treats half the population with disdain? What happened to civil political discourse? Do we think that thanks to the anonymity of a computer screen and our fark handles we can treat each other like dirt? Why did the republican party import this kind of behavior into the halls of congress?

to my fellow liberals: today is a great day for Iraq. that is reason to celebrate.

to the conservatives in this board: though this is a great day for Iraq, this is far from mission accomplished. You can ridicule all of us liberals when we are expelled from the country for our dissent. You can celebrate a job-well-done when Iraq is an autonomous and sovereign nation once more.

until then, sit the fark down and shut the fark up.
 
2005-01-30 09:59:33 PM
uclajd:

So please excuse us after we see the Democracy Dance and purple fingers being waved in joy, if just once we say,

"We told you so."

If that's intolerant and smug, so be it.



Can you not register that these elections will mean little difference to the overall problem over there? Lack of security? The Kurds? The Shia's?

In your smugness, can you please tell us how these elections resolved all these problems? Or how they will?

You are a short-sighted simpleton.....
 
2005-01-30 09:59:53 PM
Consdubya:

See my post at 2005-01-30 09:09:24 PM. I was replying to your questions. But I forgot to make clear it was a response to you.


Maybe you should join up with al-Zarqawi. You and that guy seem to have very similar opionions of elections.
 
2005-01-30 10:00:42 PM
There's probably some survivalist whackjobs in the US who have a more serious stockpile of 'WMDs' than Iraq.
You would have to define what you consider to be a WMD, certainly there was nothing in Iraq to concern the army.
How ridiculous do you want to get?
Butter knives?
Yes, fine then, you found some.
Atta boy, Georgie.
 
2005-01-30 10:00:51 PM
yeah it's hard to make domestic programs work when repubs have been waging a 40 year long war to not make them work by:
1. deliberately underfunding them
2. bad mouthing the effectiveness of government to the american people.
3. being deliberately deceitful about the way that gov't programs work.

hmmm...let's see, the effectiveness of liberal programs?

in '66, almost 30% of seniors lived in poverty. then lbj expanded it. now only about 10% of seniors live in poverty.

oh yeah, still waiting for the 101st fighting keyboarders to say they are enlisting. by the way, please volunteer to have your taxes raised too so our military has the funding it needs to liberate all the oppressed people in the world.
 
B82
2005-01-30 10:00:58 PM
Churchy LaFemme

I never said all lefties hope the elections fail, but all people who hope the elections fail are lefties. Maybe they only number a few hundred in the whole country (doubtful) but they are generally louder than the others. Show me some righties talking like the people on DU.

/paleocons don't count
 
2005-01-30 10:01:22 PM
"*sigh*

this is why liberals were so down when bush was re-elected. the intolerance and smugness of the right is incredible.

the argument for seccession/emmigration is becoming more and more attractive every day. If I did not harbor love for this country and care for its people, I would have left years ago. As weird as we are, at least most liberals don't treat their countrymen like traitors. At least we don't shove our ideas down other's throats. At least we listen before we start flaming others. At least most of the time we live up to what we believe."

-lexslamman

WTF are you talking about? I do smell a little bullshait.

Its funny how people think thir own asses dont stink.

/Its sad that i even have to make this clear but i am not a 'conservetive' or 'republican'
 
2005-01-30 10:02:53 PM
I loathe Republicans.
 
2005-01-30 10:03:05 PM
Emo-Bush hates stupid Iraqi elections because they make him sad and remind him of how much he hates his parents. Emo-Bush also hates himself with the deep loathing of a thousand nazis. Happy people make Emo-Bush very sad.



Emo-Bush is gonna go listen to Linkin Park and A Simple Plan now.
 
2005-01-30 10:03:10 PM
So, to break it down: President Bush and his administration lied about the WMD's and Saddam Hussein's involvement with Al Queda in order to sell the war in Iraq to the American public. The public bought it to their satisfaction and, with assets diverted from Ahganistan, the war began. The initial invasion went hunky dory and the Mission was Accomplished. Unfortunatley, plans for the peace were lacking (the US thought we would be greeted as liberators) and an exit strategy was not defined. In the meantime, several members of the coalition of the willing left and American casualties were growing. The weapons investigators were unable to find any WMDs and Saddam's working ties with Al Queda could not be verified, causing some to question the reasoning behind this war. At this point it became a war to get Saddam Hussein and bring democracy to Iraq. And again, many in the American bought it and conveniently dismiss the initial lies that were used to sell the war. George Bush is re-elected with 52% of the electorate voting for him; a self-declared mandate. He gives a speech warning The World that we are now nation builders and we will bring democracy and freedom to The World. People voted in Iraq today and the Neo-Cons are happy because they think that Liberals are upset that more people weren't killed.
 
2005-01-30 10:03:49 PM
bbcrackmonkey:

In actuality, I painted a rosy picture of Iraq but in fact nothing historic happened today and really everyone who is seen crying was just sad because they hate Bush.

You are tying to say with all those pictures that all Iraqis are happy and they have nothing to worry about any more. They are dancing in the streets and celebrating their new found freedom.

Im glad for those people. Its about farking time. But to ignore the fact that Iraq is still a warzone is being untrue to the facts.

Our soldiers will continue to die and so will innocent Iraqis. That is nothing to celebrate.

Once our soldiers are out of that hell hole then we can start sucking each others dicks. OK.
 
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