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(Arizona Star)   Professor says psychic really is conversing with the dead, based on bringing back really meaningful quotations like "I don't walk alone" and being 77 percent accurate on predictions   (dailystar.com) divider line 294
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7539 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Jan 2005 at 7:26 PM (9 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2005-01-17 08:08:50 PM
Yeah, jim90201, I guess my point wasn't surprise at randomly having things in common with someone (i.e., the fact that she was Brazilian and I've lived in Brazil, which was the only parallel), but rather that she would comment on things *about my life* that were correct, and had nothing at all to do with her life - so were not in fact parallels. Sorry if that didn't come across. The fact that she was commenting about my life at all was due to her being an "artist" with a missing social filter, but the fact that she was unerringly correct unnerved me.

/has received lots and lots of inaccurate comments/advice from the bus loonies
 
2005-01-17 08:09:53 PM
ExJerseyGirl

Wow. Any time either my wife or our friend asked specifics like that, the board would scold them and say that they don't like answering nonsensical stuff like that, especially "when will things happen" because "time is a human convention".

That weirded us out too.
 
2005-01-17 08:11:56 PM
I'm seeing a female that was in your life.
She wants me to tell you that she is well.
It was some fatal affliction, wasn't it?
Yeah, I can see a sort of red haze around here (motioning in a wide circle).
Ha, she's asking about her little animal...brownish...dark...maybe light...
Yes, that's the one. She misses the little guy.
She also says "Finally dried off." Does that mean anything to you? I'm sure it will when you get home.
This seems important...she's saying "Don't be afraid." Repeating it like she really wants me to get it to you.
Oops, I'm losing her...she's fading...fading...gone.

That'll be $300. Thank you, come again.
 
2005-01-17 08:13:57 PM
OMFG! I was just thinking every comment just posted in this thread!

How do you explain THAT, skeptics?
 
2005-01-17 08:13:59 PM
McDork, the michael teachings have been pretty thoroughly debunked as an actual psychic thing. I have officially lost any idea of you as a rational being. Seriously.

My guess? Someone in the group had seen it before and was playing a nice little trick on you.
 
2005-01-17 08:15:27 PM
Two thoughts:

1 - How would anyone quanitify % "hit" or "miss" for her kind of qualitative, subjective statements? This seems like a result that is easily swayed by wishful thinking on the part of the evaluator (this means you, Professor).

2 - Even if someone got 100% "hits" it wouldn't prove that psychic ability is real. If you have enough people making wild guesses, then sooner or later, one of them will be correct.
 
2005-01-17 08:16:39 PM
Meursault

If that was a perfect description of the incident it would be hard to explain, but this is an incident relayed by a believer and filtered through many levels, selective memory, wishful thinking etc. Because such incidents are so difficult to verify and so easy to misremember, we ask for controlled situations e.g. where neither party knows what's written on the back of the photograph.

Having seen this done in other situations I think that a likely explaination is that the 'psychic' knew Ginsberg was looking at a photograph and guessed that it was a special occasion. It's common to take photos at special occassions so it's a sensible guess. At first this seems like a miss, but then Ginsberg remembers that it has a valentines message written on the back. After telling the story several times this has mutated into "Dubois saw that there was a valentines message".

Of course, I'm just guessing, but it's an educated guess based on what I've seen of people's reactions to, and recollections of, cold readings.
 
2005-01-17 08:16:42 PM
I have officially lost any idea of you as a rational being. Seriously.

My guess? Someone in the group had seen it before and was playing a nice little trick on you


Uhhh, well "the group" was my wife and our friend who'd never heard of it. Jebus, jump up my ass and grab a ham sammich, why don't ya?

Explain that there, oh wise one. Not I, my wife, nor our friend had ever heard of the book.


/perplexed and incredibly rational
//don't be accusatory, please
 
2005-01-17 08:18:28 PM
Ok, here's a theory: The TRUE phsycics really can see into the future, and they realized that if they reveal their powers, mankind will freak out completely. There will be a huge civil war between the psycics and the non-psycics, because who wants psycics reading their thoughts? Millions would be wiped out.

So the true psycics remain hidden, slowly positioning themselves to take over the world, when the time is right. And making a forture day-trading.
 
2005-01-17 08:19:10 PM
(FYI, I don't consider that a serious theory or even a deep thought.)
 
2005-01-17 08:19:26 PM
Maybe the afterlife is like a giant fark.com discussion board. You can't get a direct connection to the person you want to talk to. But random dead people but in with random nonsense jokes and suggestions - rubbish - and so what the psychic repeats is also rubbish.
 
2005-01-17 08:20:46 PM
McDork and ExJerseyGirl

I highly suggest that you watch Penn and Teller's series Bullshiat! They compare debunking Ouija boards to falling off a log.

And as others have suggested, there is one million American dollars for whoever can prove any sort of pyschic or paranormal abilities. www.randi.org

I think the one thing that does it for me is that no casino bars pyschics. Considering what happens to people they suspect of cheating or card counting, and the amount of money at stake, if the pyschics had any real power they would not be allowed anywhere near these places.
 
2005-01-17 08:22:06 PM
Boy, are you people ignorant.

Science never concludes that something "can't happen"? Sure it does. It does it all the time.

Science isn't "political"? I damn near trashed my whole system laughing.

Let's start with the first one. For years scientists fought the belief that rocks fall from the sky, that ball lightning exists, or that wind shear is real. Every one of those exist. It took years for scientists to accept them.

And apolitical? Really? What about Carl Sagan, the tobacco scientists, the ones who worked under the Soviet Union, or the Nazis-- or even today in China, where paleontological fraud is rampant. Every one of those used science to further their political beliefs.

You want more? Try research. You had better produce what is expected, or your reputation will be shot. Think of the hysteria in the 70's over the return of the Ice Ages.

So yes, Virginia, science is quite susceptible to political pressure & personal agendas.

/child of two scientists, sister of one, wife to another
 
2005-01-17 08:24:41 PM
McDork

We were kids. It was okay for us to ask those questions.

I remember running down and counting the pearls and confirming other answers as well.

As I have gotten older I have stopped thinking about a lot of "this type of stuff." I had several dreams that happened -- one was when my college roomate got into a car accident. I was at home, sleeping, and dreamed being in the car, making a left hand turn, hitting another car, and knowing that everything was okay. And that is what happened.

I also had a dream that predicted a horrible national accident that I told my roommates about and happened two days later.

OMG -- now I am remembering some of the other stuff -- the mind reading with a close friend and with my sister.

I still see auras, but I assume I should get my eyes checked for glasses.

I don't "believe" any of it.
 
2005-01-17 08:25:29 PM
 
2005-01-17 08:25:57 PM
I highly suggest that you watch Penn and Teller's series Bullshiat! They compare debunking Ouija boards to falling off a log.

And as others have suggested, there is one million American dollars for whoever can prove any sort of pyschic or paranormal abilities. www.randi.org


Man, people are t-o-u-c-h-y about anything outside of their realm of belief. Calm down, people. I didn't wallpaper my house in Ouija Boards, I don't light candles and dance in the moonlight wearing clothespins on my ears, I was JUST SAYING...

Ahem.

I even stated in my Boobies, I said that I didn't want to come across as a crackpot, but here's something weird that "none of you were in the room to see but me".

Gawd in heaven, please calm down.
 
2005-01-17 08:28:12 PM
haha!

"initial post" became "boobies"

Haunted filter?

/creepy
 
2005-01-17 08:30:16 PM
rustypouch
I don't believe any of it. I am just saying that when I was a kid we asked very specific questions -- how many pearls on a necklace-- stuff like that, that the kids using the board did not know. Maybe we could accurately guess, though I am not sure how.
 
2005-01-17 08:32:14 PM
ExJerseyGirl

I agree. I don't "believe" it either. Just like if I'd been alive 500 years ago, I would have more than likely doubted that there's a god who wrote this book that if we follow we'll live in hebben with him and his awesome son who died for our sins.
 
2005-01-17 08:33:19 PM
McDork

The fact that "none of you were in the room to see but me", explains this enough for me. you're the only witness (despite your wife and her friend that being), and thus we only have your memeory. and despite what you *know* you believe, that does not make it fact. a memeory is not a photograph, its like wine, it ages over years. very subtle, yet it does, and despite how much you *know* otherwise, the ouija board didn't move itself, it didn't answer your questions and it didn't call itself michael. i'm not questioning your memory, just the way its aged your story.
 
2005-01-17 08:34:13 PM
This is up there with manmade global warming and string theory. Believe it if you want, but there isn't enough direct evidence to conclusively prove any of it.
 
2005-01-17 08:34:50 PM
P.S. Whatever you're smoking, Touchyournose, you need to pass that shiat over here.
 
2005-01-17 08:35:13 PM
Khazar-Khum

Don't be an asshole. When we say "science", we mean the scientific method, not individual scientists. Anyone who claims to be a scientist but dismisses theories backed up by evidence out of hand is a fraud. By the same token, any "scientist" who believes in anything without evidence is a fraud. The existence of frauds does not undermine science, it simply means that people are stupid enough to believe that which has yet to be conclusively proven.

No-one accepted ball lightning and wind shear without a fight because that's the way science works. We take a theory, beat the crap out of it, subject it to every test and experiment we can think of, check if it accounts for accepted phenomena and if it predicts future occurences and then and only then, do we accept it.

No psychic has ever passed a test. No psychic power has ever been able to predict anything. Untill they do, rational people like me are justified in calling those who belive in such things frauds and morons. From your post, you sound like the latter.
 
2005-01-17 08:35:29 PM
jim90291 The fact that "none of you were in the room to see but me", explains this enough for me. you're the only witness (despite your wife and her friend that being), and thus we only have your memeory. and despite what you *know* you believe, that does not make it fact. a memeory is not a photograph, its like wine, it ages over years. very subtle, yet it does, and despite how much you *know* otherwise, the ouija board didn't move itself, it didn't answer your questions and it didn't call itself michael. i'm not questioning your memory, just the way its aged your story.

How about a notebook wherein I wrote everything down verbatin? Yep, that pretty much stands the test of time, don't it?

/starting to sound like a crackpot
 
2005-01-17 08:36:33 PM
Fake psychics go public. Real ones keep it private, and do their best to bury it and pretend it doesn't exist. This is one of those things that while you might think it would be cool if you could do it, it most certainly is not fun to actually be able to do it. Personally, I'm a complete dud on matters psychic, but I've seen how the women in my wife's family behave regarding what they won't talk about to know it's something I'm glad I don't have.
 
2005-01-17 08:38:49 PM
jim90291

That is fine... but it is a pretty bizarre memory to make up. I don't think either of us are trying to prove anything. Just saying that strange stuff happens and is difficult to explain.
 
2005-01-17 08:41:14 PM
McDork

close, but still not good enough. your story has been faulted by the conclusions you've already made up. you want us to believe your same conclusions, you could claim to have this all on videotape and it wouldn't be enough. becuase you are already biased, thus your story is biased.

fact is this: i do not believe that ouija boards contain any paranormal powers. therefore, i do not believe that your ouija board experience means anything more then something that happened by accident, or deliberatly by someone using it (who of us hasn't *pretended* not to move the ouija board marker on purpose?).

you could be making the *whole* thing up, and it wouldn't matter. the fact that you think something happened doesn't mean it did.
 
2005-01-17 08:41:44 PM
Schwartz is simply a charlatan. He rubber-stamps the abilities of any "psychic" who comes before him, and abuses the good name of the University of Arizona by operating under the color of his employment there. For their part, the U of AZ have abandoned their responsibility to protect their reputation by enforcing sound practices among researchers in their employ.

Officially the University cites "academic freedom" as the reason (and who would be against academic freedom, after all?), but they also have a responsibility to enforce academic standards among the researchers whose work is presented using their name, and in this regard they are falling woefully short. I certainly wouldn't enroll or allow any child of mine to enroll in an institution with such loose standards.

Not to phrase an accusation as a question or anything, but I would be interested to know whether the U of AZ has received contributions from the so-called psychics who go to Schwartz for validation, and in what amounts.
 
2005-01-17 08:44:31 PM
close, but still not good enough. your story has been faulted by the conclusions you've already made up. you want us to believe your same conclusions, you could claim to have this all on videotape and it wouldn't be enough. becuase you are already biased, thus your story is biased.

fact is this: i do not believe that ouija boards contain any paranormal powers. therefore, i do not believe that your ouija board experience means anything more then something that happened by accident, or deliberatly by someone using it (who of us hasn't *pretended* not to move the ouija board marker on purpose?).

you could be making the *whole* thing up, and it wouldn't matter. the fact that you think something happened doesn't mean it did.


Okay Jim. You're right, I'm wrong, you've own3d me. I really couldn't care less either way about this subject, and I revoice exjerseygirl's "strange stuff happens and it's difficult to explain" summary

Now go out there, take in some fresh ocean air and do a little jig cause you're so darned smart. Should be a nice night in Venice for that.
 
2005-01-17 08:46:14 PM
"I refused for the same reason all serious scientists in America and Europe have refused."


Umm...what scientists have refused James Randi's tests?

Randi doesn't test scientists, he tests people who claim to have paranormal abilites.

This guy is a quack...worse, he's a fraud, being paid by Jonathan Edwards to legitimize him to keep the gravy train rolling. This new woman is being groomed as the next million dollar idea--talking to the dead is where the money's at since some people will pay anything to do it if they even have a glimmer of hope it's real.

He saw the money Edwards was making and decided, instead of getting a small fee for lying and making up test data, he could generate money of his own by cultivating his own afterlife "psychic."

Smart guy. Beats University pay.
 
2005-01-17 08:46:19 PM
Gelfin
In defense of "academic freedom": A whole lot of ideas that were later proven correct were at first dismissed as crazy byt other scientists. If you don't sometimes allow people to research things that seem crazy, you will be missing out on good ideas.

That said, you're right, he is a charlatan.
 
2005-01-17 08:47:00 PM
evilsofa

Bingo

I don't think anyone who might have psychic powers has a clear cut road map saying that this "psychic experience" is real/this isn't.

I would think that if this stuff existed it would be intertwined with all kinds of existing beliefs and experiences and would be difficult to prove or talk about.
 
2005-01-17 08:47:28 PM
well... when were you all using your ouija boards? at night? at a kid slumber party? you don't think the atmosphere of it all has distorted your memories? i'm not accusing anyone of deliberatly making something up, I'm saying your playing a version of the "operator" game. And that if you were able to go back in time, Ebinezer Scrooge style, and saw this scene again from an outside perspective. it won't appear the same as it did when you were all sitting around, giving each other postive reinforement that something paranormal was happening. like a live ghost story, you all freaked your senses out.

so what, you're all willing to believe in something that can't be proven - the paranormal, versus something that's been know for centuries - that minds do not store facts, only your interpretation of them?
 
2005-01-17 08:52:13 PM
McDork

gosh, did you have to take it so personally? i don't see myself attacking you, just offering a better explanation then "weird things happen". if you'd rather believe that god controls everything and leave it like that, well, don't lose the number to roto-rooter and your toliet will never be a problem for you.
 
2005-01-17 08:52:19 PM
jim90291

I've already told you, "you're right, we're wrong". Granted, I'm saying this to be sarcastic because I know it's what you like to hear. I understand your point which you've illustrated exquisitely, and I, for one would like to thank you. You've explained away the mysteries of the universe.

Now if you could explain to me why Vox vodka tastes so freakin' good...
 
2005-01-17 08:56:29 PM
Man, if jim90291 still can't accept the possibility that Hasbro, through its acquisition of Parker Brothers, mass produces devices capable of communication with the dead, I guess he's just closed-minded.
 
2005-01-17 08:59:53 PM
if you'd rather believe that god controls everything and leave it like that

Now now, I never said that. I control my destiny. C'mon now, I feel a tug on my line as though a trolling's in progress.

gosh, did you have to take it so personally?


I apologise if my posts read overly sensitive, but I am getting tiiiiiired of people logging into threads to shoot down other people's experiences. If you weren't, sorry if I perceived them as such.

Using your theory: How do I know that a person's mother loved them? Sure, she fed them, clothed them, housed them, but how would I know that she really loved them?
 
2005-01-17 09:00:20 PM
McDork

its not supernatural, Vox vodka tastes good because its a wheat vodka, whereas ketel one and absolute add other ingredients.

but if you ask me, since you trust my opinions, go with Hendrick's gin. straight up, two olives.
 
2005-01-17 09:02:31 PM
go with Hendrick's gin. straight up, two olives.

I've had it and loved it...and now will be buying some on the way home this evening. Will probably see some sorta god because of over-indulgence.
 
2005-01-17 09:04:03 PM
tell michael when you see him, i'll be looking for him tonight. assuming muni's hasn't sold out of the hendricks.
 
2005-01-17 09:04:29 PM
McDork,

That's just a very good guess - easily better than 50/50 odds. The real problem, and where this quack prof's 'research' turns instantly worthless, is that it's subjective. So when you let someone getting a 'reading' do the interpreting, the chances of that being seen as a 'hit' skyrocket. Wouldn't anyone like to think that his mother really loved him - true or not?

Letting the subject interpret the results, especially when the subject hopes for success, is ridiculous. It was pointed out earlier - "I don't walk alone" was rated by a subject as an uncanny insight. It looks a lot more like a shrewd ink blot to me.
 
2005-01-17 09:07:52 PM
that's just a very good guess - easily better than 50/50 odds. The real problem, and where this quack prof's 'research' turns instantly worthless, is that it's subjective

Oops, occams, I was using my line of questions in response to jim90291's interesting insight into perception and memory.

I think this professor and his nonsense is a bunch o' bunk.
 
2005-01-17 09:09:00 PM
tell michael when you see him, i'll be looking for him tonight. assuming muni's hasn't sold out of the hendricks.

Odds are that the only god I'll be seeing later will be the porcelain one that I can't repair.
 
2005-01-17 09:12:03 PM
when considering these ideas, you also have to think about the newly found evidence quantum physics provides, in that the very act of observing alters the results of the experiment. this is a flaw in the scientific method, one which we truly don't have an answer for - so it is brushed under the rug.

my thing is this, and this is indeed a very old & basic argument. take thoughts for example - we know they exist, but they cannot be measured as of yet. but we know they exist. science cannot answer to the idea of a soul, or life force, yet this soul, this source of faith is arguably the most powerful force known to humans.

i myself have experienced things that you would commit me for. i cannot prove these experiences, just like i cannot prove i had hot sex with tyra banks in my dreams last night. more importantly, why would i want to? i think western culture is too hung up on measures and tangible, easily duplicated experiments - we debunk anything that is purly experiential as being part of our imagination. but indeed, everything is part of our imagination, no? why does this make that less real? i know for a fact psychic forces exist, but as stated before, we cannot prove it therefore those who have the ability share it with only those with an aptly open mind receptive to such ideas. and perhaps this is the way it is meant to be.

as for this guy & his subject, probably a fraud. you really don't hear about those who do this for real in newspapers
 
2005-01-17 09:17:45 PM
To everyone saying stuff like "hey, It could be real, science was wrong before, blah blah blah". Well, you see, science works on a thing called evidence. You either put up, or you shut up.

So called "psychics" like to do neither.
 
2005-01-17 09:20:21 PM
You either put up, or you shut up.

Isn't that an Oppenheimer quote? Or is it Hawkings?
 
2005-01-17 09:23:57 PM
Well, you see, science works on a thing called evidence.

True enough. Couldn't agree more.

Now prove to me that love exists.
 
2005-01-17 09:25:13 PM
namaste says:
"when considering these ideas, you also have to think about the newly found evidence quantum physics provides, in that the very act of observing alters the results of the experiment. this is a flaw in the scientific method, one which we truly don't have an answer for - so it is brushed under the rug."

FURIOUS: So, let me get this straight. You have the power to become invisible.

INVISIBLE BOY: Yes.

RAJA: But... only when no one is looking.

INVISIBLE BOY: Yes.

FURIOUS: If someone looks at you, you immediately become visible again.

INVISIBLE BOY: Yes.

RAJA: So you're only invisible... to yourself?

INVISIBLE BOY: No.

OUR HEROES: (hopefully) No?

INVISIBLE BOY: If I look at myseif, I become visible.

RAJA: So you're only invisible, when abuolutely no one is looking at you?

INVISIBLE BOY: Yes.

FURIOUS: So how do you know that you've ever been invisible?

INVISIBLE BOY: I just know.

Our heroes are less than impressed.
 
2005-01-17 09:26:54 PM
McDork and ExJerseyGirl--I'm with you both, I've had a lot of experiences that are, ummm, odd. But I'm not going to say anything here because so many skeptics will jump on me.

/chicken
 
2005-01-17 09:27:11 PM
You know, this is pretty funny. I love when people tote science like it can never be wrong. Look, science is not a religion. Perhaps this kind of thing can happen. If so, great. If not, no biggy. If it makes people sleep at night, what is the harm? If it makes a person happy and they don't bother anyone else, what is the big deal?

Someone earlier asked, if people can see the future, why do tragic things(like 9/11) happen? Really, if you worked at the world trade center and someone told you not to go to work that day, would you have believed them? Didn't think so. SO multiply that reaction by everyone that worked there. Hence, paranormal powers, if true, will never have that kind of effect on life.

In otherwords, everyone who thinks they are so awesome for being skeptical and only beleiving "hard scientific fact" needs to get off the high horse, read "the structure of scientific revolutions" by Thomas Kuhn and accept some uncertainty.
 
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