Capitalism says don't educate the public....then they'll figure out they are being screwed.

Democracy says educate the public so that government really does work.

Bush says "Capitalism are our friends."

jtucker

Its more that they use illegal practices to create the low prices and undercut the small businesses.

What are the illegal practices? I know they source as much as possible from Asia and pay competitive wages in those markets for labor (cheep compared to American labor costs). Is that what you are calling illegal? Am I missinng something?

As a former Wal-Mart employee, I've got a little bit of insider knowledge here...

About 10 years ago, I worked for the Big W for about a year and a half. I had just been pink-slipped from my teaching job, recently married, and was trying to go back into grad school. I did some substitute teaching while working at W-M, just to help make ends meet.

Like all the other shmoes, I started out earning minimum wage, with absolutely no benefits. Getting enough hours a week to make the paycheck worth anything was a hassle -- you sure didn't want to piss off the ass't manager who made the schedules. Between Thanksgiving and Christmas I usually worked nearly 40 hours a week; after Jan 1, I would be lucky to get 8 hours a week 'til March. Otherwise, I would put in anywhere from 20-28 hrs/week.

I worked a year in the Electronics Department having to put up with inbred rednecks coming in the first of every month with their screaming half-dressed kids and their government check, asking, "Do y'all have that movie with that guy from tha TV in it? You know tha one Uh mean -- tha show with tha kids and tha wife?" My favorite was when these dumbasses would ask if we had on VHS a movie that had just debuted in the theaters. If I had a dime for every time I wanted to scream, "Are you that farkin' stupid?!? How do you even dress yourself?!?" I'd have my retirement fund paid for.

After I'd been there a year, I requested and got transferred to the 3rd shift stocking crew. It was the only way I could get a steady 40-hr week and the promise of any benefits. 'Course, I had to be on this schedule for 3 months before I could get any benefits, even though I'd already put in a year.

I worked my ass off for the next few months, unloading semi trailers and carting boxes of crap around the store. It was the best time I ever had working there -- no customers and only other twisted folks like myself working late into the morning. Our night managers were extremely careful not to give us any overtime though, and several times after putting in 12 hours each of my first three days, I'd go in on the fourth and only work 'til 2am. We got our asses chewed if we went even a minute over 40 hours.

After about 5-6 months of this, I got another teaching job and left Wal-Mart behind for good.

Thank God.

Some things I learned:
== Wal-Mart will sell many items at a loss just to get your butt in the store so they can anally rape you with mark-ups on other items.
== Most Wal-Mart employees, while nice, are about as brilliant as a 4 watt nightlight and about as interesting conversationalists as a guernsey.
== They love to employ high school kids who don't know any better or who can't get a better job; I've currently got about 4 of my students working at our local supercenter and more than a dozen former students who have made it their 'career'.
== Wal-Mart fears theft from their employees much more than from their customers. Most of the black 'camera balls' in the ceilings are empty and only there for show; the ones watching the cash registers and service desk, however, are fully operational and on all the time.
== You've not lived 'til you've tried to bring down a 27'' TV set from a 12-foot riser on a rickety ladder with no help.
== They would put "Made in America" signs on racks of clothes that were actually made by overseas child labor and were clearly marked as being made abroad.
== Our store manager would get a bonus of nearly 6 figures if we were the top-selling store in our region. No wonder he was such a dick.

All in all, I think everyone should have to put in a few months in the blue vest, just to see what it's like. Then run away... far away.

Where I live now, I've got to go 15 miles to reach a K-Mart (and a lousy one, at that) and over 30 miles to find a Target or Meijer. In that same 30 mile radius, there are 7 Wal-Mart supercenters. I won't buy any of my clothes at the Wally World, but it's the only place we shop for household items and the like. Hell, it's the only local place we CAN shop for that stuff.

We may not like 'em, but we helped create 'em. Dammit.

/I even appeared in a regional commercial for the bastards.

2005-01-13 06:43:08 PM Iwearsocksforu

A Day Older than Yesterday: Why not set it at $100/hr then nobody would be poor, right?

Without going into a lot of detail about that, let's just say that is an idea that will solve nothing. Raising the wages of everyone solves nothing, but instead merely raises the cost of all other items in relation to the new wage standard.

Exactaly my point - there will always be jobs that pay below average and workers that earn below average. so the complaints about poor wages at Wally-World are basically from those that haven't thought it all the way through.

You earn the prize for having a basic understanding of economics.

Hm. Well, years ago, when I lived just outside the city of LA, I was working in a privately owned bookstore.

Was there are Borders or Barnes and Noble around there? I can't see how a store that sells guns and tampons would put a bookstore out of business.

Amazon.com might have also contributed to the closing.

Just sayin'.

McDork

Are you trying to tell me you can't buy a book in the city of LA anywhere other than at a Wal-Mart? I want to know what choices have been eliminated? I don't care that you can't go to one book store that closed down. I'm sure there are still a "few" left in LA.

The free market would be briliant if people weren't selfish gits and all the alternatives are facistastic.

The only way to balance this equation is with copious amounts of the devil weed.

Y'know, capitalism is an ugly beast. Places get driven out of business, people toss their morals out the window for the benefit of their portfolio...you get the idea.

But, as Winston Churchill (I think) said: Capitalism is the worst idea in the world. Until you consider every other idea.

Life sucks, get over it.

That said, I don't think it's too damned much to ask to have some kind of standards. Wal Mart plays dirty, VERY dirty. Yes, they're still within the letter of the law, but they're pissing all over the spirit.

One of the great things about living in a free country is that the people can fight their own fights, and (in theory) when the capitalist beast gets too out of control, they can humble it appropriately.

Problem is, you have people like our friend kingwank here, who have bought into such an abstracted idea of the capitalist ideal that when society tries to do what society does, they fight it. Yes, they're exercising their societal right as well, but that's not the point. The point is that the economy is there to serve society, not the other way around. By holding success higher than simple common decency, you've completely subverted the whole point we developed an economy in the first place.

This isn't some game. The model is brutal, yes, and you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs. But if it becomes dysfunctional, it becomes dysfunctional, and you have to do something to fix it. Wal Mart is openly abusing the system, and regularly breaking the law, getting away with in (in part) because the pure capitalists have gotten so much sand in their vaginas that they won't accept any criticism, no matter how obviously important. Reality has to intercede somewhere, guys.

Mugato

Don't shop there. Its not illegal to shop elsewhere. Sorry, I broke it. Next!!!

tukatz

Am I feeling a little Badger love? If you know what I mean.

Hang On Voltaire:

"The same complains were flying about 15 years ago, only it was Toys-R-Us that was putting people out of business. Look at them now!"

I was thinking about the same thing. I bet 80 years ago they were saying that "Woolsworth is killing our economy". Woolsworth would move in to a town and take away from local businesses just the same. The difference is that Wal-Mart started putting up shop in small towns as well (something Woolsworth did not do). I really am divided about Wal-Mart. On the one hand I believe in a free market system and Wal-Mart does actually help low income people by selling cheap good on the other hand I know that they drive a lot of local businesses out. Interesting dilema.


Watch what happens to wal-mart when they are no longer able to produce earnings "growth" by opening new stores everywhere. Wall street won't love them as much any more. The cycle of record growth rates can't continue forever.

tukatz:

Besides, Walmart started out as a small business. Ran by a smart man who knew what people wanted and figured out to buy in bulk in order to sell for less.

Yes, but Sam Walton was a big believer in American made products. Since he died, this is no longer the case. What percentage of items in Wal-Mart is made overseas, would you guess? 75% More? Getting more all the time?

The ironic thing is that Sam Walton's biography is called, "Made in America."

http://www.mentallyincontinent.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=120

Tis Beautiful.

Also, I don't shop at wal-mart because what they sell is mostly garbage. Talk about price all you want, but crap is crap.

/the cheap man pays twice

What percentage of items in Wal-Mart is made overseas, would you guess? 75% More? Getting more all the time?

As opposed to all those American-made products on the shelves at Target...?

LopezEG

I don't get it. What's going to happen? Will all of Wal-Mart's stores implode? Earnings growth not going on forever? Wall St. has never seen that scenario before from a giant company (sarcastic). WTF are you talking about?

Are you trying to tell me you can't buy a book in the city of LA anywhere other than at a Wal-Mart? I want to know what choices have been eliminated? I don't care that you can't go to one book store that closed down. I'm sure there are still a "few" left in LA.

ohhhh...wow....have you been to Los angeles?

I'm busy, so I'll give you a larger explaination later. If you really want an emotionally charged unload.

How can you "exploit" someone that has voluntarily taken the job and can quit at any time? I've never been fond of Walmart or Kmart because they tend to clobber small retail business ownership but exploit doesn't make much sense.

I worked at a Wal-Mart in college, so I know of what I speak. (For the record, I worked in sporting goods. We got to sell the guns. :D )

1) For retail work, Wal-Mart offers very good wages. (I worked at other retail stores, and Wal-Mart offered $2 more an hour.) And remember... it IS retail work, which is the lowest paying sector of the economy anyway. I wouldn't want to try to live, much less raise a family, on a single Wal-Mart associate's paycheck. But if you are, that isn't Wal-Mart's problem. (BTW, for retail stores, Wal-Mart health benefits are still about as good as it gets in the sector.)

2) You want to be a Wal-Mart Manager and get the big money? Easy. Just start as an associate, show up on time, work for 1.5 - 2 years, and wait for the 60-70% yearly attrition among associates to work its magic. Before long, you will be one of the most senior employees at the store, and first in line for a management job. (Wal-Mart is fanatical about promoting from the inside. Every single manager at the store I worked at, from our district manager right down to the shift managers, started at Wal-Mart as an associate.)

But, if Wal-Mart has an Achilles heel, it's these two things.

1) They have squeezed every last dime they can out of their suppliers to get cheap goods, even to the point of demanding such low prices that some companies have gone bankrupt. Sooner or later, they're going to either figure that out and quit trying to get blood out of a turnip, or no one is going to sell products to them.

2) The quality of their merchandise is really suffering. You pay for what you get, but when I worked there I could see that much of what we sold was crap. I shop at Target now, the prices are a little higher, but the quality is much better. (When a Wal-Mart-made combination lock literally fell apart in my hands, I knew something was up.)

The market will take care of both of these in due time. Adapt or die, and all that jazz...

/still remembers how to use the Wal-Mart phone network to make free long-distance calls
//doesn't
///no way in hell I'm telling you how.

Since no one in my family is Blue Collar trash I don't care. Exploit them it's not like it's hard to find morons to work at WalMart. Slave them till my prices drop.

Mugato

How about thinking for a moment who is shopping there and where they would shop (at higher prices) without Wal-Mart? You guys with a few extra bucks in your pockets who want to shop elsewhere should do just that. There are people who were never able to buy everything they needed and can now thanks to Wal-Mart. Maybe it is filthy, but it provides for poor families, and its not "filthy" in the sense that it does not provide the community with porn or vile language in music and videos. Sam Walton wanted a family oriented store and he's certainly free to "clean up" his products. He's not burning books or forcefully taking away media you would like to have, which is actually censorship. Is that better? Next!!!

Major Thomb
Think third world countries.

McDork

Spare me the emotion. Give me the facts. I'm not looking for a pissing match. It was a simple question...by the way, I have been to LA, and know that I can in fact buy books at stores other than Wal-Mart. I only wanted you to name a choice that was eliminated by Wal-Mart.

I was curious.

Los Angeles bookstores:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4824/na-la.htm

There are people who were never able to buy everything they needed and can now thanks to Wal-Mart.


and thanks to Wal-Mart we have many many more americans wo are too poor to buy everything.


how magical. It provides for poor families, while simultaneously being the largest creator of poor families.

vishuslee, I second your Kinko's comment. Sadly these days it's under the huge FedEx umbrella and there is very little "Kinko's culture" left.

I did my time on the second shift dealing with kicking scary homeless people out who'd been sleeping in Computer Rental for an hour and a half so we could close the damn branch. One guy smeared his own shiat all over our bathroom one afternoon.

One of the reasons I don't shop at Walmart because of the creepy old greeter guys at the front of each store. I feel sorry for them for some reason. Also the fact that I wouldn't be able to buy Jon Stewart's book or uncensored music there bugs me.

However I think the main reason I don't shop at Walmart is because of the people you encounter there. Long lines, picked through ragged merchandise, inept staff, howling snotty nosed kids, etc. Dealing with that headache isn't worth saving $1.29 on a space heater or $.19 on a greeting card. I'll go to the mall instead and select my items from a specialty store.

BransBadgers:

I don't get it. What's going to happen? Will all of Wal-Mart's stores implode? Earnings growth not going on forever? Wall St. has never seen that scenario before from a giant company (sarcastic). WTF are you talking about?

meh. this already happened in the '90s and they managed to quintuple their stock price since then. I guess we're all just farked.
I suppose their venture into foreign markets could be their downfall. Look at the ROI on the stores in Mexico and Brazil, for example.

decker12

it's not bad if you shop in the middle of the day or late at night.

dbaggins

Have you any idea the difference in scale between the number of people working at Wal-Mart and the number of people shopping there? The number of people who benefit from Wal-Mart's low prices far outweighs the number of people it provides with low wage jobs. Net effect = resounding good.

LopexEG:

I suppose their venture into foreign markets could be their downfall. Look at the ROI on the stores in Mexico and Brazil, for example.

They could also get farked by a major interruption of goods from China or a spike in costs from Asia. What if the Chinese start demanding a higher standard of living? Even worse, what happens when avian flu jumps to people again or SARS wipes out a region?

LopezEG

ROI on Wal-Mart stores outside of the US...I'm sorry I don't have those numbers in front of me. Do you? Also, I know that Wal-Mart has had less freely competitive climates in other countries which would explain to me their lower ROI, if that is in fact the case.

sid007

You win, buddy. Checkmate. Game over. Insert another quarter. That is farking awesome.

Now beware of the onslaught. Farkers will make you pay for being sacriligious.

John BigBootay sez: Also, I don't shop at wal-mart because what they sell is mostly garbage. Talk about price all you want, but crap is crap.

Amen to that. If Wal-Mart is all you can afford, or if it's the only game in town, then there's nothing for it, I suppose. But if you can afford to shop somewhere with better quality merchandise, do it.

Buy something that will last.

/has to laugh at people who think "cheap price" means "thrifty"

Wal-Mart gave $2 million to tsunami relief. That is really great until you consider they gave $10 million to buy the naming rights to the business school at the University of Arkansas.

Someday a genius stock analyst is going to figure out that the Wal-Mart profit on things it sells is roughly 3% and in no way justifies the stock price. The only thing keeping Wal-Mart growing is putting new stores up. Here there is a Wal-Mart every 5 miles.

It's interesting that Wal-Mart brags about the number of employees but doesn't mention the pay they receive. I have checked every Wal-Mart website, annual reports, and everywhere else I could possibly look. I cannot find 1 mention of how much Wal-Mart spends on employee compensation. In their own reports, compensation is lumped in with other expenses and hidden.

WalMart recently bought Seiyu. I guess I won't shop at Seiyu anymore either, particularly if they start selling the same cheap shiat they sell at WalMarts in the US.

Not sure what else they own overseas though.

So I was really doing a public service by stealing all that stuff from walmart back in high school?

Anyway, I think walmart provides a valuable public service...two, actually. It shows people that unchecked capitalism is not a good thing, and it keeps the rednecks away from those of us who are willing to pay more to buy from good retailers.

404

I hate Walmart. When I want a huge impersonal store, I go to Costco. Besides, Costco doesn't treat their employees like slave labor. And if that weren't enough, the head of Costco is no friend of Dubya and his cronies.

jkmartin

Would you mind proving to me that you are for real and actually researched this stuff. Find for me in any of Target's publications what they pay their employees. Especially in a balance sheet or a 10-Q.

Weaver95 [TotalFark]:

you know, rather than funding a PR blitz, wouldn't it have been better to have just cleaned up all their labor violations and start playing by the rules like the rest of us?

Who's "us," and what rules are we playing by?

I for one welcome our blue vested overlords!!!

No one forces people to work there.
No one forces vendors to supply them.
No one forces the low price loving public to spend 230+ Billion there.

Long live wal-mart Long live corporate greed.

Sam would be proud

By the way, profit margin has nothing to do with stock valuation. Revenue growth and profit growth are much bigger factors in stock price.

/does not wonder why this man is not a stock analyst

I hate Walmart, because I'm a stupid jingoist who doesn't care how many Chinese peasants it gives jobs too, I just like to biatch and moan about how it destroys "mom 'n pop" businesses which sell overpriced merchandise.