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(Canoe)   U.S. to open investigations of prisoner abuse at Guantanamo. Scapegoats to be named shortly   (cnews.canoe.ca) divider line 465
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2903 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Jan 2005 at 12:23 PM (9 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2005-01-06 09:09:31 AM
i think we should fire the guy who possess the authority to keep these guys locked up without charge, or access to counsel.
 
2005-01-06 09:15:02 AM
I think you should come up with a new gimmick.
 
2005-01-06 09:17:40 AM
GraphicAddiction

I think you should have been a blowjob, but you don't see me harping on about it now do you? Jeez.

When the definition of prisoner abuse is extended to include extended confinement without due process, I'll get interested.
 
2005-01-06 09:20:13 AM
Nine alleged incidents are to be investigated.

"Steve Rodriguez, the civilian in charge of interrogations at Guantanamo, said many of the allegations are old and some of the harsher techniques mentioned were thought to have been used on the alleged 20th hijacker in the Sept. 11 terror attacks."

We'll see how it turns out. I believe I'll wait for the results before I call for anyone's ass in a briefcase.
 
2005-01-06 09:21:28 AM
scootah: When the definition of prisoner abuse is extended to include extended confinement without due process, I'll get interested.

I forsee a token officer, and a bunch of enlisteds taking the fall for this one. Maybe a couple officers. I'd be shocked if anyone in the administration made the list.
 
2005-01-06 09:22:42 AM
scootah: I think you should have been a blowjob, but you don't see me harping on about it now do you?

Oh, sorry, I was actually reading the article while you were making a p....you were trying to make a point, weren't you?
 
2005-01-06 09:25:50 AM
There have been too many independent reports of abuse torture on too many occasions which were too similar to dismiss the accusations that segments of the US administration are actually abusing human rights in the worst way possible.

Here in Australia we have reports that of one of our citizens held at Gitmo was beaten and tortured. Not cool. Even if he was a terrorist, we need to demonstrate to him that we are civil and respect human rights.

The US is only confirming the accusations of the fundamentalists, as well as the suspicions of the muslim world, whilst achieving exactly the opposite of what it wants to achieve.

Not cool.
 
2005-01-06 09:26:09 AM
Just like Iraq, we will never know if the people blamed were ordered/ encouraged to commit abuse by someone above them.
 
2005-01-06 09:26:51 AM
the FBI accused interrogators of inserting lit cigarettes in prisoners' ears and shackling them into a fetal positions for hours, forcing them to soil themselves

I'm going to listen to Lee Greenwood's "Proud to be an American" while I read all of the torture apologists who post in this thread. What a great day for our country.
 
2005-01-06 09:28:48 AM
The American Civil Liberties Union last month released e-mails obtained under the Freedom of Information Act in which the FBI accused interrogators of inserting lit cigarettes in prisoners' ears and shackling them into a fetal positions for hours, forcing them to soil themselves.

I really hope this isn't true, but I'm not holding my breath.

Like I said in a previous thread, if you support this conduct, you have no right to get bent out of shape the next time an American contractor or soldier gets burnt and hung from a bridge.

War is war, afterall.
 
2005-01-06 09:30:06 AM
It is my firm and sincere belief that W. would have all Arabic people in the U.S. permanently incarcerated if he could.

He acts like he would.
 
2005-01-06 09:32:32 AM
keylock71: you have no right to get bent out of shape the next time an American contractor or soldier gets burnt and hung from a bridge.

Because....
pooping your pants = murdered and defiled

Pretty stupid point. If you want to be outraged over abuse, go ahead. Comparing it to butchery is taking it a little far.
 
2005-01-06 09:36:16 AM
I'm more outraged about holding hundreds of people indefinetly without trial because they fought for their national army when their nation was invaded by a foreign country. But I guess that news is old and busted.
 
2005-01-06 09:37:02 AM
if you can't beat em, beat em.
 
2005-01-06 09:48:15 AM
GraphicAddiction
Oh, sorry, I was actually reading the article while you were making a p....you were trying to make a point, weren't you?


My point was that you seem to have an approach to debate threads much like the UN approach to aid distribution, you squawk in, act important, make a whole lot of noise, crap all over everything, contribute very little of substance and make everybodies life more difficult.

Get a new gimmick? Why? Has the last one ceased being relevant? The detainees at Guantanamo are being held without trial, largely because no evidence of their crimes can be tabled. With increasing discussion on extending those holding terms to an indeffinite period.

As repugnant as the accusations of prisoner abuse are, I frankly don't think temporary discomfort rates on the vile-ometer compared to holding somebody without trial because you can't prove they actually did something wrong. I think innocence untill guilt can be determined beyond reasonable doubt, and due process are the most fundamentally important cornerstones of even the most rudimentary pretense of freedom and any nation that can claim to be free without preserve those basic principles is a farce.

The continued detention of ANY individual without due process is nothing more then a state sanctioned kidnap and torture ring and is beyond repulsive. It sickens me that a nation who once embodied the ideals I most strongly respect could continue to endorse this sickening barbarism.

/I remember the land of the free
 
2005-01-06 09:50:29 AM
This is obviously Bill Clinton's fault. Him or Bill Moyers.
 
2005-01-06 09:51:46 AM
I can understand that the Geneva conventions may not technically apply. I can understand that we may need to detain these people for extended periods of time... as long as they are providing useful information, or if they are deemed to be a threat to the US if released.

What I don't understand is, why the new interrogation methods? Is information in this conflict more important than in previous conflicts? Are the enemies more difficult to interrogate?

It seems to me that Gonzales, Rumsfield and the Bush administration decided that, since the Geneva conventions didn't apply, they would write their own rules, and expand interrogation methods while they were at it.

I only hope that they've gotten a lot of valuable information out of these detainees, because the evidence and allegations of abuse do have negative consequences, other than lost 'political capitol'. There is outrage and backlash that we experience in a very real way in terms of US public opinion in the middle east, and specifically Iraq. This strengthens the insurgency, and makes the jobs of Iraqi and Coalition forces that much more difficult.
 
2005-01-06 09:55:30 AM
Graphic Addiction - You call it a "gimmick", i call it being concerned about our country, our standing in the world, and the human right's of fellow earth dwellers. so if you want to talk, we can do that, or if you want to do-what-you-do, that's fine as well. see ya around.
 
2005-01-06 10:08:53 AM
So...after all the biatching....

Does anyone actually know how evidence is collected on a battlefield?

I've been asking for a while and no one seems to know. I don't believe that illegal, non military combatants captured in a fire fight have to have their weapons saved as evidence for trial. So....I don't think any of you know much about what you are talking about when you cry over the lack of evidence against peeps who were, for the most part, trying to kill US soldiers.

If any of you military types know about such things, please report.

I'm just seeing a lot of fussing and rehashing of the same exact thread we had a few days ago. Same thread, different day.
 
2005-01-06 10:09:24 AM
kitschnsync: I'm going to listen to Lee Greenwood's "Proud to be an American" while I read all of the torture apologists who post in this thread. What a great day for our country.

I'm with you 100% on this one.
 
2005-01-06 10:15:50 AM
2005-01-06 10:08:53 AM GraphicAddiction

So...after all the biatching....

Does anyone actually know how evidence is collected on a battlefield?


What does evidence or lack thereof have to do with abuse allegations?
 
2005-01-06 10:16:56 AM
2005-01-06 09:32:32 AM GraphicAddiction

Because....
pooping your pants = murdered and defiled
Pretty stupid point. If you want to be outraged over abuse, go ahead. Comparing it to butchery is taking it a little far.


You'd be right if that's all there was to it, but, yes, putting a lit cigarette in a person's ear, beating them within an inch of their life, electroshock, and drowning are indeed equal to burning someone and hanging them from a bridge. You fooling yourself if you think all this is akin to some frat hazing. One need only do a google search to see there's more to this than human pyramids and fecal matter.

Barbarism breeds barbarism, plain and simple.

At least the "terrorists" in Iraq do their own dirty work, unlike this administration who hide behind laws they create, and secretly send prisoners to other countries to have them tortured because they're afraid of what their own citizens will say.

All one in the same, as far as I'm concerned.
 
2005-01-06 10:18:12 AM
They'll need a new CIA chief again, or something.
 
2005-01-06 10:19:45 AM
GraphicAddiction:

2005-01-06 10:08:53 AM GraphicAddiction [TotalFark]

So...after all the biatching....

Does anyone actually know how evidence is collected on a battlefield?



i don't, i've never been on a battlefield, have you? do you know how its collected? if so, please share and educate us all. this much i do know, prisoner abuse has taken place, its been documented, its lead to trials and convictions. i do know that fbi agents have spoken out and reported on prisoner abuse at gitmo, and considering the recent past, i'm not willing to dismiss these claims outright. you know, i always understood that authority and power corrupt, its not theory i came up with one day, but a reality i was forced to accept. why are you so upset and what are you exactly trying to protect?
 
2005-01-06 10:26:24 AM
keylock71: putting a lit cigarette in a person's ear, beating them within an inch of their life, electroshock, and drowning are indeed equal to burning someone and hanging them from a bridge.

So...you're saying....

alive = dead.

Okay.

There are whole nine alleged cases being investigated. Some of them may be from other earlier interrogations elsewhere.

Hmmmmmmm. How many bound and helpless hostages had their heads slowly sawed off with a knife in Fallujah? Seems like quite a few. You can't seriously equate one with the other.

If you do...I really don't have much more to say to you.
 
2005-01-06 10:28:23 AM
eabod [TotalFark]

I can understand that the Geneva conventions may not technically apply. I can understand that we may need to detain these people for extended periods of time... as long as they are providing useful information, or if they are deemed to be a threat to the US if released.

I don't think very many of the prisoners can provide useful information after being detained for 2 years. What are they going to say? 'I knew where Bin Laden was 25 months ago'?
 
2005-01-06 10:28:32 AM
That is a pitiful strawman, GraphicAddiction.

Is it your position that torture is acceptable in the face of a complete lack of evidence of wrongdoing? That seems to be the implication of your statements, correct me if I am wrong.

How do you feel about torture? Assuming we knew the prisoners to be guilty of something, would it then be OK?
 
2005-01-06 10:31:37 AM
I'm going to listen to Lee Greenwood's "Proud to be an American" while I read all of the torture apologists who post in this thread. What a great day for our country.


Maybe try John Mellencamp's 'Ain't that America' to change things up.
 
2005-01-06 10:35:23 AM
voodoochild: do you know how its collected?

I thought I just now asked. Maybe in your apparent haste to chastise me for not hopping on the recycled thread bandwagon you missed this tidbit of info.

i'm not willing to dismiss these claims outright

I don't believe I've dismissed anything outright either. Maybe you should try reading what I've said next time instead of assuming. Things go much smoother that way.

why are you so upset and what are you exactly trying to protect?

Upset? Protect? That's odd. I'm trying to discuss a topic without all the frothing so...why am I catching hell for it again?

I'm actually quite a bit calmer about this than quite a few posters above. No...really, I'm in a pretty good mood.
 
2005-01-06 10:41:03 AM
2005-01-06 10:26:24 AM GraphicAddiction

We haven't tortured and killed as many of them as they have of us? So, somehow, our barbarism is better than theirs? Is that what you're saying?

It's all the same bloody and pointless business to me.

Keep playing the numbers game all you want, if it makes you feel better.

And I'm sure we can trust the military and our government to objectively investigate these cases, because they've given us so many reason to trust them in the past.
 
2005-01-06 10:41:38 AM
kitschnsync:

Is it your position that torture is acceptable in the face of a complete lack of evidence of wrongdoing?

No...no. My position is that...

Alive = alive
Dead = dead

Because I think butchery is a tad bit worse than pooping, don't take it that I think soiling yourself isn't just awful.

I can't wait until this thread hits FARK. Maybe you all will be less willing to make me into some Neocon boogie man that needs sound defeating.

I'm just here trying to get away from clicheville and have a discussion instead of watching a tired rant fest.
 
2005-01-06 10:43:24 AM
keylock71: We haven't tortured and killed as many of them as they have of us?

What? You don't know?

Numbers game? You haven't been paying a bit of attention, have you?
 
2005-01-06 10:47:04 AM
J.Garcia'sRightMiddleFinger

I don't think very many of the prisoners can provide useful information after being detained for 2 years. What are they going to say? 'I knew where Bin Laden was 25 months ago'?

True. But what if a prisoner says they'll rejoin the fight? I agree with your sentiment that no one should be held indefinitely without trial. There should be a formal and transparent process to determine if someone still poses a military threat. I think we're getting that now in some respect, which is why I'm more concerned about interrogation methods. I just think there's more grey area when it comes to releasing potential terrorists, as opposed to your average civilian criminal.
 
2005-01-06 10:49:10 AM
2005-01-06 10:43:24 AM GraphicAddiction

Well, if all you think these allegations amount to is some prisoners being forced to soil themselves, it appears you are the one who hasn't been paying attention.

That's all I'm going to say about that.
 
2005-01-06 10:49:21 AM
Same thread, different day.

Um, this thread is about abuses of Gitmo detainees. The evidence has been provided by American eyewitnesses.

Whether or not the detainees should be in Gitmo in the first place is an entirely different matter. Can you see the distinction, GA?

Maybe you need a new gimmick.

And just to clarify, do you think torture is acceptable or not? It is a simple question, no need to dodge it.
 
2005-01-06 10:50:42 AM
This is a strange development.

I could have sworn it was OK to torture now.

Our incoming Attorney General said so. He said the Geneva Convention was obsolete. He said torture is the new h0tness and if American soldiers get captured and tortured, well stuff happens.
 
2005-01-06 10:52:28 AM
jeez, you guys are really laying into GA, he did ask a legitimate question. he's a reasonably sharp guy, and he totally looks look a pirate. that's enough to make him ok in my book despite an occasional "difference of opinion".
 
2005-01-06 10:53:56 AM
eabod: But what if a prisoner says they'll rejoin the fight?

Keep them detained.Torturing them isn't going to accomplish anything more than making them want to fight even more.
 
2005-01-06 10:54:15 AM
GraphicAddiction

The problem with your reasoning (IMHO) is that you fail to acknowledge the escalation of violence. We shove a broomstick up someone's ass, and they one-up us by cutting off heads. The ultimate battle is for the 'hearts and minds', remember. In order to defeat terrorism... and the insurgency in Iraq, we have to bring all of the moderates we can to our side, and marginalize all of the radicals. Exploiting legal loopholes to allow technically legal forms of torture is not helping us attain our goals, unless you believe that the information we're getting is that valuable.
 
2005-01-06 10:54:16 AM
sigdiamond2000: What does evidence or lack thereof have to do with abuse allegations?

Sorry, I missed the question in the rush.

It really doesn't. But...there seems to be a LOT of posts about it anyway. Thus, my initial reaction.

I figured with all the experts on indefinite detention around here someone might know.
 
2005-01-06 10:57:05 AM
The question of how evidence for cases involving enemy combatants should be handled was broached in one of the opinions delivered by the Supremes in the recent triad of Gitmo cases. I can't remember if it was Rasul or Hamdi, but it is in there somewhere. GraphicAddiction can do his own homework.

Besides, it has nothing to do with this thread anyway. This thread is about torture in Gitmo, the captures are already after the fact.
 
2005-01-06 10:58:21 AM
GraphicAddiction:

We'll see how it turns out. I believe I'll wait for the results before I call for anyone's ass in a briefcase.

*sigh* i missed that.


Upset? Protect? That's odd. I'm trying to discuss a topic without all the frothing so...why am I catching hell for it again?

theres no frothing here either, i've just started my day and i'm all kinds of happy.

you might be getting the response youre getting beause of things like:

Pretty stupid point. If you want to be outraged over abuse, go ahead. Comparing it to butchery is taking it a little far.

whats the inference to be drawn from that? that you arent outraged by abuse. that torture is acceptable becaue they arent as bad as what some of them did to some of us. i dont know, but most of us consider electroshock, mutilation, and being shackled for days without food or water, to be barbarism and butchery.
 
2005-01-06 10:58:50 AM
eabod

I agree that someone who is a continued military threat should be held. I hope you are right that this is now being evaluated on a prisoner by prisoner basis, but it has taken way too long. There is definetly a lot of gray area regarding the release of terrorists, but when you simply don't release any of them, you are without a doubt committing some serious injustice. Plus, if our government feels it has the right to hold people indefinetly due to being unable to determine if they are a potential threat, then that opens the door for Americans abroad to be held indefinetly by other nations.
 
2005-01-06 10:59:54 AM
I don't understand why these prisoners were brought there in the first place. Any information about local resistance would be hardly accesssible after the combatants are dragged halfway around the world at least to the forces remaining in Afghanistan.

If we have to emulate the enemy in order to gain an edge we run the risk of becoming them. After seeing the following abuses in Iraq, it becomes clear that our nation has been forever altered. Unlike most Americans I do not want to win at any cost...
 
2005-01-06 11:00:04 AM
eabod: you fail to acknowledge the escalation of violence.

I'm sorry, but killing in retaliation of a broomstick isn't justified.

I do see it as a rather handy excuse for terrorists to butcher aid workers and "get away with it" in the hearts and minds of people like yourself out in the rest of the world.

Remember...

alive != dead

You know, eye for an eye and all. It's NOT head for an asshole.
 
2005-01-06 11:01:28 AM
2005-01-06 10:52:28 AM lovelaura

jeez, you guys are really laying into GA, he did ask a legitimate question.

I agree. I certainly hope he doesn't think I'm laying into him. He did ask a legitimate question and I believe he's discussing a topic in a calm manner. A topic, unfortunately not the topic.

I fail to understand how the way evidence is gathered on a battlefield has anything to do with torture allegations.

His question would be more relevant if this thread was about legal/illegal detention. But it's not.
 
2005-01-06 11:01:28 AM
sigdiamond2000: What does evidence or lack thereof have to do with abuse allegations?

GraphicAddiction: It really doesn't.

Glad you cleared that up.
 
2005-01-06 11:05:56 AM
2005-01-06 10:54:16 AM GraphicAddiction

Sorry, I missed the question in the rush.

It really doesn't. But...there seems to be a LOT of posts about it anyway. Thus, my initial reaction.

I figured with all the experts on indefinite detention around here someone might know.


Crap. No, I'm sorry. I missed this post.

Gotcha, message received and all that. Thanks.
 
2005-01-06 11:10:27 AM
I apologize about the stupid comment. I should have been kinder and gentler.

Oh, STOP looking at me like that. I'm just fooking around.
 
2005-01-06 11:16:55 AM
Jesus, it's like a love-in around here all of a sudden.

Oh well, that should change in 45 minutes or so.
 
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