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(CNN)   U.S. Airways asks non-union employees to work for free over the holidays   (money.cnn.com) divider line 343
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15319 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Dec 2004 at 4:41 PM (9 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2004-12-29 05:23:26 PM  
US Airways will be gone in a few months, and United will be next.
 
2004-12-29 05:23:43 PM  
Brother alpha and Big Tuna....Your are right. That is why unions are for intelligent educated non victimized people.
 
2004-12-29 05:23:57 PM  
I don't get how inconveniencing those who put the money in your pocket is going to help. The idiots who staged the sickout are only shooting themselves in the foot and can't see it as they're blinded by union propaganda. Funny how they still don't see themselves as possibly being the culprit.

IMO, unions = protection racket.
 
2004-12-29 05:24:27 PM  
oops "you're"
 
2004-12-29 05:25:45 PM  
They did not stage a sick out. Only six more people called in sick this year vs other years. Do some research TheXerox.
 
2004-12-29 05:26:06 PM  
At least she gets the summers and Christmas off.

Well of course, there's trade-offs jz. You work 12 hour days for three quarters of the year and you get your summer off. But you people who are so critical of teachers act like they're out partying every night and alas, that is not the case. There's also other fun things like wondering if your tires are going to be slashed when the school day is over. And then you have to come home and deal with the likes of me . . .
 
2004-12-29 05:26:08 PM  
Paschal:

Brotheralpha is correct. My mother was a teacher in the heart of Detroit (which should be worth bonus pay right there). And she was often grading papers and doing lesson plans until midnight.

I don't know what it was like with her, but all the shiat the techers here hang on the walls they have to pay for themselves. Need extra teaching tools, pay for it yourself. Etc.

Eats up a lot of your paycheck, not even tax deductible.
 
2004-12-29 05:26:47 PM  
Brazil.... Good posts my man. Reading Brazil was like reading Atlas Shrugged again :-) Actually, good posts by a lot of people.

Oh, and this guy...

mutilato: "Actually, it's what I believe. administrators decide the value of labor."
========

Hate to break it to you, but what decides the value of labor is good 'ol supply and demand.

Cody
 
2004-12-29 05:27:09 PM  
Let's see. As Unions are going away, workers are getting paid less with fewer benefits, jobs going overseas, CEOs are getting paid more than they ever have, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Yeah, things are getting better now that Unions are going away. Riiiight.
 
2004-12-29 05:27:27 PM  
Oh great-another union-bashing thread. With insightful comments like "Unions suck". You children have never had a job where you are treated with fairness, dignity and respect, and so you think that it is normal to be exploited and abused. Unions have not outlived their usefulness-they are needed more than ever. You idiots are slaves hoping for a Confederate victory.


/Union,and proud of it.
 
2004-12-29 05:28:31 PM  
1) Reduce everyone's salary (who is over) to $200,000.
2) Fire anyone one complains, replace with people who are smart enough to be extremely happy with $200,000.

Stock options? Never.
Stock purchase plan? Equal from CEO to janitor.
Anything else? No.

Don't like it? You're an idiot.

Thanks for playing.


Jesus, Karl Marx much?
 
2004-12-29 05:28:42 PM  
But hey, without education you may just end up as President of the United States . . .
 
2004-12-29 05:29:06 PM  
A dollar a YEAR, I believe the contract was. Of course, it also included a jet and a bucket of stock, but hey.
 
2004-12-29 05:30:17 PM  
Individuals have to decide for themselves what they are worth, not a group that pays the same wage to the most productive as the least productive. Unions monopolize and restrict the supply of labor, subverting the free market.

And how is this different than a bunch of people getting together, pooling their resources and forming a corporation to take advantage of greater bargaining power?

There's nothing more capitalistic than a union. They're simply corporations that sell labour to other corporations.

Anyone who hates unions obviously hates America, Democracy and the free market in general.
 
2004-12-29 05:32:16 PM  
Yeah, these sickout numbers were basically the same as last year. What this was, was possibly the executives hanging them out to dry in the media spotlight by intentional poor planning.

It's not enough that they negotiated and renegotiated (in good faith) pay cut after pay cut with the unions. When the unions finally said we've had enough pay cuts while still watching the company lose money, USAir cried all the way to bankruptcy court. Not for the usual reasons, but knowing that they could get the courts to set aside the collective bargaining agreements.

Result, instant 20% pay cuts (in addition to the previous), halt to medical benefits, termination of the benefit pension plans for workers AND retirees.
 
2004-12-29 05:32:47 PM  
You idiots are slaves hoping for a Confederate victory.

And we would have had one too if Lee had listened to Longstreet at Gettysburg and swung all three of his Corps around the Union left and placed themselves between Meade and Washington D.C. instead of ordering a charge up the hills on Day 2 and then up the middle on Day 3.
 
2004-12-29 05:32:55 PM  
How about a group of corporations pooling their production, in order to have a fair say in its valuation against those nasty consumers. Oh wait, that'd be a called a cartel and wouldn't be legal.
 
2004-12-29 05:35:04 PM  
What's the problem? Lots of other companies do the same. Hell, even FedEx asked me to volunteer at its hub in Memphis over the Xmas holiday....

/Starts to see the problem
//Ain't farkin giving up holiday time to work for free in another country
 
2004-12-29 05:35:47 PM  
Aexia:

And how is this different than a bunch of people getting together, pooling their resources and forming a corporation to take advantage of greater bargaining power?

There's nothing more capitalistic than a union. They're simply corporations that sell labour to other corporations.

Anyone who hates unions obviously hates America, Democracy and the free market in general.



Unions are the exact opposite of the free market. Each person has to negotiate for themselves, because each person's labor is not worth the same amount. The socialist labor unions decide that each person should be paid the same wage regardless of ability, thereby monopolizing and restricting the labor supply, and reducing productivity.
 
2004-12-29 05:37:15 PM  
China needs unions, they're the ones being exploited bigtime.
American A-holes hiring kids and paying them slave wages to make their crap for them while they rake in billions.
Open up your eyes people, American jobs are moving out of the country everyday to places who okay slave labor.
You people dont blink when that hapens but if Jane or Jack want a decent wage and working condtions you dopes throw a hissy fit.
 
2004-12-29 05:39:48 PM  
How about a group of corporations pooling their production, in order to have a fair say in its valuation against those nasty consumers. Oh wait, that'd be a called a cartel and wouldn't be legal.

No, instead you pool your campaign contributions and give it to the candidate that won't veto off-shore tax shelters, or handout corporate subsidies, or enact protective taxes, and make life as difficult as possible for unions. Don't cry comatose. All the USAir executives will land on their feet, only the rank and file will suffer.
 
2004-12-29 05:40:26 PM  
brazil
dude, you were talking about theft of precious money. what did you mean if not taxes? are liberals actually breaking into your house to steal for the poor? that sucks.
 
2004-12-29 05:40:33 PM  
forditude

...Unions monopolize and restrict the supply of labor, subverting the free market.

Ah, but inversely, companies often monopolize or attempt to monopolize and restrict the supply of goods, subverting the free market.

And companies are like unions in that they group together because there is strength in numbers. And companies fear this kind of strength from employees.
 
2004-12-29 05:41:43 PM  
Dano33:

American A-holes hiring kids and paying them slave wages to make their crap for them while they rake in billions.
Open up your eyes people, American jobs are moving out of the country everyday to places who okay slave labor.
You people dont blink when that hapens but if Jane or Jack want a decent wage and working condtions you dopes throw a hissy fit.


Too bad you can't see that Jane and Jack and the rest of the union restrict a corporation so badly that they decide to move to China and pay 10 cents a day wages. Labor unions provide the reason for corporations to seek cheaper labor. If they can't find it in America, then thay have to move elsewhere.
 
2004-12-29 05:44:48 PM  
Jeez...the article is flat out wrong. If you read the press release, what US Airways asked was that salaried employees who were off those days volunteer to assist. Key word is that they're SALARIED. They aren't working for free, they get a SALARY. It's part of getting a SALARY. You're not hourly, and thus working for free, you're a SALARIED worker. It's part of your job. This has mothing to do with any of the union workers, it's all administrative people. And it isn't out of the ordinary for them to do this. Many of the same people volunteered in DC National Airport during the week of Thanksgiving.

Most of the articles written about this are giving incorrect facts.
 
2004-12-29 05:45:35 PM  
geosprint

"They did not stage a sick out. Only six more people called in sick this year vs other years."

The figure cited refers to just flight attendants, not the other personnel who caused this shiatstorm. Regardless, there were enough people absent to lead to flight cancellations, lots of ruined holiday plans, and plenty of people vowing to never fly US Airways again. Perhaps you're the one in need of some research.
 
2004-12-29 05:45:52 PM  
To bad you cant see that if they could get away with paying Jane and Jack 10 cents a day in the USA they would be doing it.
 
2004-12-29 05:46:44 PM  
You all do realize that the CEO took no pay cut.

Oh, and Fortitude, unions don't say each person should get the same pay. They negotiate working conditions so employers don't arbitrarily alter work rules. Unions balance the power relationship between labor and management. Without unions there would be no 40 hour work week, minimum wage, safety regs fair labor stadnards, etc. etc. Socialism means a centrally planned economy. centrally planned economy doesn't equal negotiated work rules. Learn some freaking economic theory before opening your piehole.

All you free marketeers should be demanding that this airline liquidate. Their management sucks.
 
2004-12-29 05:46:55 PM  
Schulte:

Ah, but inversely, companies often monopolize or attempt to monopolize and restrict the supply of goods, subverting the free market.

Companies cannot restrict the supply of goods. If they attempt to create artificial shortages, then they aren't making the most of opportunities to sell products and have to pay inventory holding costs, which doesn't add value to shareholders. How many companies purposely create individual shortages for no valid reason?

And companies are like unions in that they group together because there is strength in numbers. And companies fear this kind of strength from employees.

What companies group together? They certainly don't decide to artificially inflate the price of their products, because that's known as collusion, and it's illegal. Companies fear wasting money on unproductive workers, and they fear not being able to fire people at will when necessary.
 
Bf+
2004-12-29 05:47:20 PM  
Disgruntled airport workers?
Greeeeaaaaaat.
 
2004-12-29 05:48:05 PM  
A DAY IN THE LIFE OF JOE REPUBLICAN


Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality standards.

With his first swallow of water, he takes his daily medication. His medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to ensure their safety and that they work as advertised.

All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance - now Joe gets it too.

He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents because some crybaby liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained.

Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for the laws to stop industries from polluting our air.

He walks on the government-provided sidewalk to subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some lazy liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer adheres to these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union.

If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed, he'll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some stupid liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

It is noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some godless liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great Depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime. Joe also forgets that in addition to his federally subsidized student loans, he attended a state funded university.

Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His car is among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal fought for car safety standards to go along with the taxpayer funded roads.

He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans.

The house didn't have electricity until some big-government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification.

He is happy to see his father, who is now retired.

His father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking, cheese-eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to.

Joe gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk show.

The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good.

He doesn't mention that the beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day.

Joe agrees: "We don't need those big-government liberals ruining our lives!

After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have."
 
2004-12-29 05:48:15 PM  
Ahhh, after reading this thread (quite a feat to absorb the whole thing), I think I know why the only things discussed in the last election were the war in Iraq, gay marriage, and what Kerry did on the Swift Boat.

...because, naturally, no one gives a shiat about those things in the long run, and those are the only types of things that anyone feels comfortable talking about. Start discussing education, domestic labor policies, foreign trade, unemployment, and uncontrolled capitalism (too much of a good thing is not good at all)... and you get a, "Hey! Watch it there! That topic's too hard! We can't talk about that on TV!"

I like the idea of unions and how they can work to balance out the power imbalance in the current corporate worker/management hierarchy, as well as the imbalance among salaries of skilled/trade workers and white collar Excel-jockeys.
It just sucks that unions nowadays are so awful that I find them as useful as an asshole on my elbow.

I am a member of a union in a job that I currently find useless, being a member of a local branch of the union that I find even more useless.
That said, in most of the non-union jobs that I've had, I was pooped on freely and frequently by management.
I'd elaborate my case, but you've already made up your mind that I must be a bad worker.
 
2004-12-29 05:49:45 PM  
Seth_J:

dsmo: Yes, treating workers as demonstrated in a book like The Jungle would be great.

Yes, realizing that its 2004/5 and 1904/5 would be great as well. I highly doubt any worker today is treated as demonstrated in The Jungle.

Unions had their place but that era is long over. Unions are gasping for survival in this post-industrial age.


As much as I hate what unions do to the economy, I have to disagree.

With the way The Corporation is behaving, and the way governments continue to do the bare minimum in making and enforcing labor laws because of the inevitable corporate infection, unions have a new heyday; unions are again necessary, as much as they are the cancer which ensures child-labor sweatshops, and job outsourcing, continues to exist.
 
2004-12-29 05:49:47 PM  
The gas and electric companies artificially restricted supplies of electricity to California to the tune of $20 billion.

Cable companies collude to prevent compatition. Same thing.
 
2004-12-29 05:50:21 PM  
I hope the union thugs put US Air out of business. When they loos their jobs as a result of their own actions, it will be a fine lesson to learn.

Plus, the airline industry needs to get rid of some seats to have a chance at profitability.
 
2004-12-29 05:50:30 PM  
Yes, Employees, please take not of the following memo for all airline industries. It has come to the attention of the board of directors that we are unable to afford having 2 yahts, 5 houses across the united states, 2 reciculously expensive condos and 2 mistresses who we fark at those condos, even if we are pulling a 6 figure income. THEREFORE, we will require all of you who really bush your arse for the company to work for free on christmas holiday. Yes, we know its the busiest day of the year, but considering, WE DONT REALLY CARE ABOUT YOU, you will understand. Thank you.
 
2004-12-29 05:51:25 PM  
So forditude, do you really believe everyone plays by the rules? I have some Enron, Tyco, etc. stock you can buy. And before you say they got caught. How many don't? In a perfect world your theories would be right, but unfortunately they are just that -- theories.

/flame on.
//works over.
 
2004-12-29 05:53:59 PM  
Companies cannot restrict the supply of goods. If they attempt to create artificial shortages, then they aren't making the most of opportunities to sell products and have to pay inventory holding costs, which doesn't add value to shareholders. How many companies purposely create individual shortages for no valid reason?

DeBeers does it, and makes billions doing so. That diamond you think is so rare and therefore so expensive really isn't that rare; you should be paying about one-fifth the cost.

The Union bashing stuff is stupid. Every benefit you enjoy today, some Union person fought for, sometimes literally. The Unions aren't ruining jobs, it's our farked up governmental policies that don't keep jobs here.

I wonder how many here who are bashing Unions were kissing the butt of the Fannie Mae CEO who is going to be paid millions the rest of his life for nothing. One group fights for a little better deal and you spit on them, another group wants obsense amounts of weatlh and you appauld them.

Welcome to the Wal-Mart America.
 
2004-12-29 05:56:03 PM  
cam in RI:

Oh, and Fortitude, unions don't say each person should get the same pay. They negotiate working conditions so employers don't arbitrarily alter work rules. Unions balance the power relationship between labor and management. Without unions there would be no 40 hour work week, minimum wage, safety regs fair labor stadnards, etc. etc. Socialism means a centrally planned economy. centrally planned economy doesn't equal negotiated work rules. Learn some freaking economic theory before opening your piehole.


Asshat, I know and have posted more economic theories in these threads than you can imagine. You need to realize the difference between 1904 and 2004. Do you really think corporations could get away with paying slave wages nowadays? If the government revoked child labor laws, does that mean that there will be 10-year olds working 80-hour weeks? I didn't think so. I did not say Socialism, I said socialist, which is quite different. Unions subvert capitalism, and are not necessary due to the fact that competition would prevent slave-like working conditions. How about you read this and STFU.
 
2004-12-29 05:56:16 PM  
Do some of you people actually believe that the benefits you receive today are given to you out of the goodness of the companies heart?
 
2004-12-29 05:57:00 PM  
I agree with the people who mentioned that US Airways is probably going to liquidate after this, but the article never really mentioned why. The problem is that they have a high cost structure, with all of their short-haul flights on the East Coast. They don't have the power to be able to raise fares, though, because they have so much competition from Southwest and Jet Blue and other discount carriers. Actually, none of the major airlines has had any sort of ability to raise fares.

Also, the entire industry had too much capacity in relation to the number of passenger miles actually traveled. That problem was starting even before September 11th, but the major airlines could ignore it for a while because they had the rich business travelers absorbing a lot of costs. Well, now that cheaper seats are available and businesses realize they can cut costs by flying a discount carrier, those free drinks in first class or that fully refundable ticket don't seem to mean too much any more.

The airline business is in a cutthroat situation right now, and it's going to stay that way until a carrier liquidates or the major carriers actually can compete with the discount airlines. (Which is difficult. Southwest, Jet Blue, and AirTran have the luxury of serving just the high-volume markets, while the majors serve big route networks where some markets bring in more revenue than others.)
 
2004-12-29 05:58:28 PM  
I can only speak for the U.S. economy, but...

Can anyone here say, without exception or condition, that unions are evil and serve no useful purpose in a capitalist (or mostly so) economy?

Can anyone here say, eithout exception or condition, that unions perform the task for which they were created (the protection of workers against exploitation by management)?

No (to both)? Then chill out.

Yes (to either)? Then you're blind.

With the incredible number of employee protection laws in place in the U.S., unions are not essential as they were 100 years ago. I am not management, and I do not belong to a union. I negotiate my own salary and have challenged my employer to replace me for less. I also feel pretty well protected, legally, against physical, sexual, or even mental abuse (with the exception of the fact that I work too many hours a week, but that's my own fault).

Flip side: unions (or at least "representatives of labor") serve a valuable function in this country. Without them, we would not have the laws I mentioned. And they have ensured, in many areas, that employees are protected from exploitation. But they take it too far.

The problem with unions is not whether they should exist. The problem, IMHO, lies in the fact that they have not changed to reflect the interests of their own constituents. Demanding high salaries and benefits out of line with some positions is a sure way to guarantee that there won't be enough jobs for everyone.
 
2004-12-29 05:58:29 PM  
and about the Iraq thing - e-mail me at b­rianvan2923[nospam-﹫-backwards]li­am­g*co­m if you want to biatch me out - does anyone seriously think that things are going signficantly worse than they should be at this point? Not bad enough to ignore what's going on here on our soil.

And EVERYONE'S complicit in that. Mostly because the Democrats don't have any comments or answers regarding anything else in the world, it seems.
 
2004-12-29 05:59:52 PM  
These union bashers probably haven't held a job outside McDonalds. It's really a shame how uninformed they are. Rush isn't always right, kids.
 
2004-12-29 05:59:54 PM  
Paschal:

So forditude, do you really believe everyone plays by the rules? I have some Enron, Tyco, etc. stock you can buy. And before you say they got caught. How many don't? In a perfect world your theories would be right, but unfortunately they are just that -- theories.


Everyone doesn't play by the rules. However, for the 10-15 companies you can name that have had scandals, there are hundreds of thousands of others of all sizes throughout the U.S. that do the right thing. It's a shame that the liberals have made corporations the bad guy, and pretend that they must protect you and me from them through regulation and socialism.
 
2004-12-29 06:00:23 PM  
Oh, and I forgot to mention: The problems I listed are systemic within the industry. A weekend of free labor won't be enough to save US Airways. If one of their unions spontaneously disintegrated, and they lowered their labor costs by 20% (which is unlikely), it might help -- but I don't think it'd help enough. In other words, I don't think the unions are fully to blame in this situation.
 
2004-12-29 06:00:48 PM  
The same benevolent corporations that you have so much faith in do have 10 year olds working for pennies a day. That's how you got your farking sneakers and jeans at Walmart. I think if corporations could tie you to a desk and keep you there 24/7 they would. The US has the lowest % of unionized workers in the industrialized world and the longest work week and the lowest amount of vacation time and the lowest amount of benefits and the worst pension system and....
 
2004-12-29 06:03:24 PM  
WAL-MARTIFICATION
 
2004-12-29 06:07:05 PM  
Befuddled:

DeBeers does it, and makes billions doing so. That diamond you think is so rare and therefore so expensive really isn't that rare; you should be paying about one-fifth the cost.

I don't buy diamonds and don't wear jewelry. DeBeers has the distinct advantage of not having to pay inventory costs, because their inventory is in mines and caves. However, many people already know the atrocities committed to supply diamonds, but still turn a blind eye.

The Union bashing stuff is stupid. Every benefit you enjoy today, some Union person fought for, sometimes literally. The Unions aren't ruining jobs, it's our farked up governmental policies that don't keep jobs here.

Wrong. Benefits were gained by increased competition. At the turn of the century, there was usually only one factory to work at; therefore, slave conditions were present because there was no other recourse. Can you see any of those conditions existing today? Of course not, because whoever tried it would go under thanks to the fact that competition exists to provide what others are unwilling to give.

I wonder how many here who are bashing Unions were kissing the butt of the Fannie Mae CEO who is going to be paid millions the rest of his life for nothing. One group fights for a little better deal and you spit on them, another group wants obsense amounts of weatlh and you appauld them.

I'm not spitting on anyone. I am saying that labor unions are the direct opposite of everything that capitalism stands for.
 
2004-12-29 06:07:15 PM  
Everyday lobbyist bought and paid for with union money are fighting in D.C. to either stop any new law that would hurt the worker or are fighting to keep the existing laws that benefit workers today.
All workers union and non union.
Think about it, if it wasnt for these union groups who the fark else is gonna do this?
 
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