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(CNN)   U.S. Airways asks non-union employees to work for free over the holidays   (money.cnn.com) divider line 343
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15319 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Dec 2004 at 4:41 PM (10 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2004-12-29 01:06:34 PM  
hillbillypharmacist: no, I didn't pay to go to my school.

You paid property taxes. Either you or someone else did.

mutilato: What if my company is wrong? (I believe they are)

Well, then suggest that the salary of all policemen directly employed by your company be doubled. Volunteer to cut your salary in half to do it.
 
2004-12-29 01:06:40 PM  
Seth_J: Unions are gasping for survival in this post-industrial age.

The artificial valuation of Chinese currency, and extreme greed of US corporate executives are to blame for this, not the unions. You management types need to pull your heads out of your asses and realize that without labor, your job is worth nothing. High paying union jobs keep America's economy going. Go ahead and give millions of Americans a 20-30% pay cut and see what happens to discretionary spending. You union bashers are generally nothing more than parrots, and have no idea what you are talking about.
 
2004-12-29 01:07:09 PM  
It is the system of a free people and individual liberty.

free, but exploited.
having liberty, but no money.
 
2004-12-29 01:08:08 PM  
For me, capitalism is a moral issue. It is the system of a free people and individual liberty.

If you are prepared to host an economic system within your moral imperative in place of "The welfare of others" then we will not ever see eye to eye. The free market system, without the reason, humanity and wisdom of man to keep it in check, will create Halliburtons and Wal-Marts and Phillip Morrises on a daily basis. That is not consilient with a free people. A people whose freedoms are at risk from massive corporations as easily as from massive governments.
 
2004-12-29 01:10:20 PM  
Well, then suggest that the salary of all policemen directly employed by your company be doubled. Volunteer to cut your salary in half to do it.

I took no raises in the last 2 years because people where I worked were working for nearly 1/10th of what I made. And I know you are being flippant about the police officers being employed through different avenues but the capital system that permits this exploitation is part of the same machine- one made up of cultural and intellectual elitism over value of labor.
 
2004-12-29 01:11:45 PM  
lunchinlewis: Nobody said the ramp workers, machinists, ticket agents are doing their job bad. Nobody is saying to fire them.

Did you miss something? They didn't come to work - they didn't do their job in the first place.

mutilato: It is just another tool we have.

It has also been proven to be the best tool we have. ;)
/and freedom - add that to your list for me :)
 
2004-12-29 01:13:25 PM  
mutilato: the capital system that permits this exploitation

Policemen aren't exploited, there's a multi-year waiting list to be one. Seriously, I have no idea what it is that you are trying to say. Do you want to be the judge of who is worth what amount of money? Do you think that you are a better judge of that than every single economist in the world? Here's a tip for you - people get paid exactly what they are worth. You might want to think that that's not true, but it is. If supply exceeds demand, the price will drop. That is true of everything, including labor.
 
2004-12-29 01:14:55 PM  
hillbillypharmacist: free, but exploited.
having liberty, but no money.


How exploited? What do you mean by exploited?

As for me, give me liberty or give me death.

I am not a piece of warm flesh that is just looking for sustenance and a roof from the moment I'm born until the day I die.

Life is to be seized and reveled in. To be enjoyed and pushed for all it's worth just for the joy one receives from accomplishment and the rewards therein.

When you try to tie me to your alter of self sacrifice in order to pursue your notion of "social justice", you commit evil. You have no claim on my life as I have none on yours. All exchanges that are not voluntary contracts are just plain wrong.
 
2004-12-29 01:16:06 PM  
It has also been proven to be the best tool we have.

Actually, to a subst of our population, it's been proven to be a frequently successful tool. The best tool we have is still our human compassion, tempered with wisdom and reason. It is an economic system, capable of creating injustice as easily as justice, enslavement as easily as freedom.

On that note, the south considered the abolition of slavery to represent a free market emperilment. The market encouraged slavery, jsut as it encourages addiction and profligate waste today.
 
2004-12-29 01:17:24 PM  
Do you want to be the judge of who is worth what amount of money?

No, I want the people who perform that labor to have a voice in that judgement, not just administration level workers whose bias towards administration level work is apparent. The unions provide this equality.
 
2004-12-29 01:20:06 PM  
mutilato:

If you are prepared to host an economic system within your moral imperative in place of "The welfare of others" then we will not ever see eye to eye.

Then we will never see eye to eye. You wish to sacrifice me to others. You wish to steal my life and my freedom for your morality of human sacrifice.

You are wrong.
 
2004-12-29 01:23:55 PM  
When you try to tie me to your alter of self sacrifice in order to pursue your notion of "social justice", you commit evil. You have no claim on my life as I have none on yours. All exchanges that are not voluntary contracts are just plain wrong.

you are correct in theory, but it's a shiatty way to run a country. how much would you sacrifice to pay teachers and cops a decent wage? is any sacrifice too much for you?

i'm not a proponent of marxism, i'm just asking for a strategic supplement for jobs that actually improve our society.

i'm not a piece of warm flesh either. but some people do need a warm place to stay, and i'd like to help them.

i don't have to help them. but i'm going to anyway.
 
2004-12-29 01:24:34 PM  
Then we will never see eye to eye. You wish to sacrifice me to others. You wish to steal my life and my freedom for your morality of human sacrifice.

??? No, I wish for you to see that the free market system is a system that can create injustice without the monitoring of human moralist, ethics, wisdom and compassion. The free market system, left to its own devices, sacrifices people's free will, lives and freedom frequently. It created slavery. We need to be vigilant.

Capitalism is not the natural state of man. in order for it to work, it requires a series of contractual relationships. Many far right radicals do not realize that those contracts are ALL important, not just the ones that service them and provide them with freedoms.
 
2004-12-29 01:25:49 PM  
mutilato: The unions provide this equality.

Here's what the unions provide:

Guaranteed raises, even if you are a lazy fark.
Can't get fired even if you do fark-all at work.
Night shift complains if the day shift gets donuts - NOT FAIR
People do only their own jobs, not helping out each other.

In short, it is a system guaranteeing failure. The only places that survive with union labor survive because even the union employees recognize that the contract is balls.

It sounds to me like you want to abolish the free market and have the government determine wages and benefits. That to me is beyond evil.
 
2004-12-29 01:29:38 PM  
It sounds to me like you want to abolish the free market and have the government determine wages and benefits. That to me is beyond evil.

Then you are not reading my posts. Please go back and read. In the current system, minus unions, people who work in non administrative or higher labor positions have no control whatsoever as to the assessment of value for their labor. There is a marked bias in this country to pay the pedigree of the person rather than the real world value of the work. This bias infects administrators who value labor lower than real world impact, thereby creating community vaccuums where work that is needed is done poorly or not at all.
 
2004-12-29 01:30:36 PM  
hillbillypharmacist: i don't have to help them. but i'm going to anyway.

And that is the right way. I help people and have/do give $10,000s of dollars to various organizations to help others.

But I will never call for the forced participation of others in such giving. I find it morally repugnant.

mutilato:

No, I wish for you to see that the free market system is a system that can create injustice without the monitoring of human moralist, ethics, wisdom and compassion.

Capitalism is the just system. Any system that calls for the sacrifice of one person for any number of other people is morally wrong. If you want to help out the unfortunate, do it through non-coercive agencies and persuasion.

Not through forced participation because your government appointed "ethicists" demand it.
 
2004-12-29 01:33:31 PM  
And, actually, it is my love of the free market system that encourages me to look at it for what it is- not an intransient ultimate good, but a tool to acheive freedom and prospertiy if used well and presided over by wisdom and humanity. Slavery, human trafficking, rampant descents into poverty, homelessness, addiction, worker exploitation, etc. are all artifacts of the free market system when it is implemented without human understanding.
 
2004-12-29 01:34:23 PM  
flucto: great post (2004-12-29 12:21:37 PM)

EatHam: bs. As an hourly wage, teachers get paid relatively well.

I can't believe I just read that. Are you serious? Are there really people out there that think like this?


brazil:

If the government did not have its political fingers in the business of schools, there would be some serious big money for teachers and seriously damn fine schools.

Not a chance. Our brand of capitalism values the here-and-now over the long term. Shareholders want results today, not in 5 years. CEOs make decisions accordingly, sometimes sacrificing the long term good for the short term. Education by its very nature is the exact opposite - sacrifice now for a better tomorrow. As the current state of our health care system amply demonstrates, capitalism is not the best answer in these situations.
 
2004-12-29 01:37:00 PM  
Capitalism is the just system. Any system that calls for the sacrifice of one person for any number of other people is morally wrong.

Exactly. Unchecked, capitalism does just this. Workers who perform valuable services that keep the entire system alive and fluid, functioning and usable by you, are sacrficied to an overarching administrative bias that considers their labor to be near valueless because they have complete control to do so. These people are sacrificed on a daily basis. going from 1 to 0 while the radical right complains about people potentially falling from 10 to 9 if they are forced to pay people true value for thier labor.
 
2004-12-29 01:37:56 PM  
EatHam:

Here's what the unions provide:

Guaranteed raises, even if you are a lazy fark.
Can't get fired even if you do fark-all at work.
Night shift complains if the day shift gets donuts - NOT FAIR
People do only their own jobs, not helping out each other.


You sir, obviously have no idea what you are talking about. That describes a small portion of the workforce, and is pure rhetoric. And it definitely not impossible to get fired. You are, however, somewhat protected from personal attacks/firing as a result of a disagreement with management. Go live in the real union world for a while, and come back and talk instead of repeating all of the conservative slander against unions.
 
2004-12-29 01:38:28 PM  
BigTuna:

I can't believe I just read that. Are you serious? Are there really people out there that think like this?

Absolutely, and this is coming from a guy who has a family full of teachers. Sure, the starting wage isn't great, but neither is the starting wage for any other field. Take in to account the vacation time that teachers get, the retirement plan, insurance, and everything else, and their compensation package is quite good.
 
2004-12-29 01:39:33 PM  
BigTuna:Our brand of capitalism values the here-and-now over the long term. Shareholders want results today, not in 5 years. CEOs make decisions accordingly, sometimes sacrificing the long term good for the short term

Which is why USAir is where it is today. Not by actions of their union workers, yet they are the only ones being asked to sacrifice.
 
2004-12-29 01:39:56 PM  
mutilato:

It is an economic system, capable of creating injustice as easily as justice, enslavement as easily as freedom.

Its a system that has completely clobbered every other system to date and we should be proud of it - not embarassed.

On that note, the south considered the abolition of slavery to represent a free market emperilment.

Actually you have a point - but you are missing something. The south didn't want a 'federal government' telling them how to do business. Luckly our government also established individuals rights (which were extended to blacks (and whites) in the gawdawful 14th amendment (different story)).

Point being its a great system and when combined with the liberties our government protects makes a winning combinatioin.

Slavery was wrong. We know that. Was it right before the 13th amendment. No. Should a few blimishes and abuse on the record be enought to discredit it? No.

/the 14th amendment sucks because it established an American citizen class below the government which is "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" more on that another day. Don't believe me check your passport... wtf is a Nationalist?
 
2004-12-29 01:40:28 PM  
2wheeljunkie: Go live in the real union world for a while

One of my major clients is the world's largest union employer. I do know what I'm talking about. I see it most days, and have seen it across the US in small towns and major cities.
 
2004-12-29 01:45:38 PM  
EatHam:

Take in to account the vacation time that teachers get, the retirement plan, insurance, and everything else, and their compensation package is quite good.

Then you take into account the unpaid hours of work before/after school, not to mention the daily emotional toll of dealing with hundreds of other people's out-of-control kids, and it suddenly goes right back to barely adequate. Education is the most important tool we have to shape the future, and yet the market has determined that teachers are less valuable than cops. The market once again betrays its bias for the short term over the long.
 
2004-12-29 01:46:09 PM  
Point being its a great system and when combined with the liberties our government protects makes a winning combinatioin.

Slavery was wrong. We know that. Was it right before the 13th amendment. No. Should a few blimishes and abuse on the record be enought to discredit it? No.


My point is that the same market forces that created slavery create wageslavery, human trafficking, worker abuse, civil rights abrdigements, addictions, etc. It's not only during the 1800s that we should be vigilant over corporations called uberoffenders by Thomas jefferson) and the unchecked hegemony of capitalism as a moral imperative, but NOW.

There are a series of contracts essential to the workings of our system. We need to examine those contracts and ensure that we operatewithin this framework if we hope to see capitalism survive. I know you think that it is bullettproof, but you need to ask yourself how many people become disenfranchised before ANY system falls. If we care about capitalism and the free market, we need to be vigilant and responsive to it as a wise and compassionate people.
 
2004-12-29 01:48:23 PM  
BigTuna:

Then you take into account the unpaid hours of work before/after school, not to mention the daily emotional toll of dealing with hundreds of other people's out-of-control kids,

You know what? I have to deal with a lot of idiots in my line of work too. Everyone does. I also read magazines, study for certifications, read books, and develop on my own time. Every profession has that type of thing. Not to mention that a shool day is not 8 hours, so there's a couple hours to play with there anyway.

Also, the locality determines teachers' salaries. Out by me (and back in OH too), teachers and police get paid relatively similarly.
 
2004-12-29 01:48:43 PM  
2wheeljunkie:

You management types need to pull your heads out of your asses and realize that without labor, your job is worth nothing.

LOL - I'm management! Whoo hoo! I just got promoted on fark! :)

...And you workerbees should relize there are 20 people knocking on the managers door ever week looking at your job. So GBTW!
 
2004-12-29 01:50:50 PM  
The market once again betrays its bias for the short term over the long.

yes, this is the second of the market biases. The first is the bias for administrative or higher labor over all other. and the Third is called the "truthout" bias. The market tends to support products via whatever method is most effective. This means that, in cases where more knowledge about a product increases sales, the market creates pools of product knowledge that permit the user to make a free and informned decision. In cases where truthout is disadvantageous to sales (tobacco products, for example, where it has been proven that the more people know about them, the less they consume of them), the market biss specifically discourages information from being made available to consumers. This keeps the consumer from having the freedom to make a real decision.
 
2004-12-29 01:55:31 PM  
mutilato:

I know you think that it is bullettproof

It is, at this point, rather bullettproof... no economic system in the history of the world has come close to the gains we have made in the last 200 years.

but you need to ask yourself how many people become disenfranchised before ANY system falls.

What you aren't realizing is when you think it fails - it actually works for someone else. Ever wonder why stock goes up when people get laid off... its the yen and the yang my friend. Find out how to be on the positive side all the time and you'll be dining with Warren Buffet every night.
 
2004-12-29 01:56:38 PM  
ok. Thanks for the fascinating conversation, Seth_J, EatHam, brazil, BigTuna, and everyone else. I need to actually perform some labor now. You guys have a great day.
 
2004-12-29 01:57:36 PM  
EatHam: You know what? I have to deal with a lot of idiots in my line of work too

So do I. Unless it's your job to be a foster parent for 150 kids whose parents expect you to do their jobs for them, you have no leg to stand on. If you are truly from a family of teachers, you must not spend much time listening to them. The responsibility that our teachers have is more than you and I together will ever be burdened with in our jobs.

Incidentally:

One of my major clients is the world's largest union employer.

That means your view of their union is through the eyes of management. Fair and balanced?
 
2004-12-29 01:59:07 PM  
EatHam: I do know what I'm talking about.

I don't think so. Do you really believe that disbanding American unions would be good for the economy? Would giving management the opportunity to cut wages/benefits without restraint be good for worker morale or the economy. Who would this benefit? At first it would be the execs that get a big fat bonus for cutting (payroll) expenses. Middle class discretionary spending would likely fall dramatically. The premium that I get as a union member over what other network techs make in the area is what allows me save for my retirement, have my motorcycle, do some home improvements, and go on a nice vacation every once in a while. If I had to find a new job right now, I'd likely have to take a 20%+ pay cut. I've worked my butt off and studied to get where I am, and the only place I've found that pays what I'm worth (almost) is the union. Just because I don't want to start my own business or deal with tons of meaningless meetings whilst wearing a suit doesn't mean that I should have to make a crappy wage.

there are 20 people knocking on the managers door ever week looking at your job.

I see some fat that could be cut.
 
2004-12-29 01:59:20 PM  
Are they hiring seasonal workers? Because I'm saving up for a pie-in-the-sky.
 
2004-12-29 01:59:57 PM  
BigTuna: That means your view of their union is through the eyes of management.

No it's not, it's on the floor with all the union people.

If you are truly from a family of teachers, you must not spend much time listening to them.

Hey, you'll never hear me say that teachers are overpaid. I just don't think that their pay is quite the travesty other people think it is. IMO, the problem has a lot more to do with appreciation and being given the ability to do their jobs without being overridden than it does with pay.
 
2004-12-29 02:03:01 PM  
2wheeljunkie:

I don't think so. Do you really believe that disbanding American unions would be good for the economy?

Depends. I think that some unions have outlived their usefulness, and some are far worse for the employees than not having one would be. I think it is bullshiat that you can't effectively opt out of a union (sure, you can, but you still have to pay your dues and waive union benefits). But you would never get me to say that I think they should be outlawed.
 
2004-12-29 02:13:02 PM  
mutilato: I need to actually perform some labor now. You guys have a great day.

Oh crap..work...

Take care..
 
2004-12-29 02:18:30 PM  
brazil
But I will never call for the forced participation of others in such giving. I find it morally repugnant.

i don't find it repugnant. money isn't a liberty, it is a tool. you can't take it with you when you die, and it has nothing to do with your character.

so i don't feel bad 'coercing' people to pay for things that make our country a better place to live. if we don't, unchecked capitalism will hurt a lot more people than it will help.
 
2004-12-29 02:22:29 PM  
hillbillypharmacist:

money isn't a liberty, it is a tool. you can't take it with you when you die,

Speech is also a tool. And I might not be able to take my money with me after I die, but I can give it to my family.
 
2004-12-29 02:55:21 PM  
No, YOU are a tool.

/Channeling inner five-year-old
 
2004-12-29 02:59:53 PM  
EatHam
speech is a right enumerated in the constitution. keeping all your money isn't.
 
2004-12-29 03:09:47 PM  
EatHam: But you would never get me to say that I think they should be outlawed.

Fair enough. I certainly have my gripes, but in general, I think the $600 or so that I pay in dues every year is a bargain. And remember, while people complain about unions being "socialistic", every contract is voted on. Sorry I was kinda rough on you at first.
 
2004-12-29 03:43:42 PM  
hillbillypharmacist:

i don't find it repugnant. money isn't a liberty, it is a tool. you can't take it with you when you die, and it has nothing to do with your character.

Theft is always morally repugnant. And money is the distillation of one's life in trade for time. You find someone that wishes to trade with you and money is the medium of trade. In fact, money is one of the greatest inventions of all time. It does not spoil and it can be exchanged for anything.

It is a reflection of your character. You must perform some service that others find valuable and useful. You might not like it. But that's the way it is.

So the money I earn by making myself valuable to others is my life in a concertized form. When you wish to take it, what you are really saying is you want to steal my life.

I'm saying that my life is my own. I sacrifice for no man nor will I accept the sacrifices of others.

I will trade, and will give to others that I feel compassion for. You violate every concept of human liberty when you transgress this.

You may see some of my actions and say, you are sacrificing! That is only because you do not understand free will and my right to spend my life as I see fit.

Stop trying to supplant my inviolateness of my mind with your force. It is such action that leads to the misery and destruction of man.
 
2004-12-29 03:53:05 PM  
Just to reinsert some topicality here before it goes out to the masses, the AFA has weighed in with some facts about the sickouts in Philly:

Mollie McCarthy, the president of the Association of Flight Attendants chapter in Philadelphia, said 238 flight attendants called out sick on Christmas Eve this year, compared to 261 in 2003. She said 306 called out sick on Christmas Day this year, compared to 298 in 2003.

sourced from here
 
2004-12-29 04:15:39 PM  
that's a dramatic answer. i'm not trying to 'supplant the inviolateness of your mind'. i just want you to pay your taxes, and i want my taxes to pay for things that will actually help us instead of hurt us.

taxes aren't theft. if you're wanting taxation to be viewed as theft, good luck.

the government performs a service that most find valuable and useful. You might not like it. But that's the way it is.

the fact is that we have to give the government money in order to live under its protection and enjoy its services. right, wrong- it doesn't matter. this is how our country is set up, and this is how it is run.

if Objectivism was realized in reality, you might find that like Marxism, it will fail. capitalism on its own begets slavery and greed.

money is an abstraction. i value my actions, my words, my knowledge. money not so much. money is a practicality, like pooping. we poop in a toilet, and we pay our taxes.
 
2004-12-29 04:28:54 PM  
hillbillypharmacist: that's a dramatic answer.

Why say this if not to try and diminish my point?

taxes aren't theft.

We are talking about what functions a government performs that are legitimate. Why would you bring this up in this way? It's a red herring. I never said stop paying taxes.

if Objectivism was realized in reality, you might find that like Marxism, it will fail.

You don't really understand Objectivism well enough our you would not make this statement.

money is a practicality, like pooping.

You either did not understand what I said, or you just want to poop on it. :)
 
2004-12-29 04:43:47 PM  
Isn't this the definition of "scab"?
 
2004-12-29 04:45:10 PM  
To all the dumb shiats who would work for free:

Owned biatches, ha ha ha !!!
 
2004-12-29 04:46:50 PM  
Why all the union hating? Unions are just people organizing to look out for themselves. Captialism requires this. Companies certainly organize to look out for themselves, just like countries do. The one less that you can teach any anarchist is that the lonely man is the weak man. Further, capitalism is made stronger through competition, and the workers competing with their paymasters is a good system, as this allows a realistic and fluid balance between organizational profit and labor wage.
 
2004-12-29 04:48:14 PM  
Did these guys get the idea from the Simpsons?

/Trash of The Titans
 
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