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(MSN Autos)   Ravaging assault on U.S. patriotism   (yellowtimes.org) divider line 350
    More: Interesting  
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7827 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Mar 2002 at 2:10 PM (12 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



350 Comments   (+0 »)
   

Archived thread
 
2002-03-01 08:57:01 AM
I knew this would be accepted on reg.Fark!
 
2002-03-01 02:14:07 PM
total Lunatic.
 
2002-03-01 02:14:18 PM
WRONG TAG ALERT:
 
2002-03-01 02:14:23 PM
now why didn't this get a tag?
 
bug
2002-03-01 02:15:28 PM
no wonder we haven't heard from Rei in awhile.... that is ALOT of typing
 
2002-03-01 02:15:30 PM
There is a wonderful scene in ?The Gulag Archipelago.? After a speech by Stalin, the audience applauds and applauds and
cannot stop applauding. Everyone waits for his or her neighbors to stop before stopping, only the neighbors also do not stop. The
applause threatens to continue forever. "Why? Because NKVD men prowl the aisles, looking for anyone who stops applauding.
Without making any outlandish, inappropriate comparisons between Bush's America and Stalin's Russia, there is still a very uncomfortable parallel between that frightening historical scene and recent events in the U.S., especially the State of the Union address."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...too late...
 
2002-03-01 02:15:35 PM

Even better....
 
2002-03-01 02:17:43 PM
People are coonts.
 
2002-03-01 02:18:04 PM
It IS interesting. There are some valid points, but it's still a rant. As ferally loud as he accuses America of being.
 
2002-03-01 02:18:11 PM
Can't we have less obvious flamebait submissions?
 
2002-03-01 02:18:13 PM
In other news, Lee Greenwood still doesn't have to work for a living.
 
2002-03-01 02:18:26 PM
I won't even give this the satisfaction of getting read considering the source.
 
2002-03-01 02:18:41 PM
I don't have time to finish reading (class), but I do have a question.

Does this guy where an aluminum foil hat, perchance? Or...
 
2002-03-01 02:18:55 PM
Article too long.... needs a Cliff Notes version.

Line that stood out before I called it a day

"What a big fat disappointment America is today..."

Great. Then all you foreigners planning to come here and score a green card to try and achieve the American Dream , stay home. Move on immigrants, nothing to see here.
 
2002-03-01 02:19:09 PM
The truth hurts.

I notice Canada was excluded from the rant. Good for us.
 
2002-03-01 02:19:14 PM
Yeah, uh, I don't want to make any outlandish comparisons between the Gulag and the State of the Union addrss, but that scene in The Gulag Archipelago is a lot like the State of the Union Address.
 
2002-03-01 02:19:17 PM
zzzzz . .
 
2002-03-01 02:19:39 PM
The truth hurts.

I notice Canada was excluded from the rant. Good for us.
Although, we're just a few televangelists short of being American.
 
2002-03-01 02:19:41 PM
If I see the yellow box. I ignore. Move on.
 
2002-03-01 02:20:07 PM
A few years ago, the world's richest country suddenly decided to stop paying U.N. dues, ignoring its long-standing treaty obligations. With an arrogant wave of the hand, it dismissed its responsibilities and blamed the U.N. for waste and bureaucracy.
Ah. That's right, UN actions never involve billions of dollars in American hardware and soldiers. Silly me.
 
2002-03-01 02:20:11 PM
What is this guy's problem? Be a man and leave America if it represents everything you hate. No one is forcing you to live here (unlike your favorite communist dictatorships). I hear people in France are a perfect match for your idiotology.

John Chuckman must be the guy in the "Mangina" photos I have seen passed around the net.
 
2002-03-01 02:20:32 PM
Worst. Editorial. Ever. Transitions? Cohesiveness? Hello?
 
2002-03-01 02:21:47 PM
What the...? I mean, first we get a Gennifer Flowers story from NewsMax, then we get this? Who's trying to stir things up today? It's like throwing rocks at a hornets nest.
 
2002-03-01 02:23:02 PM
Just some noise to cancel out all the farking NewsMax posts.
 
2002-03-01 02:24:06 PM
Great editorial from someone who thinks on their own. Stupid farkers.
 
2002-03-01 02:25:52 PM
He can't leave America because it's the only country that's free enough to allow him to attack it and not lock him up.

Funny how these wanna-be-anarchists / sociopaths / extremists / power hungry / want *any* government other than the one that allows them to actually speak their minds.

Kinda reminds me of how N. Korea would have student uprising *pro*democracy... and get shot/killed/disappear and then students in S. Korea protesting for communism and they get benefits of free media press.
 
2002-03-01 02:25:57 PM
>Be a man and leave America if it represents everything you >hate.

Uh-huh. Be a man and run from a country instead of addressing what's wrong with it, and trying to affect change. Very manly.
 
2002-03-01 02:26:04 PM
"Yellow Times?" They should change their name to "Red Times."
 
2002-03-01 02:27:10 PM
Yellow Times.org
Appropriately named.
Piss spewer.
 
2002-03-01 02:27:13 PM
hahahahahahah this guy's a complete farkwit.

he's saying there's a clear parallel between bush's america and stalin's russia, and his example to prove this is the forced applause at the end of "the gulag archipelago" speech. if he's saying that those with dissenting opinions are stifled, why is he being allowed to write this shiat drivel?
 
2002-03-01 02:27:57 PM
Cancelling out NewsMax... Uhm... there's always more YellowTimes posts than NewsMax posts.

I see both as too extreme to be legitamate voices.

They are both extremists with their own personal goals in mind. Usually involving ruling the planet and a harem of little boys.
 
2002-03-01 02:28:07 PM
Wrong tagline. Should read "Ravaging assault on U.S. arrogance"

*runs for cover*
 
2002-03-01 02:28:40 PM
Good article...he has strong, valid points that most people are too brainwashed or simply too scared to recognize (from a neutral position) as facts.
 
2002-03-01 02:29:30 PM
Hey if it wasn't for U.S. arrogance, we'd only have French arrogance...
 
2002-03-01 02:29:33 PM
When I took journalism classes in college, I learned that "yellow journalism" was a phrase that was coined around the beginning of the 20th century to refer to the inflammatory little rag sheets that were basically a lot of unfounded rumors and scandal-baiting. I have to agree, that's a bad choice for a name.
 
2002-03-01 02:29:54 PM
In my mind, patriotism would be resisting people who whore our system and fark up our world standing, not kissing their asses. Calling out politicians for being crooked assholes and speaking out against it is not anti-Patriotism. Supporting them is.
 
2002-03-01 02:30:25 PM

NO ONE bashes America in front of Joe Don Baker! You guys stay here, I'm gonna teach this punk a lesson!

Oh Joe Don, so brave...
 
2002-03-01 02:30:59 PM
Dalai Lama: What? He is saying that Stalin's Russia is the same as the US today..but it's not...no yes it is...He doesn't know what he is talking about.
 
2002-03-01 02:31:31 PM
Toupsie: "Be a man and leave America if it represents everything you hate"

I should say the same thing to all anti-abortionists, people who want to censor albums, or people who believe you should only vote if you own land.


America represents different things to different people. It changes. About the only people who should leave are the ones who think America specifically represents *any*thing other than an experiment in representative democracy.

The article is over-wrought. We're not even at McCarthyism yet, let alone gulagsville. But you'd have to be a fool to see that we're not creeping in that direction.
 
2002-03-01 02:31:31 PM
Icenine~

I bow before your words. Although simple, they reflect something that has never benn put so succinctly.

Thank you.
 
2002-03-01 02:32:06 PM
I've got one word for that guy:

LEAVE
 
2002-03-01 02:32:30 PM
Adolph Hitler - bodycount: 6 million "Holocaust"Joseph Stalin - bodycount 20 million "Red Purges"I thought the left was saying Bush was like their nemisis Hitler, but now he's more like their hero, Stalin. So which is it?
 
2002-03-01 02:33:09 PM
Funkychuck,

You and Joe Don Baker are a true voice of reason and a blessing to these fark forums.
 
2002-03-01 02:33:18 PM
Shuh: Yes...
 
2002-03-01 02:33:40 PM
I'll never live down the shame of luring Elian's mom to her death with our "open arms for Cuban refugees" policy. What as bunch of jagoffs we are for making our country more desireable than a communist dictatorship.
 
2002-03-01 02:33:43 PM
You gotta love when Fark links John Chuckman, author of such fine Yellowtimes articles such as ''The devil and George Bush'', ''Why Republicans have no sense of, and "Inspiration from the top: Observations on the president addressing the nation"
. Truely an American icon...
 
2002-03-01 02:34:27 PM
Funny how everybody just closes their ears and go "nyayayayay" and ignores some very valid points about how this country will take absolutely NO blame for any of its fark ups.
 
2002-03-01 02:34:49 PM
What a big fat disappointment America is today. An affluent, noisy, moral netherworld. A place where fundamentalist pitchmen in blow-dried coifs and Pan-Cake makeup plead to fill the moral void, but only add to the noise.

Don't forget the fundamentalist pitchmen in hemp clothes standing out on the street complaining about the spotted owl and hamburger meat and how the U.S. should raise taxes to 65% and give everyone health care so you can go to a doctor making minimum wage who will diagnose your flu symptoms as a hangnail, and then push you out the door into the garbage lined streets of a third world country.

There are people who want to see the U.S. as just that. A third world country. Why? Because they're jealous. Plain and simple as that.

Downcaste exactly... Are there people roaming around the streets beating up anyone who protests america? No. The reason that 99.99% of the population go about their daily business is because "Hey, I think things are good the way they are. Sure there's some screwups, but things are good in the end."
 
2002-03-01 02:35:16 PM
"Axe-grinding" John Chuckman. Sheesh. Tell me all Canadians aren't like that, please.
 
2002-03-01 02:35:21 PM
While not agreeing on the general opinion put forth by this guy, he does bring up some valid points. As great of a country as we are, there is always room for improvement. It isn't idiotic to try and change things, it means you care about the country.

Now this guy is obviously going a bit to far in many of his references, but a lot he mentions has been a problem for some time and looks to stay that way for awhile. Rigged elections, campaign contributions from unethical sources, corporate manipulation of our society, and many other things need to be truly looked at and changed.

WE are the greatest country in the world as far as I'm concerned, but that doesn't mean we don't have problems and issues that need to be changed, and it doesn't mean we get to ignore these things just because we are that great of a country...
 
2002-03-01 02:35:55 PM
3rd link should read "Why Republicans have no sense of humor."
 
2002-03-01 02:37:35 PM
*stretches fist out in front of himself and proceeds to point his thumb toward the sky*

I will let FunkyChuck live. He amuses me.

Hey mods, slow day eh?
 
2002-03-01 02:38:19 PM
Well, I will give him credit for copping to the fact that the Kennedy election was won by voter fraud. Mayor Daly in Chicago got a few thousand corpses to vote Democrat. Swung the Illinois, and the election, to Kennedy. Of course, Nixon always said he would've gone through with the Bay of Pigs, and years later it turned out that Kruschev would've nuked the U.S. if the U.S. invaded Cuba.
 
2002-03-01 02:38:55 PM
"He can't leave America because it's the only country that's free enough to allow him to attack it and not lock him up." - Wise words, Dickhead. Everyone else in the world has to grovel in the mud don't they?

Well thank god someone's said it. Any sympathy I felt for the USA after September 11th rapidly disappeared in the hysterical, flag-waving nationalism that followed which rapidly turned to xenophobia.
 
2002-03-01 02:38:58 PM
Potbreath: Agreed, but damn this guy is saying that Bush is Stalin and that we are afraid to stop clapping...'cause then we got tossed in the gulag or worse we are killed!! Bah...

Not to mention the article is a little hard to follow with it lacking transitions and all...
 
2002-03-01 02:40:25 PM
Bizkicka I am with you on that one.

Shuh America - bodycount: 10 million "Foreign Policy"
 
2002-03-01 02:40:25 PM
Makes you wonder which of John Chuckman's uncles molested him when he was 4 while humming the star spangled banner.

Maybe his daddy didn't love him. Or his daddy loved him TOO much.

I would love to see a psychiatrist look into the history of extremists on all sides and see what event in their life triggered their fanaticism.

From Fallwell to Chuckman: What makes an extremist Extreme

And I want the *real* reasons. Not the "Oh I saw a cow slaughtered when I was 10 and said 'No America or Meat for me!'"
 
2002-03-01 02:40:49 PM
Ok, poorly written? Sure. Inflammatory? Definitely. Still the point remains that when most non Americans read the editorial they'll be thinking to themselves that it certainly has a ring of truth about it. Most people in the world know the short comings of their country. And every country has stuff that keeps it from being perfect. Don't you think you get into to trouble when you overlook these defects? Think of why mighty empires in the past have fallen... it's because they let problems get beyond a point of no return, and the only way to do that is to harbour that sense of perfection or invincibility you can trick yourself into.
 
2002-03-01 02:40:50 PM
(yawn)

He makes all his valid points go away by ranting instead of giving us reasoned analysis and supported facts.

I agree with some of what he has to say (esp. re: the increasingly jingoistic tone found on tv), but cripes buddy, think before you rant.

Has he never seen a State of the Union address? It's ALWAYS a clap-a-thon.

Besides, this guy is from Canada.
 
TV
2002-03-01 02:41:04 PM
how dare someone criticize the united states.
 
2002-03-01 02:42:20 PM
The case of the Cuban boy Elian provided what may be the most remarkable example of this kind of obtuse and arrogant behavior. An ill-considered policy of granting automatic refugee status to all Cubans who made it in flimsy boats to American shores, part of an incessant campaign of hatred against Castro, lured the boy's mother to her death, as it had lured many others.

What? No mention of how poorly Communist Cuba treats it's own people to make them even *attempt* to leave in a flimsy boat?

That proves how one sided he is.
 
2002-03-01 02:43:18 PM
"how dare someone criticize the united states.
Yeah... this nation needs more whiney biatches... that's what made us great!
 
2002-03-01 02:44:02 PM
Want to clear up a point with people who do not bother to read for themselves but online repeat what they hear on TV/radio.

Stalinism != Communism
 
2002-03-01 02:44:11 PM
It seemed like a fairly truthfull article to me. I don't think he was trying to say that we are exactly like Stalinistic Russia as someone earlier said, I think he is just saying we have a few things in common.
I don't get all you people who tell him to leave, or to go to some other communist country with the reds that he will love. I think it's pretty obvious he wants Americans to realize that we are turning our country in to a piss-hole and that we should stop. America IS slowly declining in all respects. The author is trying to get the point across that we could do better, and that is what we should strive towards. If the "Like it or leave it" people had there way America would be a totaly un-free country. "Like it or leave it" takes away our right to change what is wrong with our country. There is nothing wrong with not liking America in it's current state. I currently am not extremely fond of my own country. Of course, I like it better than most other countries, but that still does not empower "goodness" in America. What I fear is that the Author's style of writing is so obviously coercive that it will only re-enforce his ideals in people who follow his point of view, whilst alienating the opposing party members. Clearly, the author should find a way to motivate all viewers to support his belief. So, let's not bash this guy for being un-patriotic, stupid, or un-American. He is just one of the non-complacent Americans. He wants a better America. The truly stupid people are the ones who are complacent with a lackluster America.
 
2002-03-01 02:44:22 PM
phix-it hahahah exactly. these wonderful leftists seem to believe that patriotism is a horrible, evil thing right now, but that's the only thing that keeps a socialist/communist country moving. it's definitely not the strive to succeed or live comfortably. i guess they have to pat each other on the back and do a bunch of patriotistic dick-sucking, saying "Boy, aren't we great?! These people with absolutely no skills are no less valuable than this neurosurgeon. They're completely interchangable!!!" It's just disgusting. I think that humans are generally equal pieces of shiat, but i do know that a good brain is much harder to find than a good hard laboring back. (but that's an evil-right-wing-conspiracy-capitalistic-white-man point of view) i know. i'm a heartless evil bastard. i've heard it before.
 
2002-03-01 02:45:24 PM
Tarl3k

It would be nice from time to time to hear someone actually say something nice about the US. Its always biatch, biatch, complain, complain. If you don't like the US, don't our tax dollars and please, please don't use any invention that was created in America. Otherwise, it sounds like a spoiled, little biatch.

Go Joe Don Baker! A real American hero!
 
2002-03-01 02:45:50 PM
TV: It isn't that he is criticizing the US, it is the way he is doing it and the ranting way in which he presents himself...

The US political system has plenty of problems (campaign contributions anyone), but damn...this guy goes WAY off the deep end saying Bush == Stalin
 
2002-03-01 02:46:34 PM


BOO HOO.... Jerk me a river, buddy.
 
2002-03-01 02:46:50 PM
It's time for American political and military disengagement from foreign affairs. Bring our boys home, damnit.

No matter what we do, someone will complain. It's best to let sleeping dogs lie and improve the quality of life within the USA.

Regards,
Shawn Pickrell
 
2002-03-01 02:47:00 PM
How utterly juvenile.
 
2002-03-01 02:48:09 PM
god bless america and how easy it is to get drugs here
not a day goes by i dont thank the good lord for america
 
2002-03-01 02:49:15 PM
Downcaste: I would probably use the phrase confused rather than "heartless evil bastard". I'm sure you've ran this "communist country experiment" in your head several times. But I suspect that gathering real data would be difficult seeing as no true socialist form of communism has ever actually occurred in the modern world. What we witness in Russia, China and Cuba is more akin to Fascism than anything else. It's all academic anyhow as communism would have trouble actually existing on a large scale... humans are too greedy to pull it off.
 
Mon
2002-03-01 02:49:50 PM
w00t right on bradbrad..

i don't think patriotism is evil, just a little blinding. most people just don't choose to see it that way... but, ahh, america and our freedome of choice.. =)
 
EZ
2002-03-01 02:51:12 PM
I agree with spaZkid. Everyone who does not agree with us should not be allowed to live in this country. If you disagree with the politics of the current leaders you should not be allowed to live here. This so called freedom the founding fathers spoke of was all left wing hippy-dippy tree hugger bullshuck anyhow.

I've said it before and it sort of applies here
"Those who give up Liberty for the sake of Security deserve neither Liberty or Security"
 
2002-03-01 02:51:32 PM
I think this article is one of the most accurate written about the USA. I'd also like to add that part of the problem is the lack of political sophistication in the working class ranks.
But the USA is a relatively young country, perhaps in another 100 years it will mature like a good wine.
 
2002-03-01 02:51:33 PM
Who the hell cares what this cry baby thinks, the world is farked up, the only difference is that Canada will do nothing about it except complain and point fingers, it takes courage to try somethings, even if the result is horrific, atleast there was an attempt. Here is something that is a sure bet...

Don't try and you will FAIL 100% of the time; Guaranteed!

So, until i see some folks in Canada offering suggestions and actions to fix the world, he can take that pacafist a$$ back up into the hills and have hamster s3x with Brian Adams!
 
2002-03-01 02:51:36 PM
I think this guy needs:
http://people.debian.org/~branden/official_motto.jpg
 
2002-03-01 02:52:29 PM
I used to believe in Isolationism. It always seems like a good idea.

The U.S. was isolationist just before WWI.

The U.S. was isolationist just before WWII.

Sept 10th I was also a Democrat.
 
2002-03-01 02:53:12 PM
I am just curious about how many of you constant complainers actually get out to the voting polls. Remember, this is the United States: For The People, By The People. You have the power, but do you exercise it?
 
43%
2002-03-01 02:53:24 PM
everybody is entitled to their opinion.

if he feels that strongly about it, though, he should do more than just biatch. He did have some reasonable points, though. He must live in a perfect country.

Oh wait, he lives in Canada: oppressors of french canadians.

I stand by my opinion that a country whose poor people die of obesity is ok by me.
 
2002-03-01 02:54:00 PM
I am just curious about how many of you constant complainers actually get out and vote. Remember, this is the United States: For The People, By The People. You have the power, but do you exercise it?
 
2002-03-01 02:54:20 PM
If anyone actually believes the repugnant crap coming from that Canadians' mouth they should have their head examined. Canadians should be embarassed (more than they already are) by the trash this jackass spews. Fark them...Fark them all!! Yellow times...ain't it the truth!!
 
2002-03-01 02:54:33 PM
I now draw your attention to this Calvin and Hobbes comic strip and please notice the last frame. Brilliant words from Calvin.



Also, this amused me:



Lookie me! I can use neato Photoshop Filters!
 
2002-03-01 02:55:16 PM
Well, if America *isn't* going out there to other parts of the world and trying to be a good neighbor (generating oil revenues, trading, doing peacekeeping/DMZ-enforcement missions, among other things), wouldn't we just become isolationist again? I mean, we did that once, after World War I. And it took an ass-whoopin' on Pearl Harbor to break us out of that "we don't ever have to deal with the rest of the world" illusion. I think this guy might want to make some *suggestions,* rather than just rants.
 
2002-03-01 02:55:18 PM
Stpickrell:

Surprisingly a lot of countries wouldn't mind that approach. But I'm afraid the US won't actually do that until they're totally self sufficient for all raw materials and manufacturing within their own borders or those of trading partners in which they have confidence of continued stability.
 
2002-03-01 02:55:19 PM
Well, I'm going to go back and look at the comments, now. I wonder what Harmonia/Goatman264 said? I'm sure I will have to be scraped up off the floor in surprise whenever I read whatever it is he/they said.
 
2002-03-01 02:56:58 PM
FrankApollo,

Couldn't be more true.
 
2002-03-01 02:57:29 PM
WHAT!?!?!?!?!?!? Nothing!!! =(
 
2002-03-01 02:57:44 PM
anyone care to outline the difference between patriotism and bigotry?
 
2002-03-01 02:58:29 PM
Last vote here in NM only 6%!!! of the voting population turned up...pitiful.
 
2002-03-01 02:59:09 PM
This is probably a stupid question, but is yellowtimes.org named that because of the term "yellow journalism" used to describe propaganda during the days of Teddy Roosevelt?
 
2002-03-01 02:59:15 PM
If Canada keeps this up, we'll just have to stop exporting our pollution to you.

Why does the 51st state hate us so much? ;)
 
2002-03-01 03:00:20 PM
I wonder what Harmonia/Goatman264 said?

harmonia... now there's someone who can get flamed to all hell without going anywhere near a thread. it's kind of sad actually... almost like he's got anti-groupies.
 
2002-03-01 03:00:31 PM
IFeelNothing:

Maybe you'd like to explain the similairities instead of posting obvious trollage.
 
2002-03-01 03:02:13 PM
No, we were most assuredly not isolationist before World War II.

Otherwise, why did we make the Destroyer Deal, Lend-Lease as well as slap an embargo on Japan?

FDR wanted war. He got it.

Keeping America first,
Shawn Pickrell
 
2002-03-01 03:02:28 PM
is appropriately named.
Yellow, as in "cowardly." Yellow, as in yellow journalism. Yellow, as in the same color as urine.
 
2002-03-01 03:02:37 PM
42.5%
Oh wait, he lives in Canada: oppressors of french canadians.

Listen you child, we opress French Canadians? thats why our Prime Minister is French Canadian.

Your a prime example of the accuracy of this article.
 
2002-03-01 03:03:00 PM
43%:

Yes, one of the things that troubles me is the way we've deal with the French Canadians in the past. However things are looking better. The election of the Bloc Quebecois to parliament (originally as the official opposition no less) served as yet another wake up call to Canadians. I haven't heard much in the way of anti-Quecec ramblings that I can recall recently. And just after the Olympics, the Bloc, which usually will only congratulate French Canadian athletes, congratulated all Canadian atheletes on their winter Olympics performance. I think it's getting better. I think the dumbasses we had to educate about Lower Canada's role in creating this country are either starting to get it or lose interest. So my country is still evolving... and that gives me hope for the future.
 
2002-03-01 03:03:07 PM
Maybe you'd like to explain the similairities instead of posting obvious trollage.

there is nothing to explain. i think they're the same thing. i would like to know if there is any real difference.
 
2002-03-01 03:04:20 PM
Oh? What negative comment did I make about Harmonia, IFeelNothing?
 
2002-03-01 03:04:37 PM
I Feel Nothing: "anyone care to outline the difference between patriotism and bigotry?"
Why don't you ask a family who lost someone in the WTC. I'm sure they would be happy to enlighten you.
 
2002-03-01 03:06:30 PM
Why don't you ask a family who lost someone in the WTC. I'm sure they would be happy to enlighten you.

isn't there a macro for this by now?

your response has absolutely nothing to do with my question.
 
2002-03-01 03:08:16 PM
Shuh:

Nice move! I'm sure that would also get you out of the way of a high and inside Randy Johnson fast ball.
 
2002-03-01 03:08:51 PM
Oh, pooh. I have to go!!! I'll have to read the response to my query later (if I DO get back, that is).
 
2002-03-01 03:09:15 PM
He talks a good game, and sure, Most Americans should be more responsible and more humble. But for all his whining, for all his complaints, America is still one of the few places that one can say all those things. So we are cocky, are the British and French not? Are Isrealis not stubborn? Is Canada..well ok, Canada is fine, except for high taxes. But the point is that the system that we embrace, and the sucessful nations and races embrace, however flawed, overbearing, rude, is the one that works best. The western world for the most part, as well as Japan, Australia and New Zealand embrace learning, art, science, rights, freedom and free enterprise. As for the author, he can type on his American made computer (unless its a sony laptop or something, but they have huge plants here in the States) on the American invented Internet until he is blue in the face. He is certainly welcome to move to Ethiopia, or the Sudan, or East Timor. Im sure people there are just so much better than we are.


As far as not paying UN dues, why pay for what doesnt work?
 
2002-03-01 03:09:25 PM
Boot20 wrote:
Last vote here in NM only 6%!!! of the voting population turned up...pitiful.

Are you serious?
 
2002-03-01 03:09:52 PM
John Chuckman must be sleeping with a mod on Fark.

I'm not saying, I'm just saying.
 
2002-03-01 03:11:13 PM
Main Entry: pa·tri·ot·ism
Pronunciation: 'pA-trE-&-"ti-z&m, chiefly British 'pa-
Function: noun
Date: circa 1726
: love for or devotion to one's country

Main Entry: big·ot·ry
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&-trE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ries
Date: circa 1674
1 : the state of mind of a bigot
2 : acts or beliefs characteristic of a bigot

Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, hypocrite, bigot
Date: 1661
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
- big·ot·ed /-g&-t&d/ adjective
- big·ot·ed·ly adverb

See the difference? Love and devotion don't necessarily equate intolerance and obstinance... Patriots can be bigots and bigots can be patriots, but the two are NOT the same.
 
2002-03-01 03:11:56 PM
Kev3d:

So you're saying that free speech should only be extended to those who agree with every action that the government of the US takes?
 
2002-03-01 03:12:34 PM
I Feel Nothing: "your response has absolutely nothing to do with my question."

Well how about this:Patriotism.Bigotry

"That depends on what your definition of the word 'is' is..." -- William Jefferson Clinton.
 
2002-03-01 03:12:37 PM
Also, what I think you're grabbing for is not patriotism, but nationalism. There is also a difference there. A huge one.
 
2002-03-01 03:13:35 PM
Kev3d
As far as not paying UN dues, why pay for what doesnt work?

What famous American say, "If your not part of the solution your part of the problem?", or maybe a Canadian wrote it for an American?
 
2002-03-01 03:13:43 PM


(If that doesn't work: http://a188.g.akamaitech.net/f/188/920/1d/www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/ attack/images/newyork/10pm/ny_1.jpg)

Look at that image. Have you seen anything similiar coming out of any other country? I'm not talking about coming out of a war zone. Just out of what had been a normal day until that point. Until you have planes crashing into office buildings in your country, you really won't understand it.

All I can say to anyone who is biatching about Americans actually feeling proud about our country is FUC|< off. How dare we band together and stand proud after what was done to us?

We're supposed to be grovelling at this point. That's what the world wants, isn't it? "Bring the US to its knees so I can feel better about myself" they say.

Sorry... it didn't work.
 
2002-03-01 03:14:58 PM
Shuh , you ignorant tool, Stalin has never been a hero of the left. He killed 20 million people.
 
2002-03-01 03:15:33 PM
See the difference? Love and devotion don't necessarily equate intolerance and obstinance... Patriots can be bigots and bigots can be patriots, but the two are NOT the same.

sounds good to me. but the "love and devotion" has a rather ugly flipside. many americans seem to be of the attitude that foreigners' lives are somehow worth less than ours. which i think is absolutely awful and hypocritical.
 
2002-03-01 03:16:48 PM
Depressing article. All the more so because it's true.

Patriotism is a mental illness.

"...Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV
And you think you're so clever and classless and free
But you're still farking peasants as far as I can see
A working class hero is something to be..."
 
2002-03-01 03:17:22 PM
Wow, I guess Mr Chuckman has confused length with depth. What a one-sided diatribe! Americans by no means have cornered the market on being assholes, that seems to be a side-effect of being human.

Mr C's premise seems to be: I don't hate you even though you are an evil, capitalist, amoral, bigoted, ignorant, wasteful, arrogant, murderous pig and I spit on everything you hold dear but, again, I don't hate you. How comforting.

It is ironic that the society Mr Chuckman so detests is also the one that will put up with his extremist ideas. So I say stay here, keep up your anti-Americanism, burn a flag if you feel like it, continue talking crap about your countrymen because as long as your voice can be heard that is the greatest counter-argument that can be made against what you are saying. Just don't expect many of us to agree with you.
 
2002-03-01 03:17:27 PM
We were isolationists before WWI, but that does not mean we were not heavily involved. There is a damn good reason we didn't join any sides or put forth any agenda before WWI. We wanted to keep our hands free from any treaties. It worked out really well for us also. We entered the war at the very end, on the side we figured would be most benificial to our cause. If we hadn't been isolationistic and just jumped in, we may have well ended up on the losing side.
As for WWII, we were definitly not isolationists. We had pilots in China and Britain before Pearl Harbour. Pearl Harbour or an attack like it should have been suspected also. We handed Japan an ultimatum "Stop taking terretories in soth east Asia, and stay away from Indonesia or we will stomp you!!". So, of course, Japan wanted to take Indonesia, so they figured they were better off taking the first punch. America, while not necessarily being allied with any other powers, has ALWAYS had a signifigant interest in what other world powers are doing.
 
2002-03-01 03:18:08 PM
Ultra Hal,

Well spoken.
 
2002-03-01 03:18:33 PM
"Shuh , you ignorant tool, Stalin has never been a hero of the left."

Much as there are those on the Right who deny the Holocaust, there are those on the Left who deny Stalin's purges.

Regards,
Shawn Pickrell
 
2002-03-01 03:18:52 PM
Ultra Hal wrote:
How dare we band together and stand proud after what was done to us?

I think most non-americans just have a hard time making the connection between USA being attacked by a bunch of terrorists, and americans feeling proud about their country.
 
2002-03-01 03:18:55 PM

Yeah, how 'bout them Patriots?
 
2002-03-01 03:20:32 PM
Mercutio74: oops...Shuh's move wasn't good enough...

 
2002-03-01 03:20:53 PM
IFeelNothing
anyone care to outline the difference between patriotism and bigotry?


Sure thing. Bigotry by definition is intolerance, which is an extereme form of prejudice. Prejudice itself is not bad, it just means judging without complete evidence. For example if you saw two guys with guns staring at you in the middle of the night, your prejudice to avoid a confrontation is in the right. You could be incorrect and these guys could be the nicest peace lovin' people on the Earth, but using your prejudice you have to weigh confrontation vs. retreat. Prejudice like anything is bad if used too little or too much. Its wrong to think of someone as bad because you notice their skin color. Its also illogical to go against your prejudice telling you something is stolen when you buy something on the street for something that is way under priced.

Patriotism is the love and devotion to one's country. This is a good thing because if all members of a society cooperate, the sum of the benefit is higher then if everyone competes (see Prisoners' Dilemma ). Much like I stated earlier, Patriotism in a large quantity can also backfire. If we believe your society to be perfect, we will not improve, and we are more likely to be taken advantage of by people who don't believe they will be stopped. If it's unlawful or unpatriotic to question someone in power, then the people in power will abuse it.
 
2002-03-01 03:20:56 PM
Patriotism is a mental illness.

Yes... that's right. No one should ever feel good about anything. I'm sooo ashamed to be an American. I think I need to go cry under my bed now because I'm such a bastard for living here and supporting my country.
 
2002-03-01 03:21:23 PM
Why does this dude write his story on a little white stripe? He must like writing stories on toilet paper while taking a dump.
 
2002-03-01 03:22:38 PM
Come on America! What's wrong? Don't you know you are supposed to act neurotic and beat yourself up when you're down? Don't you know that's the "smart," "liberal" thing to do? How come you're not self-destructing on moral relativism and confusing the meaning of words? America just isn't cool anymore! </sarcasm>
 
2002-03-01 03:23:10 PM
I am Canadian.

Culturally, yes, we are similar, but I'm thankful for the few exceptions.

1) We're a lot nicer, in general.
2) The majority don't consider 'plaintiff/victim' to be a viable career choice/source of income(when was the last time you heard about a Canadian suing someone for outright stupid reasons)?

3 is the big one, though...

After 09/11, the Al Qaida were sought after, to bring them to justice. Rightly so. What they did was beyond anything I'd seen. However, faith is a great motivator. You're not going to change the belief system of 10 people by shooting 5 of them in the head. I believe that there should have been more media coverage detailing the issues that led up to September the 11th, and since then, equal coverage on the government's pursuit to find an agreeable middle ground not with the terrorists, but with the civil people who share the same beliefs. Instead, they went on a manhunt, and that's what the people seemed to want. A crucifixion instead of answers. That, I believe, would have been handled (a little) differently by us hosers.

So instead of preventing this from happening, they actively pursue the 'ringleader', in an attempt to make him a martyr, thereby antagonizing the situation instead of trying to determine what can be done to make sure such differences of opinion don't bring equally devastating actions in the future.

I'm not a liberal, or a democrat. To me, both are representative of the American government, which is too much like a circus for me to believe I'm that closely represented.
 
2002-03-01 03:23:14 PM
Interesting note about not paying UN dues... We stopped paying UN dues after we lost a seat on the Humane Commite Board or some other board like that to SUDAN! A country that still alows slaves! Although I personaly think we should still pay our UN dues even if we don't win a UN seat, I can understand how such an action would be an affront to the whole of the US.
 
2002-03-01 03:23:37 PM
DaveBowman: Dead serious...kinda makes you want to cry...(granted they were local and some state elections, but still)
 
2002-03-01 03:23:48 PM
Ultra Hal:

But the thing is you're not special. Many countries have been attacked before without a declaration of war and with a higher total death toll. I think a lot of countries that have had the crap bombed out of them (some by the US even) adopted an attitude of, "Well, now we'll see how they like it." I'm not saying that's right, I'm just saying that's what seemingly going on now. It's just that the WTC attack didn't impress the global community as much as you think it should.
 
2002-03-01 03:24:29 PM
I think most non-americans just have a hard time making the connection between USA being attacked by a bunch of terrorists, and americans feeling proud about their country.

You mean they have a hard time figuring out that all that act did was bring us together against those people who hate our country?

I guess you're of the school that thinks we should've gone crying to mommy since we "got what we deserved".
 
2002-03-01 03:24:53 PM
Isn't the CIA supposed to kill people who talk bad about America? Where are my tax dollars going?
 
2002-03-01 03:25:37 PM
Wow, two whole buildings. More people die from hunger and poverty in Africa each day than died in the WTC. We are pretty farking arrogant if you think about it.
 
2002-03-01 03:25:49 PM
I don't understand why everyone thinks this is stupid.

Nearly every point was perfectly valid. Do we just not want to see that Bush is kinda like Stalin?
 
2002-03-01 03:26:12 PM
Much like I stated earlier, Patriotism in a large quantity can also backfire. If we believe your society to be perfect, we will not improve, and we are more likely to be taken advantage of by people who don't believe they will be stopped. If it's unlawful or unpatriotic to question someone in power, then the people in power will abuse it.

that's kinda sorta where i was going... to me, patriotism is a strong word. it's one thing to love your country, another to want to smash someone's face when they criticize it. this is what i am not liking about america right now. blissfully unenlightened, but PROUD, dammit.
 
2002-03-01 03:26:22 PM
Yeah but do I have to be reminded that I'm proud to be American everytime I look at a pizza or chinese food box?
 
2002-03-01 03:27:20 PM
EZ = Retarded.

Don't get me wrong, I voted for Bush, but he was not my first choice in the matter. Lesser of two evils thing :) I am a Libertarian, I have many views that differ from the presidents'. So that would mean that I would be ejected from the country if EZ had his way.

Real smart asshat. If you get rid of all the people who have different political views and ideas, you get rid of change. Without change stagnancy sets in. Stagnancy = Bad.

Duh.
 
2002-03-01 03:27:24 PM
Simple truth is this:

All countries and governments to blame. We're all guilty of farking up the world and eachother. Nobody is innocent. The US has farked other nations more than we can ever know and they've farked the US right back. It's always been dog eat dog. The end has always justified the means. Greed has always ruled.

It's bullshiat when people try to blame everyone else, but it's even more bullshiat when they claim they're blameless.

We live in a farked up world and that way it is and how it will always be. We cannot outrun human nature. The world will be at peace and agreement when the human race is extinct.

Can we fix it?

Globally? Never.

Personally? You bet.

Don't cause misery and fark with other people. Help others if you have the time, energy and/or compassion. Do what you can to make your little spot of the earth a little better for you and those you share it with. Enjoy the present moment and live your life to it's fullest.

peace out :P
 
2002-03-01 03:27:43 PM
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry
into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It
both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of
war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has
closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry.
Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will
offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know?
For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar." -- Julius Caesar
 
2002-03-01 03:28:49 PM
I like how all the ignorant rednecks are tripping over each other trying to be more patriotic. This means you Warren Peese, Bud093,Phix-it, etc.

I especially like how they are attacking the name of the site (Yellow! Get it? HAW HAW! Like pee-pee!) and attacking the author (This guy wrote somethin' bad about Dubya! See? That means he's stoopid)

My personal favorite has to be the (you don't love everything about this perfect country? well then leave) mentality...often used by 2nd and 3rd graders in the sandbox.

All this "patriotism" in the form of insults and close-minded arrogance is much easier than actually dealing with the truth of the matter, which is namely that Americans for the most part are loud, ignorant, arrogant, corrupt mess-makers who have never taken responsibility for their own actions.

Your actions in this thread prove the point beyond any doubt.
 
2002-03-01 03:29:11 PM
Mercutio74: "It's just that the WTC attack didn't impress the global community as much as you think it should."

Yeah... the French judge only gave us an 8! AN 8!
 
2002-03-01 03:29:32 PM
How is this an assault on patriotism? Does criticizing something nw automatically mean you don't love it anymore? Hell, I love my mother but I certainly don't walk around with my head up my ass, pretending she's perfect and infallible, threatening anybody who makes a disparaging remark about her. Likewise with my country: It has its share of problems that need to be addressed, in spite of the reactions of the blindly devoted flag-worshippers who call themselves "patriots."

So if anybody doesn't like this man's criticism of America, why don;t you take your own advice and pack your bags? There are plenty of countries out there who will lock you up in a tiny cell for the rest of your life for standing up and saying "I don't like this about our country." Pick any one - I'm sure you'll love it there.
 
2002-03-01 03:29:41 PM
What I find funny is the people that just dismiss everything the author said without consideration; like a five year old, "uhnt uh, that's not true. Stop being mean."

It might be a rant. It might be a little carried away. But that is what the vast majority of the rest of the world thinks about us. Now, if all the people in a room think that you are being an asshole, don't you think just for a second that it might be possible that you are being a bit of an asshole? Or does everyone else in the room simply not have the capacity to understand you and your actions because you think they are all poorer and less fortunate than you?
The people that blindly defend America are as ignorant and closed minded as the people that blindly hate America.
 
2002-03-01 03:29:45 PM
Quick, everyone just wave your hand and snub this article.

You just happen to be acting in accordance with the author's observations. You are just too dumbass blind to see it. Now go wave a flag.
 
2002-03-01 03:30:24 PM
It's just that the WTC attack didn't impress the global community as much as you think it should.

Shame that the "global community" didn't take advatage of this.

You say that many countries have had similar things happen. I assume you mean from terrorism. So, the US finally gets attacked and decides, "Ok, this is bullshiat let's solve this once and for all."

At that point, of course, all the "global community", the other victims, so to speak, go...

"Well, we really don't want to get our hands dirty with all that. Sure it's a problem, but you can't actually expect us to solve it. It's beneath us. Why don't you do it alone?"

Lost an opportunity to help finish the problem that plagues the world. Too bad.
 
2002-03-01 03:31:40 PM
Toad: Ya sure...Bush is just like Stalin...Go crack a history book troll
 
2002-03-01 03:32:47 PM
Shuh: Did you pay the French judge? I thought a perfect score was 6.0?
 
2002-03-01 03:34:36 PM
Capitalist

That's all fine and dandy to warn a country from starting a war. But when a country is attacked... War is neccessary to survive. War is not just a way to drum up support of a current administration.
 
2002-03-01 03:35:40 PM
"'Yellow Times?' They should change their name to 'Red Times.'"

Yeah, because if someone criticizes America they must be Communist. I mean, there are only two ideas/forces in the world, right? Communism and Americanism?
Cold War over. Era of globalization begun. No simple black and whites left for you to paint an easy to understand picture of the world. (which is maybe why so many people just don't get how much its changed).
 
2002-03-01 03:35:45 PM
IFeelNothing, what you are talking about is nationalism.

Berklee, are you getting this opinion that the majority of Americans "consider 'plaintiff/victim' to be a viable career choice/source of income" from the decidely fewer than majority wackjobs who do this? I just want to make sure you're really doing this stereotyping thing.
 
2002-03-01 03:37:15 PM
"All this "patriotism" in the form of insults and close-minded arrogance is much easier than actually dealing with the truth of the matter, which is namely that Americans for the most part are loud, ignorant, arrogant, corrupt mess-makers who have never taken responsibility for their own actions."

And that is a thoughtful, well-grounded response based on facts? Just the same name calling you are chastising.
 
2002-03-01 03:37:51 PM
So this is a popularity contest world cit? should we do less for americas citz and more for the rest of the worlds people so that they may like us more?
Guess what...we are assholes...we like it...and your country sucks...hahahahha. now go and pay your 70% taxes and wait in line for a warm glass of shut the fark up.
They are just mad cuz we stole hocky from them.
 
2002-03-01 03:37:56 PM
Ultra Hal wrote:
You mean they have a hard time figuring out that all that act did was bring us together against those people who hate our country?

No, I didn't mean that. I think everyone can understand that. But it's not the same as being proud about being american.

There is no reason to be more or less proud about being american because you are attacked by terrorists.

I think most americans don't really distinguish between those two things, but most non-americans do. That was the point I was trying to make.

I guess you're of the school that thinks we should've gone crying to mommy since we "got what we deserved".

No, I'm not. Feeling pretty aggressive today, aren't you?
 
2002-03-01 03:38:30 PM
I've never said that the U.S. is perfect.

There are a lot of things that need to be fixed.

Speed Traps are one of them.

But overall, it's a great place to live, no one is telling me what to do with the threat of violence if I don't do as I'm told.
 
2002-03-01 03:38:48 PM
Hmmm.. some of that guy's stuff I agreed with ("Even though the President said nothing demonstrating statesmanship or imagination or even compassion, everyone applauded and applauded and kept applauding"), some I disagreed with ("Anyone, that is, but the people who keep gulping and snorting the stuff down" - I think we're more aware of our role in the drug chain than he thinks), and some I didn't really understand ("the sermons on democracy and rights frequently are used as wedges for trade concessions"), but I definitey don't see how ANY of his points add up to a reason to hate America. That we can drink water from the tap without getting sick, can sue a business for false advertising, have had one major foreign attack on our soil since the Revolutionary War, and especially that we can write about how much our country sucks without getting hauled off to prison, outweighs all our political corruption and hypocrisy.
 
2002-03-01 03:38:58 PM
Here's how it works:

Conservative: Patriotism is X, Y and Z

Liberal: I dig on X, but Y and Z?!! fark that.

Conservative: Go home if you don't love your country.

Liberal: but, but...

Conservative: Your ideas aid and abet our enemies.


Half this country thinks patriotism is an entirely different animal from the other half. You only get in trouble when one half tries to enforce theirs on the other. Which is what this article is (poorly) complaining about.
 
2002-03-01 03:38:59 PM
Phix-it: "War is not just a way to drum up support of a current administration."

It is if you happen to be one of those people who hate the current administration.
 
2002-03-01 03:39:29 PM
"Interesting note about not paying UN dues... We stopped paying UN dues after we lost a seat on the Humane Commite Board or some other board like that to SUDAN!"

Totally not true. We stopped paying our UN dues well before that. We didn't really start again until after we were voted off the human rights commission.
We signed the treaty and therefore we should keep up to our commitments. I know that when I sign a contract I'm sure as hell held to it.
 
2002-03-01 03:39:42 PM
For the LAST farking time!! You people are talking about NATIONALISM not PATRIOTISM!

Will people start investing in dictionaries!
 
2002-03-01 03:39:48 PM
The nerve of someone to actually criticize america!
Did most of you farkers even read the article? That would mean the WHOLE THING, not just up to the part where your blood started to boil and rushed over to the message board to pound out your "opinion" on the author...
Most americans are living in some delusional Norman Rockwell calendar, actually believing that their country is a great place. It isn't. But there is no reason it can't be the best country in the world EVER. But at the rate your government is going now, there is no way that will happen. It's being sold out from underneath you.
Bah, I don't have the energy anymore.
If americans are too lazy or too stupid to realize they are being farked in the ass by a government that they didn't elect, then good for them. Don't cry when the next depression hits, or you're sent off to die in some country so that the VP can drill for more oil...
Stop wasting your time arguing about left/right party lines...they're both the same damn party anyway.
Vote Green.
BTW, make fun of Canada all you want, we still have one of the highest standards of living in the world.
And some of you farkers are just reenforcing the international opinion of americans being mentally unstable, lazy and ignorant. Even when it's their own future and country at stake...
whatever...
 
2002-03-01 03:39:55 PM
Ultra Hal:

Yes, most of the world doesn't invade a country when attacked by terrorists. I guess the rest of us are concerned about the fact that we'll have to live in the world after the dust clears. It's one thing to go into Afghanistan, which was hardly governed at all by the Taliban and certainly aligned with Al Queda but it will be quite another when dubbya wants to go to North Korea or somewhere else that has an established government and international friends.
 
2002-03-01 03:41:17 PM
IFeelNothing, what you are talking about is nationalism.

okay, nationalism then. thank you for expanding my vocabulary. yes, that is exactly what i'm talking about. and it frightens me.
 
2002-03-01 03:42:39 PM
Yay Patriots! whoo-hoo!!
 
2002-03-01 03:43:12 PM
Karmic Hoax: My bad. I meant that it's more popular in the US, not commonplace. I really didn't intend for it to come out as a stereotype.

I won't claim it to be true, but there is SUPPOSEDLY a valid survey on the internet that SUPPOSEDLY shows a surprising number of Americans considering 'winning a lawsuit' to be their plan for securing a retirement income.

Since I can't quote the source, I'll still say SUPPOSEDLY, and leave it open for someone to pull it out of their bookmarks.
 
2002-03-01 03:44:03 PM
"Guess what...we are assholes...we like it..."

Not all of us like being assholes. And I now know why they think we're loud. When I lived overseas I had very little contact with Americans. When I would go to places where there were Americans, after being out of the country for a few months, I would avoid them like the plague. They were loud. They walked around with an attitude of owning the place even though they knew nothing about the culture other than the small travel book they might have read on the plane over.
Of course, I've been back in the States for awhile, so now I'm probably once again a loud American. Oh well.
 
2002-03-01 03:44:52 PM
Funny how the people who attack democracy fail to ever attack Fundamentalism as a form of government.

Ultra Hal
A friend of mine was alive probably 1/10 of a second before that picture was taken. She was at right about the spot the 2nd plane hit on the 2nd tower. 86th floor.

I agree, to everyone who says we shouldn't band together in a time of crisis. "Fuc/< off!"
 
2002-03-01 03:46:26 PM
For the LAST farking time!! You people are talking about NATIONALISM not PATRIOTISM!

Will people start investing in dictionaries!


hilarious... the most vehement post in a while comes from a grammar nazi. i guess we suck at the dictionary.
 
2002-03-01 03:48:31 PM
Lintmagnet is right... we need to follow his example and go to a Canadian web-board and warn its citizens that the Canadian government is undermining their country... and that they are mean-lazy-bastahds for letting it happen. This will contribute greatly to "saving" Canada. And its citizens will love us for being honest, well-meaning Americans who have all the answers.
 
2002-03-01 03:48:42 PM
patriotism isn't a sickness, it's a great thing. unfortunately, this is blind patriotism. it's near rabid patriotism. Patriotism should be about loving your country always, it's crap that it took something like September 11's attack for people to wake up to that. And now that that happened, you see a bunch of flag toting jerks who are banding together in support of something that they should have been supporting from the get go. The Yellowtimes article is a good one, people need to frickin wake up and realize that their part of the damned problem. You guys keep saying how their just pointing fingers and shifting the blame. What are they to blame for? Whose foreign policy is responsible for US flags being burned in our ally countries? What crap is that. I don't see Canadian flags being burned anywhere because, well, frankly, Canada doesn't do anything. American consumption and neglect for responsibility is making this country a horrible place to live. Everywhere I look I see fat people. FAT PEOPLE. no place else in the world has nearly as many fat people as we have. obesity is now a disease here. it'd be solved with exercise, but people are too lazy to better themselves, instead they succumb to the world of cheeseburgers and internet pr0n. the people of this country, God bless it, need to wake up and seriously get their lives in order, because they're the ones fuc/<ing it up. You have to clean up from the inside first before you clean up the exterior.
 
2002-03-01 03:49:02 PM
It's funny how a lot of foreign leaders were educated in America and how they send their kids to be educated in America. Wanna take a wild guess why? Because we have the best of everything the world has to offer.

I'd like to see us pull out of all foreign affairs, cut aid to all foreign countries and stop educating the world. Hell, lets take their Internet away from them too, since we invented it. I can tell you what will be said about us if we do that, THE SAME GOD DAMNED THING! The reviews will never change. We are discriminated against just as equally as we discriminiate. It's a two way street.

We're damned if we do and damned if we don't. We choose to try to make the world a better place, however right or wrong that is in your eyes.

If you wanna blame something, try blaming technology for making our world a global community, instead of a cluster of isolated continents. Maybe you should blow up your computer and go live in a shack with Ted Kaczinsky.
 
2002-03-01 03:49:18 PM


Sad but true!



P.S.A. Recycle, you fat farks!
 
2002-03-01 03:49:26 PM
Right on Toonz! GO PATS!!!!

 
2002-03-01 03:49:38 PM
Someone attacked democracy on this thread? I must have missed that, I'll go and check.
 
2002-03-01 03:50:11 PM
wow that was quite a rant, sorry.
 
2002-03-01 03:50:45 PM
Pa-Tri-Ots!...Pa-Tri-Ots!...Pa-Tri-Ots!

P...A...T...S... PATS! Go Pats! Whoo-hoo!
 
2002-03-01 03:51:02 PM
WorldCitizen
I agree Americans could and should learn more about the rest of the world other than what they read in a Rick Steve's travel guide. Everyone in the world pretty much knows about the U.S. culture through our movies, news, etc. But how can the average American know every detail about every single other country out there? How many of us know about the infrastructure problems of Lichtenstein. Or the current problem facing Uruguay today.

Everyone in the world is a self proclaimed expert on America. Yet is it America's fault for not being an expert on every single other country?
 
2002-03-01 03:51:12 PM
He's saying that zealous nationalism leads people to ignore potential problems with their country, as clapping along with your brothers is so much easier. Unfortunately, supporters of his viewpoint are in a minority. It seems everyone watches the same 6 o'clock news and drinks the booze of "America is the best!" when most of them are too close to home to make an unbiased decision.
It's natural to defend your home team, but don't let that lead you to believe there aren't problems, particularly when this game isn't about winning, it's about diplomacy.
 
2002-03-01 03:52:57 PM
Spazkid:

If you take all american inventions from the rest of the world away, does that mean that you guys will stop using all non american inventions?
 
2002-03-01 03:54:10 PM
Because we have the best of everything the world has to offer.

do you ever stop and listen to yourself?

I'd like to see us pull out of all foreign affairs, cut aid to all foreign countries and stop educating the world.

educating the world. you, sir, are a comedy genius.
 
2002-03-01 03:55:33 PM
I'm gonna bleat again....

Now that the internet is as widespread as it is, I really thing we could fix a lot of this by creating globalized standards for education. From where I sit, one of the many roots to this problem is that there's too many people around the world that don't have enough exposure to visualize anything but what's in their own backyard. While a solution like this may take years or even generations to present it's value, I think it plants the seeds for a stronger understanding between nations.

*takes off boy scout hat and wanders off*
 
2002-03-01 03:56:30 PM
It's funny how a lot of foreign leaders were educated in America and how they send their kids to be educated in America. Wanna take a wild guess why? Because we have the best of everything the world has to offer.

If only you could suck your own dick.
 
2002-03-01 03:56:50 PM
SpaZkid wrote:
I'd like to see us pull out of all foreign affairs, cut aid to all foreign countries and stop educating the world. Hell, lets take their Internet away from them too, since we invented it.

DARPA did invent the internet, but Tim Berners-Lee (english) invented the world wide web. I don't think the internet would be very useful without www, do you?

Go back to your class, you might learn something...
 
2002-03-01 03:56:50 PM
Mercutio74,

I'm just making a point. It's not about inventions. If we did what everyone wants us to do (whatever that may be), they would still complain, call us names and hate us. We're screwed any way we slice it.
 
2002-03-01 03:57:19 PM
Berklee:

If there's understanding between nations... how will we ever go to war?
 
2002-03-01 03:58:49 PM
Later gang. Time to go get a Sam Adams.

Happy Friday, fellow conformers!
 
2002-03-01 03:58:58 PM
Everyone in the world is a self proclaimed expert on America. Yet is it America's fault for not being an expert on every single other country?

that's a good point. i've never thought of it that way.

but if you were to compare our version of "world news" with the bbc's, you'd see just how far our heads are up our asses, collectively. american world news tends to be a chronicling of america's interests abroad.
 
2002-03-01 04:00:47 PM
So the other guys news is the right one the.....okay thanks DA
 
2002-03-01 04:02:08 PM
Spaz
yeah, your education is soooo great in america. Why, I bet anybody could go to Yale, right? Even if they are a C student? Only if there daddy is George Bush Sr.

You guys all love the same country, the difference is that some of you have awakened from your trance-like state and realize what is going on. The rest of you, while well-meaning, have no clue what you're talking about. Just open your mind. There are FACTS about your country that you don't know, because your media doesn't tell you. But the rest of the world knows all about you...
The weirdest thing is that after September 11th there has been so much attention on the grieving process, and revenge. And that's ok. But there has been little to no discussion about WHY america was attacked. Don't you want to know why other countries hate america. It's not because they're jealous. And it doesn't mean any of you Americans are bad people. But your leaders are, so vote em out. Hell, you didn't even vote em in!
 
2002-03-01 04:02:24 PM
SpaZkid wrote:
If we did what everyone wants us to do (whatever that may be), they would still complain, call us names and hate us. We're screwed any way we slice it.

Since you know that, you should be able to explain why that is so.

And I assume you would behave just like that if you were not born in the United States?
 
2002-03-01 04:02:54 PM
If only you could suck your own dick.

Imagine if it could suck itself!
 
2002-03-01 04:03:14 PM
Dave.bowman:

DARPA did invent the internet, but Tim Berners-Lee (english) invented the world wide web. I don't think the internet would be very useful without www, do you?

Go back to your class, you might learn something...


Gee, I guess his www is useless without TCP/IP, which was invented by the US Government (DARPA). Why don't you go back to your class and learn something. Oh, and yes...it is useful, do you ever use Email? That was around in the DARAPnet days. Toolbox.
 
2002-03-01 04:03:16 PM
Spazkid:

This idea has been coming from the US forever. "I mean really, we've tried foreign policy one way and it doesn't work... we must be screwed." I bet if the US ever tries to paticipate in global interaction as opposed to dictate what it will be, you might find a lot more friends.
 
2002-03-01 04:04:29 PM
He has good points. America seriously blows ass in many, many ways. So do other countries, but being number 1, we just blow ass much better than everyone else.
 
2002-03-01 04:05:18 PM
Spenfox
I agree with you on the fat people aspect.

It is disgusting here in the states to see fat people waddling down the street with their fat babies. And I'm not talking about the people who are in the 250 Lbs and under category. I'm talking about the 300, 400, 500 lbs crowds. The kind that no longer have human form to them.

Maybe this country does need a food shortage for a decade to put an end to it. Maybe then subways will be a bit less crowded... even with more people!

I blame the restaurants. They put too much cheese on everything.

Then this whole "Super Size" concept. A small soda at McD's today is the size of a Large soda 25 years ago.

Too much food commercialism. Too much junk food!

See... and some people here say I have nothing bad to say about America.
 
2002-03-01 04:08:08 PM
For about 2 weeks after September 11th I was very patriotic. I was bound together in the national crisis as we all watched the horrifying video over and over. My friends were facinated by my forwarding of patriotic materials to them (especially my friends overseas who were not quite as wrapped up in the event as those of us in the US). And then the nationalism started. The blind patriotism kicked in. The everything-the-US-does-is-good-and-right-and-how-dare-you-question-us-you-terr orist/commie thing kicked in. And it made me very uneasy. Now the entire world is watching this reaction and it is making them uneasy. Their sympathy is melting away by our arrogance.
As I mentioned before, it is like the person at the cocktail party that has the most money and power. They are walking around all smug, looking down their noses at everyone in the room. Maybe they are not a bad person at heart, but they are behaving very badly. This person is loud and proclaims himself to know what is right for everyone else in the room. When everyone in the room thinks this person is being an asshole, don't you think it might be good for this person to take a moment, be a little introspective and think about why people think he's being an asshole? Or maybe he just doesn't want to believe what he is hearing everyone whisper around the room? Maybe he thinks he's above their questioning? Maybe he thinks he's better than they all are and therefore doesn't have to listen to them? In that case, maybe he just is truly an asshole.
 
2002-03-01 04:08:42 PM
SpaZkid wrote:
Gee, I guess his www is useless without TCP/IP, which was invented by the US Government (DARPA).

Did I ever say the US hadn't invented something useful? You were the one saying that US had invented all the important things, remember?

You were wrong, I was not.
 
2002-03-01 04:09:51 PM
If that is the worst America has done, then we are doing pretty good, I think.

I used to be a democ-rat, too, but then I opened my eyes to reality.
 
2002-03-01 04:11:09 PM
WorldCitizen: That was the best post I've read all day.
 
2002-03-01 04:11:26 PM
Spazkid and Mercutio74
What the hell do inventions have to do with anything?
Canadians invented the telephone, so I guess no internet for you then boys...
 
2002-03-01 04:11:35 PM
The general response in this forum to his rant pretty much proves his point. At least the first few dozen that I bothered to read.
 
2002-03-01 04:12:54 PM
I used to be a democ-rat, too, but then I opened my eyes to reality.

democ-rat OMG LOLLOLO!L!!O!L!!
 
2002-03-01 04:12:57 PM
I thought Xerox invented TCP/IP at PARC in the 60's and basically thought it was useless and gave it away...

just like the mouse

and the GUI
 
2002-03-01 04:13:55 PM
Ogdenwernstrom same here!
 
2002-03-01 04:15:24 PM
"Everyone in the world is a self proclaimed expert on America. Yet is it America's fault for not being an expert on every single other country?"

This is true to a certain extent. I certainly wouldn't expect every American to know who the president of Ghana is or what the government structure of Laos is.
However, knowing a little something about China other than "they are the bad guys" might be nice. Knowing who Putin is and having some understanding of his positions might be nice. Knowing that the entire world other than the US is not the Third World might be nice. Knowing that some other countries actually do some things better than the US might be nice. Realizing that the American way is not the only way might be nice.
Most Americans are so incredibly ignorant of the world that it's just amazing. The vast majority of Americans only watch/read American news outlets. They only watch American movies. They only watch American television. And then they still expect to be able to claim they are right in every action taken around the world when they really know nothing about that world of which they are speaking. It's frustrating for me, so I can't imagine how frustrating it is for those outside the US.
 
2002-03-01 04:19:24 PM
It's not uncommon to hear very critical speech from Canadians these days.
 
2002-03-01 04:19:57 PM
WorldCitizen

I think you've summed everything up quite nicely.
 
2002-03-01 04:21:14 PM
Sheesh.. go for a salad and miss a lot of posts. Eh, call me a grammar nazi, at least I can be superior at gatherings and other parties when people start babbling about things and have no clue what they are actually saying... reminds me of that skit on "In Living Color".

Berklee, I actually wouldn't doubt some Americans put winning a lawsuit as a plan for retirement or whatever, right along with winning the lottery. I think it was mostly facetious. Or I hope so anyway, otherwise there are suddenly way too many trailer dwelling trash types being asked to respond to polls.
 
2002-03-01 04:25:21 PM
Dave.bowman

Did I ever say the US hadn't invented something useful? You were the one saying that US had invented all the important things, remember?

I made mention of one invention in my post (which wasn't even the point of my post), which was the Internet. I made no reference to the US inventing all the important things, you just put those words in my mouth. Go back and re-read what I wrote and you will find that you are, as you put it, "wrong".

Also, the Internet doesn't equate to the world wide web. People who don't know about computers just think it does. IE: yourself.

Internet: worldwide network of computer computer networks that use the TCP/IP network protocols to facilitate data transmission and exchange

WWW: The complete set of documents residing on all Internet servers that use the HTTP protocol, accessible to users via a simple point-and-click system.


Spazkid:1 Dave.bowman: 0
 
2002-03-01 04:28:57 PM
Before I wish everyone a good weekend, I'd like to tell everyone of a frightening evening I had on Weds night.

I was watching West Wing and on the show the president played by Martin Sheen had 2 chess games going at the same time with 2 of his staffers all the while he was discussing the finer points of foreign policy with both of them.

Now the scarey part, during one of the commercial breaks there was a short news update and there was some footage of GWB.
 
2002-03-01 04:29:48 PM
Patriots!!!! Whoo-hoo!!!! #1!!! #1!!! Whoo-hoo!!!


Okay, I sorry. I stop now.
 
2002-03-01 04:30:53 PM
Gotta love how a singular person actually draws conclusions about the masses of ANY nation; America or not.

I read other news sources, in fact I even pay to get a bunch of European news and chinese news and arab news. Okay, I don't pay much, but still, I find it interesting.

I know who Putin is, more about China than them being labeled "bad guys", I don't only watch American movies, in fact one of my favorites is actually a French flick and I happen to like watching British TV...I know that the American way isn't the only way, but I still like it and I won't trash the country, but I will trash the government.. I know other countries do good things and that everything outside the U.S. isn't a 3rd world. I know we aren't always right.. but I also know that we are still a rather "young" nation in the scheme of things and I'm rather tired of people who label and stereotype the "vast majority" of Americans and expect us all to somehow be perfect and are most probably rather gleeful every single time we make a mistake.

How anyone in the rest of the world has any right to label Americans this or that is amazing to me. Jump all over Americans for thinking or doing whatever, and yet you are quite guilty of it yourself.

What would be nice is if people everywhere would quit with the stupid stereotypes and labels and maybe start giving others human something called the benefit of the doubt.
 
2002-03-01 04:32:14 PM
As far as who invented TCP/IP, it was Vinton Cerf and Bob Kahn. Both Americans who worked for DARPA.
 
2002-03-01 04:32:47 PM
GO

SOX!!
 
2002-03-01 04:35:29 PM
asshole.
 
2002-03-01 04:39:24 PM
Yankees fans can kiss my what?
 
2002-03-01 04:43:19 PM
Well said, Karmic Hoax
 
2002-03-01 04:52:14 PM
I smell a massive DNS attack coming, anyone want in? The farking balls on this biatch, he should come say some shiat to my face, then I would show him that American can do spirt. farking Canucks. What do expect for any culture that was bastardized[sp]from the French. I don't spell well but I can shoot like a sonofabiatch.
 
EZ
2002-03-01 04:54:43 PM
Sohare: asshat?? That was sarcasm I was using, ya dumb sonafabiatch. If you had read the entire post, including the quote at the end you probably would have eventually figured that out. Christ, now I know why people use the tag...for iggnerent monkey humpers that take everything literally.
 
2002-03-01 04:55:32 PM
Wow bam...way to add to the stereo-typical american!
 
2002-03-01 04:55:43 PM
"hilarious... the most vehement post in a while comes from a grammar nazi. i guess we suck at the dictionary."

Words have meanings, and you've been confusing the word-meaning links between "patriotism" and "bigotry" this entire thread pretty much. To give you an analogy of the mistake you've been making, consider the following example: you say "I HATE ALL FOREIGNERS," and then someone flames you for it, followed by your response "DUMBASS DON'T BE SUCH A GRAMMAR NAZI OBVIOUSLY HATE=LOVE RETARD LOLOLOL." Understand now?
 
2002-03-01 04:57:44 PM
I like Yellow Times.org

I read inflammatory diatribes like that and I think "Gee are the cases he's citing true? Do they have any basis in fact?" It doesn't make me angry. It makes me curious. If at all possible I try to verify such statements for my own benefit.

For all you Americans who say this guy should just 'leave', you're bad Americans. You have the same fanatical hatred of other ideas that Islamic fundamentalists do. I say you should leave. This guy has every right to speak his mind. If you were a good American you'd believe that and defend his right to say it. You can say that his ideas are baseless, ridiculous or stupid; but to say he should 'leave' is shameful.

Curse intolerant Americans.
 
2002-03-01 04:58:33 PM
YAWN!
That was about as intellectually stimulating as a proctological examination.
I love it when Holier-than-thous claim that the Holier-than-thous are not so holy.
I think the key point is that people who love their country (any country, including the US) recognize we have problems.
The difference between the US and other countries is that we air our dirty laundry, and often revel in it. But we're also good at cleaning up ours and other peoples' messes.

Sure, there are blowhard patriots, but they live in every country. Al-Qaeda may not represent a country, but they are blowhard Muslim patriots. Who also happen to be intensely stupid. US blowhards are stupid, but they don't blow themselves up.
 
2002-03-01 05:00:35 PM
WorldCitizen - They walked around with an attitude of owning the place even though they knew nothing about the culture other than the small travel book they might have read on the plane over.

Oh and that is so much different than people leagally and illegally crossing the US borders to come over to this country and then promptly telling everyone we have to honor and respect their culture all the while not respecting ours. I have seen many people from other countries be very rude, but i guess that doesn't matter huh. Americans are the only offenders of this. Blame America first.
 
2002-03-01 05:02:00 PM
Will someone please tell us what country we should be more like!

silence fills the air....
 
2002-03-01 05:02:00 PM
What I find most interesting is I've seen "don't stereo type the world you damn fat, lazy, McDonald's eating, cow boy hat wearing, drug using, Texas ranch owning Americans!"

Does anyone else find that funny?
 
2002-03-01 05:03:03 PM
exactly boot.....
 
2002-03-01 05:03:54 PM
I think we should be more like a mix of all countries...oh wait....
 
2002-03-01 05:04:15 PM
"it is like the person at the cocktail party that has the most money and power"

In a way it's not like that at all. Yes, America's policies are swayed by money, but also by the influence of a wide variety of international interests, probably more than most nations. Yes, we dabble in the affairs of other nations, but it's not because we're like one pompous ass who thinks we're better than everyone else, it's because we ARE everyone else. Where did Mohammed Atta train to be a pilot? Where did Yasir Arafat go to college? Who trained al Qaeda? Someone has to be the richest and the most powerful, and whoever that is, is going to be lobbied by the rest of the world to come to their aid, and will step on the toes of the less wealthy and powerful. Complaining about it is like arguing on the internet.
 
2002-03-01 05:04:19 PM
Well AburKadabur, that was stupidly circular. You want Americans who don't agree with YOU to leave because they think that those don't agree with them should leave.

All righty.
 
2002-03-01 05:06:56 PM
"For all you Americans who say this guy should just 'leave', you're bad Americans. You have the same fanatical hatred of other ideas that Islamic fundamentalists do. I say you should leave. This guy has every right to speak his mind. If you were a good American you'd believe that and defend his right to say it. You can say that his ideas are baseless, ridiculous or stupid; but to say he should 'leave' is shameful.

Curse intolerant Americans."

Wow, is it possible you don't see your own hypocrisy? Incredible.
 
2002-03-01 05:09:20 PM
One of the places I go to for 'news' is www.azzam.com which is definitely NOT from my point of view, but it is interesting nonetheless. Jihad News. Check out the Afghanistan Jihad News page... all kinds of stuff. =o)
 
2002-03-01 05:12:33 PM
WorldCitizen
You've got a lot of great points. We as Americans do have to see China as more than "the bad guys" and get our news and entertainment from sources other than just the U.S. I know I do. The sad thing is that there's too many that get their news from Jay Leno and Jerry Springer and that's all they care about.

I blame it all on the public school systems and their over abundance of political correctness. Teaching in a way that doesn't insult anyone stifles free-thought and discussion.

That and pot-smoking! :)
 
2002-03-01 05:15:54 PM
Creep Vassalage: besides... how can "we" tell some guy from Canada to leave the U.S.?

But I agree... AburKadabur is being a Hypocrite... "Hey, he has the right to say that so you can't tell him to leave the country. You should shut up and let him talk and only listen to him. because Chuckman there is correct and no one else is right so stop critiquing him. It hurts his feelings and makes his dog walk around with its tail between it's legs."
 
2002-03-01 05:16:31 PM
not an assault on U.S. patriotism, an assault on the U.S. itself. really hostile, paranoid, and bitter stuff. he had some definite points, but overall hes making the weaker argument the stronger. and of course, this guy is just a magazine writer. he has to put a spin on it, for it to sell. the more outrageous, the more times he'll be on fark and get noticed
 
2002-03-01 05:16:55 PM
I'm not American I can tell anyone I want to leave America.
 
2002-03-01 05:19:34 PM
Phew!

Just point this out -

Third world contribution the following troops to UN Peace keeping -

Bangladesh 5,781,
Ghana 2,140
India 2,216
Jordan 1,096
Kenya 1,700
Nigeria 3,321
Pakistan 5,047
Ukraine 1,278

The US contributes 1. That's one whole person.
 
2002-03-01 05:20:37 PM
"I'm not American I can tell anyone I want to leave America."

Well, that certainly settles that issue(??????)
 
2002-03-01 05:21:54 PM
Phix-it, here's what I want to know. Is that American or the nature of humans? How many OTHER citizens of other nations actually *know* (not think they know) about American people? So far, I've read quite a bit of ignorance from non-Americans regarding Americans.

Do the majority of Egyptians or British people or anyone else read or watch multiple sources for news items?

So far, the big difference I can see between myself (American) and the individual non-Americans I've seen post is that I don't waste my time with sweeping judgments and labels for people I've never even met.
 
2002-03-01 05:23:21 PM
Lilac - The U.S. does commit troops, but they do not fall under U.N. chain of command. They are officially U.S. military personnel, and they participate in what are technically "joint" peacekeeping missions. They are just not listed because they are not officially under the U.N.
 
2002-03-01 05:23:36 PM
AburKadabur: you missed the point completely.

Feel the breeze?

And that is an asinine comment. "I'm not --insert your nationality-- so I can say leave --your country--."
 
2002-03-01 05:24:54 PM
Lilac: Where the fark did you get that crap? I can honestly say that unless things have changed drastically since 1997, we have far more then *ONE* US troop with UN peace keepers...
 
2002-03-01 05:25:54 PM
Wadda moron. Fhuk ya. And leave this country that you so obviously despise. Jackass.
 
2002-03-01 05:26:30 PM
This is the most entertainment I seen in a long time.

But seriously, we need some boobies. More boobies!

I have arguments to be made, but I just got paid and I wanna see some farkin boobies!
 
2002-03-01 05:29:14 PM
Karmic Hoax
I agree. Everyone else "knows" the U.S. through it's pop-culture and it's news. That's a sad excuse.

I'm sure I could make a bad assumption of -ANY- people if I only watched their daytime TV. :)

When my girlfriend was in England for a semester and someone asked her if she was from America they all started chanting "JERRY JERRY JERRY JERRY"

Pretty ignorant eh?

But to answer your question. It's human nature. If we all dedicated to learn everything about everybody. We'd all be crazy and be about 120 before we could actually go on and live our lives.
 
2002-03-01 05:30:29 PM
Clarification... my gf didn't start chanting "JERRY" the brits did.
 
2002-03-01 05:31:36 PM
Karmic Hoax:
I would say, then, that you are in the minority when it comes to americans. we LOOOOVE to make sweeping judgements.

I mean, I went to my supermarket here in nyc andthere were those little vending machines for kiddies, you know, with bracelets and charms and stuff, and there was a sticker machine with anti-afghanistani shiny stickers in it! huh? we are teaching our kids early to make generalizations like that.

Kym
 
2002-03-01 05:32:18 PM
Just like the old stereotype that all Americans are cowboys. Sheesh.
 
2002-03-01 05:32:29 PM
lol

Seriously, rampent sarcasm is funny too.
 
2002-03-01 05:32:45 PM
I understand alot of the Americans reluctance to hear bad news about their own government. Nobody likes to be woken up while they're having a nice dream.
I think most people would agree that the "idea" of America is great. Could be one of the greatest cultures ever. Except the reality of what america is doesn't match up with what you all want it to be or think it currently is. Doesn't mean it can't be the land of hopes and dreams and milk and honey and pr0n. You just have to accept that your current government, like it or not, does not have your best interests at heart. They are looking out for the corporations that paid their way in.
So what can you do? Read. Everything, even stupid YellowTimes articles. Just like every movie has at least on good line, most of these articles have at least a grain a truth. Usually more. It's just a drag to hear it. There is no room for cynicism and withdrawal in our society anymore, you have to pay attention...or lose your rights.
 
2002-03-01 05:34:17 PM
Why is it that anyone who criticizes any aspect of the U.S. is deemed a U.S. hater? Dissension and the (theoretical) tolerance of dissension is part of what makes this country great. How about this: If you want to live in a country where everyone mindlessly exalts the nation, you leave the country.

*putting on my asbestos underwear*
 
2002-03-01 05:34:24 PM
not, I should add, that other people don't do that too. brainwash their kids, that is.
 
2002-03-01 05:35:40 PM
The U.S. does commit troops

Do you refer to the 722 'policemen'?

Because, all I see in this thread is Big Talk about wooping ass and how great we are, and I'm left wondering just who it is exactly, that ends up clearing up the mess?

 
2002-03-01 05:36:29 PM
Lintmagnet:
well said.
we would all benefit from a little reading and activism, and openmindedness about both sides of any issue.

I feel like I am just stating the obvious, here.
 
2002-03-01 05:36:36 PM
Phix-it, I just had a mental picture of an American woman walking down the streets of London shouting, "JERRY! JERRY!" It amused me.

Kymry, interesting. I would actually have to see this "anti-Afghanistan" sticker to actually believe it existed, to be honest. I would have to know exactly what it said or pictured. I say this because I know some people tend to see what they want to see to fit some agenda. Not that you are doing that, but I would prefer to see it with my own eyes.

Maybe you like to make sweeping judgments, but as part of the "we" I would prefer you not lump me in with that.
 
2002-03-01 05:41:03 PM
03-01-02 05:24:54 PM Boot20

I got it from the Official Website of The United Nations Last updated - last month January 2002.
 
2002-03-01 05:42:23 PM
Karmic hoax:
didn't intend to lump you, sorry, thought I made that clear.
also, just to describe the stickers, I guess they were more anti bin-laden than anything, but the had a silouhete of afghanistan with a cartoon bin laden on them, and they had a big red circle with a line through it.
I mean, I know in NY we are really touchy about this right now, but honestly! Right there next to a silly sticker of a fairy and brittney spears.
*sigh*
I can't blame you if you don't believe me, I hardly believed my own eyes.
Kym
 
2002-03-01 05:43:15 PM
Not that I meant that to come out as snarky as it did.
 
2002-03-01 05:43:32 PM
 
2002-03-01 05:44:27 PM
Nationalism, jingoism != patriotism.

Expressing your concern for what's wrong with your country and wanting to bring about change for the better is patriotic. Practicing conformity and blindly following our leaders, no matter what they say, is not.

I'm dissatisfied with the current state of this country, and I'd like to do what I can to help bring
 
2002-03-01 05:45:30 PM
Whoops.

...to help bring about change for the better. If that makes me a Communist pinko scum, then let me know.
 
2002-03-01 05:46:02 PM
An anti-bin Laden sticker? Sounds like typical wartime propaganda and actually, that doesn't bother me. Targeting one person is different than say, an anti-Muslim sticker.

bin Laden has done some pretty nasty stuff, I don't have issues with that being a sticker.
 
2002-03-01 05:49:17 PM
Lilac - Once again, the U.S. troops deployed in U.N. peacekeeping missions do not fall under U.N. command, and are therefore not "U.N. troops." For many reasons, some political, and some to do with the military itself, the U.S. does not allow any of its troops to come under the command of any non-U.S. military command. Period. That does not mean we do not commit troops to assist.

Now, we don't pay our dues, which is a completely different issue, though Ted Turner did basically settle up the tab for us a few years ago. So, name a country where a private citizen committed $10 billion of his own money.
 
2002-03-01 05:50:35 PM
Words have meanings, and you've been confusing the word-meaning links between "patriotism" and "bigotry" this entire thread pretty much.

one post. maybe two. three hours ago. entire thread? no. did you happen to notice this comment?:

okay, nationalism then. thank you for expanding my vocabulary. yes, that is exactly what i'm talking about. and it frightens me.

that was from me. hours ago. you're a little behind the game.

To give you an analogy of the mistake you've been making, consider the following example: you say "I HATE ALL FOREIGNERS," and then someone flames you for it, followed by your response "DUMBASS DON'T BE SUCH A GRAMMAR NAZI OBVIOUSLY HATE=LOVE RETARD LOLOLOL." Understand now?

your conception of an analogy baffles me. nationalism is to patriotism as love is to hate?

but i like the way you go into "stupid mode" to demonstrate that i am stupid. surely this is some kind of hollow, fleeting victory for you.
 
2002-03-01 05:51:19 PM
Yeah, I don't like him either.
what got me was the subtle inclusion of the silouette (oh god I can't spell sorry) of afghanistan in the background. It just pushed it a smidge over the edge for me. Bin laden does not represent the people of afghanistan.
Maybe I am hypersensitive because I live in a community with a large Muslim population that I see getting treated suspiciously by others.
*shrug*
I saw, long ago, a similar sticker of saddam Heussein during the gulf war. but it was just him, not iraq. Somehow for me that makes all the difference.
gotta go now, have a good night.
Kym
 
2002-03-01 05:53:51 PM
Jiji
I would say that means that you actually have a brain in your head...you've got your work cut out for you though, there is a whole nation stacked against you.
try www.ralphnader.com for a good start. And then run for cover when you talk to people about it...
ciao.
 
2002-03-01 05:53:57 PM
Nabb1
Myth: Serving in UN peacekeeping operations means that Americans are serving under the command of the UN or a foreign government.

Reality: As Commander-in-Chief, the President never gives up his authority over American troops. Although the U.S. sometimes allows temporary operational control to be given to the UN or a trusted ally, the President always retains ultimate command authority over our troops.
 
2002-03-01 05:53:59 PM
Lilac: Exactly what Nabb1 said. We are deployed all over the earth. Care to check (just for starters) Bosnia and Hungry? We are working with the Peace Keeping Forces (in a JFE (Joint Forces Exersise).

You didn't know this?
 
43%
2002-03-01 05:55:14 PM
i like my house. ok
i like my city. ok
i like my car. ok
i like my favorite shirt. ok

i like my country. MENTAL ILLNESS PATRIOTIC JINGOIST ALERT ALERT.

what a buncha assholes.
 
2002-03-01 05:57:13 PM
Lilac: Nabb1
Myth: Serving in UN peacekeeping operations means that Americans are serving under the command of the UN or a foreign government.

Where is this myth? I've never heard it. Due to various reasons US troops can't server under UN (foreign command)...I've never heard this "Myth"

Lilac: Reality: As Commander-in-Chief, the President never gives up his authority over American troops. Although the U.S. sometimes allows temporary operational control to be given to the UN or a trusted ally, the President always retains ultimate command authority over our troops.

Your point?
 
2002-03-01 05:58:41 PM
43%: Thanks I needed that laugh...now everyone is looking at me like I'm crazy, but I needed to laugh...
 
2002-03-01 06:00:39 PM
?
 
2002-03-01 06:01:36 PM
I'm just looking over the UN site and can not find a listing for Peacekeeping actions. I want to see them listed and the proportional contribution made. People only witness bombs being dropped in a retaliatory scheme of things.
 
2002-03-01 06:04:24 PM
I would think a "list of peace keeping actions" could endanger troops...Unless it was ultra general (eg: We have a UN peace keeping force in Bosnia...listing the # of troops and who they are under is ultra dangerous to those deployed)
 
2002-03-01 06:06:43 PM
What's your problem with this? Someone asked him why he didn't like the US, and he answered. He even knows what he's talking about. Note that he didn't say he liked other countries better. I hate the US too, almost as much as I hate everyone else.
 
2002-03-01 06:08:28 PM
03-01-02 05:49:17 PM Nabb1
For many reasons, some political, and some to do with the military itself, the U.S. does not allow any of its troops to come under the command of any non-U.S. military command


^ That myth right there ^

I was pointing that common held belief is a myth.
 
2002-03-01 06:10:52 PM
Lilac...I'm confused...what is the myth and what is the reality?
 
2002-03-01 06:12:12 PM
amen
 
2002-03-01 06:18:17 PM
Boot

"the U.S. does not allow any of its troops to come under the command of any non-U.S. military command"

Those were the words Nabb1 used in his post. I said it's a myth, El Presidente is always on charge.

That myth.

All I can find is listing for 'police men' as contributions.
 
2002-03-01 06:24:34 PM
OHHHH!!! Got ya! I must have misread something somewhere. In general that is true...however if anyone remembers about 5 years ago there was an E4 kicked out of the army for not particpating in a UN action in Bosnia...(he didn't want to be under foriegn command).

On that not...Usually (rule of thumb..not always) UN deployments are considered JTF (joint task force) deployments...the UN goes and we go under our own steam...

I do remember that when I was in we had quite a few UN peace keepers floating around...mostly in Africa and Hungry...
 
2002-03-01 06:30:19 PM
Not one Boobies? Not one? Is it not Friday? WTF...
http://www.worldofbritney.com/picsection/Magazines/a-m/frenchelle/5.jpg
Nipples are there...just the similiar color of the dress...
 
2002-03-01 06:33:58 PM
I see the as problem.

Something kicks off.
The US drops bombs on the problem.
Lots of parochial adolescents shout 'whoop' aren't we great.
Then the press drop the story.

It's bad P.R.
 
2002-03-01 06:45:58 PM
I see the as problem

should be:

I see the problem as

Dyslecix Me !
 
2002-03-01 06:48:50 PM
Such a well written "rant" could only inspire reactionary farkers to respond with "why doesn't he just leave then?" or "Dumbass... heh heh heh."
 
2002-03-01 06:57:53 PM
43%: Don't overreact, no one said that you're jingoistic just because you like your country. There are things to like about countries and things to not like about countries, especially your own.

People: It's okay to criticize what you find wrong with your country. You all do it ALL the time. The difference here is, he's criticizing things you're not comfortable with--either because you don't believe him, or you don't want to believe him.

I'll admit--it's scary to think that arseholes are running this country, and it's painful to think that the ways in which we live our lives can be hypocritical and damaging--but it's scary because often times it's TRUE.

Don't deny it. Deal with it. You can still say you love your effed up country.
 
2002-03-01 06:59:08 PM
Yes, Lilac, exactly - the President is still at the top of the chain of command, hence they are still U.S. forces, and maybe you just ignored the debates that were going on within the U.S. about that issue when we were committing troops to the efforts in the former Yugoslavia and Somalia.
 
2002-03-01 07:00:08 PM
The first well written article on the state of america today I've read since september 11th. Wow, he's not completely focused on being politically correct, and he makes good, logical points! That MUST make him a dumbass.
 
2002-03-01 07:12:03 PM
"I think this article is one of the most accurate written about the USA. I'd also like to add that part of the problem is the lack of political sophistication in the working class ranks."

Actually, that's not the problem. It's easy to blame the "ignorant working-class" (and I understand that you aren't trying to degrade them as a whole), but the statement is simply wrong. Working-class people have the least of any of the self-financed classes and thus have the incentive to go to the organization that is most willing to dispense resources: the government. It's true that working-class people are usually close-minded regarding world and often national affairs, but they are often the most active regarding state and local issues. Good for them, that's how activism should work. The real problem in this country is a middle class which has gotten increasingly wealthier over the past decade and thus pays less attention to what's happening around them. This article is one I mostly agree with, except for the Afghanistan part, though it's obviously not written by someone who's familiar with the sometimes effective, if Byzantine means of the federal government. To those who say "damned if you do or if you don't", I say that WE AREN'T DOING THAT DAMN MUCH. It's easy to verbally attack "loser" states that we justify insulting because, while they criticize the U.S., they themselves are technologically and societally inferior. It's also easy to simply ignore what allies say. But the problem is that the latter one cannot ever be completely ignored. It's not about just being unpopular anymore. Unpopularity isn't a problem. What the problems are are mindless jingoism and thoughtless flag-waving, relying on infantile, biased tabloid newspapers and television news, and ignoring everything to the contrary of what you think. LISTEN TO ME ON THIS: We have ineffectual, corrupt, and bloated political parties, an poor school system, an incompetent government, a refusal to change a nonfunctional anti-drug program, and a public which does not seem to want to closely look at what's going on!!! These aren't the words of some raving liberal. Pick up a real, mostly-unbiased newspaper, like the New York Times, (www.nytimes.com) and read every international, national, state and local-level article. Some of you will be shocked.
 
2002-03-01 07:15:51 PM
"your conception of an analogy baffles me. nationalism is to patriotism as love is to hate?"

Yes, in the sense that "patriotism" and "nationalism" do not have the same meanings. Having no real response, you parodied the person who pointed out your obviously "loose" understanding of the difference between the meanings of the terms "patriotism" and "nationalism." The point is that reducing the difference to some trivial grammatical mistake is simply irresponsible.

"but i like the way you go into "stupid mode" to demonstrate that i am stupid. surely this is some kind of hollow, fleeting victory for you."

You did a good enough job demonstrating your own stupidity, I was just pointing it out for your sake.
 
2002-03-01 07:21:33 PM
I LUV AMERICA!!
I like America so much, it's so patriotic! People are so proud of there fat bellies and fat kids and big fat cars that guzzle gas and pollute, that they put flags all over them
and drive around waving them. And they have Disneyland where you can pay allot of money to stand around in line with the fat people and stuff your face with all kinds of food that is really bad for you. (it's so cool) And they have this really smart president who is very reassuring to the fat people that nobody is going to take away their big cars and money and entertainment that is so vital to there well-being. You see because the principal of America is that whoever has the loudest voice and the most money is the smartest and should tell everybody else what to do. Like even if people vote against the big loud guy with all the money because they don't trust him it's still ok because he will find other ways to win because he just wants what's best for everybody. :) So it's all good.
I mean there are other people in America who have other opinions like stupid tree huggers, green parties and stuff, but they don't know what's good for them. They aren't as loud as the TV and cable TV and MTV and like the pop up banners and advertising and all the people promoting consumption, I mean it's like obvious who knows what's going on. And those "extremist" groups don't have much money so they are obviously stupid. Like if they were smart they wouldn't be out investigating the environment and spending time out learning useless crap like that, they would be building another business and selling more stuff that nobody really needs( but that looks cool so you have to have it). They should be doing the good and responsible thing, the American thing.... They should be making money so that they can consume lots of stuff. cool, nuff said. I mean even Britney Spears knows that money+consumption makes you smart and happy. And to all those doubters out there, (shame on you) don't worry, the loud rich people who are really in charge will lead you to know the truth.

Well, I'm off to the golden Arches,
peace out everybody

P.S. by the way, I'm going to be in this new boy band pretty soon,so keep your peepers peeled. I hope to sell millions of copies of crappy music written by producers who promise it will make me lots and lots of money. So if any of you have kids out there that like to waste their time doing stupid useless things like science projects, school, reading that kind of thing, make sure they get a copy, it will change there lives and set them strait, money and consumption, TV, advertising, the American dream BABY!! WOOT!! America rocks :)
 
2002-03-01 07:22:53 PM
For those who say I'm a hypocrite for my original comment, I'm not. If you re-read my original comment and really think about it, you'll see what I mean.

Maybe I should just explain it.

When a person says "America is farked up!" he is exercising his right to protected free speech. He's being an American.

Telling someone "I don't like what you're saying, so get out." is un-American. If you're a good American you not only recognize the guys right to say "America is farked up!" you have to defend it. If you don't have the balls to do so, then you don't have the balls to be an American, so you should probably go to a country where they don't require you to have balls.

If you're saying that he should leave because he's unhappy and not because you disagree, you're still being un-American. In America if you don't like the current political situation, you lobby, you vote, you write petitiions, you create a websiite, you canvass for change. THAT is being American. If you think that the only alterneative for the disenfranchised of America is for them to leave, then you're still lacking in the ball area. To leave your country because you're unhappy with its politics is un-American. If you feel this way, then you lack American-sized balls. Maybe you should leave.

Not a hypocrite.
 
2002-03-01 07:26:21 PM
< ive used this nic for ages, it has nothing to do with the article.

very good editorial, gets right to the heart of the corrupt system of hypocricy that is the american government.
nothing worse than flag-waving nationalist scum, nothing in the world.

hail Stalin
http://stalin.owns.it
 
2002-03-01 07:36:34 PM
Good article, he makes some good points, though I don't agree with everything. Everyone has the right to their own opinion.
 
2002-03-01 07:38:03 PM
You did a good enough job demonstrating your own stupidity, I was just pointing it out for your sake.

your cleverness is truly intense. i'm proud of you.

i think you should relax. you are obviously angry with me for some vague reason. i find that sad.
 
2002-03-01 07:45:50 PM
Theory: Some people feel like the U.S. is their mama--as in whenever someone talks shiat about your mama, you must punch them in the face. No matter what. Even if your mama is fat, mean, capitalist swine.
 
2002-03-01 08:11:32 PM
"your cleverness is truly intense. i'm proud of you."

"Intense" isn't really an appropriate modifier of "cleverness," but there I am being a "grammar nazi" so I better stop before the grammar nazi nazi's sic their dogs on me...

"i think you should relax. you are obviously angry with me for some vague reason. i find that sad."

Nah, I just saw that someone clearly made a valid point followed by it falling on deaf ears, so I figured I ought to try to point out what I felt the person meant.
 
2002-03-01 08:16:15 PM
From what I can see, this article isn't an attack on real patriotism, it's an attack on rabid nationalism.

Post-9/11 America resembles Oceania so closely it's unnerving. The Two-Minutes Hate (OBL), the aimless and never-ending war on terrorism (WAR IS PEACE), the curtailing of civil liberties in pursuit of "security" (FREEDOM IS SLAVERY), and - as is highlighted in this article - the truly scary flag-waving nationalism (IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH).

Let me clarify: flag waving is good, when it's the right kind of flag waving. Americans who love their country honestly and IN SPITE OF ITS FAULTS are the kind of patriots who ought to be commended. They are a true example to all of us, Americans or otherwise.

That to which the author tried to draw your attentions (and let's be honest, how many of you really bothered to pay attention to the article? $5 says two-thirds of you read the first 3 lines and broke out into a raging sweat) is the kind of flag waving which legitimises hatred.

That is to say, the kind of flag waving that gives the White House carte-blance to carpet bomb Afghanistan. Think about it for a second.

WTC Victim #1: A businessman, your average guy. Probably has a mortgage he struggles to pay, marriage problems, and maybe one or two nasty habits. Nonetheless, he pays his taxes, likely obeys the law, is respectable and is - in the end - a good and honest man. He gets killed, and it's a national tragedy, that legitimises the carpet-bombing of a nation of starving people that kills what could be thousands of innocents.

Red Cross Victim #1: This man has voluntarily pledged his blood, sweat and tears, to live a harsh life in Afghanistan; motivated only by his love of humanity and his will to help people less fortunate than himself. HE gets killed, when American warplanes mistakenly drop a daisy cutter on his warehouse CLEARLY MARKED WITH A RED CROSS, and it doesn't matter. NECESSARY CASUALTIY OF WAR.

fark that. THAT is what has enraged the world. Loving your country is one thing. Banding together in a crisis is to be commended. The world truly mourns your loss.

But using it as a licence to destroy the lives of yet more innocent people just because YOU think those lives are worthless, that's the kind of doublethink-Nationalism that the author is pointing out.

Love your country, it's patriotic and right. But don't for a minute let yourselves be fooled into believing that it can do no wrong, don't let yourselves be fooled into believing that killing more innocent people is okay just because you're Americans and America must always be right. Seize the opportunity to make your country even greater by just opening your eyes, assessing its faults and working to fix them. Have the courage to open your eyes.
 
2002-03-01 08:18:50 PM
"If you're saying that he should leave because he's unhappy and not because you disagree, you're still being un-American. In America if you don't like the current political situation, you lobby, you vote, you write petitiions, you create a websiite, you canvass for change. THAT is being American. If you think that the only alterneative for the disenfranchised of America is for them to leave, then you're still lacking in the ball area. To leave your country because you're unhappy with its politics is un-American. If you feel this way, then you lack American-sized balls. Maybe you should leave.

Not a hypocrite."

This is quite an eloquent disquisition on the complex yet essential correlation between "balls" and being American, especially coming from a self-professed non-American. Do you actually expect anyone to take you seriously? "I'm not American so I can tell Americans to leave America, but at the same time, despite the fact that I'm not American, I'm somehow in a position to tell Americans what being American means." Comedy gold!
 
2002-03-01 08:38:18 PM
Go ahead, haters. I was proud to be an American before it was cool. Sure, some things are farked up, but hey, things are farked up all over the place. It's just that things here are LESS farked up.

I'm terribly sorry that I'm not embarassed to be from a wealthy country and feel no guilt at all about the poor/starving/oppressed people from ______. Sure, it's sad, but I didn't cause their misery.

And don't bother me about what the people of other countries think of Americans. I'm willing to bet that I've been to far more foreign countries than you have, and from my experience I can tell you that most people don't hate Americans or even give a damn about world politics. Just like those awful, insular Americans, they are most interested in what goes on in their part of the world because that's what affects them the most. They know a little about what goes on elsewhere, but it's hard to give a damn about the internal problems of country X that is 2,000 miles away when you have your own personal problems right in front of you.
 
2002-03-01 09:03:32 PM
thins here in the US actually are incredibly farked up - i love this country enough to acknowledge what's wrong with it, not wrap a flag around my eyes and pretend like everything is ok. i think i'm going to go find myself a Gadsen flag now - something that is truly patriotic...


don't tread on me,
 
2002-03-01 09:12:30 PM
Just so you all know, this guy was an American, and left and became a Canadian citizen.

I agree with somethings he says, I think that the Bush administration is destroying our country, and I don't see why more people don't see it. Think, 19 Saudi Arabian's fly planes into our buildings and kill people, so who do we go after? Afganistan. Why? Because Afganistan has oil. Enron was negotiating with the Taliban in August of last year, in the White House nonetheless. AUGUST! Harmin Karzai used to work for Enron. So did the US Special Envoy to Afganistan. And Unocal is allready over there setting up operations. All those people died in the World Trade Center, and our president can think of nothing better than to make a few bucks of it. I think I understand why the author of this article left the country now.
 
2002-03-01 09:29:23 PM
Boyd - Are all Kiwi's as visionary as yourself? Or is it just easier to see from an outside vantage point.
Our beautiful Country is going through "puberty". She's growing up. (If I recall correctly, Her "birth" was really painful too.) If She makes it to adulthood, the Silver Seed will continue in the Universe. If she fails, time will belong to the weeds - and there will be no one left to smoke them. (Now THAT'S sad!)
 
2002-03-01 09:37:59 PM
If I'd seen this earlier, I'd have posted "Let the anti-America strokefest begin", but I'm too late.
 
2002-03-01 09:39:26 PM
Think, 19 Saudi Arabian's fly planes into our buildings and kill people, so who do we go after? Afganistan. Why? Because Afganistan has oil.

I'll be kind and assume that you missed the part about where OBL was living and training his muslim brothers.
 
2002-03-01 09:42:54 PM
Pesce: One question.

Actually this question goes for everyone...

When you eat food that tastes bad, and you say "man, this food kinda sucks," does that make you anti-food? Would you recommend someone who returns his meal at a restaurant switch to a non-eating lifestyle?

Anti-American strokefest? Stop being so farkin' reactionary.
 
2002-03-01 09:47:08 PM
"Just so you all know, this guy was an American, and left and became a Canadian citizen."

See Creep Vassalage, this guy defected to Canada yet he has an opinion thought provoking enough that all us farkers decided to comment on it. So why should my opinion be any less valid just because I live in Canada?

Besides I practically feel like an American anyway. All of the tv I watch comes from you guys, and I really envy your Bill of Rights.

BTW, his decision to leave the US rather than try and change things from within is un-American.
 
2002-03-01 09:48:31 PM
Well I would like to say....crap...too late.
 
2002-03-01 09:50:30 PM
Actually, I meant that in regards to the usual "yeah, America sucks" posts that this kind of nutcase ranting usually gets. You wanna think that's reactionary, go for it.
 
2002-03-01 09:53:10 PM
"When you eat food that tastes bad, and you say "man, this food kinda sucks," does that make you anti-food? Would you recommend someone who returns his meal at a restaurant switch to a non-eating lifestyle?

Anti-American strokefest? Stop being so farkin' reactionary."

Oh please, most liberals will find any excuse in the world to shiat all over America and its policies, it's their raison d'etre. Perpetual conflict is their only mode of satisfaction, but of course their "noble idealism" conveniently excuses them from ever having to face practical concerns like the morale of the nation's people...
 
2002-03-01 10:04:35 PM
"See Creep Vassalage, this guy defected to Canada yet he has an opinion thought provoking enough that all us farkers decided to comment on it. So why should my opinion be any less valid just because I live in Canada?

Besides I practically feel like an American anyway. All of the tv I watch comes from you guys, and I really envy your Bill of Rights.

BTW, his decision to leave the US rather than try and change things from within is un-American."


The point is that, on the one hand, you assert that it's not hypocritical of you to tell people to leave America for expressing their opinions because you yourself are not American. On the other hand, you simultaneously present yourself as an authority as to what it means to be American, even though you don't live here, don't participate in our society, and don't live by our rules. As such, your opinion as to what it means to be American really carries no weight with me.

As for the author of this article, just another angry foreigner jealous of the fact that we enjoy our society while he neither can nor does.
 
2002-03-01 10:16:24 PM
That was the dumbest America bashing article I have read in a while. That guy hated everything. He rants like a bitter old old man! Franky, I rgarded the destruction of 3000 plus civilians by a well financed small army of terrorists seeking nuclear weapons as a bona fide crisis. If we were loaded with this bitter tripe, we would be speaking German (or Russian) now. Thank God that it is not as hip to hate your country as it used to be, that guy can rant to his pet counterculture audience but he, and his anti american tripe is truly irrevelant.
 
2002-03-01 10:21:05 PM
Oh please, most liberals will find any excuse in the world to shiat all over America and its policies, it's their raison d'etre.


Yes, you make a very good point there. I have never ever heard a conservative shiat all over Anerican leaders (like out last president or current democratic members of congress), other Americans, or American policies, like welfare, foreign peace-keeping missions, affirmative action, income taxes, etc. Only liberals are critical of anything American.
 
2002-03-01 10:21:48 PM
"The point is that, on the one hand, you assert that it's not hypocritical of you to tell people to leave America for expressing their opinions because you yourself are not American. On the other hand, you simultaneously present yourself as an authority as to what it means to be American, even though you don't live here, don't participate in our society, and don't live by our rules. As such, your opinion as to what it means to be American really carries no weight with me."

Gee. I'm sorry that my opinion carries no weight with you. I guess the fact that what I wrote is true is irrelevant just because my mom squeezed me out up here in Canada. I think I have a better understanding of what the Bill of Rights represents than a lot of bonafide Americans do, judging by what a lot of people on this thread have to say.

But maybe I should ask you what you think freedom of speech means and just what obligations Americans have with regards to it.

BTW- I'm sorry about the whole, "I'm not American so I can tell Americans to leave America" thingy. It was a joke.
 
2002-03-01 10:26:35 PM
Damn fingres.
 
2002-03-01 10:37:23 PM
But maybe I should ask you what you think freedom of speech means and just what obligations Americans have with regards to it.

Freedom of speech means that I can express whatever sentiment I like without fear of legal repercussions. Of course, there are exceptions to this rule, which I think are encroachments and are inappropriate, but that's what our society has determined and so I abide by them. Now, when you say "this guy can say whatever he wants but he shouldn't have to leave America, but if you say he should leave America then YOU should leave America," you violate the notion of free speech: people SAID he should leave, they didn't force him to (of course, he doesn't live here, but that's besides the point).

The only true tolerance is one that tolerates intolerance: and insofar as ideas are concerned, America in theory meets this requirement. When the theory fails to translate to reality, then I feel impelled to point this out, as I did in your case.
 
2002-03-01 10:38:11 PM
Seymorebutts: If you can call it vision, then I guess so. But I can say with a good deal of certainty, it's a lot better to be objective as a Kiwi.

Sounds pretty uppity I know, but hey.. I've got a lot of love for America. Have several American ex-girlfriends, a lot of others who I consider to be among my very best friends; and have spent a considerable amount of time there. It's not home, but I can see why an American would be proud of his nationality, and the respect I have for the US means that I make no criticism that I don't feel is well-founded.

Every country has its faults. Unfortunately, America's shortcomings tend to affect everybody else as well, and that's where all this contention arises in the first place.
 
2002-03-01 10:42:26 PM
Yes, you make a very good point there. I have never ever heard a conservative shiat all over Anerican leaders (like out last president or current democratic members of congress), other Americans, or American policies, like welfare, foreign peace-keeping missions, affirmative action, income taxes, etc. Only liberals are critical of anything American.

Did I say anything about conservatives? I'm talking about liberals because the author of this article, and a lot of the people flaming in this thread, are liberals. Of course, you probably think that pointing out that other people do something makes it OK, but this is fallacious for obvious reasons so I really won't bother going into it any further.

Also, just to clarify, criticism is not the same as the phrase "shiat[ting] all over America" that I used. Criticism is necessary from within, and is unnecessary but potentially helpful from without, but unconditional animosity toward our country from within or without is both unnecessary and unacceptable. I feel that the author of this article, along with many of the people in this thread, fall into the third category.
 
2002-03-01 10:43:22 PM
It's just a blame thing... it all comes down to no one wanting to take responsibility for their own actions... me, you, the writer, america, every person on this earth. But does complaining about something really make it that much better? .... in the great words of Alan Keyes, "... now does this make sense?... "
 
2002-03-01 10:53:07 PM
Of course, you probably think that pointing out that other people do something makes it OK, but this is fallacious for obvious reasons so I really won't bother going into it any further.


Of course, guessing how I think is fallacious and I will go into it further. I do not think that just because somebody does something that it makes it ok for someone else to do it, so you are wrong. For what it's worth, however, I do think it is ok for Americans of any political stripe to be critical of America or its policies. So did our Founding Fathers.

BTW, who here has expressed "unconditional animosity" towards the U.S. here? Did I miss a post by bin Laden or something?
 
2002-03-01 11:02:51 PM
For the record, I like it here but I think a lot of things could be improved. G'night.
 
2002-03-01 11:13:44 PM
"For what it's worth, however, I do think it is ok for Americans of any political stripe to be critical of America or its policies. So did our Founding Fathers."

I just said this. Actually, I said it was necessary, not just OK.

"BTW, who here has expressed "unconditional animosity" towards the U.S. here? Did I miss a post by bin Laden or something?"

The people who are incapable of being satisfied with any set of conditions in America, because all they want to do is find an argument as pretext on which to express how much they dislike America. These are usually the people who avoid the points being made and make irrelevant comments without backing them up. I really don't feel like going back up through the thread to find examples. They make claims about what the USA should be doing that they know are not realistic, so that they will always have a basis upon which to inveigh against the USA: propaganda and nothing more. This is neither necessary nor helpful.
 
2002-03-01 11:17:27 PM
"Oh please, most liberals will find any excuse in the world to shiat all over America and its policies, it's their raison d'etre. Perpetual conflict is their only mode of satisfaction, but of course their "noble idealism" conveniently excuses them from ever having to face practical concerns like the morale of the nation's people..."

Of course. How could I forget that only conservatives are correct? God forbid we have an honest debate about what's going on, instead of showering everything in nationalism. But I forgot. A rational, real identification of problems without choking matters with emotion: an "axis of evil", "the evil one"; is impossible. God bless George Bush, he never made any dumbass decisions!

Of course, this is all ridiculous idealism. If corporate parasites were thrown out of government, and realistic decisions were made, like not cutting taxes simply because the government has money at that moment, or if the nation's parks weren't thrown open to commercial exploitation, the morale of the people would collapse!! Heaven forfend!

Seriously, what I see a lot on fark is conservatives insisting that liberals are ignoring points. But it seems to me that the opposite is true. Does anyone have the gall to explain to me why drilling for oil in an oil-poor country that will soon run out anyway, while somewhat friendly, non-Arab states are overflowing with the stuff, is a good idea? Or why the government is filled with old codgers who don't want anything to change even though there are obviously many problems now?

Ultra Hal makes a good point on the surface. But this isn't about patriotism. I have always been a American patriot, and probably always will be, but what is dangerous is, as someone said, wrapping flags around our eyes and not looking at what is happening. Simply because the next guy thinks everything is fine doesn't mean that it is, and that was true before and after September 11th. For example, Bush's military budget includes huge sums for new howitzers and interceptor aircraft. This is new spending NOT ON TERRORISM, not regular spending. What the hell is going on? Is Bush planning to duke it out with China, Russia, or is he maybe heavily supported by military contractors? Put that to the "Which is more likely?" test.
 
2002-03-01 11:28:43 PM
I'm getting sick of all this anti-american rhetoric that appears on Fark.
 
2002-03-01 11:40:38 PM
I don't recall the United States acting 'blameless.'

Even if we were 'offically' blameless, hey, that's any and all governments.

Governments deny reality all the time. Didn't that dude with the beard say "Cubans are the freest people on earth."

Does this canuck clown think he's stumbled onto something new?

We now suffer an endless parade of America-hating socialist numbnuts reeling out of American brainwashing centers (formerly called public schools) twisted by teachers and then professors who can't cut it in the real world.

One more canuck with his two-bit non-Bill of Rights opinions means nuttin.
 
2002-03-01 11:41:06 PM
george bush is gay
 
2002-03-01 11:48:48 PM
Whoo, now it's anti american rhetoric. It's ok when it's anti muslim, but damnit, bashing america is terrible because it's obviously perfect in every way. Now first of all, wherever he lives, whoever said telling people to leave america because they think some aspects are stupid is unamerican is unamerican, well, they're dead right. And no, I'm not a foreigner. America didn't cede from england so we could be a bunch of mindless flag waving zealots with no perspective of the outside world. One of the tenets of democracy is changing that which is flawed. I think the real issue here is you want to be able to tell anyone who isn't just like you, so you can wallow in your own ignorance and self praise until Bush reneges on one treaty too many and someone carpet nukes the U.S. Not everyone in america will take the point of view that the rest of the world is evil, just because we don't understand them. Now GET OVER IT.
 
2002-03-01 11:55:05 PM
Of course. How could I forget that only conservatives are correct? God forbid we have an honest debate about what's going on, instead of showering everything in nationalism. But I forgot. A rational, real identification of problems without choking matters with emotion: an "axis of evil", "the evil one"; is impossible. God bless George Bush, he never made any dumbass decisions!

Of course, this is all ridiculous idealism. If corporate parasites were thrown out of government, and realistic decisions were made, like not cutting taxes simply because the government has money at that moment, or if the nation's parks weren't thrown open to commercial exploitation, the morale of the people would collapse!! Heaven forfend!

Seriously, what I see a lot on fark is conservatives insisting that liberals are ignoring points. But it seems to me that the opposite is true. Does anyone have the gall to explain to me why drilling for oil in an oil-poor country that will soon run out anyway, while somewhat friendly, non-Arab states are overflowing with the stuff, is a good idea? Or why the government is filled with old codgers who don't want anything to change even though there are obviously many problems now?


Wow, three paragraphs and you managed to ignore the point completely, meanwhile shifting your attention to the irrelevant fact that conservatives are guilty of the same criticism. As I said before, I didn't say anything about conservatives; I'm talking about liberals because this article is about liberal ideals. Go peddle your political agenda elsewhere.
 
2002-03-02 12:01:19 AM
Forget bombing, I bet we could crush europe and most of asia with our gigantic collective ego. We're sorta like the village idiot who buys a gun; We've got superior firepower, for what it's worth, but that doesn't gaurantee we'll use it wisely, or justly, or be right in doing so. And we're not bulletproof and invinceable the way so many of us seem to think we are.
 
2002-03-02 12:35:55 AM
I would get on Yellow Times and use Netscape Composer to dash off a few lines aboot Canada, but what would be the point?
 
2002-03-02 03:39:04 AM
hey i have the answer -
lets sit in front of our computers anc complain
 
2002-03-02 06:43:17 AM
So let me get this straight... the real patriots are the ones "questioning" our policies. By "questioning" of course, leftists actually mean "disagreeing". Nice little politically correct use of language.

And anyone who doesn't "question"(i.e. disagree) is just a false patriot, mindless flag waving idiot. So leftists will therefore be the ones to decide who is a patriot and who is not. But this is just what they are accusing everyone else of doing.

Day is night, night is day. Freedom is slavery. Blah blah blah.
 
2002-03-02 07:16:17 AM
Sonofltfs-Agreed.I have no problem with immigrants,but it's a two way street,and if they refuse to respect me,I refuse to respect them.

Lilac-What's it matter if US forces,who don't entirely leave the command tether of the US president for UN missions,aren't counted as official UN troops?And additionally,as for getting things done militaristically,I don't see UN troops do much besides take fire from hostiles in the areas they're in,without firing back.Even with just bombing,the US does typically get more results,good or bad.For whatever reason we went into Afghanistan,for instance,we did pretty much topple the leadership and conquer the country in a matter of months.I'd like to see the UN try that.The UN has a lot going for it in terms of humanitarian work,but for military matters,I can see why we avoid putting our troops under complete UN control.
 
2002-03-02 09:19:49 AM
the OED he say:

nationalism: Devotion to one's nation
patriotism : Love of or zealous devotion to one's country
 
2002-03-02 01:37:57 PM
03-02-02 07:16:17 AM Kthulhu

Nadd1 raised the issue about US troops under UN control, I chose to refute it as a myth. You're barking up the wrong tree.

But what I want to know is - what happens next? It's been over 10 years since Desert Storm, Saddam is still in power, the problem is still there.

Afghanistan? What hapens when the bombs stop?

It is is still a country of tribal splits. Will the War Lords disband their armies? Will they simply forget their rivalry, put down their arms and settle back into rebuilding their country? Their 'soldiers' have nothing to go back to. Their villages have been destroyed, their farms are no more, there is no infrastructure. War Lords can pay their soldiers through 'drug money'. Where is the lasting peace?
 
2002-03-02 02:46:35 PM
How many of you farkers, Spacedog, Chevron et al, ever used the term Anti-American BEFORE Sept. 11?

Anti-American is just a handy and convenient term now used to dismiss the argument of anyone who opposes the current Republican administration, its rhetoric and its policies.

Next time there's a Democrat in the White House and you hate his/her guts or hate their politics/decisions--hope you don't mind getting called "Anti-American." But I'm sure you will. Conservatives do own the patent on patriotism, don't they?
 
2002-03-02 02:53:11 PM
"I read other news sources, in fact I even pay to get a bunch of European news and chinese news and arab news. Okay, I don't pay much, but still, I find it interesting.
I know who Putin is, more about China than them being labeled "bad guys", I don't only watch American movies, in fact one of my favorites is actually a French flick and I happen to like watching British TV...I know that the American way isn't the only way, but I still like it and I won't trash the country, but I will trash the government.."

Then I would place a very large bet that you do not fall in the majority of Americans. "Majority of Americans" does not equal "All Americans". There is not one statement you could make about all Americans other than they are all human beings (unless we've been infiltrated by aliens). Other than that, there's nothing you can say about "all Americans". However, to say that you cannot make observational comments about "the majority of Americans" is just not true. The majority of Americans are white. The majority of Americans have no college degree. The majority of Americans work. The majority of Americans are women. The majority of Americans are not millionares. The majority of Americans aren't homeless. The majority of Americans are straight.
All kinds of majority observations can be about Americans. Just because you fall outside of a category does not mean that the majority does.
 
2002-03-02 03:02:12 PM
Quick question:

How many of you know what yellow journalism is?

It's an old term for writing articles that had little or no fact to them JUST TO GET PEOPLE TO READ YOUR PAPER.

Coincidence that they're called yellowpress.com?
 
2002-03-02 03:17:21 PM
America is blind.
 
2002-03-02 03:20:38 PM
.org. Whatever.

Just HOW many of you have been in a history class in high school?

How many of you remember it?
 
2002-03-02 03:42:48 PM
Another Canadian weighs in with his two cents. Who cares?!?


Well said, FrankApollo. Hey everyone, if you can't vote here or, worse, you choose not to vote in this country, please shut the fvck up.

That's about all the effort I want to put into a socialisttimes article.
 
2002-03-02 05:04:20 PM
Odie, when did an internet forum become an American only territory? That's one of the things I like about the internet--none of those little tribal borders. I can vote in the US, I do vote in the US and I welcome the perspective of people from outside the US. It's always good to listen to the ideas and perspectives of others. You might not agree with them, but it's a much better way to live life than to just have your head shoved up your own ass (or the American ass).
 
2002-03-02 07:33:47 PM
When they are providing something. This guy, as usual for commietimes, isn't. I'm sure you would be just as likely to have piped up with that "insight" if this guy was espousing conservative issues. Lord knows how understanding you normally are of them, WorldC.

none of those little tribal borders
Unfortunately, no IQ restrictions Either. As yellowtimes so often proves.

Thanks for the lecture.

odi
 
2002-03-02 11:47:02 PM
One of the best articles I've read on Fark in a long time!
 
2002-03-03 12:16:35 AM
Dubya (I love that word) Citizen - Your reference to "tribal borders" and the lack of them in digital space made me think how interesting a world we might have if indeed we were all one (tribe(?)). Actually we ARE all one tribe, only it's called "species". Genes are a real strong common denominator. Being of human decent myself, I know both how high and how low we can go. (With and without drugs) If we all could, as Bill would say, "feel your pain", I think the human 'tribe' would be less inclined toward destructive behavior. Maybe we could have peace on earth. (Before Christ comes back)
I just had to throw in a little "religion", after all it's God, Allah, Bhuda and Politics that make for all this good entertainment. You know, I haven't turned on the TV since I found this place. (Works better than the "patch"!) oh, that's for a different addiction, isn't it.
 
2002-03-03 12:17:23 AM
I think it was Phix-it who said :
"He can't leave America because it's the only country that's free enough to allow him to attack it and not lock him up."

Well, having lived in Australia all my life i'd like to dispel that stupid notion. SHOCK HORROR!! Other coutries are democratic...
 
2002-03-03 01:39:26 AM
Hermanator - When you say "attack it", are there weapons involved? Can you "attack" Australia and not get "locked up"? You Aussies are a tuff bunch.
 
2002-03-03 11:53:39 AM
Hermanator, democratic?

I wasn't aware there was a single functioning democracy on this Earth, America included. Care to tell us where?
 
2002-03-03 11:59:51 AM
I'm all for giving AMERICA it's own planet.
 
2002-03-04 04:25:45 PM
Oh well. I miss Fark for a few days and don't get to put my two cents in when the topic is still hot. I'll still put em in post mortem, though.


03-01-02 02:53:24 PM 43%
everybody is entitled to their opinion.

if he feels that strongly about it, though, he should do more than just biatch. He did have some reasonable points, though. He must live in a perfect country.

Oh wait, he lives in Canada: oppressors of french canadians.



Aww, the poor french are so oppressed that all public signs must have the french written in letters twice as large as in other languages...

Also how when the canadian government gives more jurisdiction to Quebec it ends up doing a worse job. Living with all these french people isn't that bad, though-- the local french TV stations show porn on at late night ;).

Quebec, the land of oppressed French Canadians, the provonce that never signed the Constitution but uses its 'Not Withstanding' clause to get past the facts that its anti-english laws are unconstitutional.

Bah, enough of my rantings.

03-01-02 03:58:58 PM IFeelNothing
american world news tends to be a chronicling of america's interests abroad.

I have to say this is true. when I turn on the TV and watch the news, I see what's happening in the rest of the globe.

I saw ABC world news once when on a plane-- it was more like 'News about Americans in the rest of the World'. I hadn't thought it was like that up until then, and it IS pretty scary.

America is supposed to be this great big heroic super-power that sets rights in the rest of the world. How can you do this if you know so little about who/what you're dealing with?


03-01-02 04:03:14 PM SpaZkid
Dave.bowman:

DARPA did invent the internet, but Tim Berners-Lee
(english) invented the world wide web. I don't think the
internet would be very useful without www, do you?


Gee, I guess his www is useless without TCP/IP, which was invented by the US Government (DARPA). Why don't you go back to your class and learn something. Oh, and yes...it is useful, do you ever use Email? That was around in the DARAPnet days. Toolbox.

Alright, you're saying he's wrong cos DARPA invented the net even when he says the same thing?

Spazkid
, what are you saying?

'I say I'm right because A!'
'Alright, A is a good thing, but it wouldn't have been the same without B.'
'We invented A!!! You're wrong! B wouldn't work without A so I'm right and you're wrong. You don't know anything about computers so you're wrong. I'm right.'


03-01-02 05:55:14 PM 43%
i like my house. ok
i like my city. ok
i like my car. ok
i like my favorite shirt. ok

i like my country. MENTAL ILLNESS PATRIOTIC JINGOIST ALERT ALERT.

what a buncha assholes.


There's a difference between liking your country and going nuts and blasting anyone who happens to not have a 100% loving of all things American. People blast this guy for complaining about the current state of the US and then he's lucky he can say that because the US is the only country in the world that he can do this in.

People then say that if he doesn't like it he can leave the US. Contradictory viewpoints are a-OK as long as they don't mess with the 'America #1' way of thought (This is besides the whole fact that he isn't in the Us at all).

There's nothing wrong with the love of one's country. What's wrong is thinking that your country is so good that it comes to the detriment of your opinion of others. If USA - #1 then all others have to suck ass, right?

The problem with this article is that even thought it does make good points it also lays in the 'axe to grind' factor which just throws any objectivity this guy has out the window. He makes a cogent point and then backs it up with inflammatory drivel. He might not be totally wrong, you know. Just because this guy's article isn't well written doesn't detract from some of the points he made.

Why does it take a few planes being flown into things to get people to be patriotic? Us citizens are proud of their country for things that were there before September the eleventh. Why wasn't there this frenzy of patriotism then?


03-01-02 09:53:10 PM Creep Vassalage
Oh please, most liberals will find any excuse in the world to shiat all over America and its policies, it's their raison d'etre. Perpetual conflict is their only mode of satisfaction, but of course their "noble idealism" conveniently excuses them from ever having to face practical concerns like the morale of the nation's people...

Oh, so it's OK to disragard civil liberties to make sure Joe America is waving his flag high enough?


03-01-02 10:37:23 PM Creep Vassalage
Now, when you say "this guy can say whatever he wants but he shouldn't have to leave America, but if you say he should leave America then YOU should leave America," you violate the notion of free speech: people SAID he should leave, they didn't force him to (of course, he doesn't live here, but that's besides the point).

You still don't get what he says. He means that if YOU tell someone to leave because he doesn't like how the US is run, then YOU are preachnig against the very thing you supposedly stand for, and would then probably like it where free speech isn't considered such a novel concept.


03-01-02 10:42:26 PM Creep Vassalage
Did I say anything about conservatives? I'm talking about liberals because the author of this article, and a lot of the people flaming in this thread, are liberals.

And he's commenting on conservatives because the people the author is speaking out against and many people flaming in this thread are conservative. Your point?


03-02-02 06:43:17 AM Smengie
So let me get this straight... the real patriots are the ones "questioning" our policies. By "questioning" of course, leftists actually mean "disagreeing". Nice little politically correct use of language.

And anyone who doesn't "question"(i.e. disagree) is just a false patriot, mindless flag waving idiot.


No, that's not it at all. Anyone who automatically brands anti-US remarks as un-patriotic is missing the point. And of coursequestioning means disagreeing. What the hell did you think it meant? If you think someone should leave the Us because they don't agree then you're forgetting this whole thing about free-sheech and fixing what's broken instead of abbandoning ship.


03-02-02 03:42:48 PM Odietamo
Hey everyone, if you can't vote here or, worse, you choose not to vote in this country, please shut the fvck up.

Oh, so non-Americans can't state their views. And taking this further, Americans have no business in other coutries? Oh, suddenly that doesn't sound to great, now does it?
 
2002-03-04 09:05:09 PM
Hey, Dark One - Looks like you've been standing "in the light"! Thanks for clearing that up for me. I think I'll stay right here in my small sphere of influance and try to make America (whatever that is) better.
 
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