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(Denver Channel)   Estes Park may oust councilman who refuses to say the Pledge of Allegiance before council meetings   (thedenverchannel.com) divider line 307
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6060 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Dec 2004 at 11:32 AM (9 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2004-12-16 03:12:07 PM
It used to be a free country.
Duly elected, doing no wrong, this man is being attacts for what? A belief?

You who would set a referendum on this man are the dispicable decendents of McCarthyism and a seriously unenlightened system - do you really want the United States of America to devolve into a backward theocracy?

Where the rights of those, who would choose personal beliefs different from your, own would be denied?

I love my country. Our fathers and grandfathers fought to create it, sustain it, and protect it. In the name of Freedom.

You will not belittle the efforts of those freedom loving men.

Not on my watch, by God, Dog, or Damned.

Let's fark that survey for all that is right and good with America.

Vote for Freedom.
 
2004-12-16 03:13:01 PM
I leave symbols for the symbolminded.
 
2004-12-16 03:13:49 PM
Since the original pledge was written circa 1892 what's the chance that it was made to help bring cohesion to a country that had relatively recently underwent a devastating civil war and was still trying to recover? I don't think the pledge is a bad thing, but I think that it should be mentioned in history class and used (with the original wording) occasionally for ceremonies demanding some pomp and circumstance rather than a *required* ritual.
 
2004-12-16 03:16:17 PM
Bingo! Let's recall a guy who is standing up for what the Constitution says!


I think the pledge is pretty ridiculous, but I don't really have a problem saying it or standing for the national anthem. The only thing that I'd truly pledge allegiance to is the Constitution. Nothing more, nothing less. What a wonderful world it would be.
 
2004-12-16 03:17:33 PM
dsmo

"Bingo! Let's recall a guy who is standing up for what the Constitution says!"

Huh? How is this guy standing up for the Constitution?
 
2004-12-16 03:22:41 PM
drop the pledge - make em say "uncle" instead.

SAY UNCLE!!!
 
2004-12-16 03:22:59 PM
"I have not been standing for the Pledge of Allegiance due to a conflict I have with the wording of the pledge, specifically the words 'under God,'" Councilman David Habecker said.

"Habecker said it's a violation of church and state to include the words in the pledge and for that reason, he won't stand."

As a member of government, shouldn't he have a basic understanding of the constitution? I know it's been said so many times that it's becoming cliche but; there is no constitutional separation of church and state. The government cannot pass any laws establishing a state religion. Thats all.

That being said, I don't think anyone should be compelled to take any sort of oath, unless they are public servants.
 
2004-12-16 03:24:11 PM
loki see loki do

"It used to be a free country."

It still is. This man is not being arrested.

"Duly elected, doing no wrong, this man is being attacts for what? A belief? "

For at the least being disrespectful. Yes he was duly elected and he will be duly recalled. Isn't democracy wonderful. If this man doesn't want to stand for or say the pledge that is his right. If his constituents want to recall him that is their right.

"You who would set a referendum on this man are the dispicable decendents of McCarthyism and a seriously unenlightened system - do you really want the United States of America to devolve into a backward theocracy?"

Oh jeez you guys need new talking points. You need to know what McCarthyism was/is before you start talking about it and second I would love to hear your evidence that the US is turning in to a theocracy.

"Where the rights of those, who would choose personal beliefs different from your, own would be denied?"

AGAIN you moran. This guy is not being denied any rights. His constituents don't like him and they are recalling him. He is not being killed, jailed or deported.

"I love my country. Our fathers and grandfathers fought to create it, sustain it, and protect it. In the name of Freedom. You will not belittle the efforts of those freedom loving men. Not on my watch, by God, Dog, or Damned.
Let's fark that survey for all that is right and good with America.
Vote for Freedom."

Then maybe you need to brush up on the Constitution
 
2004-12-16 03:28:07 PM
willing to take what the this country offers but not willing to pledge allegiance.

boot his ass!

complaining about what you believe is wrong with this country and saying the pledge aren't mutally exclusive. (just leave the God part out if you don't like it, say under duress or something)
 
2004-12-16 03:28:34 PM
Angus_McCool

As a member of government, shouldn't he have a basic understanding of the constitution? I know it's been said so many times that it's becoming cliche but; there is no constitutional separation of church and state. The government cannot pass any laws establishing a state religion. Thats all.


The, ummm, supreme court would beg to disagree...
 
2004-12-16 03:33:46 PM
If this man doesn't want to stand for or say the pledge that is his right. If his constituents want to recall him that is their right.
That seems to be all that needs to be said in the matter...
 
2004-12-16 03:36:39 PM
//godxam
complaining about what you believe is wrong with this country and saying the pledge aren't mutally exclusive. (just leave the God part out if you don't like it, say under duress or something)
//

I pledge allegiance to the flag, and to the country which under duress forces me to acknowledge its subjugation to an invisible sky genie, indivisible with liberty except for those who dont believe in said sky genie and justice for some.

firefly
 
2004-12-16 03:38:14 PM
firefly212,

That's the poor man's version of Jello Biafra's pledge.
 
2004-12-16 03:38:21 PM
2004-12-16 12:27:48 PM BigBadWolf
If you don't like the rest of the pledge, then by all means, find someplace to live where you're pleased by their pledge.

You complete and utter dribbling moron. Other countries don't chant pledges to themselves. It's only moron americans that demand it, for fear that if they don't they might accidentally defect to Russia.

This place is filled with knuckledraggers.

Here you are idiots, enlighten yourselves before you die of righteous indignation....

The Pledge of Allegiance wasn't part of the Town Board's twice-a-month meeting until May, when Trustee Lori Jeffrey-Clark's proposal to recite it won approval.

For several months, Habecker, who was away on business when Jeffrey-Clark proposed the change, stood up and said the pledge but omitted the words under God.
 
2004-12-16 03:40:40 PM
Tyee
I "considered" myself faithful to passed girlfriends

They must have hurt you.

/you must be a big arsehole
//Mt. St. Helens, is that you?
 
2004-12-16 03:42:44 PM
For any Onion fans out there, this site has an interesting take on the Onion... go to their "Headline" section on the left and look at the "Guidelines"...

www.shtick.org
 
2004-12-16 03:43:19 PM
Hey towelie,
Socialism is an economic system, and has nothing to do with the 'under god' thing.

The bible is pretty socialist in its views, and I'm fairly sure it advocates the position that there is a God.

firefly, who is sick of people who think socialism and communism are the same thing, that they are government systems, and that economic systems have anything to do with how purportedly religious a person may be, especially considering the same greedy d!cks who only do good things so they can get into a magical lalaland of heaven tend to be the greedy people here who want to hoarde their wealth and create said lalaland down here for themselves at the expense of food, health, and shelter of their brethren.
 
2004-12-16 03:46:46 PM
Estes Park, the not so subtly disguised subject of South Park. Reality imitates art again

Next on South Park: Cartman Joins the Town Board
 
2004-12-16 03:49:02 PM
2004-12-16 03:44:21 PM TowelTheDoor
Ahhh, yes. Francis Bellamy, ...
I remember one of his books, "Looking Backward"


I always wanted to read that,
for shiats and giggles.
 
2004-12-16 03:53:13 PM
Hang on Voltaire
OK, OK, that was a shaky soapbox. And melodramatic.

Still, a special referendum costing thousands because of a personal issue that has no effect on the man's performance?
He is making an ethical stand. Maybe not the most important one, but an ethical stand of sorts.

So what is a reasonable response to learning an aspect of this elected official's personal ethics that was presumably previously unknown, yet has apparently had no adverse affect on his performance as a councilman (since he has been reelected numerous times, I think we can conclude that the community has been happy with his performance over the past twelve years).

Is it right to make this referendum on this basis? Does it reflect well on us? What if we found out this guy was a Jehovah's Witness without knowing it before? They are famously adverse to taking oaths (such as the Pledge of Allegiance)? Would it be acceptable to oust him for that?
Or if he was an Atheist? Would that be enough?

When do you think that reason should prevail over the tyranny of the majority?

I'm pretty sure that sort of thing is what the Constitution (or more accurately, the amendments to the Constitution, that Bill of Rights thing) was all about.

And the hell with you calling me a Moran.
 
2004-12-16 03:54:31 PM
So a grown man decides not to say the pledge because it has "under God" in it, and people call him unAmerican and try to get him fired, but the ones who need to have "under God" in the it still think that schoolchildren can just opt not to say it in class? Haven't you guys been telling the lefties to just not say it instead of complaining about it?
 
2004-12-16 03:55:25 PM
"Maybe he should have disclosed that he doesnt have an allegiance to America?"

He says that he does.

What kind of logic is it to assume that just because someone doesn't want to be forced to recite something, they must believe the opposite?


"Yes, and he is getting smoked 81% - 19%, whats your point"

That internet polls are a crock in general, especially when they are open to the general public and not the people who's opinions really matter.

"Why won't he tell his constituents the he does have an allegiance to America? "

He has. Read the farking article.


thepmpguy, excellent point.

The people who recite the word "liberty" in the pledge are opposing it in their actions. And the guy who isn't saying it is exercising his liberty.

How much more hypocritical can you get than trying to force someone against their will to recite how free they are??
 
2004-12-16 03:57:18 PM
Are we sure it's not the INDIVISIBLE part he has a problem with...

Cuz you seem pretty divided these days.
 
2004-12-16 03:58:27 PM
"I'm sorry, the correct religion was the Mormans, that's right, the Mormans." - South Park

And wasn't this Eddie Izzard?
 
2004-12-16 04:00:44 PM
KyngNothing

...and the Supreme Court would be wrong. Please read your constitution and see for yourself. As a history student and now teacher, I have done extensive research on this subject. As we all know, the United States Supreme Court is not an infalible entity.
 
2004-12-16 04:11:06 PM
This guy deserves the HERO tag.

The other asshat council members should be recalled for slacking on the job. They aren't getting paid to sing to a farking flag, they are getting paid to work for the city.
 
2004-12-16 04:13:40 PM
I'm sure nobody will read this far down, but I have to vent...

Freedom of expression applies equally to BOTH sides of this issue. He has every right to sit quietly through the pledge, but his constituency has every right to vote him out at their first opportunity if they don't feel he is fulfilling his duties as a REPRESENTATIVE OF THEM.

Someone stated that once he has been voted in, the voters should have to live with him until his term is up. WRONG. Winning an election does not give you free reign to do whatever the hell you please for the length of your term. Many of our elected officials forget very quickly that they are not in office to express their own personal opinions. Rather, their duty is to ALWAYS act in the best interest of the people of their constituancy. For good reason, there are devices in place to remove any official who pisses off enough voters.
 
2004-12-16 04:14:52 PM
loki see loki do

"Hang on Voltaire
OK, OK, that was a shaky soapbox. And melodramatic."

Ya think?

"Still, a special referendum costing thousands because of a personal issue that has no effect on the man's performance? He is making an ethical stand. Maybe not the most important one, but an ethical stand of sorts."

If he wants to make an "ethical" stand that is fine, but he has to face the consequences. He doesn't have a "right" to that seat. He has a right to run for it.

"So what is a reasonable response to learning an aspect of this elected official's personal ethics that was presumably previously unknown, yet has apparently had no adverse affect on his performance as a councilman (since he has been reelected numerous times, I think we can conclude that the community has been happy with his performance over the past twelve years).
Is it right to make this referendum on this basis?"

How do you know that it has not had an adverse effect on his job performance? Looks to me like he has lost a lot of respect from his constituents. .

"Does it reflect well on us? What if we found out this guy was a Jehovah's Witness without knowing it before? They are famously adverse to taking oaths (such as the Pledge of Allegiance)? Would it be acceptable to oust him for that? Or if he was an Atheist? Would that be enough?"

You can recall a politician for any reason. The recall ballot itself does not list a reason for recalling someone though.

"When do you think that reason should prevail over the tyranny of the majority?"

Here you go again. Tyranny? Do you know what tyranny means? 1. A government in which a single ruler is vested with absolute power. 2. The office, authority, or jurisdiction of an absolute ruler. 3. Absolute power, especially when exercised unjustly or cruelly: I have sworn . . . eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man (Thomas Jefferson).
4a. Use of absolute power. b. A tyrannical act. 5. Extreme harshness or severity; rigor. None of these apply. In a democracy the majority of voters decide what action to take. I think you have a problem with democracy

"I'm pretty sure that sort of thing is what the Constitution (or more accurately, the amendments to the Constitution, that Bill of Rights thing) was all about."

AGAIN, what right of his is being denied?

"And the hell with you calling me a Moran."

Well you don't understand what rights you have as a citizen.
 
2004-12-16 04:15:07 PM
Some right-wing reactionaries are already farking the survey.

Should a town trustee be recalled because he refuses to stand up and say the Pledge of Allegiance during Town Board meetings?
Choice Votes Percentage of 58832 Votes
Yes. 47551 81%
No. 11281 19%
Thanks for taking part in our survey.
 
2004-12-16 04:17:05 PM
Communist infiltrators can't recite the Pledge of Allegiance. It's a known fact. They turn to dust, like vampires in sunlight.
 
2004-12-16 04:20:06 PM
Remember, kids, nothing says "freedom and liberty" like compulsory farking pledges of loyalty.
 
2004-12-16 04:25:42 PM
"Looks to me like he has lost a lot of respect from his constituents"

You have no idea how his contituents feel. We only know the opinion of the woman opposing him and the people who signed her signatures. The election isn't until february, making assumtions about The Will Of The People before then is just pulling something out of your ass.


"Here you go again. Tyranny? Do you know what tyranny means?"

The concept of "tyranny of the majority" is hundreds of years old, it's one of the biggest downsides of democracy and one of the reasons for things like checks and balances, difficulty changing the constitution etc.

It simply means that the majority has the power to screw over minorities.

"I think you have a problem with democracy"

Guess what? There ARE problems with democracy. John Stuart Mills recognized it. Tocqueville recognized it. And the founding fathers recognized it. We're a democratic republic, not a democracy.

Try reading a little history before spouting off.
 
2004-12-16 04:29:37 PM
This dude obviously doesn't understand the so-called "separation of church and state." If I lived in that town I'd be proud to lead the recall effort.

God Bless America!
 
2004-12-16 04:35:01 PM
This man is obviously aware of the consequences he is facing for taking this stand. Good for him. The people wanting the recall are idiots.
 
2004-12-16 04:40:51 PM
The people wanting the recall are idiots.

Indeed.
But it is their local government.
If they want to replace an experenced and competent professional with a noob over something this trivial...

their funeral.
 
2004-12-16 04:41:00 PM
Interesting you take me to task for the rather cliche "Tyranny of the Majority" when it too is quote from Jefferson, ruminating on the freedom of ideas where a pure democracy is involved:

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/DETOC/1_ch15.htm
(link just for fun)

Well, I'll concede this one, as I know an elected official can be recalled for any reason given sufficient signatures to the effect.

Perhaps it is a stretch to say that a recall based on no wrongdoing on the part of this councilman is a kind fsiscrimination. Again, if he were of certain religions that frowned on oathtaking at all, this might fall under that category. But it is not - certainly, a man's ethics are the very reason (or should be) he is elected to hold public office.

But I'll just cross my fingers and hope his recall fails.
 
2004-12-16 04:46:34 PM
Oh crap, that was Tocqueville to Jefferson, not the other way round.

OK, with that error, I quit.
 
2004-12-16 04:58:11 PM
seventypercent:

Remember, kids, nothing says "freedom and liberty" like compulsory farking pledges of loyalty


Spot on. Probably >50% of the kids in my daughter's school are not American (it serves mostly visiting scientists' children... no issue of illegal aliens here). Still, they all have to say The Pledge.
 
2004-12-16 05:11:24 PM
Tyee
Not understanding symbols is silly.

Right, while groveling before symbols so those around you feel comfortable is perfectly reasonable.

"Give everybody eat!"
Major ____ de Coverly
 
2004-12-16 05:55:38 PM
Hey hippies!
I guess it's true that no one under 40 reads a newspaper today. If you did, you might have noticed an interesting story on the front page of the New York Times, concerning Tokyo's flag law. The Tokyo Board of education has a new rule requiring teachers to SING the national anthem (Kimigayo or his Majesty's Reign) and face the flag. A teacher refused, and he was required to take a two-hour "special retraining course", lectured on the error of his ways, and given a sheet of paper on which to engage in a half-hour's worth of written self-examination.


/I also believe that the voters have every right to expect this bearded 60's leftover to toe the line.
 
2004-12-16 06:09:25 PM
 
2004-12-16 06:20:14 PM
They should just change the line in the Pledge to read "one nation, under surveilance", then everybody would be happy.
 
2004-12-16 07:55:11 PM
I suppose this idiot also refuses to use American money b/c it says "In God We Trust".

What a jackarse!
 
2004-12-16 08:26:31 PM
Love how the Christians are so full of "LOVE".

/has no problem with what he's doing.
//has no problem with them voting him out.
///hates hypocrisy, but loves the forward slash.
 
2004-12-16 08:39:07 PM
pauleky: Love how the Christians are so full of "LOVE".


I've noticed that the meanest people around are the christian haters like this. I guess christianity gets in the way of them living their perverted lives, or gets in the way of their socialist aims by giving people hope. Leftists thrive on misery, and concider religion a threat, just like the communists did.

/not christian
/doesn't hate christ
/stay away from my daughter, lowlife
 
2004-12-16 08:42:20 PM
Otisburg

I suppose this idiot also refuses to use American money b/c it says "In God We Trust".

One has the choice to recite the pledge or not, or to even leave out the under God as I do. There is no choice when it comes to the US currency. Were all forced to use it no matter if the religious sentiment expressed on money is not shared by the user.
 
2004-12-16 08:57:33 PM
ifarkthereforiam:

One has the choice to recite the pledge or not, or to even leave out the under God as I do.

I respect atheists that live their lives in harmony with others. The fact that you are thoughtful puts you head and shoulders above atheists that are full of hate, or try to be trendy.
 
2004-12-16 09:02:09 PM
ifarkthereforiam:

That probably sounded condescending. I didn't mean it that way. As opposed to agnostics and deists, I have found it rare to find an atheist who isn't hateful.
 
2004-12-16 09:11:01 PM
Miccosukee, the vile, hateful, biggoted Christian minority doesn't have a noticeable presence on Fark. The vile, hateful, biggoted anti-Christian minority has only a modest presence on Fark. I therefore don't believe comparing their respective numbers based on Fark postings provides an accurate perspective.

I think both segments are products of various emotional traumas. Addressing their personas as necessary for validating their idiosyncrasies would be putting the cart before the horse. Aiding their emotional disfunctions would likely diffuse their bigotry, while attacking them is only going to aggravate both.
 
2004-12-16 10:41:08 PM
As a liberal, I wish to go over this list of "Things Liberals hate (TM)" posted above:

Christmas trees.

I don't hate these. I love christmas trees. I have one myself. I'm even a Christian. but I'd never FORCE someone to have one. I also don't mind them being displayed in front of public buildings as long as other religions are allowed to place relevant holiday symbols or decorations there too.

Accuracy in high school History classes.

The same can be said of conservatives. There's revisionists on both sides of the political spectrum. The truth is almost ALWAYS somewhere in the middle.

McDonalds.

Nope, no problem with them. I believe that they should freely and accurately make available the true content of their offerings to anyone who asks. a company has a moral obligation to be truthful to their customers. Otherwise... no problem here.

People who work hard.

Nope... I don't mind this, either. I do believe that it is the responsibility of government to provide for the basic needs of living wherever a person can't provide them on their own. This includes healthcare. I don't believe in providing able people with unlimited welfare. I believe in giving a hand up, not a hand out. But basic needs need to be met: food, shelter, healthcare, and the opportunity to live their life to its fullest.

Quality education.

A quality education teaches kids the FACTS. It provides guidance, gives all legitimate sides of all issues, and teaches kids to be productive, well- adjusted citizens.

Monogamy.

Nope... no problem with this at all. It's a beautiful thing. But if someone doesn't WANT this, and isn't hurting others, it doesn't need to be forced on them. The government has no business in the bedroom of consenting, non- hurtful adult people.

Gun owners who wish to protect their families.

nope... no problems here, either. Gun control is about keeping guns away from criminals, not law- abiding citizens. Yes, I know a criminal can get them elsewhere, but anything that makes it THAT much harder for a criminal to get a gun is a good thing.

Steak.

My favorite thing in the world is a nice, juicy rare steak. My housemates are vegetarians. They make that choice, and I respect them. They do the same for me. That's what I'm about- mutual respect.

John Wayne.

He was a good actor. But if someone doesn't like him, that's their right.

Clean clothes.

Ok, this one is inane. I see plenty of folks running around in dirty clothes where I work. And most of them are conservatives (look in my profile and see where I work) Clean clothes for everyone!



As you can see, the poster of this list was only posting stereotypes. I could do the same and stereotype conservatives. But I'm not as petty as this guy is.

As for the pledge, the "under god" thing wasn't there, and people who don't want to shouldn't have to say it. Who says there can't be 2 versions of the pledge. And the guy in the article? he's exercising his right as an American to dissent to something his government is doing that he doesn't care for. That is precisely what this nation was founded on. The founders of this nation turn in their graves so much these days, they look like dervishes.
 
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