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(Denver Channel)   Estes Park may oust councilman who refuses to say the Pledge of Allegiance before council meetings   (thedenverchannel.com) divider line 307
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6064 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Dec 2004 at 11:32 AM (10 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2004-12-16 12:21:48 PM  
Tyee
Where do your allegiances lie if not with The United States of America?

How about to the concepts of freedom and justice. To humanity. To family and friends... the list could go on.

There's plenty of noble ideals that people can pledge their allegiance to that don't involve the nation state, and that don't make the individual "the enemy".

Just because one doesn't pledge allegiance to "The USA", doesn't mean they're automatically pledging allegiance to North Korea.
 
2004-12-16 12:21:55 PM  
Love your country. Or not, but always regard government with cautious suspicion.
 
2004-12-16 12:22:23 PM  
Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist

In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools' quadri-centennial
celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*)the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

A few liberals recite a slightly revised version of Bellamy's original Pledge:
'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.'

See also www.PledgeQandA.com
 
2004-12-16 12:24:27 PM  
What if there is no God?
 
2004-12-16 12:27:18 PM  
Then drop th "God thing" if you must. If you don't want to pledge your allegiance to the USA, to whom or where does your allegiance belong? Mexico? Canada? N. Korea? China? The people of the town have a right to know, in fact they should have found out before the election.
 
2004-12-16 12:27:48 PM  
Another extremist gets the "Asshat" award. Instead of causing all of this fracas, just skip the words "under god" if it offends you, not the whole damn pledge. If you don't like the rest of the pledge, then by all means, find someplace to live where you're pleased by their pledge. WTF made this moran get into politics for a country he has no respect for?

Jeebus... surely there are more important things to plant your fat ass in a chair for than this... no?
 
2004-12-16 12:28:58 PM  
BigBadWolf: find someplace to live where you're pleased by their pledge.

You'll find that outside of oppressive regimes, there aren't too many coountries that recite pledges.
 
2004-12-16 12:29:39 PM  
I'm glad all other problems have been solved in Estes Park.
 
2004-12-16 12:29:42 PM  
If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us.

-West Virginia v. Barnette
 
2004-12-16 12:29:50 PM  
Mr.Fabulous

No, the big question is "Who the fark are you to insist that a grown man continually reassert his loyalty to his country, to your satisfaction?"

Just beautiful. If anyone is too stupid to understand this, then you deserve your limited freedom and your neocon pseudo-patriotism.
 
2004-12-16 12:31:46 PM  
BigBadWolf
Another extremist gets the "Asshat" award. Instead of causing all of this fracas

Someone is an "extremist" because they sit quietly for 45 seconds? Your sense of proportion may be a little skewed.

And he didn't cause "fracas". Like I say, he just sat there. His opponents are the ones that have turned this into a big issue.
 
2004-12-16 12:33:21 PM  
Mr_Fabulous

United "we" stand. This doesn't mean we can't and don't have internal disagreements. But are you one of "us" or not? Are you working for change from within "us", or from somewhere else where your true allegiance lies?
 
2004-12-16 12:33:30 PM  
This thread has already been Godwinned. You must stop posting in it immediately.

/obey and be happy.
 
2004-12-16 12:33:34 PM  
Tyee
If you don't want to pledge your allegiance to the USA, to whom or where does your allegiance belong? Mexico? Canada? N. Korea? China? The people of the town have a right to know, in fact they should have found out before the election.

What infantile, brainwashed notion compels you to believe that a grown man must continually reaffirm his loyalty to country in an empty ritual, or else his allegiances must be elsewhere?

That's three times you've asked the same ridiculous question, and three times I'm calling you un-American for your hive mentality. You have not denied my charge that you are a communist. I must conclude that you are one, then.

You have failed the loyalty test, communist.

/mind if I start calling you Karl?
 
2004-12-16 12:34:34 PM  
He should stand and just not say the "under God" portion

Then he isn't saying The Pledge. He might as well, at that point, recite a few Metallica lyrics.
 
2004-12-16 12:34:54 PM  
Where do your allegiances lie if not with The United States of America?

Nobody's business. But Family first.
 
2004-12-16 12:38:21 PM  
Its the altitude, sir!

/Denver International Airport
//The big white elephant!
///Take a right and go a ways north, then west, then north! There is Estes Park! Ooops, the pass is closed.
 
2004-12-16 12:38:27 PM  
2004-12-16 12:33:21 PM Tyee
Mr_Fabulous
United "we" stand. This doesn't mean we can't and don't have internal disagreements. But are you one of "us" or not?


OK, I'm a little dense. This guy is trolling, and I got caught. Hook, line and sinker. You got me! Well played, sir.

(this is satire, right?)
 
2004-12-16 12:39:58 PM  
The Pretzel

You'll find that outside of oppressive regimes, there aren't too many coountries that recite pledges.

Perhaps the fact that we do things differently is one small portion of the reason that the USA has become the world power (I speak economically as well as militarily) it is.

I am former military and therefore have more of an allegiance than some might so my perspective *might* be a bit skewed.
 
2004-12-16 12:40:51 PM  
I'm going to leap over the "under God" issue by saying that I don't mind those words being in there, and I think anyone who insists on removing the words due to their own personal views are just exercising their right to be arseholes. You can just not say the words, for heaven's sake.

Regarding this guy, I also don't care if he doesn't participate in the pledge. If I saw that, I'd either be puzzled or amused, but that's about it.

From the article...

David Habecker sits while others stand for the Pledge of Allegiance.

"I have not been standing for the Pledge of Allegiance due to a conflict I have with the wording of the pledge, specifically the words 'under God,'" Councilman David Habecker said.

Habecker said it's a violation of church and state to include the words in the pledge and for that reason, he won't stand.

...

"I'm sad for the community, that there is that much intolerance in our community. But if the people want to have a voice in what's going on, this is their way of doing it. And I will respect whatever the wishes of the community are," Habecker said.


Well now, I could theoretically make the argument that your disapproval of having the words "under God" in the pledge is a form of intolerance.
 
2004-12-16 12:42:14 PM  
Tyee,

According to the pledge, allegiance is primarily to the flag, and only tangentially to the Republic. While I find the idea of any loyalty oath repugnant (and really wish some of these officials would have the stones to object on that point), I'd be a lot happier with a pledge to the Republic than to its flag; what we've actually got seems a lot like idolatry.

Also displeased by the lying "indivisible" in there.
 
2004-12-16 12:42:18 PM  
Indivisible, my ass! This guy is trying to divide, that is why he won't say it. Give him credit for being honest and show him the door.


Mr_Fabulous,

Did ever cross you mind that he isn't reaffirming it for himself, but affirming it for the people whom he serves? Some who don't know where he stands, but now do, and would like to recall him?
 
2004-12-16 12:42:44 PM  
Attention Farkers
Seems I've touched a nerve here. In addition to the Pledge, misguided liberals are always offended by the following items:

Christmas trees.
Accuracy in high school History classes.
McDonalds.
People who work hard.
Quality education.
Monogamy.
Gun owners who wish to protect their families.
Steak.
John Wayne.
Clean clothes.

Well, it's a partial list for now.
 
2004-12-16 12:43:07 PM  
Mr Guy

I completely agree that they should kick him out. If they've got a council member who can't figure out how to say the rest of the original pledge without saying the words he finds offensive that were added later, maybe his town is better off without him.

Hint:

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands. One nation,this is the tricky part, you have to NOT say anything indivisible whew you made it with liberty and justice for all.


Why give them a hint that is wrong? Your post implies you want them to say the first version, but your hint is for the second (which is still wrong, as you're missing the word "indivisible") Here's the original version:

I pledge allegiance to my flag, and (to) the republic, for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
 
2004-12-16 12:43:46 PM  
As I read about 2/3rds of the posts in here, the only people I hear complaining are the Anti-pledge of allegiance people. As a government representative, this tool should be forced to pledge allegiance to his country.

Or perhaps we should elect anti-american people into the government?
This "under god, separation of church and state" crap is simply a canard by people who hate america and want to destroy this country.
And I say fark you to each and every one of you idiots who tries to push your personal viewpoint onto me. How dare you say your ideas and beliefs are more important than mine.

/FLAME ON!!!
 
2004-12-16 12:44:01 PM  
The flag is the symbol of the USA, get it?
 
2004-12-16 12:44:57 PM  
2004-12-16 12:34:34 PM ArcadianRefugee

You're not too bright.

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from it's government." Thomas Paine

/why do you jesus freaks HATE AMERICA?
 
2004-12-16 12:45:25 PM  
Wow, I cant believe that crap. I mean lets impeach a guy for exercising his constitutional rights, and in this case *not* standing for what he believes in.

Lets just cut to the chase and re-institute the Bellamy Salute, and run the economy like our current military industrial complex. Ohh, don't forget to expel kids from school who object...can't for get that one.
 
2004-12-16 12:45:39 PM  
He has every right to not say the Pledge.

And they have every right to tell him that he is an unAmerican, worthless piece of sh*t.
 
2004-12-16 12:45:45 PM  
Yahweh

Someone is an "extremist" because they sit quietly for 45 seconds? Your sense of proportion may be a little skewed.

If this "person" got into politics, he would have to have one heck of a low IQ to not realize he'd be expected to recite the pledge regularly. He is afterall serving a community of the USA.

And he didn't cause "fracas". Like I say, he just sat there. His opponents are the ones that have turned this into a big issue.

And rightly so... as stated above, this clown should have gotten into the ACLU if he wants to behave like this. Sounds childish in my eyes... "NO I WON'T STAND! YOU WON'T LET ME DO IT MY WAY!!" *boo frikkin hoo*
 
2004-12-16 12:45:48 PM  
Your pledging allegiance to the FLAG, ergo you support where it is planted and what is done by the country it represents, which is why not saying it is fundamental freedom of speech.

BTW, I pledge allegiance to the CONSTITUTION of the US and the REPUBLIC IT CREATED, which, apparently, is just about dead.

/loyalty oaths are the ultimate form of PC, but just defend "Merry Christmas" with your life like that's what's important
//turn off Fox News and read Thomas Paine you fcukn 'tards
///actually, that's an insult to 'tards
 
2004-12-16 12:45:56 PM  
The First Caramel Cod: Christmas trees.

Someone's been listening to Hannity/Rush/O'Reilly/Jerry Falwell or a combination thereof.
 
2004-12-16 12:46:04 PM  
"Simply omitting the words would have made his point better and not given his idiotic coleagues as much ammunition"

Come on. Are you really that naive that you think that they'd let him slide by leaving out the two words? The argument would just change to "but he's not REALLY saying the pledge...he's not saying the whole thing!!!"

Here's a question - if people think it's so important that loyalty is pledged, why not simply take out the damn "under god" that was never there in the first place. More people would be willing to voluntarily say it, and you'd have less of these witch hunts.


"Where do your allegiances lie if not with The United States of America?"

Sounds like what the Chinese governent asks (substituting China for USA obviously) right before they run you over with a tank.
 
2004-12-16 12:46:45 PM  
2004-12-16 12:45:39 PM Bildo

You are an unAmerican, worthless piece of sh*t.

And you're going to hell! ;)
 
2004-12-16 12:47:04 PM  
"As a government representative, this tool...."

Your comment ends there.
 
2004-12-16 12:47:08 PM  
[image from evolvefish.com too old to be available]
 
2004-12-16 12:47:16 PM  
Bildo,

You are correct.
 
2004-12-16 12:48:11 PM  
JabbaTheButt

Jabba, a good troll doesn't use the words "hate america" and "flame on" in a post. It's a bit like using the [image from img.fark.com too old to be available] tag when posting a Weekly World News article. It ruins the joke by being too obvious.
 
2004-12-16 12:48:44 PM  
thoughtcrime, anyone?
 
2004-12-16 12:49:45 PM  
Why does the pledge say you pledge alleigance TO THE FLAG of the united sttaes of america? Why are we pledging alleigance to a flag? Why isn't it "I pledge alliegance to the united states of america"?

And why do we have kids saying it in school every morning? It didn't make me love my country any more. In fact, it was an annoyance.

Oh wait... I forgot the next verse "and to the republic for which it stands". So I guess that the united states is a republic. Whatever that is. But you're still pledging alleigance to a FLAG first and foremost.

So, removing god from the pledge as well, the pledge should go like this:

"I pledge alliegance to the United States of America. One nation, individsible, with liberty, and justice, for all."
 
2004-12-16 12:49:46 PM  
He isn't being impeached, he is being re-called. Because people now either dont know where he stands or they think they do and don't like it. That is their right! Like it of not.
 
2004-12-16 12:50:00 PM  
why hasn't this been posted yet?
 
2004-12-16 12:50:17 PM  
The First Caramel Cod:

Christmas trees.
Accuracy in high school History classes.
McDonalds.
People who work hard.
Quality education.
Monogamy.
Gun owners who wish to protect their families.
Steak.
John Wayne.
Clean clothes.


Accuracy in high school History classes?? Are you one of those morans who believes in creationism?
People who work hard? Quality education? WTF??

You must be offended by common sense and logic.
 
2004-12-16 12:51:48 PM  
Oh, one more question.... Why is it that liberals and atheists are the most easliy 'offended' people around. Why in the world would saying under god be offensive?
Thats right, cause you're a liberal and an atheist who is easily offended.
Amazing how thin skinned and STUPID liberals and atheists have become.
Check between your legs, cause you wont find any balls down there.
/FLAME ON!!
 
2004-12-16 12:52:00 PM  
maudibjr
"This is my key problem. They are wasting taxpayers money, especially since he is a dead-duck politician who will be off the council anyway due to term limits.

While I am ambivilant towards his stance on the pledge, I would immeaditly vote this councilwoman out on her ass for spending a signifigent portion of the small towns budget to accomplish essentialy nothing, except make themselves feel good and patriotic inside. Any public servant who so blantenly wasts my money should be removed from office."



Good point, but unfortunately, the Cotton Mather types will think it's money well-spent purifying their public office.
 
2004-12-16 12:52:19 PM  
Estes Park! Ah, my home away from home and Summertime Mecca. RMNP kicks your ass!
 
2004-12-16 12:52:32 PM  
BTW, take a look at the vote on that page. Overwhelmingly for booting the guy.

/just sayin
 
2004-12-16 12:52:36 PM  
maffick

Okay, you need to take a Paxil, little man.

a) Er, how is it "not too bright"? If he says an altered version of the Pledge, then he isn't saying the Pledge. We do have an official Pledge of Allegiance, you know, and saying it in any other way is not saying it, even if the words are similar. "I promise to aid my country, and its flag, blessed by God, with freedom for everyone" is an awful lot like the Pledge, but it isn't the Pledge.

a2) Personal attacks and quoting others does not advance your argument a whit.

b) Jesus freak? Seriously, was that me you were insinuating to be a Jesus freak? Me? Really?

If so, "you're not too bright".
 
2004-12-16 12:52:45 PM  
The pledge has no purpose anyways. All it does is cause blind patriotism. We're the only country with a pledge. It's total bullshiat, just a prayer to the U.S.A. We'd be better off dropping it altogether.
 
2004-12-16 12:53:27 PM  
JabbaTheButt:

Oh, one more question.... Why is it that liberals and atheists are the most easliy 'offended' people around. Why in the world would saying under god be offensive?

Tell ya what, change it to "under Allah". See how you feel then.

Thats right, cause you're a liberal and an atheist who is easily offended.

*yawn*

Amazing how thin skinned and STUPID liberals and atheists have become.

*yawn*

Check between your legs, cause you wont find any balls down there.

*yawn*

/FLAME ON!!

You ain't worth it.
 
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