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(Denver Channel)   Estes Park may oust councilman who refuses to say the Pledge of Allegiance before council meetings   (thedenverchannel.com ) divider line
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6068 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Dec 2004 at 11:32 AM (11 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2004-12-16 11:57:38 AM  
I'm offended by the Peldge too.
 
2004-12-16 11:57:45 AM  
red state
 
2004-12-16 11:58:00 AM  
"p.s. I can't BELIEVE that Americans care about this so much. I can't tell you how glad I am to be Canadian."

Not all of us, just the loudest ones. The rest of us are shouted down and told to stop hating America when we complain.

As for the issue, it's not like the council themselves are making the decision but it's the people who get to decide. He's probably better off not representing folks like that anyway.
 
2004-12-16 11:58:13 AM  
I completely agree that they should kick him out. If they've got a council member who can't figure out how to say the rest of the original pledge without saying the words he finds offensive that were added later, maybe his town is better off without him.

Hint:

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands. One nation,this is the tricky part, you have to NOT say anything indivisible whew you made it with liberty and justice for all.
 
2004-12-16 11:58:29 AM  
It's not like Dick Cheney is forcing people to sign loyalty oaths to attend his speeches. Oh, wait, he is.
 
2004-12-16 11:58:36 AM  
mccarthyism
 
2004-12-16 11:58:46 AM  
Note to the bible-thumping, right-wing, religious zealots that insist on telling ME what it is that I should say or do:

LEAVE ME ALONE! JUST AS IT IS YOUR RIGHT TO WORSHIP ON YOUR KNEES TO SOMETHING THAT YOU THINK IS THERE, IT IS MY RIGHT TO NOT DO THE SAME.

Just because you are emotionally and mentally lacking and choose to pray to an invisible man for help does not mean that I want your views shoved down my throat. Those of us that do NOT want it in government places are not asking you to NOT believe, we are asking you to use EVERY OTHER PLACE afforded to you by the constitution to spout your very out-of-date theories. Pray at home. Pray at church, pray on the street corner with a cross tied to your back for all I care. Just keep it the fark out of where I sometimes HAVE to go.

/sick of religion. The root cause of EVERY war and most of the political strife in the world.
//Ya, sign me up for that.
 
2004-12-16 11:58:58 AM  
Just do the original pledge, the one that doesn't mention God and says 'my flag' instead of 'the flag of the United States of America.'
 
2004-12-16 11:59:30 AM  
The Pledge was written by a socialist, anyway.
 
2004-12-16 11:59:44 AM  
[image from img.fark.com too old to be available]
 
2004-12-16 12:00:09 PM  
Sounds like the councilwoman is a jebus-believing soft-headed half-wit. SHE is the criminal here!
 
2004-12-16 12:00:39 PM  
2004-12-16 10:13:25 AM Unfreakable
And KyngNothing, that was exactly what I thought of when I first heard this story.

/Major Major Major Major surrenders


Me three. Where is Major ________ de Coverly when you need him?

/favorite book; check the profile
 
2004-12-16 12:00:41 PM  
I can't believe that so many people would actually oust this guy. But, what I really can't beleive is that this guy is making this stand to begin with.

If he has a problem with the pledge, why doesn't he simply, and voluntarily, omit those words himself?

That's what I do. Not that I often find myself saying the pledge. But, when I do, I simply go silent for those two words.
 
2004-12-16 12:01:05 PM  
whoa...check out the poll.
 
2004-12-16 12:02:50 PM  
Dalai Lama: whoa...check out the poll.

Probably got freeped.
 
2004-12-16 12:03:00 PM  
He took his oath of office. What more does he have to do?
Trappings do not equal patriotism.
 
2004-12-16 12:04:06 PM  
This story has been up on freerepublic for a while, so the poll has probably been freeped.

Freepers are the kings of double-think and cognitive dissonance. They only like polls that they can cram electronically, using software specific for that task, or are in their favor by wording.
 
2004-12-16 12:04:29 PM  
The First Caramel Cod

There's nothing in the article to say that he finds the pledge "offensive". He has no beef with the rest of the councillors saying it. It's just that he doesn't agree with the "under god" part. How can someone in all good conscience make a pledge regarding something they don't believe in? That would be insincere, and there's too much insincerity in politics already. Would you trust someone who pledges to something they don't believe in?

This guy just wants to continue not saying the pledge. It's his opponents (the pro-pledge folk) who have forced the issue. It's them that seem to find him not saying the pledge "offensive".
 
2004-12-16 12:04:29 PM  
One more town added to the list of places I will never move to.
 
2004-12-16 12:04:40 PM  
Obvious? I'd have to agree with asinine. What's their reason anyway?

I suppose they'll probably get away with it, but if he wanted to take it to court, I'm guessing he'd have a good shot at winning based on the whold church and state thing.

Joe McCarthy is doing a happy spin in his grave.
 
2004-12-16 12:04:47 PM  
He should stand and just not say the "under God" portion if that is what he has a problem with.

The big question for many others who refuse to say the pledge is.

Where do the allegiances of the people lie if not with The United States of America?
 
2004-12-16 12:04:50 PM  
whoa...check out the poll.

Whoa, it looks like 82% of the voters are morans.
 
2004-12-16 12:05:02 PM  
maffick

"2004-12-16 11:37:33 AM Hang On Voltaire
What was the question? Yes we should be allowed to burn the flag in a free country. If you can't the country is not free."

Agree, but I am not talking about criminal penalties.
 
2004-12-16 12:05:59 PM  
I'll bet this guy also is on the "wrong" side of some other issue the flag fags have a boner for. Probably development.
 
2004-12-16 12:06:47 PM  
Tyee
He should stand and just not say the "under God" portion if that is what he has a problem with.

That is exactly what I did in high school. Today, I would probably do the same thing as him.
 
2004-12-16 12:08:10 PM  
Oh, and the pledge is stupid. I have held this opinion since before I knew the meanings of the words "allegiance," "republic," and "indivisible"...yet, was forced to chant them every single school day.

It's farking retarded at best, and Orwellian indoctrination at worst. And you fake patriot asshats can suckle on my ballsack.
 
2004-12-16 12:08:20 PM  
"I completely agree that they should kick him out. If they've got a council member who can't figure out how to say the rest of the original pledge without saying the words he finds offensive that were added later, maybe his town is better off without him."

But that's no fun. When he skips those couple words, he gets ahead of the rest of them and it gets all out of sync.
 
2004-12-16 12:08:35 PM  
durbnpoisn
I agree. Simply omitting the words would have made his point better and not given his idiotic coleagues as much ammunition, to say nothing of the screaming hysterics of the conservatives here in the forums.
 
2004-12-16 12:08:37 PM  
Who is more patriotic: a man who devotes his free time to public service in his community or those who use political pressure to undermine his freedom of conscience?

Also I don't get why you must repeat the pledge of allegiance every day. Does that mean that you only plan on being patriotic for the next 24 hours? Or that you might accidentally forget your country of citizenship? WTF?
 
2004-12-16 12:09:06 PM  
Legally speaking, you do not have to recite the pledge and cannot be made to do so. Do a little research into it and you'll find this out. Or he could do like me and recite the pledge the way it was before the "under god" line was added as I think it has no place in there and was added simply to prove that we were not like the godless communists. This is supposed to be a secular nation folks, religion is supposed to be a private matter.

Oh and BTW, stop calling conservative fundies Nazis, it makes you look stupid. Nazis were Socialists, Socialists were Liberals. The Nazis were the German Reform Party. Not saying Liberals are Nazis, just sayin' :)

//flame on
 
2004-12-16 12:09:30 PM  
LessthanZero

"First off, he's not "disrespecting" the flag. He's not standing for the pledge because of the religious content in it. Who respects his country more, the sheep that stand and say whatever the majority says they should, or the man who does some research, and takes a stand for what he thinks the constitution means?"

I understand your point but the guy could have skipped the "under God" part. From what I can gather the guy is not even standing. I think that is disrespectful
 
2004-12-16 12:09:34 PM  
The First Caramel Cod

He's a misguided liberal and, thus, finds nothing more offensive than the Peldge.

I think something's missing from your post:

[image from maddox.xmission.com too old to be available]
 
2004-12-16 12:10:20 PM  
Get Allah out of my pledge and keep him out!
 
2004-12-16 12:10:21 PM  
Why should he have to omit the words? He doesn't agree with this ritual. Nonparticipation does not affect his ability to do his job. He feels strongly...asking him to 'go along' with it is like asking a black man to 'go along' with participating in a KKK rally.
 
2004-12-16 12:10:50 PM  
buried_alive

So you have no allegiance to the United States of America? Im OK w/ that, but you should know that when you run for a public office in the U. S. of A.
 
2004-12-16 12:11:42 PM  
Nazis were Socialists, Socialists were Liberals.

Wrong, but thank you for playing.
 
2004-12-16 12:12:47 PM  
MissMuse:

Oh and BTW, stop calling conservative fundies Nazis, it makes you look stupid. Nazis were Socialists, Socialists were Liberals.

BZZZT. Nice try, though.
 
2004-12-16 12:13:41 PM  
2004-12-16 12:04:47 PM Tyee
He should stand and just not say the "under God" portion if that is what he has a problem with.

He should whatever the fark he wants to say. Do you have a farking problem with free speech, or is it America in general that you hate?

The big question for many others who refuse to say the pledge is...Where do the allegiances of the people lie if not with The United States of America?

No, the big question is "Who the fark are you to insist that a grown man continually reassert his loyalty to his country, to your satisfaction?"
 
2004-12-16 12:13:59 PM  
"Priest_to_the_Exanimate
Oh great, here come the flag nazis like Hang On Voltair.
The thing that makes the country great is that people are allowed to not care about the flag and you got nothing to say about it so STFU. You're missing the point anyway doofus. He objects to the pledge because of the words "under God." He's got a legitimate beef. I think the inclusion is questionable too. The councilman chooses to express his concerns by not saying the pledge. That's his right. It doesn't mean he dislikes the whole contry."

Doofus? I am not the one who misspelled "country". I agree that the inclusion of "Under God" is questionable, but I think that it is respectful to at least stand for the pledge.
 
2004-12-16 12:14:44 PM  
Tyee

The big question for many others who refuse to say the pledge is.

Where do the allegiances of the people lie if not with The United States of America?


I would say to other individuals and the inalienable freedoms that all people are entitled to. To me, that carries far more weight than allegiance to a patch of land. I think that "liberty and justice for all" is a more important thing than "the republic for which [the flag] stands".

I'm not American (yet), though, so what I say need not matter to you.
 
2004-12-16 12:16:00 PM  

Oh and BTW, stop calling conservative fundies Nazis, it makes you look stupid. Nazis were Socialists, Socialists were Liberals. The Nazis were the German Reform Party. Not saying Liberals are Nazis, just sayin' :)


Yeah, and china is a people's republic...

Was that why Germany and Russia (two socialist paradises) hated each other so much?
 
2004-12-16 12:16:20 PM  
Where do your allegiances lie if not with The United States of America?
 
2004-12-16 12:18:21 PM  
Wait, so now they can hold recall elections for simply not liking the guy (as opposed to real reasons, like incompetence or the like)?

How very amusing.
 
2004-12-16 12:18:25 PM  
Tyee

Where do your allegiances lie if not with The United States of America?


When they voiced objection, Captain Black replied that people who were loyal would not mind signing all the loyalty oaths they had to. To anyone who questioned the effectiveness of the loyalty oaths, he replied that people who really did owe allegiance to their country would be proud to pledge it as often as he forced them to. And to anyone who questioned the morality, he replied that "The Star-Spangled Banner" was the greatest piece of music ever composed


//the more things change...
 
2004-12-16 12:18:35 PM  
America no longer exists. And I'm sure as hell not pledging allegience to nazified Bushmerica.

One nation under Gandalf...Sauroman?
 
2004-12-16 12:18:46 PM  
Tyee
So you have no allegiance to the United States of America? Im OK w/ that, but you should know that when you run for a public office in the U. S. of A.

I have an allegiance to the United States of America. I think it is the greatest country in the world. I do not have an allegiance to this god thing everyone keeps talking about.
 
2004-12-16 12:19:04 PM  
Soulfly232:

God forbid someone doesn't say "under God" in the pledge. Oh wait, there is no God, so we're in the clear. Joke would be on you when we die and there's no afterlife, but it'll be pretty hard for me to say "told you so" after my conciousness has ceased to exist.


Amazingly enough, you say all of this and yet your nick has "Soulfly" in it.

/listen to metal much?
//Bad Religion is teh ghey. Thirty year-old limp wristed pansy rockers who look like they could barely carry their equipment up a flight of stairs, let alone change the world.
 
2004-12-16 12:19:52 PM  
Ignoring any flamewar which this article generates, I agree with the decision to boot him out.

I agree with the separation of church and State, having noticed the mess in other nations where the Church is the State (or temple or whatever) and the mess that causes. Not to mention the mess in Morman dominated Salt Lake City and Utah. However, the Pledge is a time honored loyalty oath, with 'under God' added after WW2 by President Isenhour (SP), who had been a predominate general in the war.

There are some things which it is just not worth it to take a stand on because they're so minor. There are bigger issues to battle.
 
2004-12-16 12:20:58 PM  
2004-12-16 12:16:20 PM Tyee
Where do your allegiances lie if not with The United States of America?

Again...who the fark are you to ask? Who must demonstrate their loyalty to your satisfaction? Your attitude is patently un-American. Are you some sort of communist?
 
2004-12-16 12:21:32 PM  
I just want to say I dislike the whole country (except krispy kreme, and fast food, and um, video games but i guess those are japanese), i mean, gee whiz, all our illusion of safety cost us was 10,000 iraqi civilains! that's like, 5 times the number of americans they didn't kill! Yeah for being the biggest bully on the play ground. course, now the teeny countries are hip to our indian burns and wedgies, and are becoming zelots who bring guns to school. if only we hadn't stolen there lunch money, no one would have gotten shot.

Causality is a mutherwhore
 
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