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(Yahoo)   Marines defend dude that put a cap in wounded "insurgent"   ( divider line
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31449 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Nov 2004 at 11:38 AM (12 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»

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2004-11-16 02:05:51 PM  
The marine probably has flipped out. He probably doesn't deserve any real punishment, but probably should at least have a break and some counseling.

Also, the level of discourse in this thread makes me realize what is wrong with America. Thank you Fark.
2004-11-16 02:06:03 PM  

Funny you should make those arguments, which have been the cornerstone of a lot of people who are dedicated to opposing this war in Iraq.

Why didnt we free China? North Korea? Iran? Saudi Arabia?
All of those pose a more grave threat to US security than Iraq, but we chose to go into Iraq. Yet we hear constantly by this administration that Iraq was a grave threat, then we hear we are there to bring democracy. So what makes it better than these other countries that suffer the same problems?

Why havent we done anything about the terrible tragedy in Sudan? Hundreds of Thousands dead, but we yet we pretend it isnt happening.

We hear about how brutal Saddam Hussein was, but yet we hear nothing about how brutal other regimes have been and are to their own people. As a matter of fact, we are practically in bed and at the mercy of the biggest human rights violator in all liklihood in history, China.

Thanks for making my argument for me.
2004-11-16 02:07:14 PM  
GroverCleveland: "War" means blowing stuff up, breaking things, & don't be suprised if some of the enemy eventually gets a cap in his Arse. These barbarian insurgents are KILLING innocent people!!! Not just our troops, but civilians that have little or nothing to do with the war effort. I say Semper Fi!! Bullets are a helluva lot cheaper than housing these Monsters in a P.O.W. camp & catering to them like they're on frickin' vacation.
2004-11-16 02:07:19 PM  
In this thread, there are Liberals who call themselves Conservatives, and Conservatives who call themselves Liberals.

Nobody seems to know their own political nature.

[image from too old to be available]
2004-11-16 02:08:08 PM  
king george

1) The Viet Cong teen had an RPG launcher.
And Kerry shot him in the back.

If you fault the Marine you have to fault Kerry. Instead you probablly voted for him and used his medals as a reason to qualify him for the job.

I don't fault Kerry but I wouldn't didn't vote for him anyway.

Actually, no you don't have to fault Kerry if you fault the marine. Reread what you psoted and figure out why. If you can't find the differences in the two scenarios and how one should be investigated as a potential war crime, and how one was obviously not, get back to me and I will explain.
2004-11-16 02:08:21 PM  
Shoot first, ask questions later?

/Sometimes ya gotta bite the bullet.
2004-11-16 02:08:36 PM  
2004-11-16 01:57:23 PM mykelone

"Why isnt there an "" for the villagers murdered in Sudan? (or any other African nation in strife right now). Or in North Korea? Or the political prisoners in China?

people should be more horrified and alarmed at whats goin on in these places
unfortunatley western world doesn't seem to care much about Africans, Chinese, or North Koreans"

The answer is (ding ... ding...ding...ding)! NO OIL!
2004-11-16 02:08:38 PM  

Blood makes the grass grow greener - kill, kill, kill! Semper Fi, do or die!

fark the farking farker. I hope he enjoyed his lead sandwich.

Do it to them before they do it to you. Anyone who's ever been shot at knows what I'm talking about.
2004-11-16 02:08:45 PM  

I'm so proud. Daddy's first link, and now it's all grown up!

I know a few people have asked about why "insurgent" is in quotation marks. First of all, it's a tip of the cap to the Bush administration's penchant for newspeak. "Insurgent," "enemy combatant," "terrorist," we'll call them whatever we can to avoid the Geneva Conventions. Secondly, it was also an acknowledgment of his uncertain status. Insurgent or POW? Rebel bent on expelling a foreign occupier, or freedom-hating obstructer of progress? You decide!
2004-11-16 02:08:52 PM  
2004-11-16 02:07:19 PM Beerden
fark that.
I'm an American, plain and simple.

Think outside the label.
2004-11-16 02:08:52 PM  
This is how it goes down with some of the Iraqi public:

"The mosque strewn with bodies of Iraqis- not still with prayer or meditation, but prostrate with death- Some seemingly bloated an old man with a younger one leaning upon him legs, feet, hands, blood everywhere The dusty sun filtering in through the windows the stillness of the horrid place. Then the stillness is broken- in walk some marines, guns pointed at the bodies... the mosque resonates with harsh American voices arguing over a body- was he dead, was he alive? I watched, tense, wondering what they would do- I expected the usual Marines treatment- that a heavy, booted foot would kick the man perhaps to see if he groaned. But it didn't work that way- the crack of gunfire suddenly explodes in the mosque as the Marine fires at the seemingly dead man and then come the words, "He's dead now."

"He's dead now." He said it calmly, matter-of-factly, in a sort of sing-song voice that made my blood run cold and the Marines around him didn't care. They just roamed around the mosque and began to drag around the corpses because, apparently, this was nothing to them. This was probably a commonplace incident.

We sat, horrified, stunned with the horror of the scene that unfolded in front of our eyes. It's the third day of Eid and we were finally able to gather as a family- a cousin, his wife and their two daughters, two aunts, and an elderly uncle. E. and my cousin had been standing in line for two days to get fuel so we could go visit the elderly uncle on the final day of a very desolate Eid. The room was silent at the end of the scene, with only the voice of the news anchor and the sobs of my aunt. My little cousin flinched and dropped her spoon, face frozen with shock, eyes wide with disbelief, glued to the television screen, "Is he dead? Did they kill him?" I swallowed hard, trying to gulp away the lump lodged in my throat and watched as my cousin buried his face in his hands, ashamed to look at his daughter.

"What was I supposed to tell them?" He asked, an hour later, after we had sent his two daughters to help their grandmother in the kitchen. "What am I supposed to tell them- 'Yes darling, they killed him- the Americans killed a wounded man; they are occupying our country, killing people and we are sitting here eating, drinking and watching tv'?" He shook his head, "How much more do they have to see? What is left for them to see?"

They killed a wounded man. It's hard to believe. They killed a man who was completely helpless- like he was some sort of diseased animal. I had read the articles and heard the stories of this happening before- wounded civilians being thrown on the side of the road or shot in cold blood- but to see it happening on television is something else- it makes me crazy with anger." - An Iraqi
2004-11-16 02:09:15 PM  
thetrailerparkprincess [TotalFark]

F 'em and feed' em hotsauce.

I can only pray that my husband does the same thing. Swiss cheese their arses.

You know, you guys are really gonna earn that suitcase nuke. I grew up thinking there was next to zero difference between americans and canadians. Oh the foolishness of youth. All the hatred spewing out on these forums from slothful idiots that know more about the monday night primetime lineup then the world around you. You've already lost your friends, now you get to wait for the armies of children who lost their parents in Iraq to grow up and take the fight to you. You're on the losing side of statistics this time.
2004-11-16 02:09:21 PM  

Guess I'm a liar and an idiot

I wouldn't say you're a liar. Did you not read the statistic? 95% are Iraqi. Al-zarqawi is a member of that 5%.

I'll spell it out:

If Insurgency > 50% Iraqi, then Albert is an idiot.

Since Insurgency = 95% Iraqi, then we know that the accompanying statement, reliant upon the inequality, is true. Thus, you are an idiot.
2004-11-16 02:09:26 PM  
Is it O.K. to answer unethical behaviour with equally unethical behaviour?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

/learned everything I needed to know in kindergarten
//might be making a good case for continuing one's education past kindergarten
2004-11-16 02:10:10 PM  

Look a bit deeper into the PNAC before you make your tin foil hat comment. And please, wear one of those hats if it helps to warm-up your brain into a thinking mode.
2004-11-16 02:10:17 PM  

FACT: Most of the world would hate us anyway.
FACT: Most of the world is even more corrupt.

So you just recommend sinking to the level of any old dumbshiat out there? Then guess what! That makes you a dumbshiat too!

woopie! Go USA! Touchdown!
2004-11-16 02:10:30 PM  

you don't get to armchair quarterback a war just because it offends your delicate sensibilities.

Bullshiat. Just because the military has a useful purpose does not men they get a free pass on everything they do. And our government, which gives orders to the military, sure as hell does not get a free pass on any damned thing.
2004-11-16 02:10:51 PM  

Oh, that freedom that I didn't earn, huh?

I didn't earn by paying taxes, contributing to the GDP, volunteering in my community huh?

Those taxes that fund the military, that GDP that keeps the United States ahead in the global economy, the hours that I spend helping feed the homeless, spending time with veterans, keeping parks and neighborhoods clean, building homes for people less fortunate?

You sir are a cock-farker of the highest caliber. Your narrow mindedness deserves a trophy, one that you can sit and stare at to stroke your own ego until the day you die.
2004-11-16 02:11:09 PM  
i refuse to call a soldier elimiating a potential threat in a warzone unethical
2004-11-16 02:11:13 PM  
Is America becoming all the things it hates?
2004-11-16 02:11:23 PM  

O give me a break you know damn well no one gives a shiat about this dead soldier (at least here and in the States) because of their overzealous support of our troops and general hatred to most people in that region. This is one of those things that I imagine A LOT Of marines do, but he was unlucky to get caught. THey have to court martial this guy. If this doesn't pass as a war crime, I don't nkow what is..
2004-11-16 02:12:25 PM  
Mentioned this late in the previous thread on this story...

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned it yet but the dead insurgents could arguably qualify for Darwin Awards. They were/are stupid for staying when they are hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned.

/I told'ya I'd shoot but you didn't believe me.
/Why didn't ya believe me?
//too obscure?
2004-11-16 02:12:37 PM  

I'm concerned that we are just escalating a conflict that our future sons and daughters will still be fighting. I want the United States to be respected and admired in the middle east and throughout the world. Now we are hated and feared. I guess my overall point is the only potential positive that can come from this (other than -1 insurgents) is if the Iraqi people see that Americans hold ourselves accountable for breaking the rules. Same for the Abu Ghirab mess.

I guess that's progress... we used to be just hated.
2004-11-16 02:12:48 PM  
To all those people classifying this Marine as a soldier, he earned the title Marine, not soldier.
2004-11-16 02:12:49 PM  
Uncle Eazy
I've never been in combat, and can't pretend to know what goes on, but you have to give the soldiers some latitude.
I have never had my country invaded, and can't pretend to know what goes on, but you have to give the Iraqis some latitude with all these beheadings they are doing. Funny how the first statement is acceptable to some of you but the second one is not.
2004-11-16 02:13:05 PM  
Difference between Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II

Bush I and Clinton:

Following the first Iraq was and the War in Bosnia, both of these men were seen as international heros. Shop owners in Kuwait and Bosnia often put pictures of these men on their walls. Despite any personal or political failings, they are generally respected in the world community and seen as men who improved the perception of America throughout the world, with wars of limited scope with clear goals and exit strategies based on sound reasoning and international support, each helping to stabilize each area and lead to better relationships between neighboring countries and the US. Seen as uniters, not dividers.

Bush II

He can stay on message with the best of them.
2004-11-16 02:13:16 PM  
2004-11-16 02:11:13 PM Gavino [TotalFark]

Is America becoming all the things it hates?

I'd say it's become the thing it pays lip service to hating.

Remember the last scene of Animal Farm?

Where's Orwell when you need him?
2004-11-16 02:14:59 PM  
I-baLL: Anybody who supports this Marine's actions please answer the question: Why are we in Iraq for?

The majority of Americans support the war, and hence support the horror and inhumanity of war.

And, we're in Iraq for one reason, and only one reason. Power. Primariliy, power that can only be purchased with oil, but maintaining the strong dollar is part of it too.
2004-11-16 02:15:16 PM  
Mister.44: How Ironic you cant see that the rest of the world doesnt condone thier beliefs - but we are the assholes.

Bravo, congratulations for completely missing my point. The irony I referred to was about the hate-filled rhetoric of most pro-war people being almost word-to-word what the other side of the conflict uses to justify their actions. Yet, the pro-war people are so much better and moral than those hateful A-rab terrists. The lack of introspection is staggering.

This is the reason why you do a pretty good job to appear assholes yourself, no need for help there. What pisses off us foreigners so much is the veneer of hypocricy over the whole affair. You went to a war whose rationale was based on lies and misinformation, and when those dried up, suddenly the affair was on the lines of "riding white horses, with their armours gleaming, Americans rode to Iraq to free the country and nothing they do can be anything but justified and gallant, and oh yeah, liberating the Iraqi people was the main reason they went there right from the beginning". Why won't you cut the crap, admit the whole war was a misadventure and try to help to get the whole sordid affair over with, suffering and causing as little casualities and damage as possible, instead of the two-braincell "kill em all!" -crap.

I thought liberals wanted things like womens rights, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc etc. The fanatics want NONE of that - yet you make them out to be some brave minutemen! Give me a break!

Who is this "you" you are speaking to? I challenge you to point the comment where I sympathise with the insurgents?
2004-11-16 02:15:21 PM  

Hmm idiot of the day.

Can a dad hate seeing his son potentially get hurt playing on the football team every night, but still drive him to practice, tell him he a did a good job, buy him equipment, and offer encouragement because that is what his son found enjoyment in doing?
2004-11-16 02:15:33 PM  

Is there a line that separates "ethical military action" from "war crime"? I am sure the various Codes and Conventions are a little vague, but I can imagine it is a diffcult call to make in the heat of battle.

Yes, there are general rules and specific rules for each battle, known as the Rules of Engagement. I'm no expert on this, but those rules define when and who you can shoot, basically. That marine was operating under a set of those rules and he will be judged as to whether he broke them or not. Part of the general rules are things like the Geneva Convention that we have agreed to that dictate how we handle non-combatants. What will probably he up in the air will be the specific definition of what constituted a combatant in those circumstances and whether the iraqi that was playing dead met the criteria.

Is it O.K. to answer unethical behaviour with equally unethical behaviour?

The U.S. military does not think that's okay. Clearly it does happen sometimes (Abu Ghraib), but it is not officially condoned.
2004-11-16 02:16:15 PM  
you know what this marine did ?

he kept one more tard from becoming a suicide bomber... kept one more tard from driving a truck full of explosives into the barracks.... kept one more tard from waving a white flag as if he's surrendering, only to blow himself up when US soldiers get near him...

he helped this tard get to his 70 farking virgins. deal with it.
2004-11-16 02:16:20 PM  
They cut that lady's head off so its ok that he shot that guy.

/i'm learning neo-con!
2004-11-16 02:16:32 PM  
Watch the liberals destroy this Marine just because they hate America and what it stands for. You guys are still sore from the election so you're taking it out on him. Losers!!
2004-11-16 02:16:35 PM  
binnstar what do you tell her when that "completly helpless" man pulls a pin and wounds 6 soldiers?

did you know he was completly helpless?
was this a fact?
2004-11-16 02:17:05 PM  
The idea of completely giving up the moral high ground while claiming to be on a mission from God to spread freedom and democracy... Isn't there some sort of disconnect there, even for the fiercest chickenhawks here?
2004-11-16 02:17:33 PM  
Too bad they won't show the whole video on TV, then all you military nazis could tape it and cheer over and over again when the unarmed, wounded old man's head splatters. That would be so like, totally cool to show at party's? Eh, dickwads?

You people make me sick.
2004-11-16 02:17:38 PM  
2004-11-16 01:34:47 PM Geotpf

"Approximately 100,000 civilians have died in Iraq, 95% of which were killed by US planes or helicopters."

Where are the FACTS for this. I find it so hard to believe that twice as many civilians have died in this war compared to all all the US soldiers who died in Vietnam. If that were the case, we'd be fighting many more times the number of "insurgents" than we are currently.

The fact is our gov't doesn't want to keep track of that number because of the negative publicity it would cause. Since our gov't shuns the truth we are forced to come up with best estimates like this.

Here's some sources for you.
2004-11-16 02:17:51 PM  
Damn it! Marines are MARINES, not "soldiers"!!

Good job, Devil Dog! Devil Dog-- that's ironic... (france)
2004-11-16 02:18:42 PM  

On the contrary, it does bother me that the military doesn't keep records. Because at least it would provide some counter when some yahoos want to call our servicemen and women "baby killers" without context. It would also serve as a reminder as to why we shouldn't get involved in these sorts of conflicts.

But I would also remind you that the same voices that are crying out now about America's murdering of the innocents have exaggerated (lied) repeatedly in the past (the deaths in Afghanistan, the progress of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan and the "massacre" at Jenin are a few of the exaggerations) and totally disregard the murders perpetrated by non-American (and non-Western) regimes (China, USSR, Iraq, Iran, Cambodia, etc).
2004-11-16 02:18:47 PM  
is anyone interested in peace anymore?
i mean peace, like ,no fighting , and solving problems like intelligent thinking compassionate beings?
2004-11-16 02:19:14 PM  

hasn't it pretty much been agrred that the abu ghraib techniques were officially sanctioned from the top (not including the taking of pictures and wild grinning)
2004-11-16 02:19:17 PM  

you must live in one of them low IQ States
2004-11-16 02:19:55 PM  
For those of you who think this Marine overreacted.

I'd like to see how trusting of the enemy you are after having bullets wizzing by you for days. It's not like it is in the movies. It's very VERY scary. I've been shot at before, not in war, and I'll tell you that it took me a long time to regain my sanity.

I'd have pulled the trigger myself too. Notice how they didn't kill the 2nd guy that was alive in that video? They wheren't out to exterminate them.

The soldier has no way of knowing if that person laying on the ground is getting ready to pull the pin on a granade.

Anyone can view the video on
2004-11-16 02:19:56 PM  
Steve French,

You liberal weeney, Get over yourself. Cry me a river.
2004-11-16 02:20:19 PM  
binnstar what do you tell her when that "completly helpless" man pulls a pin and wounds 6 soldiers?

did you know he was completly helpless?
was this a fact?

So... because they weren't sure that the Iraqi was completely helpless... it became a fact that he was armed?
2004-11-16 02:20:28 PM  
Shoot, Shoot often, bring lots of guns, bring all your friends with guns, tell them to shoot. then come home to your loved ones because, and this may amaze some of you bleeeders, they ARE more important to me than the 'insurgents' shooting at them.
2004-11-16 02:20:35 PM  
I guess what we have here is the two major philosophies in life clashing. The two main philosophies are presumption of guilt or of innocence. When you presume guilt, everyone is fair game unless they are on your pathetic little side. When you presume innocence, everyone is a bystander until proved otherwise.

This marine's actions I understand, and sympathasize with, but I do not, and cannot, condone them. To do so would put forward the notion that it is okay to kill unarmed, wounded prisoners in any case, which it is not. It would also invite others in the world to act this way towards our side. This is a not one of my goals.

People like OldButFast and Dancin_In_Anson are aberrant. There is something primitive, damaged, or just wrong with their ethical development. As long as they restrict themselves to speech, they are of course free to pursue their warped agenda. They are, however, why the rest of the world is coming to loathe America more and more.

If anyone here truly believes that America is invincible, I invite them to take note of history. No empire has failed to crumble, save our own, and ours is pitifully new. We are the only undefeated people, with the exception perhaps of Canada, on earth. This should not make us bold, but rather cautious. It is a prime universal human trait to assume that because something has not yet occurred, it never will. This trait does not change the fact that eventually, it always does.

In the sixties, Malcolm X and Martin Luther King were the two most powerful leaders in the attempt to emancipate Black Americans from the second class status they held in our society. Both men are dead, assassinated in their prime. Both men led movements the focus of which was to gain ground for their people and make progress for a just society. One of these men advocated war, the meeting of violence by violence; the other, peace and success through non-violence. While both were justified, who is regarded as the more effective, lauded individual? Which of these two led the movement that caused the most change, that persevered, which of these men is more responsible for the general equality experienced today in America, parts of the south nonwithstanding?

Some of our opponents in Iraq are horrible, twisted terrorists who think nothing of the sanctity of human life or the meaning of existence. They do not believe that we deserve the slightest mercy or consideration, that because we are the enemy, or the Great Satan, we are not truly human, and should be expunged from the face of the earth. Others of our opponents in Iraq are men fighting because of personal loss, or honor, or land, or gain, or because they see no other option. Not all of these men are heroic, or moral, nor do they always do right, the real difference here is not that they are perfect, the difference is they're trying.

So too do some of the people here fall into these categories. We know where Old & Dancin stand... about you?
2004-11-16 02:20:52 PM  
That was the point of the book: Choosing Civilty by P.M. Forni. I have learned alot from it, and a few other farkers could learn a few things. :)
2004-11-16 02:21:00 PM  

So it was wrong for Hitler to commit genocide in the 1940s but okay for us to do it 150 years ago?

I didn't call GWB a nazi. If you'll quit the knee-jerking attacks for 5 seconds and try to grasp what I'm saying, I'm just making the case that the US has done horrible horrible things and now all of a sudden you want to think we're the shining beacon of light in the world?

But I forget. In today's America the past is irrelevant during war time. That seems to explain why Bush changes the reason we're in Iraq on a monthly basis.

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