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(ABC)   Wisconsin school science curriculum "should not be totally inclusive of just one scientific theory"   (abcnews.go.com) divider line 1146
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16319 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Nov 2004 at 3:48 AM   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2004-11-06 08:40:02 PM
lol creationism a scientific theory, NOW i have heard everything

fark god

god sucks
 
2004-11-06 08:40:11 PM
Too bad Creationism isn't a theory, but a religious ideology. Evolution has its place in science. Creationism does not. Thusly, Creationism does not belong in a science classroom.
 
2004-11-06 08:40:32 PM
goddamit

anyone who wants to teach creationism should be thrown in jail.

Church and State are seperate in the US to protect the government from the church, not the other way around.

nothing to do with religion should be taught in public schools. Private schools, fine.

though out here they have scripture in public schools.
bastards.
 
2004-11-06 08:43:48 PM
I hope this gets greenlit. It would be nice to see a flame war on the main page that didn't have to do with the election.
 
2004-11-06 08:51:04 PM
Lincoln>
Do you honestly think this wouldn't turn into an another Blue State vs Red State thing?
 
2004-11-06 08:51:22 PM
The weird thing is that Madison is about the most liberal city between Boston and San Francisco. The rest of the state is slathered withanti-choice billboards.
 
2004-11-06 08:52:14 PM
FortuneCookie

no but there are always those religious trolls that make things interesting.
 
2004-11-06 08:52:45 PM
Do you honestly think this wouldn't turn into an another Blue State vs Red State thing?

FortuneCoookie, that would be entertaining since it came from a blue state :D
 
2004-11-06 08:53:51 PM
Welcome To The Next 4 Years
We don't need no stinking church/state seperation.
 
2004-11-06 08:56:04 PM
leathermidget, the election is over, you can quit being a dick any time.
 
2004-11-06 08:57:14 PM
WTF is wrong with you people?
 
2004-11-06 09:03:35 PM
At least Kansas won't be the laughing stock the nation regarding this discussion anymore.

Thanks Wisconsin.
 
2004-11-06 09:17:18 PM
leathermidget, the election is over, you can quit being a dick any time.

what, this doesn't scare you? fairy tales being taught as solid science?
 
2004-11-06 09:21:37 PM
Well.
 
2004-11-06 09:29:55 PM
Whew, yes, the election is over. Now all of those concerns people had about right-wing religious zealots ruining the country are no longer valid.
 
2004-11-06 10:00:35 PM
yes, a flamewar where we can all just laugh at the fundies would go a long way towards the healing we need, I think.

/mothra twins are hot
 
2004-11-06 10:25:41 PM
usual geek

Pretty much, yeah. There's only a select few Farkers who would rabidly defend the teaching of a religious doctrine in a science classroom.

 
2004-11-06 10:38:23 PM
What a crock of shiate.
 
2004-11-06 10:45:15 PM
2004-11-06 08:56:04 PM ChadManMn

leathermidget, the election is over, you can quit being a dick any time.


I'm sorry if I've somehow offended you. I don't think pointing out the legitimate and publicly stated goals of religious extremists is being a dick. These religious extremists also happen to be holding the reigns of power in my party, which, through fear, intimidation, lies and outright fraud have control of my country. They have also insinuated themselves into power at all levels of local and state government, again, often through fear, intimidation, lies and fraud. My views on these extremists did not start with the election, why should they end with it?

These people are Theocratic at their core and have no respect for the separation of church and state that is so fundamental to the unique and valuable character of our government. Go to any "Christian" TV channel. Sooner or later, you'll see someone advocating that America should be a "Truly Christian Nation". Or, to put it in plain English, a Theocracy.

How any mature mind, in my party or the Dems could be a party to such fundamentally unamerican activity is beyond me, but apparently it makes me a "dick" to oppose such views.

I see far more dickotry in the constant refrain, from the radicals and their amatuer astroturfers, across the country of "Get over it!" & "Move on!" in order to attempt to quiet legitimate dissent.
 
2004-11-06 10:45:47 PM
Science = observe the facts, form a theory, test the theory, form a conclusion
Creationism = start with your conclusion, acknowledge facts that fit your conclusion, ignore all else. No theory involved.

I personally spent five years of my life as a Creationist. In all that time, never once did I read anything from the pen of anyone who wasn't also a Creationist. Creationism survives not because it is a viable scientific theory, but because thousands of lay people all over the country uphold it as "Truth" in the same way the uphold the Bible. It is Fundamentalism's answer to the modern world, a place of refuge for those who cannot bear to look real science in the eye.

For those looking for real answers regarding evolution, try The Talk Origins Archive
 
2004-11-06 10:55:39 PM
leathermidget:
Dammit, you need to learn how to TF. Don't put together a well-reasoned, rational response to someone calling you a dick. Just tell them they need to be kicked in the box and shoved, and move on.
 
2004-11-06 11:04:57 PM
There was a good article in WIRED about this disturbing trend.

That it is even possible for this to be taught as science is sad and scary.

To me creationism, now rebranded Intelligent Design boils down to "You can't explain every little detail, or if you can I can't comprehend it, therefore this must be the work of God."

If some of the religions had their way we would still be taught that the Earth is the center of the Universe.
 
2004-11-06 11:06:04 PM
The christian right is in power now, and that means

 
2004-11-06 11:07:44 PM
2004-11-06 08:56:04 PM ChadManMn
leathermidget, the election is over, you can quit being a dick any time.


Oh yeah? Well, I think it's you who's being the dick. Someone needs to apply a steel-toed boot to that Michael Moore-sized ass of yours. God knows it's about the only thing that'd drive some sense into you!


Is that better Testy?

/I keed with you ChadManMn, because I love you like my own brother.
 
2004-11-06 11:11:12 PM
Javacrucian: I personally spent five years of my life as a Creationist.

The fact that you ultimately were able to learn the real truth gives me hope. Although I fear that your willingness, and being open minded enough to learn the truth are in short supply among the devoutly religious.
 
2004-11-06 11:32:37 PM
I say that we let them teach religion as science in school.

Then, when they get to the pearly gates, God will simply say, "You didn't have faith in me."

"Yes, we did!!"

"No, you didn't. You spent your entire lives looking for ways to prove my existance. You lose, and you're going to hell."

*door drops out under them*

/never could understand people trying to "prove" their faith
 
2004-11-06 11:52:25 PM
/never could understand people trying to "prove" their faith

with the advent of science and reason, the basis for their belief system has fallen out from beneath them. the house of cards is collapsing, and they're doing everything they can to save it. people have so much invested in their religion, and they have no desire to see it all go to naught. they don't want to admit that we don't NEED religion to explain the world, we don't NEED religion to dictate morality, we don't NEED religion as an instrument of social control. they're trying to carve out a niche for their faith in a world in which it is no longer required.
 
2004-11-06 11:53:17 PM
What exactly does one teach in a "creationism" class, anyway?

Is it polytheist, or montheist? Is the creator(s) a male or a female? On what does one base this class? Judaic myth lore, Zoroastrianism, Taoist philosophy, I mean, what?

They might get away with this crap in backwoods cities where it's all whitebread and everyone believes the same crap... but they'd never get away with it in any location where you have people with kids in the schools who believe widely different things about how life first came to be.

And in the whitebread, hick locations, what would it matter, anyway? They already believe evolution is a lie. They'll just be allowed to wallow in their ignorance some more.

If I was a teacher in that Wisconsin district, I'd sue if anyone tried to fire me for not teaching this religious pseudo-scientific crap.

And you know what? I would win, too.
 
2004-11-06 11:54:59 PM
"Last month the Dover Area School Board in Pennsylvania voted to require the teaching of alternative theories to evolution, including "intelligent design" -- the idea that life is too complex to have developed without a creator."

- Obviously these morans have clue zero on how evolution works, or the time involved.

/moving to mars.
 
2004-11-07 12:05:15 AM
surprisingly, grantsburg's schools (elementary, middle, high school) are ranked among the highest in wisconsin.
 
2004-11-07 12:10:07 AM
I can tolerate a lot, but NOT teaching "Creationism," "Intelligent Design," or however you try to legitimize this pseudo science in the classroom. No matter how you disguise it, it's not legitimate science. It doesn't follow the scientific method.

You want to do it at home? That's fine, more power to you. But please don't put it in public schools where there is supposed to a seperation of church and state.
 
2004-11-07 12:12:30 AM
People simply have no farking way to comprehend the immense time scales involved here. If years were miles, your lifetime wouldn't even get you from NY to Philly. Evolution would get you to the sun and back at least 10 times.
 
2004-11-07 12:57:33 AM
luxdsg makes a good point. What creationist idea will you use? I vote for the Norse story because "Yggdrasil" is a cool word.
 
2004-11-07 01:03:58 AM
CableGuy

The fact that you ultimately were able to learn the real truth gives me hope. Although I fear that your willingness, and being open minded enough to learn the truth are in short supply among the devoutly religious.

Thanks, it gives me hope too. I admit though that moving away from creationism, and ultimately Christianity, was very difficult. Nobody likes having their entire worldview shattered; you feel like you're alone and in a free fall. I nearly lost my marriage over it, and to this day I have family that will not even speak to me because I am "backsliden". Still, I know I did the right thing by leaving it all behind, and it's given me some painfully personal insight into how deeply religious minds work.

It's important to know what kind of creationism we're talking about. Many people, Christian and non-Christian alike, believe that science has it's place, and so does God, who works behind the scenes to influence the world and it's evolution. But the kind of creationism that we see being pushed for acceptance in the public schools is almost always Young Earth Creationism, which is the kind of creationism I also believed. According to YEC, the Earth, and indeed the entire cosmos, is less than 10,000 years old. Everything in the book of Genesis is regarded as historical fact, from the creation of a literal Adam and Eve, to Noah's Flood and the animals boarding the Ark in pairs and the following re-population of the world. Anything that states the contrary is a lie from the depraved hearts of men, who are blinded by sin and by Satan. This is what makes it so easy for a Believer to dismiss the scientific community, btw. The facts are meaningless when they are the product of an unholy mind; only the Holy Spirit can impart Truth.

The key to this whole thing is understanding that the starting point for YEC is the unquestioned belief that the Bible is the infallible and inerrant word of God, and should be interpreted literally whenever possible. Once you believe this, it's only logical to accept Genesis as historical fact, because you have God's own word on the matter, and who has more authority than God?

People do not become Young Earth Creationists because evolutionary theory is weak. They become creationists because their worldview demands it; it's a logical extension of their faith. I respect people for trying to keep their theological ducks in a row, and I can understand the distrust of science among those who claim to live in a spiritual world full of angels and demons and powers unseen. But please, this is not about society's tolerance, it's about human knowledge hard won via science versus human superstition made manifest through religion. What you teach your children in your own home is your business, but please, don't insist on teaching my children too.
 
2004-11-07 01:04:08 AM
if there really is a god then why is he such a dick?
 
2004-11-07 02:02:57 AM
I'm with LincolnLogolas

Anything but politics >>>> most
 
2004-11-07 02:53:07 AM
If I were forced to teach this utter tripe, I would do it with gusto, except I would give equal time to every other religious creation theory I could lay my hands on, because we wouldn't want the perception that the State was trying to specifically sponsor or endorse one religion, would we?

:: let them have their cake, and choke on it when the requirement isn't interpreted how they'd like it to be ::
 
2004-11-07 03:54:18 AM
The more BS that's loaded into the school curriculum, the more students will catch on, and the less they'll trust their teachers. If you think the school system is bad now, wait until the students don't believe a word their teachers say.
 
2004-11-07 03:54:47 AM
Why limit this to just creationism/evolution?

Surely there is merit in teaching alchemy and the fire/air/water/earth views alongside chemistry? And teaching about the ether alongside modern electromagnetism and relativity? After all, they are all theories aren't they?
 
2004-11-07 03:55:42 AM
I have an alternative theory that the world was born out of Satan's ass...think they'd go for that?
 
2004-11-07 03:59:08 AM
This whole theocratic backslide is getting way too scary, way too fast.

/submitted earlier with headline "Wisconsin school to teach Creationism. Witch hunts, trepanning 'under consideration'."
 
2004-11-07 04:00:08 AM
The only reason that I would defend this (being from Wisconsin) is that we have had decades of teachers shoving evolution down our throats as fact.

It is not. It is theory. I see no problem with teaching other things that require faith. You have to close your eyes and believe in that non-proven progression, so why not teach them about other non-proven alternatives?

Or does a little competition scare you?
 
2004-11-07 04:02:26 AM
Cool! So they are going to start teaching the theory of how highly advanced aliens created/designed life on this planet? The theory is certainly more sound than one supreme being creating all life, since its easier for us to comprehend a massive effort by countless individuals (aliens) DNA/gene designing in their lifespan (or their work passed down to future alien-children to work on), than it is to imagine one being doing it all.
 
2004-11-07 04:02:35 AM
Ok America, this is what you voted for. Mark my words, this is only the begining. Be afraid, be very afraid.
 
2004-11-07 04:03:07 AM
What does one teach in a creation class? In an American classroom you can bet your ass it is a Xtian god creation, no other theories will be entertained. Humans have evolved about as far as were gonna go until we ban religion.
21st century humans believing in an invisible magic man living in the sky should be a laughingstock, belittled and regarded with a healthy dose of humorous contempt.
 
2004-11-07 04:05:39 AM
 
2004-11-07 04:08:07 AM
Since there seems to be a debate regarding WHICH "Creationist" explanation will be taught, I'll offer this:

"At least one hundred billion years ago, the master of all reality took a shiat and thus the universe was born. But that was not enough. He had to wipe, and what better way than to wipe with war. So he created the SCUM DOGS OF THE UNIVERSE, an ultra elite group of warriors especially culled from the lowest dregs of filth... Chaotic and disease ridden beings who would come to be known as... GWAR"

Say what you will about the music of GWAR, but they put on an EXCELLENT stage show.
 
2004-11-07 04:08:45 AM
Alright, I'm a molecular biologist, and I think teaching alternative theories to Darwin's are perfectly acceptable. Do all you cocksure religion-haters know the difference between theory and law to begin with? No one has proven that a god didn't create the universe. To say that one didn't for sure is a very unscientific thing to say, as you have no evidence. Are you aware that the scientist who gave birth to the field of genetics was a Christian monk? (Mendel). I'm so sick of all these hypocritical ignoramuses mouthing off about how stupid people are to question the theory of evolution. If they were born 200 years ago, they'd probably be the ones calling for heads of the people questioning the popular belief of that time.
 
2004-11-07 04:09:04 AM
'Evolution has its place in science. Creationism does not.'

The bulding blocks of life are quarks.. right? up, down, top, bottom, charm, and strange. So what makes them.. gluons. Gluons? NEUTRINOs right.. well maybe. So what makes the NEUTRINO? Not photons, no. No one knows.. maybe the Higgs Boson.. well more directly the Higgs Field. So what makes the Higgs Boson/field? WTF is my point?

/there has to be a higher power and by no means is it anything we have depicted on this planet.
 
2004-11-07 04:09:16 AM
I can see one reason why Creationism should be allowed in schools. It should be used as a contrast to legitimate scientific theories, and the students can then find fallacies in Creationism. It would give them a chance to analyze a theory with significant flaws, increasing their ability to seperate the wheat from the chaff.
 
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