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(Press Demo)   Taking their cue from Lucas, Sonoma school that banned U.S. flags from senior pic decide to digitally insert one   (www1.pressdemocrat.com) divider line 77
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16481 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Oct 2004 at 2:06 AM (10 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2004-10-23 01:43:52 AM  
america is getting farking crazy. i'm not sure i can handle all this "patriotism".

/enduring freedom vet
 
2004-10-23 02:06:29 AM  
What a strange story. I'm trying to read between the lines, but it's all a little unclear.

They seem to have said that the US flag couldn't be used because 1) last year a Mexican flag was in there and it pissed people off so they decided to just ban all flags, and 2) because people were doing strange and disrespectful things with it.

I think that both of these are good reasons. However, I also think that this ban was too simple a "solution": they should have just come up with rules about what you could and could not be doing with the flag (ie "you must follow the Flag Codes"). This wouldn't have solved the "no foreigners" flap, but what's wrong with having a foreign flag in some kid's individual portrain anyways?
 
2004-10-23 02:12:02 AM  
The average home price in Sonoma County is easily over half a million dollars. It's BIG, BIG money up there, wineries and luxury spa situations. Like San Francisco, Palo Alto, etc.

Not implying the whole "class warfare" thing, but jest sayin'....
 
2004-10-23 02:13:26 AM  
At least they didn't:

...make Greedo shoot first
...add Jar-Jar
...replace the flags with walkie-talkies

(So, there.)
 
2004-10-23 02:15:22 AM  
I agree pmegan. In my graduating class some kid had his senior picture taken whilst wrapped in a Canadian flag.
 
2004-10-23 02:15:50 AM  
"and the high school's principal, Roberto Castro, is an Air Force veteran."

I think he's fidel's brother. COMMIE BASTARDS
 
2004-10-23 02:16:37 AM  
Well I sure hope everyone has there bumper stickers to. I mean come on we all need to shut up and fall in line, it has worked before, and it will work again.

I'm Blacknyte and I have approved this message
 
2004-10-23 02:18:58 AM  
Does anybody have the pic? This begs for a photoshop contest.
 
2004-10-23 02:20:34 AM  
 
2004-10-23 02:24:26 AM  
Flip-floppers.

/always wanted to say that.
 
2004-10-23 02:26:17 AM  
I think it's Hype that someone tried to have a Keg in the senior class photo.. Props to that kid.
 
2004-10-23 02:29:46 AM  
*rolls eyes*

So what if the flag was left off? It's a school pic. I didn't care when I had mine done, nor the class one (either than the fact that I missed Chemistry that day). We were seniors during Gulf War I, and I don't recall anyone being so gung ho about patriotism. We just made sure to support the troops, no matter what we thought of the war. I think being children of Vietnam Vets and Friends of Vets gave us that perspective.

I'm sure I'll be unpatriotic, a terrorist supporter and commie pinko liberal pussy for saying that. Oh well. At least I am not a nerf-herder.
 
2004-10-23 02:31:03 AM  
heh... I didn't know calling someone a Communist was still considered an insult.
 
2004-10-23 02:33:18 AM  
To the pro-flag people: It's just a freakin' piece of cloth.

To the anti-flag people: It's just a freakin' piece of cloth.
 
2004-10-23 02:35:36 AM  
Well put TheKnownUniverse. Pity nobody on either side is willing to be so rational. A flag is just a scrap of cloth. It doesn't matter how much how many people feel about it, or how many people have died over it...it's just cloth.
 
2004-10-23 02:40:26 AM  
Though it makes me feel sad, I can't honestly say that I hate the all the idiotic patriotic auto stickers, or the people who desecrate our flag by turning it into a prop or a decal, or shredding our flag to tatters on their vehicals, or flying our flag aloft in foul weather, or unlit at night.

It is their misguided right to abuse the symbols of our nation, and make no mistake: they do desecrate our colors and our flag with their childish displays.

They are cowards, I think, in need of a deeper confidence that they will never know. It is cowards that I despise.
 
2004-10-23 02:41:10 AM  
Everything I was thinking, pmegan said for me. So, I'll just second that...

/thanks for makin' it easy
 
2004-10-23 02:45:39 AM  
Went to the theater tonight. Listened to six teenage black girls gab into their cell phones during the movie... hating myself for wanting to commit a hate crime. Went out into the parking lot and saw a redneck's car with a Calvin pissing on France. Felt better about wanting to kill him too.

I'm not biased. I just hate you all.

/Good night, America.
 
2004-10-23 02:49:55 AM  
 
2004-10-23 02:58:00 AM  
No pic = not true.
 
2004-10-23 03:01:23 AM  
"The uproar attracted the attention of former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, who met with a group of the students last weekend and took up their cause."

What a bunch of idiots. A little flag waving and some apple pie, and your all raving xenophobics. The pie tasts good, but that empty feeling. . . . . . .

/thought school was about freedom of thought, not pandering
//Good luck America, you have BIG problems
 
2004-10-23 03:02:55 AM  
Red Slayer

Well put TheKnownUniverse. Pity nobody on either side is willing to be so rational. A flag is just a scrap of cloth. It doesn't matter how much how many people feel about it, or how many people have died over it...it's just cloth.

This is something I have never really understood. Have people actually DIED over the flag...or for what it stands for? Because what it stands for seems to be very subjective. Some see the flag as an almighty symbol of supporting the military and the policy of whatever administration happens to be in power and place it squarely in the middle of the conflict of the times (be it Vietnam, Kosovo, Iraq, or whatever)...some see it as a symbol of oppression, hegemony, and imperialism...as the US tries to force its beliefs on the rest of the world.

Frankly, I don't subscribe to either theory.

However people want to treat the flag, it's their business. That's how I feel. If the liberal commie pinko goes out and buys a flag made in China and burns it at some rally, good for him. If some jingoistic redneck waves the flag in support of whatever supreme goodness or evil atrocities the US is spreading/committing at any given time, good for him as well.

If US soldiers died for what the flag represents, they died to let both of those people represent the flag in his own way. Not because it's a piece of cloth.

At least that's my opinion.

But feel free to disregard it, it's almost 3 am, I'm drunk, and the South Park marathon is almost over. So don't listen to me.
 
2004-10-23 03:12:03 AM  
American patriotism = Jingoism
Anyone from any other country being patriotic = Pride

/Proud American
 
2004-10-23 03:19:39 AM  
 
2004-10-23 03:21:15 AM  
Does any other country in the world have students drape themselves in their national flag during school photos?
 
2004-10-23 03:21:25 AM  
Halfmast Trousers


The average home price in Sonoma County is easily over half a million dollars. It's BIG, BIG money up there, wineries and luxury spa situations. Like San Francisco, Palo Alto, etc.

Not implying the whole "class warfare" thing, but jest sayin'....


I have lived in Sonoma my whole life and graduated from Sonoma Valley High in'92. The town has changed considerably since I was a wee lad. While I agree that we have wineries and "luxury spa situations"( I work at one, The Fairmont Sonoma Mission Inn, come check it out:), I do not agree with being compared with S.F. or Palo Alto. First off the town is mainly blue collar. Sure there is a bit of glitz and glamour but that is a very small part of the town. Secondly there is a very large hispanic population that is vital to the economy. I appreciate what they do and have great deal of respect for them. Sadly there are those in town and in the outlying areas that are straight up redneck and are complete @ssholes.

So what do you get? This small town that is known for five star resorts and hillbillies. Class warfare? No, but close. I really want to get away from this town. There is no nightlife for kids or adults and the whole downtown is slowly turning into a sad tourist trap. There is no way that I could afford to buy a house here and to me that is a deal breaker.

These kids are just a product of this environment. Should the flag be allowed? Yeah why not. Should the kids be disciplined? Probably. Could this have been handled in a much more pragmatic way? Fo' Sho'!

This reminds my of a song by Big Black:

I was born in this town
Live here my whole life
Probably come to die in this town
Live here my whole life
Never anything to do in this town
Live here my whole life
Never anything to do in this town
Live here my whole life
Probably learn to die in this town
Live here my whole life
Nothing to do, sit around at home
Sit around at home, stare at the walls
Stare at each other and wait till we die
Stare at each other and wait till we die
Probably come to die in this town
Live here my whole life
There's Kerosene around, something to do...


ahh the smell of kerosene in the morn
 
2004-10-23 03:29:23 AM  
If a flag (or is it just the US flag) is just a piece of cloth, burning it in protest would have the same emotional efficacy as burning, well, a piece of cloth, right?

However, the burning of other countries' flags -- if it has ever been done -- might change the context. If I tromp down the street and start burning flags from France, England, Denmark, (and so on), and gather a bunch of unkempt friends with drums to burn flags from Iran, Jordan, South Africa, Italy, Poland, etc., how many of those countries are going to listen to my Constitutionally protected protest, and go with the whole "just a piece of cloth" thing?

Proof is in the pudding: Go to any country except the US. Get their flag. Burn it in public. Report results.
 
2004-10-23 03:30:34 AM  
I'm not really talking about the article but rather the attitude a lot of people in america have about american patriotism. Don't get me wrong, I'm not overzealous about my patriotism, I don't even own a flag. But I don't classify people who do automatically as jingoists like many americans do. It's just a shame that so many americans feel the need to be ashamed of their country. And it's not necessarily the current administrations fault either. It's been that way for as long as can remember.

I agree that the students shouldn't be allowed to bring their own flags and props to the school photos but there's nothing at all wrong with putting the flag in the background of the class picture. All of my class photos from school have the flag, on a pole, in the corner of the pic... along with the state flag in the opposite corner.
 
2004-10-23 03:32:25 AM  
This is truly scary, the zealousness of youth for flag-waving jingoism. I thought teenagers were supposed to exhibit a little bit of self-reliant rebelliousness for a couple of years before doing the goose-stepping marches with the Salvation Army Band and Shriners on Go-carts. I mean flags are for parades and better-than-thou pride because you come from a spot that others aren't privy to. That's what worries me about these teens. This is just damn odd. When I was in high school most kids cared about music, the opposite sex, cars, sports, drugs and drink, and staying out late. Nobody thought about a flag. Nobody cared enough about a flag to make it an issue. And I grew up mostly on military bases.
 
2004-10-23 03:32:37 AM  
Goatboy242 :

I live in San Luis Obispo. What you said about Sonoma is the same here. Only you're closer to SF so it's happening faster.

My aunt lived in Glen Ellen for 40 years and died a couple years ago. I know the place well. Oh, to be alive in Jack London's day.
 
2004-10-23 03:35:38 AM  
Lace Valentine
Thanks for proving my point. If you're a flag-waving American you're a jingoist. If your a flag-waving foreigner, you have pride.
 
2004-10-23 03:35:40 AM  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_desecration

Good article talking about other countries and flags. Short of it is - people in other countries rarely get in serious trouble (being charged) for desecrating their own flag. There might be a hoo-har on the local right-wing talkback stations - but nothing ever comes of it.
 
2004-10-23 03:38:35 AM  
Lace Valentine
This is truly scary, the zealousness of youth for flag-waving jingoism.


As scary as double-Izod shirts, back tattoos and tapered trousers? Sheesh.

I own a flag, but it's a small one. I'm American, so that's my flag, WTF? My wife is a permanent resident, but doesn't want to become a citizen. Why should she? I lived and worked abroad for years. We have all our flags and stuff and who cares? The American flag now is the same one that has flown for hundreds of years, just like the Italian flag is the one that was paired up with the swastika for a decade or two of fascism, and the French one came about at a pretty ugly time. Flags are people, not politics.
 
2004-10-23 03:43:44 AM  
Perhaps a better statement might be "flag waving person waving flag in their own country (jingoist/nationalist), flag waving person waving their flag in different country (pride)"

Of course calling all "Non-Americans" foreigners on an international forum whilst complaining about the term jingoist is ...

Having travelled to the US many times, what always gets me is the number of flags that adorn places that sell cars. It is nuts. It is like "if you have a car yard in the USA, you need a bajillion US flags around it". I've not noticed that in any other country.
 
2004-10-23 03:51:43 AM  
Halfmast Trousers


If a flag (or is it just the US flag) is just a piece of cloth, burning it in protest would have the same emotional efficacy as burning, well, a piece of cloth, right?

However, the burning of other countries' flags -- if it has ever been done -- might change the context. If I tromp down the street and start burning flags from France, England, Denmark, (and so on), and gather a bunch of unkempt friends with drums to burn flags from Iran, Jordan, South Africa, Italy, Poland, etc., how many of those countries are going to listen to my Constitutionally protected protest, and go with the whole "just a piece of cloth" thing?

Proof is in the pudding: Go to any country except the US. Get their flag. Burn it in public. Report results.


No, I agree. Nobody would
a) BURN the flag
or
b) WAVE the flag

if it didn't have some emotional significance. My point was that often the significance of the action depends both on the person performing the act and the person observing it. The protester burns the flag because (in part, at least) because he/she knows that those that refuse to question authority will find it offensive, trying to make a point; not that the protestor hates America, but hates what America is doing.

On the other side, the nationalistic breed that deems itself patriotic claims the flag as its own because the men and women that have fought, been wounded, and have died in the name of the US served bravely and honorably and should be acknowledged as such. To them, burning the flag, or dishonoring it in any way (such as burning it, or banning it from a high school photo display) would be the same as burning the bodies of the people that have died in the various wars in which the US has engaged.

I don't deny that the flag of ANY country has a great deal of symbolic significance, and any kind of desecration of any country's flag is likely to bring nothing but disgust and outrage from the citizens of that country, unless they understand the display as an honest protest against the actions of the government.

But that just goes to show that the flag (any country's flag) has emotional significance that defies a simple explanation. And the treatment of the flag, whether it be with reverence, protest, or ambivalence, is something that should be left with each individual.

Not to turn this into a flag-burning thread or anything.

Holy damn, it's freakin' late.
 
2004-10-23 03:53:27 AM  
The funny thing is that I guarantee you the kids planned this whole thing. There was no way they could lose. Either they get a chance to shout abuse at their teachers and not get punished or, if punished, they get to make a huge national media circus come to town. I applaud their forethought.
 
2004-10-23 03:54:53 AM  
Well, as an american all non-americans are foreigners to me. It's not a dirty word and I meant it with no disrespect. I am, after all, a foreigner to the majority of the people on the planet. and i would take no offense at anyone from any other country calling me a foreigner... but i do see your point. I should have been more tactful.
 
2004-10-23 03:55:34 AM  
Halfmast Trousers
However, the burning of other countries' flags -- if it has ever been done -- might change the context. If I tromp down the street and start burning flags from France, England, Denmark, (and so on), and gather a bunch of unkempt friends with drums to burn flags from Iran, Jordan, South Africa, Italy, Poland, etc., how many of those countries are going to listen to my Constitutionally protected protest, and go with the whole "just a piece of cloth" thing?

Proof is in the pudding: Go to any country except the US. Get their flag. Burn it in public. Report results.


You jokers go prattling on as though America has a momopoly on patriotism, and then you try to make out that you have a monopoly on tolerance as well?

(ok, having read your bio, you might be playing devil's advocate here) First-hand experience of flag-burning - been to a few demos where we've burned yours, for a start (ok, it was during the Vietnam war). I've also seen the Union Flag burned on more than a couple of occasions too - it's not nice.

However....

I will defend the right of anyone to take a torch to it until the day I die.
 
2004-10-23 03:57:09 AM  
Meshsmooth

If you're a flag-waving American you're a jingoist.

I didn't say anything about a flag-waving American.

I did say "the zealousness of youth."

Now what do the young normally have zeal about? What did James Dean have zeal for in the roles he played-- to live according to his parent's typical American idea of what it means to be patriotic?

Since we're talking symbols here: Dean was a symbol like the flag. The point is just shorthand.

Some of the flag-waving currently displayed in this story in particular is just the war bandwagon, a football game with the losers getting to die like a bad parody of an ancient Mayan sport.

My father served 33 years military; he probably served this country more than you and me and a couple of others combined. I think I have a pretty good idea what it means to be patriotic for our country. I always thought it was to always stand on principle even while facing stern opposition that could include bodily harm. In other words, the reason we should have a Martin Luther King Day.
 
2004-10-23 03:59:01 AM  
*gaaahhh.

monopoly, not momopoly.

How the hell can anyone mumble on a keyboard? I'll be stuttuttering next
 
2004-10-23 04:08:29 AM  
luckyeddie


"You jokers go prattling on as though America has a monopoly on patriotism, and then you try to make out that you have a monopoly on tolerance as well?"


Well said, and funny as hell.
 
2004-10-23 04:15:32 AM  
The point that I'm poorly trying to make is that all too often flag-waving americans are labelled jingoists. Granted that may be the case sometimes, but most of the time they are simply proud to be americans and there should be no shame in that. I do have a flag, on my car, but it's not an american flag. It's a Steelers flag. They often suck and more than once have ripped my still beating heart from my chest and stomped it into the ground, but i still love my Steelers. And there's nothing wrong with that. Same goes for my country.
 
2004-10-23 04:24:06 AM  
It's a Steelers flag.

Dude....the Steelers?...just...nevermind.

(And I'm a Bucs fan, for farks sake)
 
2004-10-23 04:27:09 AM  
Meshsmooth

"...they are simply proud to be americans and there should be no shame in that."


I say it's better to have pride in qualities you had to earn through grit and discipline of talent rather than just being born American. Some citizens, however, have earned even this right to pride in their own citizenship, through service to society or in defense of this country, but most have not.
 
2004-10-23 05:04:27 AM  
Feh...way back when we got our senior class portrait taken, some wisenheimer decided to wear a clock and jewelry like Flavor Flav. Problem? This was a few years before digital retouching of pics.....so they "retouched" our class pic with what would appear to have been a fine point SHARPIE pen. Asshats. What was the deal with that?
 
2004-10-23 05:24:41 AM  
They shoot without shame
In the name of a piece of dirt
For a change of accent
Or the colour of your shirt

Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Then the pride that divides
When a colourful rag is unfurled


Rush, "Territories," Power Windows

...not so much of a commentary, just that the story and thread comments brought the song to mind.

SFY
 
2004-10-23 05:32:55 AM  
orindlt
It is like "if you have a car yard in the USA, you need a bajillion US flags around it". I've not noticed that in any other country.


I don't know about anyplace else, but when I lived in Tulsa, OK. they passed an ordinance barring new and used car lots from tying balloons, streamers etc. from the antennas of cars for sale. Saying it made the neighborhood look tacky. (Although on 11th street in Tulsa, all that's there is cheap motels, crack whores, and car lots. Tackier maybe?)
But they can't hardly ban the American flag from being displayed, and so there you have it. A patriotic loophole.
 
2004-10-23 06:14:22 AM  
I'm not sure I understand. Did the banning include things like small brooches with the flag on them?

If they banned a huge American flag from waving in the background, I can understand that. Though banning it as opposed to just not putting it there seems a little silly.
If they banned things like flag pins from being shown in photos, well, that's just wrong. If the students wish to express themselves through flags on their shirts, then they should be allowed to, whether that flag is American, Mexican, Nepalese, Rwandan or whatever.

Flags are more than just "pieces of cloth". They are physical symbols of abstract values that we can't easily take with us whenever we wish to show our belief in them. Similarly, burning a flag shows our disgust with those values which we feel that flag represents. Okay, so it may just be a literal piece of cloth, but humans are more or less just lumps of meat. You cannot get around the fact that for some things, the meaning and value we attach to them is more important than what they are.

Then again, I suppose I would say that, since I have such an avid interest in them.

/Owns British, Scottish, EU, Imperial German, Betsy Ross American and Confederate flags.
 
2004-10-23 06:22:19 AM  
but humans are more or less just lumps of meat.

And some are lumpier than others.


Clarence "Lumpy" Rutherford
 
2004-10-23 06:24:09 AM  
Good decision.
The school screwed up and had its ass handed to it.




You're a grand old flag,
You're a high flying flag
And forever in peace may you wave.
You're the emblem of
The land I love.
The home of the free and the brave.

Ev'ry heart beats true
'neath the Red, White and Blue,
Where there's never a boast or brag.
Should auld acquaintance be forgot,
Keep your eye on the grand old flag
 
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