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(News Tribune)   NJ grand jury refuses to indict man who shot burglars on his property   (thnt.com) divider line 627
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22192 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Oct 2004 at 2:58 PM (9 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2004-10-22 03:53:36 PM
I've simply learned that some people have very different ideas regarding the value of a human life relative to a manufactured good when I thought it was something we could all agree on. That's all.
 
2004-10-22 03:54:09 PM
Okay, who on this forum DOES own a gun and had to use it to protect themselves, family, or property which involved killing so called prep? Until you have been in above situation, STFU and quit the tuff gun guy act... you're not impressing anyone.

I've pulled my shotgun on an intruder before, but did not have to fire. However, I would have, without hesitation, had the situation required it.
 
2004-10-22 03:54:15 PM
freeboater, "only criminals would have guns" is a way of pointing out the obvious to the oblivious. If only criminals would have guns, law abiding citizens would be unable to defend themselves in instances of home invasion, carjacking, muggings, rape, etc. etc. etc.

You would need to break the law in order to defend yourself. That is illogical.
 
2004-10-22 03:54:39 PM
ksd: "It is NOT o.k. to shoot someone who is trying to steal your ATV, unless you reasonably believe that you or a family member are in grave and immediate danger of being seriously injured or killed. If you or your child don't happen to be ON the ATV at the time, and he's not trying to run you over with it, it's not real likely that you're in much danger."

It didn't say what transpired to get the guy off the ATV, and it being dark, I'm sure it's very easy to say "I thought he had a crowbar/knife/bat/gun in his hand"

Thankfully, Montana has gun laws to allow the use of deadly force when it comes to your property. I'm not a card-carrying, gun-toting, rootin-tooting member of the NRA, but I am fully prepared to defend my home against a person breaking in - and I happen to have a set of the Montana laws pertaining to that usage taped to the side of the fridge as a reminder that I know how the law works.

To make a long story short, everyone that read this article should find out about how their own state handles the use of deadly force, read the laws and understand how it works.
 
2004-10-22 03:54:43 PM
I started reading this thread ready to attack the guy, but after reading the further accounts of the situation from atomsmoosher and Sebastian, I've changed my mind. From this description, the homeowner did more or less what I'd consider reasonable- first confronted the theives and shot only when he thought one was threatening his life.

I'm not fond of the use of deadly force, but I really can't fault the homeowner here. The jury was right not to indict him.

- HC
 
2004-10-22 03:54:53 PM
Fooshnik

"He yelled something from the house and the one that died came toward him. He says he shot the gun in an attempt to keep the guy out of his house."

Sounds good enough. The prosecution must really have their heads up their asses to even have pursued this.


If that's true, I'd tend to agree. I could see where it could be self-defense.
 
2004-10-22 03:54:57 PM
Jail obviously isn't a deterrant for burglars. Look at the break-in crime rate in the UK. They have the highest rate in the world. I think we need more armed people. If burglars were afraid for their lives, they wouldn't mess with people's stuff. I think people have a right to defend their property. We can't depend on the cops to do it.
 
Ant
2004-10-22 03:54:58 PM
2004-10-22 03:46:05 PM freeboater

The whole "only criminals will have guns if guns are outlawed" is the stupidest, most tautologous argument I have ever heard. A person who obtained a gun in such a society would by necessity be breaking a criminal law. There could be no non-criminals with guns.


Let me explain:

Criminals obviously don't obey the law. Why should they care if guns are illegal? How is outlawing guns for everybody supposed to take guns out of the hands of criminals who don't give a shiat about the law in the first place?

The only people who are affected by anti-gun legislation are the people who actually follow the law.

How is that a tautological argument?
 
2004-10-22 03:55:18 PM
voxriot: Seriously, you need to get your Americanisms right. We don't eat rodents here in California. That stuff happens in the southeast. But thanks for laughs, you have brightened my day.
 
2004-10-22 03:55:29 PM
buttcat

Okay, who on this forum DOES own a gun and had to use it to protect themselves, family, or property which involved killing so called prep? Until you have been in above situation, STFU and quit the tuff gun guy act... you're not impressing anyone.

In a criminal context, I've drawn twice. Both times I expected to use deadly force. Both times I got lucky and the criminal decided to drop his weapon and run. Both times I am absolutely certain -- under Pennsylvania law -- that I would have been justified in using deadly force.
 
2004-10-22 03:56:06 PM
bravo. relieved the world of a useless thief. #$%^ prosecutors need to back off and chase real criminals.
 
2004-10-22 03:56:06 PM
Snarfangel-

Proving once again it is better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.

How do you feel about being arse-raped by 25? How does being carried by six sound now?

/hyperbole
 
2004-10-22 03:56:19 PM
I've simply learned that some people have very different ideas regarding the value of a human life relative to a manufactured good when I thought it was something we could all agree on. That's all.

Ah, I think I see the source of disagreement - not all human life is equally valuable.
 
2004-10-22 03:57:06 PM
pentode

Look at the break-in crime rate in the UK. They have the highest rate in the world.

How does their murder rate compare with the US?
 
2004-10-22 03:57:17 PM
I shot a guy with rock salt. He lived, though, I'm sure he wished he had died. I sleep well at night.
 
2004-10-22 03:57:36 PM
Webgrunt: "You seem to think that if someone tries to steal your stuff, you have two chouces: kill them, or do nothing at all and let them get away with it. Maybe you don't think that, but from your post, it seems so.

If someone is trying to steal your truck and you point a gun at them and tell them to leave or better yet, to lie down wait while you call the cops or make a citizen's arrest, that's doing something about it without comitting murder."


It needed to be repeated.
 
2004-10-22 03:57:36 PM
Wizzywig they are? Well, you can't own an AR-15, hollowpoint ammunition, get a concealed gun permit, there's a waiting period, and more. Compared to the rest of the US (especially PA) NJ's gun laws are very strict. Almost as bad a California's.

Of course criminals don't follow laws.
 
2004-10-22 03:57:54 PM
mcflizzy

Perhaps my legal senses are off, but doesn't the prosecutor need to come up with new facts and new evidence in order to retry the defendant, lest his Sixth Amendment rights be infringed? That the first jury heard the case and found it lacking would seem to negate the law with which he was originally charged.

Sixth Amendment is right to speedy trial, right to counsel, and right to confront accuser. You're thinking double jeapordy protection, which is the Fifth Amendment.

I'm not entirely certain, but I believe double jeapordy requires an indictment and trial before an act can be considered tried before a court.

Ant, Cap'nCretin,

I made the obviously absurd analogy to point out the silliness of Dvrdwn's assertion that an attempt at theft automatically devalues the thief's life to less than the property he is attempting to steal.

And Ant, there was no B&E. There was no theft from the home.

Cap'n
Theft does not entail that one assumes all risk of dying. NJ law prevents the use of deadly force to protect property unless the alleged victim is in danger, his family is in danger, or he is protecting his home. There has been no evidence proferred that the thieves made any move to enter his home. If they did, then I would drop my objections forthwith. But as of yet, there is no reason to believe so.
 
2004-10-22 03:58:09 PM
So far I haven't seen any mention of the last line of the article.

Spokesman Bernie Weisenfeld said prosecutors are considering all their options on where to continue, including presenting the case to a second grand jury.

So this isn't over. The prosecution might present the case to grand jury after grand jury until one returns an indictment.
 
2004-10-22 03:58:22 PM
re: 'who on this forum DOES own a gun '

Yes, several.
No, I would never shoot somebody for stealing my stuff. It's just stuff. I already own too much crappola anyway.

Home invasion however, is a different story.
 
2004-10-22 03:58:48 PM
Prohibition has never worked in this country. Didnt work for booze, hasnt worked for drugs, hasnt worked worked for guns either. Making something illegal does not make it unavailable. simple.
 
2004-10-22 03:59:25 PM
Fantastic_Dan
It's not just the materialistic items, it's the stress, turmoil, the bother, the fear that they cause...

But I agree with you...

Were are immaterial, not material....that's what's important.
 
2004-10-22 03:59:43 PM
buttcat


Okay, who on this forum DOES own a gun and had to use it to protect themselves, family, or property which involved killing so called prep? Until you have been in above situation, STFU and quit the tuff gun guy act... you're not impressing anyone.


Well I almost was. Just so happened that when I pulled the gun, the bastard jumped off the porch and ran away. But, had he stayed, he would have been dead.

Just remember children:
If you shoot, shoot to kill. Not wound. Wounded criminals can sue, and have there own version of the story. Dead ones don't.

Shoot them while they are facing you.
Its easier to claim self defense (which deadly force is authorized for)
 
2004-10-22 04:00:08 PM
mcflizzy-

Not disagreeing with your last post but:

segue- a smooth transition from one subject to another

segway- idiotic two-wheeled personal transport device of the future.

/no flame, just a PSA
 
2004-10-22 04:00:15 PM
What's the point of a grand jury, then?
If the prosecutor gets to keep rolling the dice until they come up seven, why even bother?
 
2004-10-22 04:00:56 PM
jat850

Kid! That's different. Anything a kid is going to steal is already in the garage. I don't think anyone here is that unreasonable although many sound that way.

In your house, no time to think.

In your yard. It's dark. You better know what your shooting at.

One thing that doesn't come across in these forums and the news...is what are the details.

I'm not going to shoot at random. I suspect most people won't. But if truly think my family is in danger. I'm shooting.
 
2004-10-22 04:01:01 PM
If firearms cause crimes and kill people, all of the ones I have must be defective. -Paul Wulf
 
2004-10-22 04:01:23 PM
Death to all theives! Especially the young, the desperate, the impoverished, the elderly, and people that smell like ham - the farkers!
 
cot
2004-10-22 04:01:37 PM
I am a big man, yes I am
and I have a big gun
 
2004-10-22 04:02:10 PM
Webgrunt

Actually all I was really trying to say is that I am not going to assume that all they are after is my property. People here seem to be saying it was only an ATV or it was only a tv but that's not how I look at it. I see it as someone is ony my property committing a crime and unless I have direct evidence to the contrary I am going to assume they are willing to hurt me or my family and take the proper precautions. If I turn on the lights and yell and the perosn runs away i'm not gonna shoot them in the back but if it's dark and I yell and that person takes even one step toward me that's the end of it.
 
2004-10-22 04:02:40 PM
(Rammek88,

So many canadians get their panties into a knot over this un rating system. As if 'better' is ordinal in the wider sense. Yea, I'm a Canadian, and one who is secure enough not to rely on the UN or the US to define myself.)

Awareness is the best form of self defense. Being unaware is like leaving your car running in downtown - you're a charity for sociopaths.

I've been the victim of a few robberies and assaults, and have escaped others. I will escape from bad situations in the future, but I will never be a victim again.

I will fight until I stop moving. It's just the price of doing business. You may win, but you'll have to play.

I'm a gun nut, but I feel safe. I neither own nor carry weapons. I do not automatically hold criminals in contempt. I do believe that human beings have a responsibility to take care of themselves. The police won't be there to help people who need it. They can't do that.

If citizens are clumsy in their self-defense, we should be lenient. The criminal is trained to victimize, but most of us are untrained in defense.
 
2004-10-22 04:02:43 PM
Fantastic_Dan
I've simply learned that some people have very different ideas regarding the value of a human life relative to a manufactured good when I thought it was something we could all agree on. That's all.

A nice vehicle generally takes several months to earn enough money to buy it. The question is, do you think a thief is worth several months of your life?

If the choice is my money or my life, that's easy. My money or your life -- well, you'd better be someone I like. :)
 
2004-10-22 04:02:46 PM
kachoo

Sounds like you exhibit the ability to make reasonable judgments, which I respect, unlike some of the shoot-first-ask-questions-later-no-matter-what posts I've seen so far.
 
2004-10-22 04:03:16 PM
Do the French have a word for 'segue'?
 
2004-10-22 04:04:05 PM
cot

Nine Inch Nails? Woo!
 
2004-10-22 04:04:08 PM
While I don't think I would shoot to kill over an ATV, I assure you that you do not want to break into my home. I wouldn't kill someone unless I felt like I had no other choice, but a .44 magnum to the crotch is surely an effective deterrent.

Every man has the right to defend his home and his family, anti-gun criminal-loving drug-war-supporting crybabies be damned.
 
Ant
2004-10-22 04:04:33 PM
2004-10-22 03:50:32 PM jat850 [TotalFark]

Ant

Are you just making shiat up, or what? Where in that article does it say one of the thieves tried to make a move on him?


Try here
 
2004-10-22 04:05:12 PM
Abso-farking-lutely!\

/locked and loaded
 
2004-10-22 04:05:52 PM
Ant

Thank you for the source. You should probably cite if you're going to refer to something not listed in the original article.
 
2004-10-22 04:06:32 PM
Dvrdwn

AspiringPhilosopher - he did NOT break New Jersey state law. Period

Ah, it's all so clear now! He didn't break the law. Thank you for the enlightened and clear argument of such intellectual rigor that I could do nothing but submit to your genius.

Got any other tidbits of genius for me?
 
2004-10-22 04:06:33 PM
2004-10-22 03:46:27 PM AspiringPhilosopher

depends on whether you are talking about a dwelling or a home. you don't have to retreat from your dwelling. you do have to retreat from your yard (if that's what you mean by home).
 
2004-10-22 04:07:38 PM
Kudos to this guy for having the balls to stand up for his property and his life rather than cowering behind the shield of 'insurance will save me, police will save me, a strong door might save me'.

His taking action means one less criminal to use up my tax dollars in prison, and one less loser to threaten my life and property.

nrhughes: Your advice is the same gutless crap that gets women with abusive husbands/boyfriends/stalkers killed. Sure, call 911 and yell 'stop' while they beat/strangle/stab/shoot the life out of you. Real effective.

Horse
 
2004-10-22 04:07:51 PM
ParrotheadParadise, the slippery slope is that there is now precedent to blow someone away because I thought they were rooting around my shed at night. If you don't see the potential for abuse in that one, you're choosing not to see it.
 
Ant
2004-10-22 04:08:05 PM
2004-10-22 03:57:54 PM AspiringPhilosopher [TotalFark]

And Ant, there was no B&E. There was no theft from the home.


There was a move toward the home by one of the thieves. The shooter didn't know whether the thief had a gun or not and made the decision to shoot. He later tried to treat the suspect's wound
 
2004-10-22 04:09:14 PM
schezar-

How's this for an ethics question?

Say you're alone at night in a city, and an armed man attempts to mug you. Let's say you beat his arse.


Speaking from experience, I continue to beat him (using all available objects) until the cops get there, and consider their response time the hand of instant karma. But then, I have a problem with rage when my safety is threatened. This is why I don't own a gun. If I did, I'd probably be in jail by now.

/not trying to justify, just answering honestly
 
Ant
2004-10-22 04:09:51 PM
2004-10-22 04:05:52 PM jat850 [TotalFark]

Ant

Thank you for the source. You should probably cite if you're going to refer to something not listed in the original article


Someone further up in this thread said they heard more of the story on the radio this morning.
 
2004-10-22 04:09:54 PM
first off my penis is about average
just to get that outta the way

I live in Flint, MI. maybe Michael Moore has introduced you (bowling for columbine was half right half total b.s.)

Monday night my girlfriends car was broken into in front of my house the side window was smashed in, the column was cracked, the trunk was ransacked and left open. why it wasn't stolen i'm not sure, someone may have came by...anyway i moved here as a kid, a kid with idealistic compassion for my fellow man. Now, after 12-13 years of living amongst drunk by noon, jobless, thieves and liars (they stole the aluminum siding off my neighbors house its worth .43cents a pound ya know) i've about had it. i'm jaded and i know it (most folks here are)...I also know if I would have caught the rat thieves in the act i'd be awaiting trial right now.
ok, maybe you could say its just a car, and I see what you're saying, but to me its not about the car its about the guy who wont do what needs to be done to get his own car trying to take mine after i've done the work for it...maybe ya'll don't understand but its not about the thing its about people getting what they've earned.
those thieves could'a' earned a face full of buckshot if I wasn't resting from a hard days work.

/i'm fixing up a house in the country currently, i hope my patience, and virtue return after i move. you'll find me pickin' flowers in the sun.....ahhhhhh
 
2004-10-22 04:09:56 PM
""2004-10-22 03:57:36 PM Weaps


Wizzywig they are? Well, you can't own an AR-15, hollowpoint ammunition, get a concealed gun permit, there's a waiting period, and more. Compared to the rest of the US (especially PA) NJ's gun laws are very strict. Almost as bad a California's.

Of course criminals don't follow laws.
""

Yeah they stupidly outlaw assault weapons, but that is outside the issue. People do not use assault weapons to kill people in the VAST majority of cases. In fact, over 97% of shooitngs in this country that involve one person shooting another solely involve the use of a handguns. That is not a stat I pulled out of my ass.

Lack of handgun registration in New Jersey is REATARDED, but what can ya do?

I love Arizona personally. I carried an AR-15 and my friend had his SKS and we walked right past city hall and the cops just said hello to us. This will sound redneckish, but that is why I love this country.
 
Kiz
2004-10-22 04:10:00 PM
browser

ParrotheadParadise, the slippery slope is that there is now precedent to blow someone away because I thought they were rooting around my shed at night. If you don't see the potential for abuse in that one, you're choosing not to see it.


Heck, in several states that's legal now.
 
2004-10-22 04:10:02 PM
Doctors practice law. Lawers practice medicine. Man with gun, practice on moving target.

I'm practic'n typing. Not so good. Need catsup...
 
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