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(The mad music bandit)   MP3 is dead. Long live OGG.   (ogg-vorbis.com) divider line 109
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11276 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Feb 2002 at 5:50 PM (12 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2002-02-11 05:57:27 PM
"It's a trick! Get an axe!" -- Ash from Army of Darkness
 
2002-02-11 05:57:47 PM
Ogg bites it. Has it even reached v1.0 yet?
 
2002-02-11 05:58:46 PM
"Though not as popular as an MP3 file yet, Ogg Vorbis will eventually replace the MP3 format by popular demand"

...uh, yeah, right.
 
2002-02-11 05:59:38 PM
 
2002-02-11 06:00:38 PM
Brains...
 
2002-02-11 06:01:35 PM
Im deleting all my mp3s right now.. once I finish cleaning my beta, and divx players
 
2002-02-11 06:01:44 PM
Mp3 will never be destroyed! Mwahahahahaha!
 
2002-02-11 06:01:50 PM
I distrust.
 
2002-02-11 06:02:38 PM
It is at 1.0rc3 (release candidate 3).

Why do you say it bites? Every single double-blind listening test I've seen agrees that it sounds much better than mp3 and at lower bitrates, too.

It's ESPECIALLY obvious at lower (streaming) bitrates, where mp3 really sucks and is getting it's ass kicked by newer codecs like ogg and wma. I really can't hear the different at higher bitrates because my hearing sucks, but I've yet to see anyone say that mp3 sounds better than ogg in an unbiased listening test.
 
2002-02-11 06:03:21 PM
Does anyone use these? What kind of filesize/quality numbers are we talking about? It isn't really going to take over as the filesharing format is it? This really pisses me off cause I spent $100 on a Rio 500, and it ain't gonna play no OGGs. :(
 
2002-02-11 06:04:12 PM
Seriously, these guys have major hubris. People will ignore them, just because these guys are like, "We're the best! What you have is for losers!"
 
2002-02-11 06:04:24 PM
Will it beomce more popular or not? That has yet to be seen. People can be really set in their ways sometimes. Since it's NullSoft releasing it, it will make for an easy switchover if WinAmp plays both formats.
 
2002-02-11 06:06:50 PM
Why is this news? That article from Dvorak was a year and a half old. Ogg is gonna be stomped out of existence b4 it gets off the ground. MS will see to that.
 
2002-02-11 06:09:28 PM
Wow... looks like "Forbes" has some good things to say about Og.... :P

Is there any doubt this is most likely a Big Business ploy to get you to change to a format more amenable to "Digital Rights Management?"
 
2002-02-11 06:09:40 PM
Havent you folks ever heard of shorten (.shn)?

Mmmm...shn's......

etree.org, gdlive.com, grateful.org

--Dave
 
2002-02-11 06:11:32 PM
OGG is good.
I use and prefer OGG.
 
2002-02-11 06:11:48 PM
Just a little tad of info for the curious:

Ogg is open sourced.
 
2002-02-11 06:11:49 PM
Abyssal: That's not fair. That site (ogg-vorbis.com) is not run by the developers and they can't control its content. The official site is vorbis.com, and I think you'll find significantly less bragging.

Here's a document being worked on to go on the official vorbis site (when it's ready). You'll notice it's fairly even-handed, and while it's down on mp3, that's mainly because mp3 sucks (comparitively), and then mention several other codecs that are better, not just ogg:
http://cs.leander.isd.tenet.edu/~mitchell/vorbis_intro.html

Furthermore, this is old news, since Nullsoft first released their Vorbis plugin two months ago. Oh well.
 
2002-02-11 06:12:07 PM
FarkRavingMad has a point. I heard of this encoding awhile ago and nothing more of it yet. Beta had better quality than VHS but look who won anyways.
 
2002-02-11 06:12:17 PM
ogg bites, i just downloaded some songs, and it is just some lame excuse for a codec, its bitrates aren't even friggin constant
 
2002-02-11 06:14:00 PM
OGG is a really sweet *free* format. contrary to popular belief, mp3 is *not* free, and requires licensing. Why i remember wayyy back in '98 at a mp3 conference when the Fraunhauffer guys got laughed off the stage for asking for a dollar for every mp3 made with their codec. (in response to the laughable hubris comment above)

OGG sounds great, has low bitrates, and is n-channel, as in surrouNd sound, or multiple audio tracks/bitrates/whatever on a single stream. OGG also supports bitrate scaling (not there yet), which will be real hot shiat for streaming applications. Unlike Real which simply encodes the stream at 2 or 3 bitrates, then flips between them depending on player bandwidth.

It also supports a much wider frequency spectrum, which is why I started using it. The frequency response for mp3 is something like 40hz-18khz, which cuts out a lot of the bass energy in an audio signal. The stuff above 18khz, we males can't hear all that well anyhow ;)

ogg -- use it, love it.
 
2002-02-11 06:14:38 PM
Windows is dead. Long live Linux.
 
2002-02-11 06:16:37 PM
Vexhex But that's because Beta was never lowering its prices, and not staying competative. Either that or incapable of lowering prices and still turning a profit
 
2002-02-11 06:17:10 PM
Ryuuseki You really should close your mouth, you're collecting feet.
 
2002-02-11 06:18:13 PM
Isn't Ogg General Zod's brother ?
And don't forget what Ogg spelled backwards is !
 
2002-02-11 06:18:15 PM
Shuh: Just the opposite. This technology is open source, and its creators are opposed to Digital Rights Management. In fact, the whole reason they created it was because mp3 is NOT free (you technically have to pay royalties on all encoders, due to patent issues, and they could at some point force people to pay royalties on decoders if they wanted, too... remember the Unisys/.gif fiasco?). So they created a free codec in the hopes that it will take over and we will be free from DRM and patent issues.

Ryuuseki: It's bitrates are constant because constant bitrates ARE DUMB. Aside from streaming, there is no reason why you would ever want to use constant bitrates. As long as you are using a decent encoder, if you show me a CBR-encoded mp3, I can show you a better sounding VBR file that is the same size or smaller. Think about it logically: what advantage could CBR possibly have over VBR?

The main reason people (mistakenly) think that VBR sucks is because Xiph invented the VBR format, and their encoder is CONSISTENTLY rated the worst encoder on the market. Good encoders like LAME, etc will sound better with VBR.

Furthermore, Ogg lets you do CBR, it's just heavily discouraged since it's a bad idea unless you're streaming.
 
2002-02-11 06:19:08 PM
It won't take off until portable players have it, and the main issue OGG has that there is no free($) fixed point decoders for it, and most manufacturers won't pay the license fee for it due to the fact that it's not very popular. Catch-22 problem. I'll have to stick to MP3 format until my empeg player supports OGG.
 
oyr
2002-02-11 06:19:35 PM
Victoly, too true.

Can't mp3 and ogg just get along?
 
2002-02-11 06:21:55 PM
shuh: actually since OGG is open-source DRM will not be an issue with it. WMA has all the DMA that you are worried about, and more.

While OGG does sound better at lower bitrates (96k OGG files sound about the same as the normal 128k mp3 files), it remains to be seen if hardware support comes along. So far I believe that Kenwood has a car player and that is it.
 
2002-02-11 06:22:59 PM
well, they obviously weren't concerned with marketability when they came up with the name. i suspect some name changes will have to occur before ogg vorbis can be really successful.

i mean, really...just say them out loud and see which sounds more fun: "ogg vorbis" or "empeethree"?
 
2002-02-11 06:23:31 PM
Long live El Hombre!!!!

 
2002-02-11 06:23:50 PM
BAKup: It's only a matter of time. There are several people working on fixed-point decoders (check the vorbis-dev archives for more info) so hopefully there will be some portable player support soon. We'll see.
 
2002-02-11 06:24:09 PM
P-lump: thanks for clearing that up, that really does make it a lot more desirable. However, there's still a major stumbling block for it's progress, and no, it's not brains (how I wish it were, though!). Basically, many people, myself included, have lots of .mp3s. I personally have a gigabyte or so. It would be pretty hard to convert them all into .oggs. And don't retort that it isn't, bevause my computer sucks. It takes all day to defrag my hard drive, and this thing isn't too large.
 
2002-02-11 06:27:31 PM
Ogg Vorbis a great name for your next child....
 
2002-02-11 06:29:18 PM
Abyssal: No, I understand, and furthermore you should not convert them to oggs, even if you had a fast computer. MP3s and oggs both introduce artifacts into the sound (different ones though) and if you try to convert between the two, you are asking ogg to try to encode all of the mp3 artifacts, and then it will add its own artifacts on top of that.

In other words converting between formats (either way) means you will ALWAYS end up with lower-quality files. So don't ever do that! :)
 
2002-02-11 06:29:30 PM
BAkup: I believe mp3 took off well before the portable players were created.

But I have noticed mp3s not having as good of range in the bass category, if OGG can handle lower frequencies, than I am happy.

Does anyone know the file size differences? Does that mean Flash needs to forget mp3 and start encoding to OGG? That would bring down the price of the program. My ex-company ditched trying to encode mp3's because of that licensing issue. They wanted a certain amount per box sold.
 
2002-02-11 06:29:33 PM
Squid: If you already have MP3s, you wouldn't want to convert them to OGG unless you have the source material (i.e., the original CD). Compression, decompression, and recompression will make the resulting second generation copy sound like ass.

As for your defrag, Windows defrag blows. Norton Utilities is worth the $50 or whatever to get your drive defragged in a fifth of the time.
 
2002-02-11 06:31:46 PM
Harveyfish: As far as I know, that Kenwood player announced that they would (eventually) be supporting oggs, but I don't think it does currently.

I do not believe there are currently any portable ogg players on the market, unfortunately, though there are a few who have announced forthcoming support in the next few months.
 
2002-02-11 06:32:05 PM
"But I have noticed mp3s not having as good of range in the bass category, if OGG can handle lower frequencies, than I am happy."

Huh. I've always noted the greatest distortion in the treble range (i.e. high hats, cymbals, etc.).
 
2002-02-11 06:34:08 PM
"Windows is dead. Long live Linux."

Linux blows on the desktop. You know it. I know it. Make it easier for the typical user to install and configure. Until then, stick to servers and one-application computers.
 
2002-02-11 06:34:49 PM
P-lump & Victoly: yeah, I figured. I knew I had a second point as to why I couldn't convert, and that was it. You see, I have lots of really obscure stuff, which I doubt I could get in .ogg.
 
2002-02-11 06:35:54 PM
Also, I'll switch to Linux when it runs DOS games. Until then, I'm sticking with Windows98.
 
2002-02-11 06:36:40 PM
<naughty by nature>

You down with OGG?
Yeah you know me.

</naughty by nature>
 
2002-02-11 06:41:30 PM
OGG is to MP3 as PNG is to GIF

simple as that

Look at how popular the so-called "DivX" codec is. Little more than a hack on MS-MPEG4, yet it's spread like wildfire. That's how willing people are to go with something new, as long as it's free, works well, and is better than the competition. OGG has all of that.

And FYI, "Ogg Vorbis" is the name of a character from one of Terry Pratchett's DiscWorld novels.
 
2002-02-11 06:43:05 PM
I found that website about three years ago, long before fileshareing became so popular. The text on HAS NOT changes, although the background has. I thought that ogg was not going to be a success then and I forgot all about it until now,
 
2002-02-11 06:45:41 PM
OGG is the federal code for the main airport on Maui.

Guess I know where he takes his vacations...
 
2002-02-11 06:46:11 PM
Henchman Encode at higher rates. I encode at 300 and sounds nice to me. Hell, I have an old 80's tube amp just to get thw warm distortion.

Also, what is wrong with constant bitrates. It take up more drive space maybe but come on, 40gig Drive < $100. No big deal. I have over 6000 mp3 files, and I can tell the differance between variable and not, but only at low rates. At high rates they sound the same. So it is not like Constant bit rate are a bad thing.

Need I say, if the bit rate is constant, than the terr.... of fark it.
 
2002-02-11 06:47:26 PM
Zylon: Sorry to nitpick; Ogg and Vorbis are actually the names of two different characters.
 
2002-02-11 06:47:36 PM
Visualingo: Ogg uses a sliding "quality" scale from 0 to 10 (including non-integers, so you could use 5.5 for example).

By default it uses a quality of 3, which seems to generate ~115kbps files in the CDs I've encoded (a few hundred). The general consensus is that these sound better than 128kbps mp3s, though my hearing is pretty bad and I honestly can't hear the difference between 128kbps mp3s, quality 3 oggs, and the original CDs, so YMMV.
 
2002-02-11 06:51:47 PM
OGG won't be taking the place of MP3 anytime soon. Not while major players like Sony and others are still making MP3 players for your home, car and portables. They are not going to ditch them just because a new codec comes out.
 
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