That's what all these cripples down at the VA talk about: Jesus this and Jesus that. They even had a priest come and talk to me. He said God is listening and if I found Jesus, I'd get to walk beside him in the kingdom of Heaven. Did you hear what I said? WALK beside him in the kingdom of Heaven! Well kiss my crippled ass. God is listening? What a crock of shiat.

being in denial that you're a piece of crap just like the rest of humanity is teh funny.

losers.

Yeah, there's something wrong with internet porn! Too many bad boob jobs, not enough shots of the cookie, and precious few *good* boobies links on fark lately!

I'm really not surprised.

Dated a guy who was 'called by god to be a pastor'

he then proceeded to rape me.

came out later that he was also addicted - very badly- to porn. the more hardcore the better.

haven't been to church since!

as a long time lurker, who didnt rtfc (read the farking coments) this finally made me post. as a kid, 14 or 15, my southern baptist youth director had all of the youth group sign up to go play broom hockey at 1 A.M. well, our parents dropped us off at 11 p.m. so for the next 2 hours, we were told to sign the 'promise card' saying we wouldnt have sex till we were married. right. well, us young boys, who where separated from the girls, signed it so we could go have fun. (needless to sat, when a girl took my clothes off at the age of 16, the last thing that entered my mind was my 'promise card'. biology folks.) on the way, i saw the space shuttle re enter the atmosphere. epiphany. as much as church wants to control your behavior, these farkers were in space, something church never believed, i.e. the world is flat. needless to say, church is good for the soul, bad for the brain

fundy christians scare me. scares me even more the our prez's base is those same. vote nov 2nd.

1) I'm not a christian.

2) I think you guys who seem to hate christians in general are idiots.

There's good and bad in every group. Promise keepers in general is a good group who helps a lot of people. A lot of people have problems with porn, just because they admit to seeing it in the last week doesnt mean *%!#.

Stfu. k, thx.

Ahh, the glory of "gender roles" people feel that they or others need to adhere to.

Here's some news.
The only gender role someone needs to follow is the one they *want* to follow. There's nothign wrong with men or women being masculine or feminine, being leaders or not, making more money or not. Any farking crap the Bible says about Adam being made first is utterly irrelevant. Why? Because let's face it, those gender stereotypes don't even face up to the reality of our culture, much less of other cultures the world over.

Does this sound like I've gotten the Promise Keeper's message correctly?

Apparently, many men do not know wrong from right.

They need someone else to tell them exactly what is right.

But for some unexplained reason they can count on some other man to tell them what is right - even though we know that many men do not know wrong from right.

Right, I got it!


Now, regarding intolerance.

Let me state this clearly.

I support intolerance in several specific cases.

I am intolerant towards bigots of any size, shape or persuasion. I loathe them and look forward to they day when they become extinct. There is no place on this earth for them and their hatred is directly responsible for 99% of the problems we face in this lifetime.

I am intolerant of people who feel they are superior based on their interpretation of what is right or wrong. If you believe something is right, fine - exercise that in your daily life and keep your condemnation of people who don't share your views to yourself.

I am intolerant of anyone who will not allow or does not allow everyone on this earth to pursue their own path to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - as long as it doesn't impact anyone else.

And yes, I am aware that the above sounds contradictory.


One final thought - As quietly mentioned in the cartoon posted earlier, this diatribe against porn is too similar to what Osama Bin Laden is screaming about. If these fundamentalists are in complete agreement with Osama Bin Laden and President Bush has clearly stated that people are either with us or against us, does this mean that the Promise Keepers are siding with the terrorists?

If so, exactly how big is the holding facility at Guantanamo Bay?

Very very late correction for batkc - The Song of Solomon is a great book, I used to read it during sermons as a kid. But there's nothing in there about the young couple being married...

Ahaha, silly Christians. They are so afraid of sex, it's amazing to me they are even able to reproduce.

If these guys' lives are such that the #1 problem they have to face is Too Much Porn, I'd say they're doing better than I am.

Personally, I think it's possible for porn to be a destructive influence in one's life, just like anything else pleasurable. It's all about moderation. When my wife and I involve porn in our sex lives, the results are fantastic. Your results may vary.

I think that, rather than condemning it outright, the wives of the PKs ought to try to see the issue from the other side and understand that it's not all bad...

When you consider a picture of a woman in a bikini to be pornography, the only surprise is that the percentage isn't higher.

/No story here folks. Lets just keep moving along.

You might argue that few groups' religious/political ideals in themselves are homophobic, sexist, xenophobic, racist, etc (obviously with the exception of groups like neo-Nazis and the KKK). Even communism looks generally nice if you just read about it. That PK list looks nice on paper, at least if you believe in the ol' JC.

However, people being people will distort any philosophy or ideal to suit their own purposes and maintain power, which is why people always take a good thing too far, no matter what the ideology. Communism doesn't work because people won't work to serve the needs of the many and too many keep too much.

Men relegating women to the kitchen and being afraid of people with different sexual preferences is just about power, pure and simple. It's not about 'valuing' anything except your own damn self.

http://www.xxxchurch.com

Yes, it's real.

Yes, it's legit.

Yes, it's awesome.

The aforementioned website will also give you a better glimpse of understanding in the mindset of Christians regarding sexuality, and pornography. The group attends porn conventions, not to pass judgement and condemn people, but to merely to let them know that God even loves porn stars. XXXChurch even joined up with a porn director and made a commercial to combat child pornography... and, it's pretty damn funny.

However, regarding the issue of PK and porn and struggles:

All of you who are opposed to religion and the promise keepers are hypocritical. Because the PK has a Christian affluence, you are automatically turned off by it, give skewed opinions based on what you heard, instead of what you know.

If this were any other group, you would be like "eh, live and let live!"

The PK are decent men merely attempting to create a healthy household for their wives and children.

To them, porn is bad. Why? Well, let's play the game of logic.

To the PK, he is asked that he absoluely adore his wife in every possible form. If this absolute love includes looking the other way when a hot sweaty jogger bounce down the road, or deciding to not look at porn on the web, then who is he hurting? No one. In fact, it's noble because he attempts to choose to only view his wive in a sexual manner, thus honoring her and their shared marriage bed. This would obviously keep his wife happy as she would know that she was his sole means of desire.

However, because he is a Christian and understands that human depravity (face it, we all often do things we know better than to do) he will struggle with the choices he makes. Even if that chose is to not view temptation, chances are he'll screw up down the line and look at it. Does this make him a hypocrite? Possibly. However, why should we not look at the situation with the lense of compassion and understand that the man is merely trying to live a life above the standard out of love for his family? The Christian idea that the media often portrays is the fundamentalist judgemental person, who, yes is a hypocrite. Biblical Christianity is merely a theological concept of forgiveness that can be extended everyone, even hypocrites who hate porn, yet still look at it.

/awaits flames.

Rageofangels,

That sounds swell. The problem is that they love to remind themselves that they (the men) are 'the final word' -- the captain of the ship. While I agree that this is not limited to PK, the singing and swaying about how the man is the head of the household really, really, turns me off.

rageofangels, someone deciding not to look at porn isn't really hurting anyone.

However, the attitude that viewing porn is a horrible thing, the resulting guilt, et ceter *is* hurting people. And it's influencing society in negative ways, too.

Seeing the headline reminded me of the song What If I Stumble by D.C. Talk from their Jesus Freak CD (the first paragraph is spoken before the music starts)


"The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today
Is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips
Then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle.
That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable"

Is this one for the people? Is this one for the Lord?
Or do I simply serenade for things I must afford?
You can jumble them together, my conflict still remains
Holiness is calling, in the midst of courting fame
Cause I see the trust in their eyes
Though the sky is falling
They need Your love in their lives
Compromise is calling

What if I stumble, what if I fall?
What if I lose my step and I make fools of us all?
Will the love continue when my walk becomes a crawl?
What if I stumble, and what if I fall?

What if I stumble, what if I fall?
You never turn in the heat of it all
What if I stumble, what if I fall?

Father please forgive me for I can not compose
The fear that lives within me
Or the rate at which it grows
If struggle has a purpose on the narrow road you've carved
Why do I dread my trespasses will leave a deadly scar
Do they see the fear in my eyes? Are they so revealing?
This time I cannot disguise all the doubt I'm feeling


What if I stumble, what if I fall?
What if I lose my step and I make fools of us all?
Will the love continue when my walk becomes a crawl?
What if I stumble, and what if I fall?

What if I stumble?
Everyone's got to crawl when you know that
You're up against a wall, it's about to fall
Everyone's got to crawl when you know that

I hear You whispering my name [You say]
"My love for You will never change" [never change]

What if I stumble, what if I fall?
What if I lose my step and I make fools of us all?
Will the love continue when my walk becomes a crawl?
What if I stumble, and what if I fall?

What if I stumble, what if I fall?
You never turn in the heat of it all
What if I stumble, what if I fall?
You are my comfort, and my God

Is this one for the people, is this one for the Lord?

Brother in law is one of these freaks. He has the most joyless marriage on the planet. We were playing golf one day and the beer girl (who was DEFINITELY a cutie) came by. He said he wanted her to eat his ace-hole. PK suck. Fascists one and all. Any woman who supports them is trash.

I went to PK once (just like I went to one NASCAR race--I don't believe in poo-pooing anything unless I've given it a try).

The whole time they're saying, "Be a better husband", I'm thinking, then why am I here, surrounded by men, when I should be at home...with my wife?

Might work for some, I guess, to snap them out of making their wives golf-widows or work-widows...I dunno.

As for hypocrisy? Nothing new here, move along.

Joke time:
"What's the difference between Baptists and Methodists?

Baptists won't talk to you in the liquor store."

Janusdog,

To the outsider, one can see how being the "head" of a household can sound chavaunistic. In reality, and especially in hindsight, it is quite the opposite. Paul, who authored the section of the Bible in question, wrote that the men should step up as being the head of the household. The reason is unknown but proper scholastic interpretation could read this as Men, get a job, and support your family as some of you have basically become lazy asses and you aren't supported your family.

Like it or not, the men were the bread winners of the household at the time. Some who claimed to believe in the resurrection of Jesus and the promise that he would return to the people, quit their jobs. Why? They thought they could just wait it out and do nothing. Obviously, this is a problem as Paul also addresses that if the men quit their jobs they can't take care of their families.


People always quote the portion of the Bible (1 Peter) where the woman should be submissive to the husband. They ignore the following verse where the husband is commanded to do this, "You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered."

In the times, to treat a woman like property was expected. Paul comes along and demands that (Christian) men go many steps further and treat their wives with honor.

To, again, address the issue of head of the household... it literally means to be one who leads. If you contextualize this verse with what is asked that Men do in 1 Peter 3:7 it literally means to serve your wife. As often being a leader is serving the needs of those surrounding you.

Other verses include the whole section on love of wives and husbands in Ephesians 5.

Galations 5:25-28 "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy,... In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies."

(I x'd out irrelevant parts for the sake of discussion)

To love your wife as much as you love yourself is a pretty bold thing to do, even by todays standards. Its a symbiant circle of leading, service, and love.

Ten Ninjas

To twist what Eleanor Roosevelt said slightly...

No one can make you feel guilty without your consent. Guilt isn't assigned, its accepted by the person who did the wrong and then has the conscience to deal with it.

PK isn't making anyone feel guilty, they are teaching people how to deal with issues that make them feel guilty. Those issues can be from viewing pornography or neglecting the time spent with the kids.

Roland_of_Gilead
>Maybe if they'd be willing to experiment a little bit instead of "stick it in me, do your thing, and get off" guys wouldn't be so likely to pleasure themselves(who am I kidding?). <

Wow. That sucks man, I hope you can do something about this, that's no way to live. This is one of the (many) reasons I am not religious. To much sex "in" the church, not enough at home.

They need to relax, sex is natural, fighting it just causes more problems.

TWX:

That's great that you are able to get something out of Sagan, but good ol' Carl's view of the world, the Spartans, Greeks, and Romans shouldn't have existed, since their liberal views on sex should have dilluted their lust for and ability to prepare for war. Hell, the best army in the existance of mankind was *cue Archie Bunker voice* a bunch of froot loops. */Archie*

The unfortuante thing here on Fark and with many religion-bashers (let's be honest and call them Christian bashers) in general is that they talk about how open and understanding and loving they are bout then want to tell others how to live. A good Christian will NEVER tell you how to live, he will tell you what he believes and that if you choose not to have certain beliefs, you may pay for that lack of faith with an enternity in Hell. It's no different than someone trying to sell you Coke over Pepsi, but the conquences are vastly different.

You know, that whole "real men love jesus" thing sounds so...Gay.

But then I hear Jesus was a homo anyway.

I think I'm going to add pornography to my list of things that would make this world a better place.

Eh.

My stepdad has done the PK thing. Both my parents are pretty much fundies. I would say that the dynamic of their marriage works pretty well. My mom has always been a housewife, even before she was Christian. She works part-time now cause the kids are out of the house. She's certainly not quiet and meek. I don't think PK has hurt my stepdad at all... Then again, they're already fundies. Even as a female, promise keepers don't really bother me. They do their thing. I do mine. They have their values. I have mine. Everybody manages to live on the same planet just fine. Most of the time.

In the words of Jane's Addiction... "no one's leaving"

If someone wants to be a PK, that's his right to do so.

It's also my right to look at porn if I want to. My right to do that is protected by law. The idea that a bunch of bible thumpers want to inpinge upon what I do in the privacy of my home, to me, is offensive. It's also not very Christian...if you will notice, there are passages in the bible which say to "live and let live" and "turn the other cheek".

My main problem with "uber-Christians" like these guys is that they can never seem to be able to just live their lives and keep to themselves. They always want to inflict their values and morals on the society as a whole. They always want to try and change the world to fit their little "sanitized for your protection" mold without taking into consideration that there are people in the same world who think the PK's and other groups like it are full of shiat. Why should someone who is not a member of this group have to live by their rules?

I also take issue with the notion that looking at other women is somehow cheating on my wife. Again, I call bullshiat. My wife is a busy woman, she works hard, takes care of our daughter and doesn't always have the time or strength to "meet my needs" so I look at some porn and take care of it myself. She's fine with it, so to me there's no prob!

This seems to be a recurring trend lately; Citizen X has a moment of "devine revelation"..they see the light, or whatever. However, these people seem to have this irritating inability to keep it to themselves. They feel compelled to want to share their newfound clarity with everyone they come in contact with, regardless of whether or not anyone else wants to hear it! Then they start to think that the entire world needs to do things the way they think, so they run for a public office, and then they start introducing all sorts of "morality based legislation" that they intend to inflict on everyone, even those who do not go to their church! To me, this is bullshiat!

If you have a problem with internet porn, the solution is simple. Don't look at it! It's not that difficult to avoid internet porn sites.

If you have to rely on a book to keep you from being an asshole, fine...I don't need the book, and I resent being force fed what is in the book because some twit thinks I should.

It kills me that these people like to think they are speaking for God. Until the Real God weighs in on the subject, I think these people need to sit down and shut up...just like their docile wives!

If I want to learn how to be a better husband/father, I'll ask my wife.

* asks wifey *

she says I'm doing just fine, although she's tired of the old VHS porn - we need some of that new DVD stuff.

Some of my relevant opinions:

Religion's conflict with porn (and sex in general) is due to having never accepted the theory of evolution and its corollaries, as well as failing to update the holy book(s) to reflect the issues of the times (which they were originally written to address).

People like sex (and more generally, orgasm) because it perpetuates the species and spreads genes.

The rapid pace of technology and the ensuing changes in society have made it a trivial matter to obtain sexual stimuli and gratification.

Sex, like anything else worthwhile, is good (when exercised with enthusiasm for the positives, and respect and caution for the negatives).

(I have more, but your web browser has only so much RAM available.)

susan faludi has an interesting discussion of promise keepers in her book "stiffed: the betrayal of the american man".

SixOfDLoC

Try reading something other than the old testament sometimes.

But thats where the best sex and violence are in the series, the sequel was all about peace and love. Don't get me wrong the character development in the second book was great, but i found the Jesus character slowed down the action too much.

Sad really, if they'd have kept up the fire and brimstone I bet it could've been a trilogy

/obvious

Bill McCartney can rot. He is typical of this group...all talk, then when you really look at their lives, they dont cut the mustard.

5th down...say no more. The bastard cheated his way to a national championship. Many folks in Missouri havent forgotten.

And while you cant fault the parents for the children in all cases, McCartney's daughter was having "fun" with half the CU football team, while he was coach! Remember the whole Sal Annesy (sp?) thing? The story where the running back died right before his senior year? Seems ol Sal and McCartney's daughter had a child together.

Yeah, that guy's a great example for all of us. He might as well become a bishop in the Catholic Church.

What conservative types (Republicans) dont realize is that, for instance, it doesnt matter whether you served in the military...Clinton didnt serve, big farking deal. He was very straightforward about it. Its when people LIE about what theyve done, like Bush. Its not that he was in the National Guard necessarily...its that he has the holier than thou attitude about it all.

Foul foul foul.

Digitalstrange,

> Sad really, if they'd have kept up the fire and brimstone I bet it could've been a trilogy.

Awesome.

I will shamelessly steal your joke for use in a future Sunday School or Choir Practice...

...and will not give you credit, but I will pray for forgiveness.

Thanks.

/My church rocks.

Hey Batkc-

"I think it's funny that you all don't want anyone telling you how to live your life but you're perfectly willing to tell another person that he's being an asshat with his own life. Nice bit of hypocricy..."

Since everyone's being so nice here tonight, let me give it to you straight. I, and every other atheist or agnostic, could give a flying fark what you do with your omnipotent invisible friends. You are a source of amusement. We don't want you to stop, we just want to laugh at you.

I used to work with a guy who was a "Promise Keeper". The guy was on his 5th marriage and had suddenly left his previous job as a principal of a Christian high school for "undisclosed" reasons. And all of the women I worked with and my wife complained that he would stare at their breasts all the time.

Okay, Libs, lemme get this right:

1. Promise Keepers == bad, they objectify women and keep them servile?

2. Porn == good.

Is there ANYTHING that degrades women more than porn? I for one don't like to see women abused so that horny men can masturbate and get themselves off. Yeah, nice way to treat women.

I'm not condoning PK's btw, they DO suck. but i'm not endorsing porn either.

Note to idiots: Christians are people who believe in a set of moral guidelines that they work to keep but often fail because we are all fallible.

A 'bad' Christian is one who does whatever the fark he pr she wants behind closed doors and then badmouths those who do the same thing.

A 'good' Christian is someone who quietly tries not to do those things, if he or she fails deals with it.

Not every Christian is a televangelist. In fact there's a couple that are actually really nice people who follow what the Bible teaches, you know, caring for your fellow man, volunteering to help the sick and needy, loving God and each other and not judging.

DarkAvised

Okay, Libs, lemme get this right:

1. Promise Keepers == bad, they objectify women and keep them servile?

2. Porn == good.

Is there ANYTHING that degrades women more than porn? I for one don't like to see women abused so that horny men can masturbate and get themselves off. Yeah, nice way to treat women.
_____________

Here it is...the tired old "porn degrades women" schpiel..

Give it a rest, Andrea (Dworkin)....

If porn degrades women, then why do so many women..

a) willingly participate
b) profit from it
c) make lucrative careers from it
d) not participate but enjoy watching it!

Nina Hartley once told me that for every girl that does porn, there's ten that want to but don't make the cut. Plus, every woman who ever did it cashed the check.

Your statement is as medieval as the PK's doctrines...welcome to the 21st century!

I don't follow rules. I have a relationship with God. Sometimes I stray from that relationship, sometimes I don't. Christians who follow rules are not Christians. We should just be "Christ-like."

2004-09-18 10:38:09 AM emo999
I don't follow rules. I have a relationship with God.

Is that a biblical relationship?

And my point is, why does one need an organization to remind them to do right by others, be it their wives, their children, the fellow members of their communities, or total strangers?

The kind of people that don't really intend to do it in the first place.

Faith-based rally-holding religious organizations (like PK, but certainly not limited to it) are for those who want to put on airs and pretend that they are good people.

Ever heard of the economic term CONSPICUOUS CONSUMPTION? It's where people buy things for the reason of showing them off to others.

Organized religious rallies are CONSPICUOUS WORSHIP. If these guys really wanted to be the things they want to be, they wouldn't need 20,000 other people around to watch them do so. However, they don't intend to actually do those things, they intend for people to THINK THEY DO SO.

Seriously, if you need a religious organization to tell you how to be a good man/woman, then you probably weren't a good man/woman in the first place.

How about this simple concept that people cant seem to grasp:

If you like porn, watch it and do whatever you want and STFU.
If you don't like porn, don't watch it, don't preach about how evil it is, and STFU.

CONSPICUOUS WORSHIP

Must be the religionist's version of conspicuous patriotism, in which love of your country becomes a dick-size war.

.

DistendedPendulusFrenulum
Must be the religionist's version of conspicuous patriotism, in which love of your country becomes a dick-size war.

____________________

Conspicuous Patriotism...yea, that's a good one...

/wondering where all the flags were on September 10th, 2001

Yup. My last boss was one of these guys. I inherited his computer as soon as I started work there and the first thing I did was take a screencap of his Temporary Internet Items folder.

High-larious.