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(Little Green Footballs)   Superscript "th" not found on 1972 typewriters and other type errors may indicate Bush Guard records are forgeries   ( divider line
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49589 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Sep 2004 at 11:50 AM (12 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»

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2004-09-09 01:00:47 PM  
In the documentary Fahrenheit 9/11, Michael Moore plays the video clip of Mr. Bush sitting in that classroom on the morning of September 11th. After being told about the 2nd plane hitting the World Trade Center, Mr. Bush continues to sit in the classroom and read The Pet Goat (he probably just looked at the pictures) for 7 minutes. Michael Moore emphasizes the point that Mr. Bush just sat there and did absolutely nothing. The right wings response is basically, We were under attack, and we would have all froze for 7 minutes. Which is probably true for Joe Average American, not for the President of the United States. Months before the attacks the security briefing was there, so the idea of this type of an attack hopefully had to be in the back of Mr. Bushs mind. Another disturbing part about the Presidents lack of a response that morning was, he already knew one plane had already hit the World Trade center. Granted, Bush could have thought it was just a horrible accident albeit a little suspicious. Did anyone get that memo about Bin Laden in the summer of 2001? Oh, thats right none of us are President! Once Bush heard about the second plane, he should have jumped up and politely told the children, Sorry kids I have to go do some Presidential things, but I promise I will invite you all to the White House real soon. Thats all. 7 minutes isnt a long time but they were the longest 7 minutes in our history. Those precious minutes might have saved the lives of the people working at the Pentagon. Its just sad that when someone criticizes Bush, the conservatives are quick to compare his actions to the same quick thinking Joe Average Americans like us. But we all know that it takes quick thinking and someone special to be President. And when I say special I dont mean mentally challenged.
2004-09-09 01:00:49 PM  
I'll join you voxriot
2004-09-09 01:01:39 PM  

damn the kerry camaign is getting good at this...
2004-09-09 01:03:35 PM  
2004-09-09 12:59:40 PM Skleenar
Just because typewriters existed that could create these documents does not really address the issue of why one would be used by a state national guard, or that personal memos would be typed with the care to superscript letters and perform the other format niceties that these memos seem to have.

Umm, at that time, in you worked in an office environment, you pretty much used an IBM selectric. They dominated the business market for typwriters for many, many years. Even the podunkiest little insurance or doctor's offices used them. it's no surprise the military had them.

And military folks, in the experience I've had with my family, tend to be more anal than most, especialyl when writing formal documents (formal letters, etc).
2004-09-09 01:04:53 PM  
Until then, do as I tell my Marines to do when they bother me with asinine facts/comments or general stupidity: GO AWAY.

my implication was that biatching about why links are posted on fark is about as stupid as marines who don't eat pickles because they can't stick their heads in the jars, as we used to say in the AF.
2004-09-09 01:05:08 PM  
2004-09-09 12:46:45 PM millen
as a canadian

As a Canadian, you're opinion on this matter is irrelevant.
2004-09-09 01:05:26 PM  
CBS claims it obtained the docs from the "personal file" of Bush's former CO, not the White House.

Powerline has more here:

First rule of forgery...the devil is in the details. Typing up a "20 Year Old" doc in Word, backdating it, forging a sig, and then running it through a photocopier 15 times to make it look authentic is a good way to get yourself...

[image from too old to be available]
2004-09-09 01:06:01 PM  
[image from too old to be available]

Didn't HankTheCat mention "smear the queer" the other day?

2004-09-09 01:06:05 PM  
Just because typewriters existed that could create these documents does not really address the issue of why one would be used by a state national guard, or that personal memos would be typed with the care to superscript letters and perform the other format niceties that these memos seem to have.

You're right, it's way too improbable that the TANG would use a typewriter with proportional (!) fonts and superscript (!) capability. By far the simpler explanation is that this is a massive conspiracy.
2004-09-09 01:06:27 PM  
Wow, the New York Times, LA Times, CNN, Chicago Tribune, and Washington Post are the biased liberal media, but one random guy on a blog is worth listening to.


Actually, yes, they are. Perhaps you should spend more time watching the retractions section of above news outlets. Like the story of Bush supporters booing Clinton's heart surgery from the AP? How many papers carried that? How many carried the retraction? Big media was so happy to repeat what should've been an obvious "no one is THAT tasteless" story, they just copy-pasted instead of verifying it for themselves.

How hard is it now for a reporter to watch a raw video clip? I guess it's easier to make a retraction when you're caught:

What was the lib reaction to that?

"AP Edits Booing." You love the media when they lie on your behalf, then scream conspiracy when someone calls them out.

And then there's the curious correlation between when Kerry wipes his mis-remembered adventures in Vietnam off his campaign site and a few random guys on a blog who actually research the BS he's been spewing.

Following reports from the UK that France forged the Niger uranium docs that Joe Wilson "discovered" but never saw, and now the possibility of a forged document to "prove" that W was AWOL from Guard Duty, I'm no longer surprised about the depths some people will go to undermine this country in time of war, or how eager others are to swallow it.

For all the crying US libs and socialist Europeans make about "the end doesn't justify the means", they're not above creating "good-facts" to support their own ambitions. But it's no surprise from the side of American politics that can't go a month without comparing Bush to Hitler.

If Kerry and his supporters here and abroad see transparent lying as the preferred strategy for dealing from a position of weakness, they have no business making policy for the most powerful nation on earth.
2004-09-09 01:07:50 PM  
But military service doesn't matter...

for democratic candidates named Clinton.
2004-09-09 01:08:25 PM  
Funny how there seems to be lots of people claiming to be Republicans who say they're voting for Kerry on FARK, but real pollsters looking for real data can't seem to find them out in the wild.

On the other hand, it's easy to think of prominant national Democrats voting for Bush: Zell Miller, Ed Koch...
2004-09-09 01:09:35 PM  
I'm definitely a part of the ABB crowd, and I know very little about typewriters, from the early 1970's or any other point in history. People have been mentioning the proportional font, but I've stared at the document for a while, and can't really see anything that looks particularly 'proportional' (if someone could explain the concept, that would be most appreciated). That being said, the superscript with the smaller type is glaringly obvious. As much as I'd love to see anything that would discredit Bush, I'd rather have nothing than have a forgery. The guy's a douche bag (as is Kerry), but making forgeries isn't going to help the situation.
2004-09-09 01:09:41 PM  
This is all over the interweb for two days - and doesn't make the front page of Fark until it's refuted. Says it all for me, really.
2004-09-09 01:09:56 PM  
And Bush's service with the National Guard is relevant because...?
2004-09-09 01:10:34 PM  
Until it can be proven that that particular Nat. Guard unit did not have access to the (apparently readily available) typewriters that could produce that specific font and attendant features, then any cries of forgery are nothing but partisan hornblowing. Forgery is a crime, and it's not the presenters of the documents who have to prove themselves innocent, it's the decryers who have to prove them guilty. As soon as solid evidence is presented that these documents could not have been typed in the early 70's, they will have to be taken at face value.

But HEY Bush-Haters! Pay attention. The posted article purports that the documents, which put Bush's Nat. Guard service in a very bad light, were actually forged by anti-Bush guys. It's NOT that the Bushies forged docs to make Bush look good.

But HEY Bush-Lovers! Sucks to be you right now.

For those who ask why the 'Nam stuff matters, well, it really doesn't affect the important issues a President will face in the modern world, but there is a principle at stake here. Bush has portrayed himself as a strong military leader, yet is hampered by as-yet unquashed rumours of dodging his military service (which, since it was domestic, would be even more pathetic if true); at the same time, when Kerry brags about his Vietnam service and medals (too much, IMO), the Bush crowd do whatever they can to taint his service record.

Now, if we were in a Clinton/McCain race and Clinton pulled this crap on McCain, we would see what the Repulicans really think of such tactics (admittedly McCain's service record is quite a bit more distinquished than Kerry's). But at this point the only thing that can be said for certain is that Kerry served in combat country, and Bush did not.

That all being said, I'll just just ring this bell again: there are a lot more important reasons to want Bush out of office than questions about National Guard service thirty years ago.

Now I gotta go and practice my love on the women of America.
2004-09-09 01:15:01 PM  
Perhaps you should spend more time watching the retractions section of above news outlets.

I noticed the retractions about unfound claims in support of the Iraq war, and going too easy on Bush administration deceptions.

God Bless Faux News Channel
2004-09-09 01:15:47 PM  
Prussian Roulette

Thank you for once again bringing reality back to this discussion.

Bottom line is that the idealogues from the extreme left and right should all be viewed with suspicion.

Unfortunately it's the extremists that are in charge on both the right and left, leaving people who have more in common than they realize, to squabble about nonsense like service records and recollections of events that have nothing to do with the present problems.
2004-09-09 01:17:24 PM  
Look, I don't care what kind of "facts" (favorite tool of the evil liberal media) keep coming up about Bush being non-perfect. Bush is doing God's work! So he cannot go wrong. We put too much emphasis on book-learnin and rational thought. We just need to have faith in our leaders. Just like the founding fathers, they didn't question authority, they accepted the divine wisdom of their leaders.
2004-09-09 01:18:02 PM  
1. It has not been refuted.

2. It's relevant because common sense tells you that proportional font was not "readily available" in the early 1970s, so when records show up years later using that font, it's only reasonable to question how that could be.

3. The war record of a self-proclaimed "warrior president" who is sending thousands of men and women off to die, and who has repeatedly allowed his minions to disparage the heroism of his political opponents is always relevant.

4. You know how you make the war issue go away, Bush? Focus on the economy, the debt, record job losses, outsourcing . . . oh, not too attractive an alternative? Gee, I guess you'll have to go back to beating a bona fide warrior up over his war record (and bleating nonsense when people start questioning yours).
2004-09-09 01:20:05 PM  
Bottom line is that the idealogues from the extreme left and right should all be viewed with suspicion.

I agree. Next thing you know, those extreme left wing idealogues (sic) will be trying to tell us that the Earth is round and not at the center of the universe, or that "idealogues" is not a word.
2004-09-09 01:22:54 PM  
It apparently doesn't matter to whatever dumbasses want to vote for him...

Exactly. It's not as if the general voting public has ever posessed any sense.
2004-09-09 01:22:58 PM  
RE: 7 minutes of "inaction"

Has it ever occured to the people who so badly want to think Bush an incompetent jackoff, that perhaps those 7 minutes were used to circle the wagons? For instance, quickly debrief the Secret Service, get the vehicles lined up, check the hallways and exits, get the pilots loaded up, check the plane for gas, make sure it had enough to remain in the air for a very long time, call around and find out where all the major players were currently located and where they would head... and THEN, Bush gets a subtle signal such as a nod of the head or a wiggle of a nose letting him know it's time go.

But I guess Michael Moore being the impartial source that he is wouldn't ever put any negative spin on those 7 minutes, and besides, it's much more fun to make Bush the horrible person you already believe him to be.
2004-09-09 01:24:32 PM  

Yeah, Air Force. Must be nice to receive a jar of pickles at your pristine little airbases, in your nice little RESTAURANTS, with air conditioning, which we Marines HAVE to defend, in the dirt, eating our tasteful prepackaged MRE's, since you weaklings aren't up to that job. But hey, that's why you guys are our SISTER service.

hahah...Air Force is REAL get a ribbon for completing you 6 week basic training. Do you even qualify with a weapon? Hey, how's that freaking exercise bike physical fitness test you guys have?

Oh love the new cammie uniforms, flyboy:

Hahahah...Air Force making fun of Marines.

BTW...good joke
2004-09-09 01:24:36 PM  

So is the fact that American prisoners of war were subjected to further torture due to the comments made by the "hero" relevant as well?

Or would this fact be another attempt to smear the "hero"?
2004-09-09 01:26:10 PM  
From this news story:

CBS reported Wednesday night that it had obtained personal files from one of Bush's Texas commanders saying Bush discussed with him how to avoid drills during 1972. The report on "60 Minutes" said the files were from the personal records of Col. Jerry Killian, who died in 1984.

In the memos, Killian complained of pressure from higher-ups to give Bush positive evaluations and said Bush talked about how to avoid taking a physical exam in 1972, when Bush eventually skipped six months of training and lost his pilot's wings for missing the exam.

After the broadcast, the White House, without comment, released to the news media two of the memos, one ordering Bush to report for his physical exam and the other suspending him from flight status.

That would be including this memo (PDF version of this and the others can be viewed here)--with proportional spacing and superscript "th," which the White House released itself and therefore must acknowledge as authentic:

[image from too old to be available]

So, does this settle the issue for you Freepers/LGFers?
2004-09-09 01:27:10 PM  
2004-09-09 12:46:11 PM waltvm

You're willfully missing the point: one-party rule = BAD, messy, two-marty rule = GOOD.

Sounds like you'd be perfectly happy with Bush winning and Democrats somehow obtaining majority in Congress.

Not a perfect situation, but at least we end up with a good leader.
Who? Ahmed Chalabi?
2004-09-09 01:27:35 PM  
That "torture" nonsense is overblown b.s. Why don't you guys who keep trotting that out ever admit the obvious? That if guys like Kerry didn't speak out against the war (which, by the way, involved documented atrocities that Kerry didn't make up), thousands more would have died.

But that would be cutting Kerry too much slack, wouldn't it?
2004-09-09 01:28:09 PM  
heh. My dad, a former Marine, would tell me stories about the days he was in Korea and how they would have to sleep in tents set up on an airstrip, but the Air Force guys would get rooms in a hotel.
2004-09-09 01:30:05 PM  

Just because the MLA has a way to cite something, doesn't mean it is a vailid source. They try to respond to the needs of the academic community and give a way to cite anything that might come up. Notice, MLA also provides a way to cite Internet Chats, listservs and discussion groups, which I don't think they are endorsing as valid source material, which is determined by the community at large during peer review, not by the MLA.
2004-09-09 01:30:10 PM  
Cyberluddite I wonder why they would superscript the "th" in the body but not in the header. That's something a grammar nazi like me would have noticed. Well, I did notice it.

Not questioning the authenticity, just noticed the discrepancy.
2004-09-09 01:30:14 PM  

You agree yet you demean. Funny how in your erudite wisdom to point out that "idealogue" is not a word that indeed you knew what I was referring to.

That's because you are one.
2004-09-09 01:30:58 PM  
Dude, how retarded.

The people at Little Green Footballs evidently believe the Times New Roman font was invented by Bill Gates.
2004-09-09 01:31:21 PM  
lol bush is dum lol
2004-09-09 01:31:50 PM  
I just read the recent Harpers article on 'Year Zero in Iraq'and I am howling mad at this administration.

Yes, I know that Harpers is liberally biased. But what this article provides is a cojent explanation for the undisputed popularity of the 'insurrection' by the Iraqis. The gist of the article is that we essentially have attempted to sell out all state-owned enterprises to create a free-market paradise in Iraq. What has resulted is massive unemployment and, initially, a mad grab for Iraqi assets by foreign interests. This was not sweetened by Bremer's first move, which was to fire half a million Iraqi servicemen--who then had no realistic hope for employment.
The only thing that has prevented all state assets being sold off is the ferocity of the armed response. You see, lot of pissed off people who are out of work and have arms easily at hand (because we let them loot the Iraqi army depots) tend to react in not-too-friendly ways.

What does this have to do with the article? Nothing. Other than explain part of the reason why I could not in good conscience vote for our current president, nor condone that anyone else vote for him. Forged documents or not.
2004-09-09 01:31:59 PM  
This shiat is way too fishy. People have been poking around for so long, it's surprising it came out now. While the discussions about superscripting "th" gets too foggy for me to be certain of myself, it makes a good deal of sense. The guard wouldn't purchase high-end typewriters that could superscript "th" if the standard non-super "th" would do just fine. I'm sure Kerry's people would'nt want to be caught with their hands in this, so somebody thinks they're doing JK a favor. Moron. Dirty tricks can and do backfire.

BTW...Flush the Johns!
2004-09-09 01:32:24 PM  
Thor's Hammer:

So is the fact that American prisoners of war were subjected to further torture due to the comments made by the "hero" relevant as well?

That is not a fact! Prisoners were subjected to torture that included comments made by Kerry. But to assume that they would not have been subjected to torture without the comments is just plain stupid. To assume that the comments caused the torture is deliberately stupid. You have to try to be that dumb.
2004-09-09 01:32:45 PM  
More lies and deception from the most corrupt and arrogant administration ever??? What are the odds???
2004-09-09 01:32:57 PM  
2004-09-09 01:26:10 PM Cyberluddite

Okay. That's a forgery. I absolutely can tell, and it's very easy. Any takers?
2004-09-09 01:33:10 PM  
Vet_Curm, 3horn, mtrac, zaz, GorgeousOrifice, et al:

It has become obvious to me that the so called "fact" that proportional spacing was around in the '40s, which were supposedly "before" 1972, hates America.

Seriously, linking to LGF and FreeRepublic stories? What next, Democratic Underground by way of DailyKos?
2004-09-09 01:34:11 PM  
I conducted my own analysis

The document has been produced in Microsoft Word. The font is Times New Roman, 12 point (default of Microsoft Word). The 'th' superscript is automatic, all word wraps occur at the exact position, all characters line up with Bush memo.

Try it yourself if you don't believe me.

So this would indicate to me that there is no possible way that a typewriter could produce this exact text. Document appears to be printed in a laser printer, photocopied and rescanned into computer (less than 30 shades of grey in image).

Who forged this is the other question, is it the writer of the blog or can these documents be verified as part of the official records?
2004-09-09 01:34:23 PM  
Wow, what a steaming pile of horseshiat.

You need to learn ya some history, son.

2004-09-09 01:34:51 PM  
Whoa. Daily Kos isn't even in the same league as the rabid, foaming, crazy f-ckers at Free Republic and DemUnderground.
2004-09-09 01:35:03 PM  
Microsoft word automatically converts 187th to
187 th.
[fark doesn't like sup & u tags for some reason]

Just as in this "recovered" 1972 document..

The person who forged this should have at least used a typewriter..
Not so many noticeable word processing artifacts.

You know the GOP is getting scared when they're this sloppy *AND* this lazy.
2004-09-09 01:36:30 PM  
This does not look good:

"Original Document"
[image from too old to be available]

Opening Word, typing in exact same text (using defaults)
[image from too old to be available]

Someone's got some 'splaining to do.
2004-09-09 01:36:46 PM  
Move on. Nothing to see here. Just politics, as usual. Neither side is right or wrong. Address the issues of today and the future. Let's move on...come on..move forward.
Bush/Kerry scum. HO hum...
2004-09-09 01:37:25 PM  
I find it odd that the newspost doesn't say where they got it from or exactly when the memo is written and whom it's written to.

Who - No answer, Only the significant name Bush is mentioned, no idea whom it was written to and whom it was from.
What - A fake memo, source unknown
Where - again, source unknown
Why - To cast light on Bush's dubious service record
How - Possibly by an computer generated document with 15th generation copying artifacts.

Questions - Is that possible, that there is no typewriter at that era that has no superscript th? Where can I confirm that?

Where can I confirm this news post? is this the only "source"?
2004-09-09 01:38:43 PM  
whidbey: You're obviously not read the forged documents. The forged documents are saying that Bush did not serve properly.
They were released by the senator who is saying he "regrets" he helped bush into service.
So finding these out to be forgeries helps Bush.
2004-09-09 01:38:58 PM  


Someone's got some 'splaining to do.
That'd be CBS.
2004-09-09 01:39:10 PM  
2004-09-09 01:34:11 PM HansBlix
2004-09-09 01:36:30 PM FatRatBastard

Much easier way to prove it was photoshopped.
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