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(Chron)   Israelis to barbecue outside jail cells of hunger strikers   (chron.com ) divider line
    More: Amusing  
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18268 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Aug 2004 at 5:24 PM (11 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



271 Comments   (+0 »)
   

Archived thread
 
2004-08-16 01:21:55 PM  
Now, if they BBQ'd the hunger strikers, we'd have a truely amusing headline.
 
2004-08-16 01:32:10 PM  
Come on! No "Your Prisoners want steak" ????????/
 
2004-08-16 01:36:53 PM  
No, your prisoners want Ribs!

If it were me, it would be pork ribs, because I'm a cruel, sick bastard. They'd want it, but then I'd tell them they couldn't eat it because it was pork.
 
2004-08-16 01:41:46 PM  
Ah yes, our wonderful Israeli allies. Why would anyone have a problem with us pouring money on such fine folks?
 
2004-08-16 01:43:54 PM  
On the bright side, at least this will help them show how serious they are about striking. Because if I participated in a hunger strike and bacon was brought in sizzling in front of me, the strike would be over pronto.
 
2004-08-16 01:49:16 PM  
Your infidel dogs want steak?
 
2004-08-16 01:49:31 PM  
More evidence that this will never end. So sad.
 
2004-08-16 01:51:28 PM  
I don't think they'll be cooking up any bacon or pork ribs, but other than that, I like the idea.
 
2004-08-16 02:25:14 PM  
HAHAHAAHAHHAHAHA

I'll have some baked beans with my handbasket
 
2004-08-16 04:29:24 PM  
What a great idea. It's nice to see a non-violent response to a non-violent protest.
 
2004-08-16 05:25:04 PM  
MMMMMMM, Pork Chops.
 
2004-08-16 05:25:32 PM  
HumbleGod
I'm not sure if they will be B-B-Qing bacon, just a hunch.
 
2004-08-16 05:26:06 PM  
Classic. Gotta love the Israelis.
 
2004-08-16 05:27:31 PM  
there's a disgusting joke about ovens here somewhere, but I can't find it.
 
2004-08-16 05:28:00 PM  
And the winner for least heterosexual post in this thread goes to, techmaniac!

Step down and claim your prize!
 
2004-08-16 05:28:38 PM  
I seriously had to rub one out after reading that article.
 
2004-08-16 05:29:38 PM  
Geez, there are even anti-Semites on Fark? No disgusting comments, please.

I've always admired the Russians for pulling stunts like what the article mentions.
 
2004-08-16 05:30:27 PM  
I don't think they are barbecueing (sp), I think they are grilling.

/knows the difference
 
2004-08-16 05:30:31 PM  
The Cook, The Hunger Striker, His Wife, and her Rabbi.
[image from blackstar.co.uk too old to be available]
 
2004-08-16 05:30:42 PM  
Mr. Sharon, on behalf of Jews everywhere, I want my moral high ground back.

/Flame on
 
2004-08-16 05:30:42 PM  
Why does this have to turn into an Israel/Palestine flamewar, can't we have one on charcoal vs gas-grilling or something?
 
2004-08-16 05:30:52 PM  
you know back in the day, sieging crusaders would cook and eat the flesh of fallen Saracens in plain view of the Muslim barricades (cannabalism is essentially the worst of the worst according to Islamic law)

to get back at them, when the Saracens sacked a Christian town, they would leave a "calling card" of crosses smeared with their vanquished's blood all over every door, rock or wall.

So with that taken into consideration, I guess this isn't so terrible.
 
2004-08-16 05:30:58 PM  
Man. Thats farked up... *barbeque sauce..*

/loves a good BBQ
 
2004-08-16 05:31:33 PM  
Last year when some students went on a hunger strike at my school, another group of students handed out free pizza right across the street.

The administration wasn't very amused, but most of the student body was (specifically the ankles and the right ring finger).
 
2004-08-16 05:32:39 PM  
Now I like the Israelis more than ever!

/fryin like a lion in zion
 
2004-08-16 05:34:02 PM  
Shalom ka bobs.

[image from qchillel.org too old to be available]
 
2004-08-16 05:35:16 PM  
I wonder if it is true barbeque, or if they are just grilling. Big difference.
 
2004-08-16 05:35:44 PM  
Arafat is still locked in that building? I had no idea. That was big news a couple of years ago.


Ha ha!
 
2004-08-16 05:36:02 PM  
but is it kosher?
 
2004-08-16 05:36:20 PM  
Ask for a cheeseburger
 
2004-08-16 05:37:15 PM  
Egad. The level of asshattery demonstrated by both sides of this conflict is truly mind-boggling.

The saddest part is that there exist win-win scenarios, but both sides actively want the other to 'lose', to the point where they'll put themselves through hell to get there.

Attention, [Palestine|Israel]: Quit being a bunch of asshats. We no longer care 'who started it', we no longer care 'who deserves the land'. Your actions over the past few decades are streaked with treachery, deceit and aggression, and the rest of the world is quickly losing all patience with you. In case you hadn't noticed yet, killing more of the other guy hasn't done a lick of good for you. Grow the fark up and learn to live with your neighbors already.
 
2004-08-16 05:38:03 PM  
Now that's some funny shiat. They're not beating them, they're not forcing them to eat, they're simply giving them a little bit of temptation.
 
2004-08-16 05:38:18 PM  
I always wondered what the value was in a hunger strike.

Let's see..prisoners quit eating= less expense for food, less waste, less time preparing and cleaning up after preparing the food. WOW those Palestinians are really putting a hurt to the Israeli's with this one!

Anyone know of a way to get 2 18 yr old boys to go on a hunger strike??
 
2004-08-16 05:38:27 PM  
techmaniac

No BBQ'ing in Germany, but they certainly did have the ovens going overtime.

/round trip ticket won't be necessary
 
2004-08-16 05:38:32 PM  
(Points out that at least the Israelis have prisoners, and that if someone from Israel tried to blow themselves up in any of the Arab countries opposing Israel(Including an independent palestinian state) they'd be shot on sight.)
 
2004-08-16 05:38:42 PM  
I'll bet it will be beef bbq. They'd have to throw on some pork ribs to get me to break.
 
2004-08-16 05:38:55 PM  
what about bacon wrapped sausages?
 
2004-08-16 05:39:32 PM  
Because psychological torture is always amusing!

Way to be the bigger man Israel, keep propagating that hate.
 
2004-08-16 05:40:01 PM  
Points out that at least the Israelis have prisoners, and that if someone from Israel tried to blow themselves up in any of the Arab countries opposing Israel(Including an independent palestinian state) they'd be shot on sight.)

And people still side with the Israelis? Who sounds like more of a dumbass here?
 
2004-08-16 05:40:49 PM  
[image from muckhead.ufies.org too old to be available]


Surrender to the pig!
 
2004-08-16 05:40:55 PM  
Man, I could go for some BBQ right now!
 
2004-08-16 05:41:17 PM  
skinink

Excellent film.
 
2004-08-16 05:41:17 PM  
They're cooking outside, so they're calling it 'que. We know that they won't be BBQing any pork shoulder or putting shrimps on the barbie - they're Jewish after all.

I'm imagining lamb kebabs... MMmmmmmmmm.
 
2004-08-16 05:43:31 PM  
[image from flea-mkt-music.com too old to be available]I want my hu-man-rights-hu-man-rights-hu-man-rights[image from flea-mkt-music.com too old to be available]
[image from flea-mkt-music.com too old to be available]I want my hu-man-rights-hu-man-rights-hu-man-rights[image from flea-mkt-music.com too old to be available]

/barbecue sauce
 
2004-08-16 05:43:52 PM  
Israel declared psychological war on hunger-striking Palestinian prisoners today, saying it would barbecue meat outside their cells to try to break their spirit.

nothing Israelis like better than breaking a little spirit.
 
2004-08-16 05:44:28 PM  
That's pretty farking great.

For the haters: maybe you should look at the number of prisoners in your own country before you start spewing uninformed crap. When you fix your own country, then you've earned the right to go trying to fix others.
 
2004-08-16 05:45:12 PM  
In retrospect, wishing I'd typed, "I want my country back, country back, country back"
 
2004-08-16 05:45:34 PM  
"The Prisons Service said it would draw on tactics used in hunger strikes by jailed Northern Irish militants in the 1970s and 1980s, such as withholding basic amenities"

And we all know how successful that tactic was...

For those that don't, the IRA/INLA hunger strikers that died became Republican 'saints', it heralded an upsurge in IRA activity and membership, the leader of the hunger-strike (Bobby Sands) got elected to the British parliament a month before he starved to death (a major symbolic and moral boosting victory for the Republican movement), and the British ended up giving in to all their demands.

"Those who don't learn from past mistakes are condemned to repeat them"
 
2004-08-16 05:48:00 PM  
"you should look at the number of prisoners in your own country before you start spewing uninformed crap"

Yeah, we hold prisoners, we just don't tortre them, oh, wait, right.

What does hown many prisoners we have have anything to do with how anyone else is being a cruel and unulual Nazi. Yeah, great logic.
 
2004-08-16 05:48:03 PM  
Because psychological torture is always amusing!

Every day in every way.
 
2004-08-16 05:48:24 PM  
Israelis to barbecue outside jail cells of hunger strikers...

France Surrenders.
 
2004-08-16 05:48:27 PM  
Jeffy Jeff

[For the haters: maybe you should look at the number of prisoners in your own country before you start spewing uninformed crap. When you fix your own country, then you've earned the right to go trying to fix others.]

Looks at the number of prisoners in my country, yeah, there sure are a lot of them, some of them jailed for victimless crimes like drug possession. That's a bit messed up.

At least we don't put them though psychological tourture though. I mean, I don't often see gaurds smoking a joint in front of a guy in for marijuhana possession.

How are you justifying this again?
 
2004-08-16 05:48:39 PM  
[image from thesmokering.com too old to be available]

Oh the suicide belt dropping humanity!
 
2004-08-16 05:49:49 PM  
Yellow Number Five - If I had to choose between rape and being tantalized by the smell of a BBQ, I think I'd pick the BBQ.
 
2004-08-16 05:51:43 PM  
Charcoal BBQ, taste way better than gas BBQ


/Flame on
//No really, if it's going to be done in time for dinner you need to go start the fire
 
2004-08-16 05:51:50 PM  
To those of you joking about the Israelies BBQ pork in fron of the prinsoners - I think you forget that people of the Jewish persuasion also don't eat pork. I don't think they'd care for the temptation of the smell of bacon either. Just something to think about - still an amusing twist to the joke.
 
2004-08-16 05:52:39 PM  
[If I had to choose between rape and being tantalized by the smell of a BBQ, I think I'd pick the BBQ.]

Hey who wouldn't.
 
2004-08-16 05:52:57 PM  
Hey there just grilling not blowing up people riding the bus... Killing innocent people, well that gets a pass..... but BBQing in front of people on hunger strike.... now you've gone too far...I guess anti-semites are everywhere, even on Fark.
 
2004-08-16 05:53:16 PM  
some of them jailed for victimless crimes like drug possession

Is there really anyone in prison for simple posession?
 
2004-08-16 05:53:31 PM  
Let them eat cake!
 
2004-08-16 05:54:29 PM  
I wonder if the following quote makes a difference to anyone;

"About half are either being detained without charge or until the end of criminal proceedings against them"
 
2004-08-16 05:55:23 PM  
Tobias Funke

Because criticizing Israel and Israeli policy = anti-semitism.

Nice persecution complex you have there.
 
2004-08-16 05:57:05 PM  
klatubaradanikto

Is there really anyone in prison for simple posession?

Given the fact that there exist '3-strike' laws, I'd assume yes. However, I don't live anywhere with such a policy, so I can't say for certain.
 
2004-08-16 05:57:08 PM  
The point here is that they are trying to get them to eat.

Speaking from experience, nothing gets me more hungry than meat cooking on a grill. I think you need to give the Israelis credit for looking after their prisoners health.
 
2004-08-16 05:59:41 PM  
It's bad enough they use Palestinian babies' blood for their rituals, now they're grilling the little buggers in front of their parents.

Mmmm, real baby back ribs.
 
2004-08-16 05:59:47 PM  
Tobias Funke
I guess anti-semites are everywhere, even on Fark.

This is, of course, true. But you do realise that the Palestinians (and all Arabs) are Semites too? So criticising the Israelis for their actions against the Palestinians can hardly be labelled "anti-Semite".
 
2004-08-16 05:59:54 PM  
Charcoal BBQ, taste way better than gas BBQ

[image from images.google.ca too old to be available]

"Blasphemy!"
 
2004-08-16 06:00:09 PM  
LittlePig and the rest of the clowns without a clue regarding this issue:

These are palestinian terrorists, men like the fine gentleman who shot and killed a mother and her 4 daughters, men responsible for the suicide bombings down to low ranking ones like those who threw pipe bombs and grenades.

They are protesting because they refuse to be searched, they want the barriers removed when they have visitors and they want public phones and basically to keep in touch with their respective terrorist groups so they can continue to operate as active terrorists, this was discovered when they were using cellphones and public phones in the jail. I remind you that these are men that in other countries would be hanged or in arab countries stoned to death or beheaded.

Now you don't know that palestinian terrorists in israeli jails did this sort of thing before and they got what they wanted, this time i'm hoping that the minister in charge will grow some balls.

And i suggest you do some reading on how prisoners are treated in jails in the palestinian authority (usually lynched by a mob before the "trial") or in arab countries. Strange you don't hear much about the atrocities going on over there, there was a paper published about prisons in egypt, i suggest you look it up.
 
2004-08-16 06:00:49 PM  
For those saying it's okay for Israel to do this because Palestinians use suicides bombers, don't you think it would be better to actually reward Palestinians who use non-violent protest? Let the Palestinians know that they have an honorable option to promote change and they might just use it over other options.
 
2004-08-16 06:02:35 PM  
klatubaradanikto if I hadn't smoked a *huge* joint out of my heavy 1/2oz bag when I was in Iowa, I'd probably just now be getting out of jail. (hint: 1/2oz = felony)
 
2004-08-16 06:02:43 PM  
This is cruel and should be condemned. Why not just let them be?
 
2004-08-16 06:02:54 PM  
Yawweh

You are technically correct, but the term isn't used that way anymore.

btw, nice fark ID
 
2004-08-16 06:04:45 PM  
If you were an Oscar Meyer weener, would you eat yourself? I know I would.
 
2004-08-16 06:07:08 PM  
Why don't Arabs or Jews eat pork?
Serious, I'm stupid so could someone fill me in on why they
don't eat pork?
 
2004-08-16 06:08:12 PM  
And a large snapping sound is heard around the world as the British simultaniously can't beleive they didn't think of using this tactic on Ghandi.


/and then realize, "Oh, right, vegitarian, nevermind"
 
2004-08-16 06:08:59 PM  
TappingTheVein

[These are palestinian terrorists, men like the fine gentleman who shot and killed a mother and her 4 daughters, men responsible for the suicide bombings down to low ranking ones like those who threw pipe bombs and grenades.]

Why don't you try reading the farking article?


"The 1,700 inmates, seen by Palestinians as symbols of resistance to Israeli occupation, want wardens to stop strip searches, allow more frequent family visits, improve sanitary conditions and install public telephones, supporters said. "

Seems reasonable to me. Even if this is a ploy to contact terrorists outside the prison as the Israelies contend, why not just give them a clean prison and monitor the visits and phone calls for information - seems like the ideal way to gain intellegence to me. Instead of aggravating the situation and breeding more hatred and animosity.

"About half are either being detained without charge or until the end of criminal proceedings against them. The other half have been convicted of security-related offenses. "

So yeah, some may indeed be terrorists, but not all of them by any means. Personally I have a BIG problem with ANYONE being held indefinitely without charges, I find it disgusting quite frankly.
 
2004-08-16 06:11:09 PM  
[image from fye.com too old to be available]

The Pork Sword.
 
2004-08-16 06:12:08 PM  
I know what I'm doing for the next PETA rally...
 
2004-08-16 06:12:29 PM  
Dano33

"Official" reason:

The pig is an unclean animal and God doesn't want you eating it.

Real reason:

Pork was generally unsanitary and unhealthy in the Middle East back when these religions came about. Since they didn't know about trichinosis, microbes, or other science thingies, they had to come up with an explanation as to why not to eat it.

Or something like that. I reserve the right to be wrong.
 
2004-08-16 06:12:29 PM  
bhbase99
Yawweh, You are technically correct, but the term isn't used that way anymore

But... but... but... society can't just go around changing the meaning of words and phrases! Now I'll have to replace my 1874 edition of "Dr. Bartholomew's Almanac, Consisting of Definitions of Words from the Vast Lexicon of the King's English, fit for the Educated British or Foreign Gentleman"!
 
2004-08-16 06:13:44 PM  
I will show my support for the jews by barbecuing some pork.
 
2004-08-16 06:15:13 PM  
Yahweh- not to mention the majority of Jews have no semitic blood in them at all (Khazars)
 
2004-08-16 06:15:20 PM  
Because their bassackwards religions tell them not to.

Today's Bible Lesson

Leviticus, Chapter 11
1 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron,
2
"Speak to the Israelites and tell them: Of all land animals these are the ones
you may eat:
3
any animal that has hoofs you may eat, provided it is cloven-footed and chews
the cud.
4
But you shall not eat any of the following that only chew the cud or only have
hoofs: the camel, which indeed chews the cud, but does not have hoofs and is
therefore unclean for you;
5
2 the rock badger, which indeed chews the cud, but does not have hoofs and is
therefore unclean for you;
6
the hare, which indeed chews the cud, but does not have hoofs and is therefore
unclean for you; and the pig,
7
which does indeed have hoofs and is cloven-footed, but does not chew the cud
and is therefore unclean for you.
8
Their flesh you shall not eat, and their dead bodies you shall not touch; they
are unclean for you.
 
2004-08-16 06:15:22 PM  
Mean mean mean!! But very funny :) But wait, if they are vegetarians, it won't work. Would it?
 
2004-08-16 06:16:28 PM  
Real classy...
 
2004-08-16 06:17:19 PM  
Yellow Number Five, trust me, i know all about it.
The murdering terrorists are seen as symbols of resistance, great for them. They are terrorists and they are in jail for a reason. They want to stop the strip searches so they can bring more cellphones in and basically they demand lots of things that will enable them to continue to kill, sorry if this seems like a rude gesture to you but the ones who should be making the rules over there are the wardens, not the prisoners. Good thing that they didn't demand to open bomb making workshops in the jail area or to be released at once.

True not all of them are there for blowing up kids at a coffee shop, some are there just for throwing bombs and assisting and planning terrorist activities.
 
2004-08-16 06:22:13 PM  
Tapping-Not in the least. It is true, the majority of Jews in the world today are of Eastern European descent. What of it?
 
2004-08-16 06:22:21 PM  
TappingTheVein

Nice, you ,as an Israeli, typify why your country will never know peace.

Some of those prisoners are being held with no charges, how can you possibly justify that. These gaurds blatantly antagonize and insult these prisoners, and you wonder why Palestinians hate Israel.

I'm certainly not saying that the Palestinians are doing anything to help the situation, but it seems to me that most Israelies don't want peace. Both sides are content with being petty and small instead of working to change the situation, and your attitude is ample evidence of that.
 
2004-08-16 06:23:27 PM  
Jews will only eat animals that deem worthy of being sacraficed to God. Which only include animals with cloven hoofs AND chew their cud.

Jews wont eat (or sacrafice to god) horses, camels, bears, dolphins, dogs, cats, rats, and most species of llamas.
 
2004-08-16 06:26:48 PM  
klatubaradanikto

Is there really anyone in prison for simple posession?


What United States of America are you from? Even here in "Ultra Liberal" California simple possesion can and does earn jail time. Even for a little weed and the cops are constantly trying to push down the amount considered "with intent to distribute" Sadly the voters are happy to go along with this and we march closer and closer to martial law all of the time.
 
2004-08-16 06:26:55 PM  
Strange you don't hear much about the atrocities going on over there,

there was a paper published about prisons in egypt

/is that an oxymoron?
 
2004-08-16 06:27:33 PM  
This is one of the reasons I hate Isreal. No, I don't hate jews. Why would I hate jews? There are tons of intelligent jews who understand that Isreael treats the arabs the way South Africa treated "the blacks".

Jews != Isreal.
Critisim of Isreal != Antisemitism,
 
2004-08-16 06:29:14 PM  
If it says eat no pork in the bible, then how come Jesus freaks still eat pork?
 
rpl
2004-08-16 06:29:19 PM  
Yellow Number Five

TappingTheVein

[These are palestinian terrorists, men like the fine gentleman who shot and killed a mother and her 4 daughters, men responsible for the suicide bombings down to low ranking ones like those who threw pipe bombs and grenades.]

Why don't you try reading the farking article?


Why don't you try looking into an issue deeper than reading a single article on the internet?
 
2004-08-16 06:30:25 PM  
I agree with bumbu.

I'm not an antisemite.
I am, however, anti-Israel.
 
2004-08-16 06:31:01 PM  
Let me just say that THIS christian conservative hates Isreal. Got no problem with Jews, but as near as I can tell Isreal is as close to Nazi Germany as the world has to offer today.

Guess not all stereotypes fit.
 
2004-08-16 06:31:14 PM  
The Israeli government has become to the worldwide jewish community what Al Qaeda is the the islamic community - a complete travesty of everything they are supposed to be. And what, may I ask, do these two organisations have in common that might be a contributing factor? How about the encouragement of the CIA?
 
2004-08-16 06:33:42 PM  
Is there really anyone in prison for simple posession?

At least 2 of my in-laws.
 
2004-08-16 06:34:20 PM  
Good luck trying to change the de facto definition of anti-semite, people.
 
2004-08-16 06:35:16 PM  
Yellow Number Five, my country will never know peace not because some guards are taunting asshat terrorists that demand to continue to operate from jail, it's because my country is surrounded by nations that swore to see my country destroyed and they have been trying to do so for the last 50 years without much luck while using my country and jews in general as scapegoats for all the bad things happening in their borders.

You are blaming Israel that the palestinian prisoners decided to protest ? The prisoners there are jailed for very good reasons, mainly they contribute to the deaths of israelis, it's nice to see that you feel for the poor prisoners, i feel for the families who lost everything because of these poor prisoners and people, some of which i knew, who died horribly because of these prisoners.

I suggest you go read some of the terrorists' covenants, also the one of the PLO, where they specifically say that they main goal is to destroy Israel regardless of any action on israel's side.
 
2004-08-16 06:37:24 PM  
rpl

In Yellow Number Five's defence he was replying to a post about "these" people ie the ones in the article ie the article about which this thread is from - and as the article states about half are not convicted of anything - or does the mighty democracy of the middle east not believe in innocent until proven guilty? - anyway if you can prove that those that have not even been charged or are in the justice system are all guilty then I suggest you prove it using even one"single article on the internet" or any other media or in any other way for your point to be valid
 
2004-08-16 06:37:59 PM  
Worried about the depopulation of the plains states?

Tired of hearing about the Palestinian Problem?

It's time for Dakotastein.
 
2004-08-16 06:38:22 PM  
rpl

[Why don't you try looking into an issue deeper than reading a single article on the internet?]

Why do you assume I haven't?
 
2004-08-16 06:38:29 PM  
Al Sicandar, have you read it ? i'm pretty sure you didn't know about it's existance.
 
2004-08-16 06:38:37 PM  
If it says eat no pork in the bible, then how come Jesus freaks still eat pork?

Because the New Testament supersedes the Old. Or, to put it another way, because Christians are not Jews, and believe that a whole new (and, on the whole, nicer) set of rules was handed down when Jesus preached. Of course, that doesn't explain why the asshat fundamentalists keep citing Leviticus. Most Jews don't think homosexuals and adulteresses should be stoned either, but alas they have their own asshat fundamentalists to deal with.
 
2004-08-16 06:38:46 PM  
I hate everyone!

Why don't we just bomb everything? Maybe we'll get a few million years of peace and quiet before the next civilization rises from our nuclear ashes.

/damn dirty apes
 
2004-08-16 06:41:43 PM  
Sigh... how many times to I have to post this? The term "anti-semite" was coined by a French count back in the nineteenth century. He hated Jews and wanted to come up with a term to describe his feelings towards the Jews. He published a magazine called "l'Anti-Semite." You guys act like we invented the term! You did. Deal with it.

The whole Khazar thing may have a basis in reality. Apparently back in the early Middle Ages the King of the Khazars in Central Asia decided it was time to convert from paganism. He invited a Christian priest, a Muslim imam and a Jewish rabbi to come argue the merits of their respective religions, and ended up choosing Judaism. The skinheads have seized on this anecdote (there's no hard evidence one way or the other that it's actually true) to claim that present-day Jews aren't really descendants of the biblical Jews but actually Khazars. The Jewish response to this is "so what?" We're happy to take in sincere converts and once in, you're Jewish. Besides that, there are plenty of Jews who actually can trace their lineage back to Biblical times. Certainly there's been some intermixing with other ethnicities but that's true of everyone. I don't see how it negates the traditional yearning for Israel that's been the centerpiece of our religion for the past 3500 years.

To get back to the article, I realize there's absolutely nothing the Israelis can do to satisfy the Muslim world and their supporters, but isn't this kind of mild? It certainly isn't genocide like some of you are making it out to be. It's psychological but I wouldn't even call it torture. What's to prevent the hunger strikers from holding their noses? The Israelis aren't saints but those prisoners aren't being mistreated by any reasonable stretch of the imagination; certainly not by US penal standards. The bottom line is, much of the world won't be satisfied until the Israelis give the Muslims ONE LAST CHANCE to annihilate them. Anything less is just bad sportsmanship.
 
2004-08-16 06:44:06 PM  
"it's because my country is surrounded by nations that swore to see my country destroyed and they have been trying to do so for the last 50 years without much luck while using my country and jews in general as scapegoats for all the bad things happening in their borders."

Wait a minute, do you think that might have anything to do with your country being carved out of the land of those people 50 years ago? I'd be pretty pissed too, especially when America sends billions of dollars over every year to ensure the new country's dominance over the whole region. Not sayin' strapping on a bomb is the best way to deal with it, but then again I don't have to live in a tent in a grape vinyard in Lebanon either.
 
Ral
2004-08-16 06:44:14 PM  
I never did really understand hunger strikes. I mean, ok, the prisoners refuse to eat. They suffer, waste away, and sometimes die. Who exactly is being punished here? Why should the jailers give a fark? Why should _I_ give a fark if some prisoner refuses to eat?

As previously stated, these particular prisoners are just mad that they can't communicate with their fellow terrorists anymore. They don't need public phones, or barrier-free visits, or more frequent family visits (they're lucky to get them at all). Israel is being smart in depriving them of the ability to continue their crimes.
 
2004-08-16 06:45:02 PM  
If you were an Oscar Meyer weener, would you eat yourself? I know I would.

No I wouldn't because everyone would be in love with me.
 
2004-08-16 06:45:05 PM  
kaliya, if there wasn't any charge on the way for them the many hardcore israeli leftist groups, like Betzelem, would make sure that a lawyer would have had them released and compensated. The are captured "in the act" (shooting, throwing pipe bombs etc) so it's kinda useless to say that they didn't do it.
 
2004-08-16 06:46:35 PM  
TappingTheVein

[my country will never know peace not because some guards are taunting asshat terrorists that demand to continue to operate from jail, it's because my country is surrounded by nations that swore to see my country destroyed and they have been trying to do so for the last 50 years without much luck while using my country and jews in general as scapegoats for all the bad things happening in their borders.]

Did I not say that half the blame rests on their heads? You will not know peace because Israel and the Palestinians and Arab world are acting like children. When you've finally killed enough of each other, maybe you'll be willing to sit down and work things out. I'm not holding my breath though.

[You are blaming Israel that the palestinian prisoners decided to protest ?]

When did I do that? I merely said they've got what (on the surface) appear to be legitamet gripes. Even if they are terrorists I don't see why they should be denied sanitary conditions or supervised visits from family.

[The prisoners there are jailed for very good reasons, mainly they contribute to the deaths of israelis....blah blah blah]

I never said that some of them aren't terrorists who deserve to be locked up, I did say that some of them are being held without charges - which is WRONG no matter how you look at it. I ask again how you justify that?

[it's nice to see that you feel for the poor prisoners, i feel for the families who lost everything because of these poor prisoners and people, some of which i knew, who died horribly because of these prisoners.]

I feel for those Israelies and their families as well, I also feel for Palestinian children and their families that get blown up by Israeli gunships.
 
2004-08-16 06:47:01 PM  
Right pollomacho, especially because the Jews forming Israel basically invented modern terrorism by the techniques they used against the resident Palistinians.
 
2004-08-16 06:47:58 PM  
TappingTheVein

you seem to be implying that the presence of this article is some sort of conspiracy against Isreal and that the existence of poor/evil/corrupt prisons in other nations somehow justifies them in your country.

The only prisons I have heard about in the east are Abu Ghraib (?sp) - hardly a showpiece for the western media wouldn't you say? Oh there was that other one in that film years ago in Turkey - a dim memory I think some yank gets done for drugs and goes through hell there.

The point is Isreal purports to be this high and mighty democracy so comparing your standards to those you consider inferior is to show you to be.... inferior
 
2004-08-16 06:48:24 PM  
Gee, get your land stripped away from you by both the UN in the 19040's, as well as by the jews over the next 50-odd years, and see what kind of attitude you get.

/adding fuel to the BBQ
 
2004-08-16 06:49:14 PM  
pollomacho, try reading the history of the region before you attempt to post about it, makes you look like an idiot.
 
2004-08-16 06:50:26 PM  
not at all yellow, look at some of the comments above.. and i have an errol flynn complex, not a persecution complex...
 
lws
2004-08-16 06:51:05 PM  
I used to slip bits of pork in my Jewish friends sandwiches. Then I beat him up one day for no reason. :)
 
2004-08-16 06:51:26 PM  
Whose history book, the one you read in an Israeli school or one that has the actual events as they happened?
 
rpl
2004-08-16 06:52:38 PM  
kaliya

or does the mighty democracy of the middle east not believe in innocent until proven guilty?

Well, when you raid a terrorist nest, do you look up every person in there individially to see if he's in fact a terrorist or not or do you assume that they're all terrorists?

Mind you, that the strike is in the prisons, as in; gov't prison authority. "Regular" militants (like the ones in the example) are kept in a prison under the military authority. The conclusion is, that if the people in there were "kicked up a notch" into the governmental facilities, there's a reason for it. As for trial, you don't normally try POWs untill the end of the war, which is what this is.

Straying a bit off the topic (or rather, moving on topic and away from the flamewar) it's not really a hunger strike either. What they're doing is moving to a liquid diet. One of the prisoners had recently ended a 14 month hunger strike during which he'd only consumed liquids (as far as we know, anyway) and the reason he was allowed to do it that long and wasn't force fed by the prison is that he was in perfect health.

Oh, btw, aren't we the evil nazi animals, huh? Monitoring our inmates' health like that to make sure they don't need to be fed, even if against their will. Gosh darn it, our inhuman reign of terror must stop!
 
2004-08-16 06:53:21 PM  
I'm blameless.
 
2004-08-16 06:54:05 PM  
But Israelis remained largely unmoved by the threat of escalation by the prisoners, many of whom openly identify with Islamic groups sworn to the Jewish state's destruction.

*poof* there went my sympathy.
 
2004-08-16 06:54:18 PM  
I dunno.

Prisoners are demanding certain things which they claim to be their rights, and are holding a hunger strike as a protest.

One point for the prisoners: non-violent protests are always far more effective than violent protests. They're not losing the moral ground here.

One point for the Jailers: they're combating this protest by trying to make the protesters hungry enough to eat. And even if they're grilling up a smokestorm just to spite the hungry prisoners, well, it still beats my country's track record with prisoners in the middle east: we've mastered what we call 'the glowstick treatment' Plus, this is a bit of a step up from the normal Isreali response, to wit: Apache gunships. Point to the jailers.

Maybe we should just be happy that for once, people over there in that hellhole aren't blowing each other up?
 
2004-08-16 06:56:25 PM  
Maybe we should just be happy that for once, people over there in that hellhole aren't blowing each other up?

Honestly, the prisoners' "peeps" probably view the psychological torture of cooking outside their cells as far more demeaning and cruel than if they'd simply executed them.
 
2004-08-16 06:58:50 PM  
As for trial, you don't normally try POWs untill the end of the war, which is what this is.

so is Isreal is at war against the Palestinians? - if so then by your logic Isreal is a legitimet target of the other party in this war. (ie they are not terrorists at all but soldiers in a war)

/not really arguing this - off to bed anyway
 
2004-08-16 06:58:54 PM  
rpl

[Well, when you raid a terrorist nest, do you look up every person in there individially to see if he's in fact a terrorist or not or do you assume that they're all terrorists?]

If you call yourself a democracy you do. Innocent until proven guilty, no matter what the potential cost.

[As for trial, you don't normally try POWs untill the end of the war, which is what this is.]

No, you are not at war. You have radical terrorists in amoungst the general population, and you are using that as justification to jail what very well may be innocent CIVILIANS without charge or trial.
 
2004-08-16 06:59:04 PM  
It's times like this I'm glad I live in the western hemisphere (the best hemisphere).

The dancin'ist hemisphere there is!
 
2004-08-16 07:01:57 PM  
Yellow Number Five again, read the terrorists' covenants, they say openly that their goal is to see Israel destroyed, it has nothing to do with israel's actions, nothing to do with the occupation, it's because of it's existance.

legitamet gripes ? so they should be allowed to continue to kill from within the jail, makes lots of sense. Their conditions are beyond what is expected in jails in your country. They have tv,radio and they are allowed to cook their own food and lots of things that prisoners usually only dream of.

About the no charge thing, i'll repeat : If there wasn't any charge on the way for them the many hardcore israeli leftist groups, like Betzelem, would make sure that a lawyer would have had them released and compensated. The are captured "in the act" (shooting, throwing pipe bombs etc) so it's kinda useless to say that they didn't do it.

Israel is responding to palestinian terrorism, if they actually planned on accepting Israel's existance and stopped attempting to murder israelis there would be no need for Israel to stop the terrorists.


Al Sicandar, i was making a point about the famous double standard, arabs can act like savages, noone flinches when in iran they chant "death to america" at their cabinet meetings, imagin what would happen if the US opened it's senate meetings with shouts of "death to iran".
 
2004-08-16 07:02:25 PM  
Actually the Israelis actually are like the Nazis. Remember how the Czechs were poised to invade Germany, and the Germans kicked their asses, then returned all the territory in hopes of a peace treaty? And remember how the Poles did the same thing and the Germans once again returned all their territory? And when the French attacked the Germans took Alsace but then gave it back in return for a peace treaty? And remember how the Jews were sneaking out at night and blowing up innocent women and children? And then remember how the Germans took such good care of their Jewish prisoners but the prisoners went on a hunger strike and 6 million of them starved themselves to death? The parallels are uncanny. I mean look at the rate of Israeli expansionism. They're annexing whole acres at a time! If things keep up like this those bastards will have conquered the entire Middle East in less than 10,000 years!

Sarcasm is fun.
 
2004-08-16 07:03:37 PM  
Nanookanano, the one that has actual history in it and not arab propaganda.
 
2004-08-16 07:04:03 PM  
legitimet = legitimate

/damn keyboard can't spell
 
2004-08-16 07:04:33 PM  
hog_nuts, you say the Jewish girls fark like bunny rabbits. Given your handle, were they allowed to tea bag you?
 
rpl
2004-08-16 07:05:39 PM  
hog_nuts

I met an Israeli guy once, he was in their Army. He said American girls are all whores, which makes me think that Israeli chicks don't put out that much.

Nah, it's just that pretty much every female tourist that comes here is 99% likely to screw someone. Especially if he's wearing a uniform. Our women (while on occasion oddly conservative) are mostly just as loose as anywhere else in the world. It's just that tourists are far easier. :D

An amusing anecdote: a friend of mine took part in some "root-seeking" program involving Canadian and American jews coming to Israel and meeting up with soldiers that would show 'em around for a week, give 'em an "authentic Israeli experience" (hah!). Anyway, during the briefing he and the others got, amongst the usual etiquette stuff (Israelies have no idea what proper manners are, you see), they were actually instructed how to behave if/once you fark a member of the group. It's that bloody common.

*sigh* god i wish i was still in the army :(
 
2004-08-16 07:06:42 PM  
I've said it before, I'll say it again:

Nationalism is a disease.
 
2004-08-16 07:08:18 PM  
"They have tv,radio and they are allowed to cook their own food and lots of things that prisoners usually only dream of."

What a dream life! Actually sounds better than the refugee camps they come from. I bet as soon as they switch on that Israeli TV those hours of standing on a box in a hood with electrodes clipped to their balls just melt away!
 
2004-08-16 07:09:11 PM  
Great, so finally we get PEACEFUL Palastinian protestors (ie. they're not blowing shiat up) and this is how they are treated? Good job Israel--they're just "mud people" anyway, right?
 
2004-08-16 07:09:22 PM  
Right!
That's what you would call the one that you studied in school.
 
2004-08-16 07:11:00 PM  
clambam
Hahaha!!! You scared the shiat out of me for a sec because I thought you were serious. I was afraid that stupidity would reach critical mass and blow the whole thread Israeli, Palestinian, and BBQ idiot alike to hell.
 
2004-08-16 07:11:07 PM  
I would think BBQ is the last thing you'd want to smell after not eating for days. Too rough on the stomach.

/'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'
 
2004-08-16 07:11:32 PM  
TappingTheVein

[again, read the terrorists' covenants, they say openly that their goal is to see Israel destroyed, it has nothing to do with israel's actions, nothing to do with the occupation, it's because of it's existance.]

Indeed that is what the terrorists say, but you've yet to prove that all of these prisoners (or all Palestinians for that matter) are terrorists. Not really sure what point you are trying to make here.

[legitamet gripes ? so they should be allowed to continue to kill from within the jail, makes lots of sense. Their conditions are beyond what is expected in jails in your country. They have tv,radio and they are allowed to cook their own food and lots of things that prisoners usually only dream of.]

No, that's why you monitor the visits and phone calls to gather intellegence moran. Sanitary conditions and visits from family are basic human rights as far as I'm concerned. Somehow I doubt that this prison compares to luxuries we afford our prisoners here in the US. Do you give them access to law libraries and lawyers, mail, telephones, TV, newspapers, etc?

[About the no charge thing, i'll repeat : If there wasn't any charge on the way for them the many hardcore israeli leftist groups, like Betzelem, would make sure that a lawyer would have had them released and compensated. The are captured "in the act" (shooting, throwing pipe bombs etc) so it's kinda useless to say that they didn't do it.]

They should be released and compensated for being illegally detained. Suspicion != Guilt, never has, never will. Prove they are terrorists or release them. Somehow I'd tend to think that if they were caught red handed they would've been charged, you're kidding yourself and you know it.

[Israel is responding to palestinian terrorism, if they actually planned on accepting Israel's existance and stopped attempting to murder israelis there would be no need for Israel to stop the terrorists.]

You make it sound as if the violence and hatred isn't a two-way street. Keep deluding yourself if it helps you sleep at night.
 
2004-08-16 07:11:42 PM  
pollomacho, i think you are a bit confused, This is not about Abu-Gharib.
 
2004-08-16 07:12:20 PM  
In rural Sweden, near Skovde, there's a castle you can tour where you can see the dungeon. Of course, it's in the basement, and it has a big vent. Directly above the vent is what used to be the baronial kitchen, so that the starving prisoners could constantly smell the delicious meals being cooked.

Let me point out that this was acceptable behavior--IN THE EIGHTH CENTURY.
 
2004-08-16 07:12:38 PM  
"Returned all the territory they took" clambam?

If that was the case there would be no Israel at all.
 
2004-08-16 07:12:55 PM  
Oh, yeah, that was amature. Sorry, we have to contract out for the type of services offered in Israeli prisons.
 
rpl
2004-08-16 07:15:29 PM  
kaliya

As for trial, you don't normally try POWs untill the end of the war, which is what this is.

so is Isreal is at war against the Palestinians? - if so then by your logic Isreal is a legitimet target of the other party in this war. (ie they are not terrorists at all but soldiers in a war)


A soldier doesen't traditionally target unarmed civilians in a war.

Yellow Number Five

[As for trial, you don't normally try POWs untill the end of the war, which is what this is.]

No, you are not at war. You have radical terrorists in amoungst the general population, and you are using that as justification to jail what very well may be innocent CIVILIANS without charge or trial.


You really have absolutely no idea about what's going on here, do you...?
 
2004-08-16 07:15:55 PM  
You know you're absolutely right Nanook. Thanks for making it very clear that the only solution you'll accept to the Israeli/Palestinian situation is the complete destruction of Israel.
 
2004-08-16 07:17:48 PM  
Clearly, the solution is this:

Israel needs to build a library, increasing their culture rating and causing the nearby arab communities to join them.
 
2004-08-16 07:17:52 PM  
If I lived in a country where I lived in constant fear of daily terrorist attacks I would hope that my government would take extreme measures to at lest attempt to secure my safety and to make proper examples of those who do successfully commit "acts of terror". (God I hate that phrase.) Whether you think Isreal should be there or not is inconsequental (sp?)because the fact is IT IS THERE AND HAS BEEN FOR THE LAST 50+ YEARS! Most countries have been created from the stolen land of others, the US included. When do we reach the point where we accept reality and move on?
What I really don't understand is why it's acceptable for the Palistinians to blow up innocent people in the name of change but not okay for other extremist groups to do so. I bet Al Queda shares the same feelings for America that the Palestinians do for Isreal. Why is one worth going to war over and the other seen as brave and justified? Is it because Jews are involved? I hate to say something like that because it makes me sick, but it's really the only explanation I can think of.

/I know my spelling is horrible.
//If I am wrong here please let me know. I'm not saying that "I'm right, You're Wrong" but it is really hard for me to understand where most of you seem to be coming from and I would like to.
 
2004-08-16 07:20:40 PM  
TappingTheVein is right... look up the history of how Israel was formed. It was actually formed on land given legally by the British. Some Jews wanted their homeland back, so they acquired it legally, and now they're trying very very hard to keep that land. The Arab countries around it have many people that feel it is their religious obligation to destroy Israel and, no matter what concessions are made, they continue to work toward that. There have been many wars for survival already -- many of you live in America, do you know what it is to fight for your home? When was the last time a bunch of big countries around the US were deadset on destroying it? The closest thing to it is happening now with the few Arab fundamentalists that preach againt the US and the terrorist organizations that act against it -- Israel has it infinitely worse than that.
 
2004-08-16 07:21:10 PM  
mmm, just the thought of bbq is making me hungry!
 
2004-08-16 07:22:05 PM  
The Palistinians hate the Israelis much more than Al Queda hates the US. Much, much more. You know how a few US soldiers mistreated some prisoners? That's pretty much how the entire State of Israel has treated the entire population of Palistine for fifty years.
 
2004-08-16 07:22:36 PM  
Monkey_Stories

Charcoal BBQ, taste way better than gas BBQ


The best of all: mesquite.
 
2004-08-16 07:24:55 PM  
Karma Crusade, the British were dissolving their colonial empire, so, instead of giving the land back to 'some damned infidels' they gave the land away to some other body of 'more christian' people who wanted to populate it. Yeeeeeeah, that really ""legal"".
 
2004-08-16 07:26:07 PM  
highwebl

I have another proposal: relocate Israel to America

[image from lewrockwell.com too old to be available]

"There is plenty room to do it. Israel has an area of only about 5 million acres (7800 square miles), just slightly smaller than New Jersey. Its population includes about 5 million Jews (about the same as the number of Jews already in America). Israel's area is less than 2% of the public land controlled by the BLM. Perhaps even a smaller area would suffice, say 2 or 3 million acres. Sufficient space could no doubt be carved out of the public land in any number of states Alaska, Nevada, Wyoming, or Utah, for example. Or, as suggested in the "New Israel" map above, between Nevada and Utah Utah (yellow on the map denotes BLM-administered public land; the red patch indicates a possible location for New Israel). Or, heck, put New Israel up in Alaska's 19-million-acre Arctic National Wildlife Refuge ("Anwar"), and lease the oil exploration and production rights to them. The (New) Israelis an oil power how's that for turnabout!"
 
2004-08-16 07:26:21 PM  
Simply saying that Isreal has been mean to the Palistians does not in my mind justify a campain of terrorism. It seem to me that blowing stuff/people up simply will lead to more badness as Isreal retaliates and attempts to protect itself and its citizens.
 
2004-08-16 07:26:53 PM  
"given legally by the British"

I don't think I have anything to say to that. Yep, that makes total sense. Because the British gave someone else's land to them, that makes it legal then.

"Some Jews wanted their homeland back"

Hey, guess what, some Palestinians want their homeland back too, sucks for them though because the British said its really not theirs, I guess they'd better find somewhere else to live?
 
2004-08-16 07:27:16 PM  
Bring in some ovens an bake cookies after lacing their smokes with weed.
Munchies + fresh baked cookie = end of hunger strike.
 
2004-08-16 07:27:28 PM  
Yellow Number Five

"Indeed that is what the terrorists say, but you've yet to prove that all of these prisoners (or all Palestinians for that matter) are terrorists. Not really sure what point you are trying to make here."

No they just happen to hold a grenade in a throwing stance while an israeli passed by. What i said was about your sayings that Israel is causing the problem, if you bother to read the terrorist's coventants you'll see that it's Israel's existance, not Israel's actions. They say so openly. Also they stated openly that the palestinians are used as pawns in the holy jihad against israel, who do you rhink fund the palestinians ? Iran, Syria, Saudi-Arabia and the rest of the gang who has been trying to destroy israel for 50 years, since their shameful loss in 48'.

"No, that's why you monitor the visits and phone calls to gather intellegence moran. Sanitary conditions and visits from family are basic human rights as far as I'm concerned. Somehow I doubt that this prison compares to luxuries we afford our prisoners here in the US. Do you give them access to law libraries and lawyers, mail, telephones, TV, newspapers, etc?"

They want the barriers removed when they have visits, they do so to smuggle cellphones and notes etc. Yes they do have access to libraries, some even finish their studies in jail, same goes for tv, radio, papers etc.

"they should be released and compensated for being illegally detained. Suspicion != Guilt, never has, never will. Prove they are terrorists or release them. Somehow I'd tend to think that if they were caught red handed they would've been charged, you're kidding yourself and you know it."

They are not illegally detained, they are captured because they are caught shooting or whatever, i'm not talking about the high ranking ones responsible for suicide bombings and such where their faces and explois are known usually for years, all of them are charged, not the instant they are brought there because frankly there are lots of them.

"You make it sound as if the violence and hatred isn't a two-way street. Keep deluding yourself if it helps you sleep at night."

Of course it's a two-way street, but i don't read passages in Israel's laws where it states that all palestinians should die for the glory of the jewish god, the same can't be said about the palestinians.
 
2004-08-16 07:28:01 PM  
Nanookanano:

Actually, they pretty much abandoned the zionist jews in the face of what was believed to be complete annihilation.

Or, more correctly, they left because they were tired of the zionists using terrorist tactics on them.
 
rpl
2004-08-16 07:28:46 PM  
Nanookanano

But, do consider that the Israelis might . . just might . . be mistreating the Palistinaians just a wee, little bit.

Sure. And often, too. A lot of the soldiers at the border checks are complete dicks to the general population. Many people volunteer to the fighting units out of pure racial hatred towards arabs. There's cases of prisoner abuse, unneccesary violence, what have you. Hell, i even remember an incident about a year ago where an entire squad of troops from border patrol murdering an innocent palestinian as some sort of "revenge" for one of their comrades getting killed.

Of course, none of the above (which are incidents that have nothing to do with the government and are prosecuted whenever discovered) have anything to do with the specific case of prisoners deemed dangerous enough to be moved to a maximum security prison with the according rules going on a liquid diet in an attempt to make foreign idiots pity them, but yeah, mistreatment is unfortunately a growing trend in the recent years.
 
2004-08-16 07:29:54 PM  
The way to eliminate palestinian terrorism: give them attack helicopters, tanks, and armored bulldozers so they can blow up Israeli buildings in a civilized fashion.
 
2004-08-16 07:31:46 PM  
I think we need to make that giant leap to an era when blowing up stuff/people/yourself is not seen as a viable means of social change. Saying it is okay for one group to do so because they are oppressed but not okay for another group because you are the target is wrong.
 
2004-08-16 07:32:07 PM  
bigbadideasinaction:

Wouldn't work. Much of the actual terrorist acts over there are either sponsored or at least applauded by the same governments and NGOs that already tried the tanks-and-artillery bit. It didn't do very well, so what we've got now is the same thing on a more person to person basis.
 
2004-08-16 07:32:28 PM  
OMGWTFBBQ!!?!?!
 
2004-08-16 07:32:42 PM  
Nanook, I said before that the Israelis aren't saints. Sure there's mistreatment, arrogance and disdain. Some of the biggest jersk I know are Israelis. I still have to say, most Palestinian suffering is self-inflicted. If you're going to sneak into the next country in order to murder people, you have no right to complain when that country imposes draconian measures to prevent you slipping in. Palestinian suffering as a result of the checkpoints and now the security fence is very real. All they had to do to prevent it was to NOT attack Israeli civilians. Like it or not the suicide bombers have or had the support of the Palestinians at large. Their attacks could of have been prevented, but instead they were encouraged. The Palestinians have brought this down on themselves.

Now look at the complaints of the Palestinian prisoners. They don't get enough phone calls? They don't get enough showers? I don't hear them complaining about getting their fingernails pulled out because that sort of shiat just isn't happening (as it tends not to happen in civilized countries, which Israel is). Aw, did the mean old guard call you a name? Poor baby. Give me a break...

Personally I have never understood the Arab/Muslim willingness to let the Palestinians suffer. Let me tell you, if the situation were reversed, if there were 22 Jewish countries with 2 million square miles of mostly empty territory and some Jews were being persecuted in an Arab one, those guys would be outta there and resettled so fast your head would spin. This isn't and never has been about the rights of the poor downtrodden Palestinians. It's always been about the unwillingness of the Muslims to give up ANY territory, no matter how small and godforsaken. Hell, they wouldn't mind getting Spain back (that's next, you know--they still refer to the 1492 expulsion of the Moors from Spain as "the Great Disaster").
 
2004-08-16 07:33:59 PM  
some history In his November, 2002 interview with the New Statesman magazine (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2481371.stm), the UK Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, has blamed Britain's imperial past for many of the modern political problems, including the Arab-Israeli conflict.

"The Balfour declaration and the contradictory assurances which were being given to Palestinians in private at the same time as they were being given to the Israelis - again, an interesting history for us, but not an honourable one," he said.

More?

Lehi was a radical Jewish underground military group which was terrorist according to both its own description and that of its opponents. It was active during the British Mandate of Palestine prior to the founding of the State of Israel and during the first part of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. The British authorities dubbed it the Stern gang, after its founder, Avraham Stern.

Lehi was founded by Stern in 1940 as an offshoot from Irgun. Following Stern's death in 1942, and the arrest of many of its members, the group went into eclipse until it was reformed as "Lehi" under a triumvirate of Israel Eldad, Natan Yellin-Mor, and Yitzhak Shamir. Shamir became the Prime Minister of Israel forty years later.

Lehi was known for its Anti-Imperialist ideology. It considered the British rule of Palestine to be an illegal occupation, and concentrated its attacks mainly against British targets. Lehi prisoners captured by the British generally refused to present a defence when brought to trial in British courts. They would only read out statements in which they declared that the court, representing an occupying force, had no jurisdiction over them and is illegal. For the same reason, Lehi prisoners refused to plea for amnesty, even when it was clear that this would have them spared from the death penalty. In one case two Lehi men killed themselves in prison to deprive the British of the ability to hang them.

Late in 1940, the Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig and delivered a letter from Lehi offering to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich". Von Hentig forwarded the letter to the German embassy in Ankara, but there is no record of any official response. Lehi tried to establish contact with the Germans again in December 1941, also apparently without success.

Apart from the small number of high-profile operations, Lehi mostly conducted small-scale operations such as assassination of British soldiers and police officers and, on occasion, Jewish "collaborators". Another operation (1947) was to send bombs in the mail to many British politicians. Other operations included sabotaging infrastructure targets: bridges, railroads, and oil refineries. Lehi financed their operations from private donations (not always voluntary) and robbing banks.

Noted Lehi attacks:

November 6, 1944 - Lehi assassinates Lord Moyne, a British government representative blamed for the White Paper immigration policy, in Cairo. This act rocked the British government, and outraged Winston Churchill the British Prime Minister. The two assassins were captured, sentenced to death, and executed.
April 9, 1948 - Lehi and Irgun attack Deir Yassin (see Deir Yassin massacre).
September 17, 1948, Lehi assassinated the UN mediator Count Folke Bernadotte. Bernadotte's insistence on the right of the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes was the cause for his murder. The assassination was directed by Yehoshua Zetler and carried out by a four-man team led by Meshulam Markover. The fatal shots were fired by Yehoshua Cohen. Lehi leaders Nathan Yellin-Mor and Matitiahu Schmulevitz were arrested two months after the murder. Most of the suspects involved were released immediately and all of them were granted general amnesty on the 14th of February, 1949.
In 1980 Israel instituted the Lehi ribbon, red, black, grey, pale blue and white which is awarded to former members of the Lehi underground.

more?
Irgun
The Irgun was considered to be a terrorist organization by the British, amongs others, but many Israelis regarded its members as freedom fighters. Irgun is known by its Hebrew acronym Etzel. Its best known activity was the bombing of King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946, which killed close to a hundred people.

Irgun actions
1937-1939 - A large number of attacks against Arabs, sometimes en masse, were carried out, especially under the command of Moshe Rosenberg and David Raziel. For example, 24 Arabs were killed and 39 injured by a marketplace bomb in Haifa, February 27, 1939, and further casualties were caused by bombs in Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv on the same day. (Sources: Palestine Post 2/28/39; Y. Ben-Ami, Years of Wrath, Days of Glory; Memiors of the Irgun (1982))
July 22, 1946 - Irgun bombs King David Hotel in Jerusalem, headquarters of the British civil and military administration, killing 91 people (17 Jewish) (Source: [1] (http://www.onwar.com/aced/nation/jay/jew/firgun1931.htm))
October 31, 1946 - Irgun bombs British Embassy in Rome, Italy. (Source: [2] (http://www.cdiss.org/)).
September 29, 1947 - Irgun bombs police station in Haifa, Palestine, killing four British and four Arab policemen, and two Arab civilians. (Source: [3] (http://www.cdiss.org/)).
December 29, 1947 - Irgun throws grenades into cafe in Jerusalem, Palestine, killing 11 Arabs and 2 British policemen. (Source: [4] (http://www.cdiss.org/)).
9 April 1948 - The Irgun together with the Stern gang attacked the Palestinian village of Deir Yassin during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, killing at least 107 civilians. See Deir Yassin massacre
 
rpl
2004-08-16 07:34:46 PM  
bigbadideasinaction

The way to eliminate palestinian terrorism: give them attack helicopters, tanks, and armored bulldozers so they can blow up Israeli buildings in a civilized fashion.

Will there be a guarantee that they won't go back to terrorism once we win like they did the last time? 'cause if so, then i'm game.
 
2004-08-16 07:38:02 PM  
before you ask - sourced from wikepedia
 
2004-08-16 07:38:48 PM  
toraque

True. I don't think it would work... I'm just tired of people having a false sense of moral high ground because they're using a cruise missile instead of a truck bomb to attack with. If (during the Iraq invasion) a group of Iraqi soldiers in uniform singing the farking Iraqi national anthem approached hit the white house with a shoulder-fired missile in broad daylight, we'd call it a cowardly terrorist attack. When countries that can afford cruise missiles fire one to specifically strike "without warning", we call it a "decapitation strike".

I think one of the major reasons we outlaw WMDs is because we know without them we can basically wail on the opposition and there's not a thing they can do about it. Just like we can blow up civilian structures (which magically turn into "infrastructure" when we do it) without warning and somehow weep and wail when they do the same to us.

Violence isn't going to solve this. I just rather have Israel/the US/whoever stop thinking that somehow their brand of violence is somehow morally defendible by pumping billions more into the production of it.
 
2004-08-16 07:39:31 PM  
Loretta The Peoples front of Judea. Splitters.
Reg We're the Peoples front of Judea.
Loretta Oh. I thought we were the Popular Front.
Reg Peoples Front! [scoffs]
Francis Whatever happened to the Popular Front, Reg?
Reg He's over there.
[A single old man sits on a lower seat.]
PFJ [To the old man.] SPLITTER!
 
2004-08-16 07:41:12 PM  
Clambam:

The people in the positions of power in Arab governments aren't really all that concerned about individual people's lives. Hell, the people in our governments here don't much care aside from what votes they get, in my opinion.

Many Arab governments have severe internal issues that are much easier to bear as long as there's an oppressor. Pandemic corruption's easier to hide when you can point at all the starving and brutalized palestinians.

Check out any arab newspaper, or hell, even statement at the UN, and they can work in the Palestinian Opression angle on anything. It's amazing sometimes, really.

It's kind of funny that a culture that prides itself so much on generosity and hospitality can ignore the suffering of a people they claim a kinship to, but as long as the Isreali's are dumb enough and angry enough to prolong the situation, it's not going to get much better.
 
2004-08-16 07:41:30 PM  
No, I'm not talking about namecalling.
I'm talking about shoving millions into Gaza, then saying "Oh, by the way, this nice beach is ours because we need a resort, and your traffic will have to stop for six hours while our vacationers travel travel between our State and your-- oops, I mean our beach. Tough noogies."
 
2004-08-16 07:42:58 PM  
rpl The only thing probably saving most of the mideast from nuclear destruction is that there aren't any open hostilities. Part of me wonders if this isn't why the rest of the mideast hasn't been supplying Palestine with real weapons to get the job done - if a real war ever happened it'd be unlikely to end until half the mideast is covered in glass from all the melted sand.
 
rpl
2004-08-16 07:44:33 PM  
Nanookanano

I'm talking about shoving millions into Gaza, then saying "Oh, by the way, this nice beach is ours because we need a resort, and your traffic will have to stop for six hours while our vacationers travel travel between our State and your-- oops, I mean our beach. Tough noogies."

Ok, i get it, you're talking about events that never took place. But the question is why?
 
2004-08-16 07:45:12 PM  
[image from images.google.com too old to be available]

HA HA!
 
2004-08-16 07:47:32 PM  
Nanookanano:

Bringing up individual atrocities inflicted by one side or the other is kinda pointless. Neither side is an innocent victim, and both sides are farked up to where they can no longer stop killing each other.

The only way you separate people like this is by sending in an even bigger, even stronger bully, but we here in the states are pretty much tired of being the bully so it's gonna have to be someone else's turn this time, I think.
 
2004-08-16 07:47:58 PM  
"Events that never took place"?

http://www.poica.org/casestudies/geopolitical%20situation/geopolitical​-map-of- gaza.gif
 
2004-08-16 07:48:56 PM  
The "bigger, stronger bully" we send is the almighty US dollar.
 
rpl
2004-08-16 07:51:55 PM  
bigbadideasinaction

rpl Part of me wonders if this isn't why the rest of the mideast hasn't been supplying Palestine with real weapons to get the job done - if a real war ever happened it'd be unlikely to end until half the mideast is covered in glass from all the melted sand.

Never gonna happen. The rest of the mideast isn't interested in neither an open conflict nor giving the palestinians "proper" weapons - an open conflict with Israel has a history of ending badly, and if the palestinians are ever to score "proper" weapons, they will lose the "oppressed underdog fighting with whatever he can muster" angle the europeans love so much.

I mean hell, if it were real were they'd be after, they'd stop sending underpowered suicide bombers into half-full buses and just knock down a mall or two - it's really not that hard.

It's all psychology and PR man. No more proper fo'yin.
 
2004-08-16 07:53:39 PM  
Al Sicandar, thanks for the laugh! The Stern Gang offered to fight alongside the Nazis in return for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich"? Jeez, can I get some of whatever it is you guys smoke when you make that stuff up?

You're all correct, of course. The British had no right to give that land to the Jews. They should have returned the entire Middle East to the Turks at the end of World War II. After all, they were there first.
 
2004-08-16 07:54:57 PM  
That is awesome!
 
2004-08-16 07:58:41 PM  
Nanookanano:

I'll make you a deal. The US cuts off all aid to Isreal and the middle east, and we make sure that no assistance makes it to the palestinians, either. Maybe we'll hire someone to build a big wall around the place, although from the news lately it sounds like the Isreali's have already got that part figured out.

Actually, I'm pretty much for cutting off foreign aid except for our close allies who actually need it. Seems like almost everytime we send money or food or soldiers to try to get the money or food to the starving people, they try to kill us. Then Bruckheimer makes a blockbuster out of it.
 
2004-08-16 07:59:27 PM  
You're saying the writers at Wikepedia are stoned?
 
rpl
2004-08-16 07:59:27 PM  
Nanookanano

"Events that never took place"?

You got it. No one was ever forcefully moved anywhere in Israel (except for a couple settlers here and there, but no one seems to care about them for some reason) so no "shoving of millions" took place. Not to mention that i've yet to meet a person stupid enough to go to Gaza for a swim, nor have i ever heard of a beach resort there. And i've been here for 14 years.
 
2004-08-16 08:01:28 PM  
clambam

hey just because you have been fed biased histories does not mean it ain't true - wanna read the source? here it is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29

look at the references
J. Heller, The Stern Gang (Frank Cass, 1995) ISBN 0714645583
K. Marton, A death in Jerusalem (Pantheon, 1994) ISBN 0679420835 -- Bernadotte assassination

lastly Proposal by the Stern Gang to participate in WWII on the side of Germany (http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/irgunazi.htm) (note: this is a non-reliable source, with a clear anti-Zionist ideology, but the letter from Lehi presented there is genuine.)

Go read the full letter - then try to reprogramme your brainwashed head
 
2004-08-16 08:02:02 PM  
That's really my only sure stance on this issue, toraque, that I'm mighty sick and tired of my country's bucks going to what seem to me to be the bad guys.
 
2004-08-16 08:02:39 PM  
No, rpl, didn't you look at the poica.org site? It's funded by the EU! It must be true!
 
rpl
2004-08-16 08:05:01 PM  
clambam

No, rpl, didn't you look at the poica.org site? It's funded by the EU! It must be true!

SHHHHH!
 
2004-08-16 08:06:27 PM  
Let em starve.
 
2004-08-16 08:07:48 PM  
certainly looks like the zionists would sleep with the devil himself to get what they wanted doesn't it?

/it tells you something about Isreal's mindset - that the leaders of the self declared terrorist organisations became revered prime ministers with awards created after them
 
2004-08-16 08:08:26 PM  
So, just why are the Israelis colonizing sections of Gaza?
 
2004-08-16 08:10:17 PM  
Shocking, Al Sicandar. I went to the page and it's just like you said. I was curious about "Werner Otto von Hentig" so I clicked the link. Surprise, surprise! There was no page on "Werner Otto von Hentig" and I was invited to write my own! Same for "Naftaki Lubenchik." A Google on the name found 20 pages with the exact same text as Wilkipedia. Hmmm...
 
2004-08-16 08:11:53 PM  
TappingTheVein

pollomacho,
try reading the history of the region before you attempt to post about it, makes you look like an idiot.

Nanookanano

Whose history book, the one you read in an Israeli school or one that has the actual events as they happened?

TappingTheVein

Nanookanano, the one that has actual history in it and not arab propaganda.


Therein lies the reason I gave up on the whole thing. I've listened to Israelis and Palestinians talk about the history of the region and they can't sem to agree on much of anything. There's no common ground to work from. Both sides are so filled with hate and anger that there doesn't really seem to be any solution.

As far as the BBQ and hunger strike go ... meh ... seems like a pretty tame tactic to me. Although I doubt if it will do any good.
 
2004-08-16 08:11:58 PM  
anyway - did somebody mention the winners of the paralympics?

/ain't nobody ever gonna win and isreal/palestine thread so what is the point? I am off.
 
2004-08-16 08:15:04 PM  
Nanookanano:

They're both the bad guys. Problem is, we're not doing a whole lot better lately.

Maybe if we took steps to restore our place in the moral high ground, then we could actually try to lead the world into some direction other than down, but since both parties in the upcoming elections are asshats, everyone's pretty much screwed.
 
rpl
2004-08-16 08:15:19 PM  
Nanookanano

Because the rest of it is taken?
 
2004-08-16 08:15:57 PM  
You need a reliable reference for Lehi history?

http://www.lehi.org.il

Enjoy!
(I would, but I don't read Hebrew.)
 
2004-08-16 08:18:52 PM  
Here's a reasonable-sounding source for a LEHI-NAZI link:

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/text/x15/xr1503.html
 
2004-08-16 08:19:05 PM  
before i go

clambam

eh?what?

read the 2 sources ISBNs given
read the letter and prove it false if you can (it is the only place i could find it online) otherwise admit it - just putting fingers in ears and crying is not evidence to the contrary - show me a flat factual rebuttal of the wikepedia stuff - i will check tomorrow with eager anticipation
 
2004-08-16 08:21:03 PM  
Bulldozers are a pretty convincing way of insuring a piece of land is not "taken".
 
2004-08-16 08:24:23 PM  
[image from dev.swsimulation.com too old to be available]

/literally
 
rpl
2004-08-16 08:27:08 PM  
Nanookanano

Not listening is a pretty easy way of making sure your precious worldview isn't shattered.
 
2004-08-16 08:31:43 PM  
No sacred cows here.

Shatter away.
 
rpl
2004-08-16 08:34:23 PM  
Riiight.
 
2004-08-16 08:39:50 PM  
I guess one could term land where a handful of rather primitive people inhabiting rude shacks and living by dirt-scratch farming as "unoccupied" and "undeveloped" land. Especially when when one has a modern civilization that will place large, clean, air-conditioned buildings and a large, industrial farm on that land.

My question is, do the Palistinians remain in such a primitive state because they are some kind of lesser life form, or are they being deliberately kept in that condition by Israel?
 
2004-08-16 08:40:47 PM  
No, seriously, tell me.
I'll listen.
 
2004-08-16 08:41:14 PM  
upsdrvr

I always wondered what the value was in a hunger strike.

Let's see..prisoners quit eating= less expense for food, less waste, less time preparing and cleaning up after preparing the food. WOW those Palestinians are really putting a hurt to the Israeli's with this one!


It forces people with attitudes like the one that you just put forth into a moral dilemma. Or else to simply retain that attitude without putting any thought into it, thus forever proving that they're amoral asses.
 
2004-08-16 08:44:38 PM  
I think it's a sex problem. Let's face it. Some of those Israeli chicks are hot and willing to put out and they're not afraid to show it off. But will they give it up for a Palestinian dude? I doubt it! So the spurned Palestinian then has to say that the Israeli chicks are immoral for letting it all hang out.

Meanwhile, I for one, can't really blame the Israeli chicks because those Palestinian guys are amongst the most fugly ugly lookin' peeps around.

As for the Palestinian chicks, who can tell? From what I can see, , but they're not allowed to advertise if they're worth tappin'.

Obviously it's time for some of those Palestininan sympathising Europeans who have hot chicks and buff dudes to send some of their quality down to Palestine in order to create some better lookin' Palestinians who are a lot more liberal with the nay nay and willing to intermarry with the Israelis.

Meanwhile, let's get the Israeli girls to take one for the team and wander over to the Palestinian communities to give out a few charity BJs. I ask you, who blows up a chick who gives you a low cost per BJ? Exactly!

/Reverse Lysistrata strategy wins every time
 
2004-08-16 08:46:32 PM  
Oh, man, this is straight out of Children of the Revolution! I think they called it the "Pork Sword" in the movie.
 
rpl
2004-08-16 08:48:50 PM  
Their infrastructure was just fine untill the PLO took over and started diverting the funds from taking care of it's own people to bombing us...

Anyway, i'm off to go bash my head against a brick wall for a bit before bed. The result's gonna be about the same, but it's a bit less painful.
 
2004-08-16 08:49:43 PM  
Yahweh

For those that don't, the IRA/INLA hunger strikers that died became Republican 'saints', it heralded an upsurge in IRA activity and membership, the leader of the hunger-strike (Bobby Sands) got elected to the British parliament a month before he starved to death (a major symbolic and moral boosting victory for the Republican movement), and the British ended up giving in to all their demands.

They really should do it the Irish way. Staggered hunger strikes. One person per week starts. One person per week dies. Much more effective than a mass strike that, if waited out, is simply one major PR hurdle to get past.
 
2004-08-16 08:50:16 PM  
Nanookananono:

Well, considering that pretty much the only time the Arab countries give them much aid is when they blow themselves up, I'd say their fellow pan-arabists aren't exactly beacons of hope and light, either.

Saddam wasn't the only guy handing out bounties for martyrs. Shame no one's handing it out for building schools or hospitals, but I guess they'd just get blown up anyway.
 
2004-08-16 08:52:30 PM  
This thread is seriously lacking in Drooling Homer!

/http://www.jbeldin.com/personal/homer_drool.jpg
//Wish I could do HTML to include the necessary picture
 
2004-08-16 08:52:47 PM  
Jesus 2.0:

Or take a page from MLK's book. Ten thousand Palestinians singing 'We shall overcome' and then getting strafed by an American made, Isreali piloted fighter bomber would be something no one could really ignore.

Maybe then we could farking stop giving them planes.
 
2004-08-16 08:54:26 PM  
Psychohazard

For those saying it's okay for Israel to do this because Palestinians use suicides bombers, don't you think it would be better to actually reward Palestinians who use non-violent protest? Let the Palestinians know that they have an honorable option to promote change and they might just use it over other options.

Cynically, from an Israeli government point of view, that would be the worst thing to do. Make a Palestinian Gandhi and Israel doesn't have a chance to hold on to its more outrageous claims.
 
2004-08-16 08:55:41 PM  
Dano33

Why don't Arabs or Jews eat pork?
Serious, I'm stupid so could someone fill me in on why they
don't eat pork?


Because the Koran and the Torah (respectively) say not to.
 
2004-08-16 08:56:36 PM  
My question is, do the Palistinians remain in such a primitive state because they are some kind of lesser life form, or are they being deliberately kept in that condition by Israel?

...or is it because their "leaders" are more interested in fomenting Jew-hating and keeping their people occupied with a war they cannot ever win using their current strategies, all the while taking monies that SHOULD be spent on infrastructure and lining their pockets?

Could THAT be the reason? Naahhh. I'm sure the hundreds of millions in Arafat's bank accounts are interest from money he socked away in the days when he used to have a newspaper route.
 
2004-08-16 09:03:14 PM  
[image from images.foodnetwork.com too old to be available]
 
2004-08-16 09:07:48 PM  
Gobbledigook

/http://www.jbeldin.com/personal/homer_drool.jpg
//Wish I could do HTML to include the necessary picture


Try:

<img src="http://www.jbeldin.com/personal/homer_drool.jpg" />

And it should wind up looking like:

[image from jbeldin.com too old to be available]
 
2004-08-16 09:09:31 PM  
toraque - I've often wondered why they don't, myself. The answers seem to boil down to:

A)The Palestinian people have suffered injustices too dispicable and grave for peaceful protest to be an option. I guess the Indians didn't have it so bad under British rule.
B)Israel would destroy the Palestinian race by Wednesday if the Palestinians abandoned terrorism for peaceful protest.

Besides, terrorism is working out so well for them.

I dunno. I just think that it's a crying shame.
 
2004-08-16 09:11:00 PM  
Two and a half billion Euros is more like it.
 
2004-08-16 09:13:04 PM  
(That's something like three billion US.)
 
2004-08-16 09:30:19 PM  
nanookanano

that's what's in Arafat's accounts?!?!?

Must cause a huge dichotomy in Gaza: exactly how can we blame charman Arafat's blatant graft and corruption on the Jews?
 
2004-08-16 09:41:40 PM  
Littlepig:
"Ah yes, our wonderful Israeli allies. Why would anyone have a problem with us pouring money on such fine folks?"

What a creepy post. Go buy yourself some perspective on the issue.
 
2004-08-16 09:42:47 PM  
As I remember it, that's the estimate.
His wife is/was under investigation in France.

I'm not blaming things on the Jews, I'm noticing trends in events, and asking questions.

It matters nothing whether you prove me wrong or right, if I persist, in the end I will know the truth of the matter, anyway.
 
2004-08-16 09:48:31 PM  
I'm not blaming things on the Jews

i didn't say you were...unless you're in Gaza, in which case, based upon your posts, I think you are a very atypical Gaza resident and what i posted above applies to most of your neighbours and not you.
 
2004-08-16 09:54:35 PM  
Certainly it's a sh*tload of money.
I don't know if graft and corruption is the source.
Most, if not all, Muslim leaders tend to have boatloads of money. It's like it is expected of them. But, that's typical in absolutist societies. The population lives vicariously in the glory of the one. I'd lay odds that the hungriest, dirtiest, scruffiest Palistinian one could find on the street would respond with vast pride at hearing of Arafat's billions.
 
2004-08-16 09:55:45 PM  
What? No naked pyramid pictures?

/LOL Abu Ghraib
 
2004-08-16 09:59:41 PM  
Indeed, what could be more amusing than tormenting the wrongfully imprisoned?
 
2004-08-16 10:01:09 PM  
The Israeli/Palestine mess was created when the Brits decided to stick their noses into this particlar corner the middle east, with the help of some ancient writings.

The US right now is main "Meddler" right now.(Saudi, Iraq, etc) The Former USSR was heavily into it too (Cuba, Angola, Afghanistan). Of course, before that is was Germany. Spain, Holland, France, Belgium and countless others played this game at one time. Most of those miserable states in Africa are former colinies of European nations.

Too bad the world's powerful nations that always feel justified in doing this an invariably wind up making a MUCH bigger mess in the long run.

Yes, I know there are some success stories out there but by in large, once the big boys gt involved, they leave basket cases in their wake.
 
2004-08-16 10:03:53 PM  
"Certainly it's a sh*tload of money.
I don't know if graft and corruption is the source.
Most, if not all, Muslim leaders tend to have boatloads of money. It's like it is expected of them. But, that's typical in absolutist societies. The population lives vicariously in the glory of the one. I'd lay odds that the hungriest, dirtiest, scruffiest Palistinian one could find on the street would respond with vast pride at hearing of Arafat's billions."

They also have a fool-proof strategy to CONTINUE to steal millions. That is to tell their poor, uneducated and filthy rabble of a peoples that the JEWS and the USA are to blame for their misery. Works every time. The Saudis have been doing it for years, and then turning around when someone calls them on their bullshiat and saying, "Wha...ME?" Oh, I'll pay for ads on American television and radio saying we are good guys...
 
2004-08-16 10:05:48 PM  
Can't agree with you on the Catholic terrorist thing, Gogo.
My people have been Prots since there was such a thing, but I and my folks have our sympathies with the Irish.
 
2004-08-16 10:09:22 PM  
Treat me like an Irish soldier
And a prisoner of war
For the days of Irish freedom
Is the thing I hunger for

Oh, my folks have practiced starving
Since the British came in view
Treat me like an Irish soldier
For I do what I must do
 
2004-08-16 10:11:59 PM  
I do condemn terrorist methodology, whoever uses it.

(US included)
 
2004-08-16 10:16:56 PM  
All of you can flame about this as long as you want. The fact is, you have to respect the resourcefulness of the Isrealis. The Palistininians are asking for things that the Isreali government views as a threat. Try living in a country where a major terrorist attack is as common as a delayed flight or rainshower. Then you can preach about human rights. All of you flamers have your panties in a wad over nothing. If you don't live in Isreal, it's not for you to judge their criminal laws. I'd rather be arrested there than about 95% of the rest of the world. And besides, they are really keeping their sense of humour about it. I must say, this makes me proud to be a Jew!
 
2004-08-16 10:25:30 PM  
"I'd rather be arrested there than about 95% of the rest of the world."

Well Inanna, you're not a ni- . . uh, I mean "Palistinian".
 
2004-08-16 10:54:44 PM  
Nanookanano

You whine about your money going to Israel... so funny. Do you realize the U.S. gives almost as much to Egypt? and they HATE you.

keep running with the herd of the easily led.
 
2004-08-16 11:03:53 PM  
I'm not happy with US money going to Egypt, either.

"Whine"? Say that to my face, big guy.

And, go ahead and keep calling people "sheep" when they don't think like you do.
It helps the cooperative folks locate the lone predators.
 
2004-08-16 11:08:51 PM  
It's not so bad being a sheep . . when you're a bighorn ram.

Come, starving cur, let us butt heads.
 
2004-08-16 11:11:09 PM  
Ok, am I the only one who read the article and said "I can see them asking for improved sanitary conditions, but strip searches and isolation are just part of the summer ca... prison experience"?
 
2004-08-16 11:13:26 PM  
Yahweh

Hahaha, not worth it, gremmer is kind of crappy.
 
2004-08-16 11:28:20 PM  
Oh the hmanity! BBQ'ing in front of the prisoners on hunger strike!

Some people really need to get their heads out of their asses. First, they're in prison for a reason. Second, we do worse daily to our own prison population and I don't see any biatching on this side of the fence. In fact, I see daily referrences to the all too humurous "pound me in the ass prison."

If you have such a bad problem with something so benign as this and find yourself biatching about everything Israelis do, yes, you might just be an anti-semite.

Christ, you people griping about this care more about Palestinian criminals than you do American criminals. How much more pathetic can you possibly be? Yes, it's pathetic. Look in the mirror if you don't believe it.

It could be a hell of a lot of worse, they could be in an Islamic prison. Those are just so much more humane. How many human rights abuses did Turkey's prisons get with again this year, how about Saudi, or Iran? And here y'all are biatching about a farking BBQ in Israel.

Anyway, pass the BBQ sauce and hold the hypocrites. Better yet, throw them on the barbie too, we can feed the dogs while we're at it.
 
2004-08-16 11:31:15 PM  
I've read every post in this thread, Omega, and I don't recall more than two or three posts decrying this tantalization technique.

The arguements against the Israeli treatment of Palistinians given above are all based on more serious charges than teasing hungry people.
 
2004-08-16 11:41:26 PM  
Check out Norman Finklestein's website.

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/

He is a Jew and makes a very convincing case against Isreal. He debated Alan Dershowitz on Democracy Now and made him look like a fool.
 
2004-08-16 11:44:19 PM  
Normally I find torture deplorable (especially in the hands of the already ruthless Israelis), but this is goddamn hilarious. Take THAT, moral compass!
 
2004-08-17 12:23:20 AM  
I'd have to say someone is an 'anti-semite' if they fundamentally disagree with the notion of Israel as a Jewish state.

Israel has the right to defend its borders, protect its people, and clamp down on insurgents at every turn.

They're harsh SOMETIMES, but they can hold their own, too. And they're really getting sick of the hundreds of millions of Arabs blaming them for everything, and attacking them daily.

They have a right to be over the top occasionally, and knock down their enemies. The Jews have a land and an ideal to protect.
 
2004-08-17 12:27:15 AM  
The Palestinians are finally doing the right thing and resorting to non-violence and look what the Israelis do to them. It's awful.

BTW.. the term palestinian comes from Palestine.. the country which was removed from the map by the british to make israel 50 years ago. So technically speaking, there are no israelis over 50. Just Americans, Russians, Poles, and other Jews. Keep that in mind.

Palestinians are being kicked out of their hoomeland and then imprisoned for trying to get it back.
 
2004-08-17 12:51:01 AM  
Interesting thread on something that will be proved useless by simple demographics.

Like most Westernized countries' populations, Israeli Jews reproduce at about replacement rate, 2 children per couple.

Arab Palestinians reproduce at about 6 children per couple. Even with two killed by throwing stones at tanks, and the resultant gunfire, Arabs still win in population numbers.

Israel is trying to import Russian and even African Jews, but their melting pot is apparently too hot.

Palestine was recognized as a country by the IOC. WTF? Where's the Vatican team?

What we have here, folks, is a genyoowine clusterfark.

/Have fun storming the castle
 
2004-08-17 12:59:40 AM  
F**king Israelis.
F**king Palestinians.

Only primarily-racial conflict I know of where BOTH sides are almost completely in the wrong.

The only solution I can think of for that conflict at this point involves the word "Megaton," or possibly even "Gigaton."
 
2004-08-17 01:14:52 AM  
noodlegts, I must enlighten you on the history of the area.

Lesse here, there has never been a country known as Palestine. Palestine, an area inhabited by Bedouin tribes, Jews, Arabs, and Druzh, was first contolled by the Jews in the ancient times, then the Romans, then the Fatamid Caliphate, then the Ottoman Turks, finally becoming a protectorate of the British Empire. Then when Israel was formed, Jordan and Egypt happily stole the West Bank and Gaza Strip and ruled those areas for the next 2 decades. Then the six day war came along and Israel controlled the area.

The area was actually given the known as Judea by the Romans, but was renamed to Palastina by the Emperor Hadrian decades after the birth of Jesus, as Hadrian was tiring of Jewish revolts and decided to rename the area in order to squash Jewish identity with it. Arabs would never name a place Palestine, as they have no "P" sound in their alphabet, and most native Palestinians cannot pronounce the name of their country, calling it "Balestin".

You're welcome for the history lesson.
 
2004-08-17 02:25:19 AM  
bbcrackmonkey:
"Arabs would never name a place Palestine, as they have no "P" sound in their alphabet, and most native Palestinians cannot pronounce the name of their country, calling it "Balestin"."

Actually, no. They call it Fil-lis-tin. So they CAN pronounce the name of their country and can say the letter "P", even though that sound is not an offical "letter" in the Arabic alphabet. The language is fairly adaptable; foreign words that use the letter P or V are written in Arabic the same as "b" and "f", but both with the addition of an additional 2 dots.

You're welcome for the language lesson.
 
2004-08-17 02:39:15 AM  
Nik Hatha/bbcrackmonkey: There was a group of Greeks that lived among the Canaanites, who were known as Philistines.

The Romans named the region Palestine, after the Philistines, when they showed up later in the game and crushed the place.

Palestinians are just Arabs with political and geographic leverage. Israelis are warmongering, intolerant racists who are rapidly fomenting their own brand of "Stoopid Fresh Nazi-Apartheid" (tm).
 
2004-08-17 02:45:13 AM  
abdul, the Romans named it Judea, and called it that for hundreds of years. It was only named Palastina when the Romans got sick of Jewish revolts and tried to crush the Jewish identification with the area. Yes they named it after the Philistines, but the area was never ruled nor dominated by them.

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic about your intolerant racist nazi comment, but just so you know, the Palestinians are extremely tolerant of Jews and are totally averse to ethnic cleansing... yup.

Nik Hatha, thanks for the language lesson. Always useful to know more useless facts :-)
 
2004-08-17 02:49:05 AM  
Hmmm, Americans commenting on Israeli actions and policy;

USA/Israel

Invade and occupy foreign land - check
Holding prisoners without charge - check.
Torture/abuse of prisoners (by whatever definition) - check
Killing of civilians (on purpose or otherwise) - check

Pot.kettle.black?
 
2004-08-17 02:57:01 AM  
prowler8 - Sins of the father, eh? How progressive.
 
2004-08-17 03:31:43 AM  
bbcrackmonkey:
"Nik Hatha, thanks for the language lesson. Always useful to know more useless facts :-)"

Hey, just CORRECTING the bogus information that you passed off as "facts". And now that you're called out as a mo-ron (and, for some reason, you're arrogant to boot) all of a sudden are "useless" to you...useless, but at least correct.

Abdul - Nice try, but a bit obvious, isn't it, troll?
 
2004-08-17 04:02:46 AM  
Nik Hatha, so you're calling me out as a moron, and I'm arrogant? I get it.

For all intents and purposes all these facts we are debating are useless, I was just making a little quip about the futility of it all. I was actually genuinely grateful for you correcting me, as I am never above being corrected, that is until you started flinging ad-hominems around and started talking shiat. *sigh*

I guess I can thank you instead for totally overreacting to my post and interpreting petty insults where there were none, then one-upping my supposed slight against you. Congratulations. You win. Somebody pass out the cookies. My self-esteem has been shattered and my manhood debased, and now I will quietly cry myself to sleep while cursing your superior ability to fling poo at me.
 
2004-08-17 04:29:32 AM  
Sorry about the damage to your manhood, bbcrackmonkey...don't cry too hard, and make mine Oreo cookies-the double cream variety.
 
2004-08-17 04:34:46 AM  
Nik Hatha, an apology would have been ok too, or maybe a "oh my bad, I did get a little out of line because I thought you were insulting me and so I get defensive".

No cookies for you.

Here's a spoon you can eat my ass with

[image from bataviahistoricalsociety.org too old to be available]
 
2004-08-17 04:59:35 AM  
Apology for what? Pointing out that you're an arrogant know-it-all who, in fact, DOESN'T know it all? Keep your spoon-I'm not that kind of guy, not that there's anything wrong with that...
 
2004-08-17 05:42:29 AM  
Scrotar:

"sins of the father"? If you are referring to the original colonisation of the U.S. well, I wasn't - thought hadn't even occurred to me.But now you mention it...........
I was talking about Iraq - the big deserty place with oil etc
 
2004-08-17 08:15:15 AM  
Israelis are mean. (The ones with guns)
 
2004-08-17 09:08:38 AM  
George Foreman is a real nice guy, and a great griller by the way.

Not like most of you farks.
 
2004-08-17 09:46:57 AM  
Israel has nice beaches, why doesn't anyone mention the beaches!
 
2004-08-17 10:25:59 AM  
Did anyone else get hungry reading that article?

Kudos for the Israelis on trying to get them to eat.
 
2004-08-17 10:34:31 AM  
[image from i.a.cnn.net too old to be available]
 
2004-08-17 10:52:22 AM  
 
2004-08-17 12:36:33 PM  
Keep in mind that the 'Palestinians' were never actually thrown out of Israel until after the Arabs attacked in 1948. All the Arab countries had plenty of space to take the refugees in but decided to let them rot in order to foster hatred of the Jews.

Also, Israel is the first country to ever actually propose a Palestinian state. They promised Arafat almost all the land he wanted at Camp David, but he wouldn't take yes for an answer, and walked out. Then he gets celebrated as "standing up against America" or something.

Its a shame that Israel is always being condemned for defending itself. If some punk kid is throwing rocks from the temple mount onto Jews praying at the Western Wall(thats at least 60ft high) and some cop shoots him, the BBC reports it as some innocent kid getting killed. If I were to condemn a society, it would be the one that teaches its children to become martyrs instead of encouraging them to become doctors, lawyers, engineers, scientists, etc.
 
2004-08-17 03:22:16 PM  
Or the Jews could have just stayed out of Palestine... but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
 
2004-08-17 09:30:11 PM  
2004-08-16 05:45:34 PM Yahweh
"The Prisons Service said it would draw on tactics used in hunger strikes by jailed Northern Irish militants in the 1970s and 1980s, such as withholding basic amenities"

And we all know how successful that tactic was...

For those that don't, the IRA/INLA hunger strikers that died became Republican 'saints', it heralded an upsurge in IRA activity and membership, the leader of the hunger-strike (Bobby Sands) got elected to the British parliament a month before he starved to death (a major symbolic and moral boosting victory for the Republican movement), and the British ended up giving in to all their demands.

"Those who don't learn from past mistakes are condemned to repeat them"


I would just advertise heavily - "We are giving them food if they want it" - also, I would make sure that they had food in their cell every day, and then videotape/log giving the food to the prisoners. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. If they want to *KILL THEMSELVES*, I would be OK with that.

I would also point out, if these were Catholics that killed themselves by refusing food, that they probably chose the only way to kill themselves possible where they would still get Prayer For the Sick (Last Rites to those pre-Vatican-II people) before they officially died.

However -- if they did a full-on hunger strike, could they take communion? A *LOT* of it ? If they didn't take communion, could they have the last rites? If they didn't have their last rites, they go straight to hell - and I don't remember any Cardinal or Pope giving them special dispensation to kill themselves.

Does Islam work this way? Can you kill yourself and still go to Heaven if you're not killing "the unfaithful" at the same time? I mean, if you just decide to kill yourself for no other reason than life is sucking, or you're in a Jewish prison because you tried to kill other Semites, and you decide to starve yourself to death, is that considered a Martyr's death, or does it buy you face time with Iblis ?

/confused, but appreciating the irony of Ieue talking with Yahweh on religious issues
 
2004-08-17 11:36:52 PM  
Nik Hatha: Well, let's see, I was only pointing out a few things. I don't recall directly trying to elicit your reaction. Truth be told, I wouldn't have wanted to hear your opinion to begin with. Do you know what troll even means?
 
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