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(NYPost)   New York's governor, who approved a 38-percent pay increase for legislators a few years ago, vetoes a bill to raise the minimum wage by two dollars   (nypost.com) divider line 305
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6642 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Jul 2004 at 1:40 PM (10 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2004-07-30 02:46:28 PM
DrZombie, but it fiscal policy changes tend to take 4-6 years to effect the economy. You know what that means?

/I know that is only 25% true.
 
2004-07-30 02:47:01 PM
Excellent post, WhatPeopleAreReallyThinking.

Do away with the minimum wage altogether. Let the market decide what the proper wage is.

Truth is, I dont think liberals really care what the economic impact of having/not having a minimum wage is. This is just an example of their bleeding heart feeling sorry for the tard working at Taco Bell that doesnt understand what "mild sauce, please" means.
 
2004-07-30 02:47:04 PM
setaanbomb:

Sure, sure, that's all fine and good, but what incentive does the employer have? "Grant various breaks to businesses who come into full compliance blah blah..." just doesn't cut it.

Cuz, see, we're not in the business of rewarding folks who are breaking the law. It's called "tax evasion" and I believe the IRS recommends *jail time* to folks who get caught doing it.

Also, the undocumented workers are often held in somewhat slave-like quality of life conditions, with the employer threatening deportation if they talk/complain.

This being a serious threat to many illegals, because they have family. Perhaps even family that are US citizens, like their children. Threatening one's children is often a good method of coersion.

I still don't see any incentive for a company or individual who is currently breaking U.S. labor and immigration laws, not to mention not paying taxes, to *ever* legitimize their situation.

This isn't Sonny Coreleone and Immobliare we're talking about here. These are tax cheats, and the IRS wants them in jail.
 
2004-07-30 02:47:54 PM
considering the economy has been in the shiatter under every republican president we've had in the 2 1/2 decades I've been alive

* pinch *

You must be dead.
 
2004-07-30 02:48:43 PM
"He said a higher minimum wage could eliminate the eligibility of some families for food stamps and the earned income tax credit in filing taxes."

For many reasons posted here I agree with the governor but I can't believe he really said this. That shiat's funny!
 
2004-07-30 02:48:49 PM
FYI-
Not all liberals are for raising the wage. Then again, maybe I'm the only one.

el_hueso, business degree liberal in the damn mall
 
2004-07-30 02:49:38 PM
For example if you give $10 000 to a millionaire chances are it's just going into the bank, or stocks, which do not effect the economy as much as if it were spent on real capital, ie. products/services.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Possible the must unthoughtful statement on fark, and that included fisherman62 comments.

REAL capital, like rims & shiat?
 
2004-07-30 02:50:17 PM
Raising the minimum wage is pointless and harmful. Not only are very few (other than high school temp workers) actually making minimum wage, but raising the wage to a "living wage" hurts business.

Small scale: If I run a business and I can afford 5 workers at the current minimum wage, if you raise it I can't afford 5 workers any more. Further, if I want to keep my 5 workers, I have to raise my prices. Worse yet, if I don't raise my prices, I'm not going to be able to grow.

Large scale: Prices go up everywhere, thus negating the minimum wage increase. Now my dollar is worth less when I go to spend it. Not only that, but the what about the slighly higher workers that are suddenly just above minimum wage?

The living wage argument is also invalid because you aren't looking at all the factors, you are focusing on ONE factor of many. Raising the minimum wage (which very few workers are paid at) isn't going to solve whatever "living" problem you are trying to fix.
 
2004-07-30 02:51:15 PM
mudcat--
Truth is, I dont think liberals really care what the economic impact of having/not having a minimum wage is. This is just an example of their bleeding heart feeling sorry for the tard working at Taco Bell that doesnt understand what "mild sauce, please" means.

Ok. We'll do away with the minimum wage and do away with all social welfare government subsidies for poor people. The savings will all be consumed by increased police budgets as we try unsuccessfully to keep starving people from torching luxury cars and beating CEOs to death.
 
2004-07-30 02:51:23 PM
jgramlich: The IRS cares about "jail time" like Larry Flynt cares about "God".

This isn't Sonny Coreleone and Immobliare we're talking about here. These are tax cheats, and the IRS wants them in jail.

Yes it is. Few fortunes have been made in this world without corruption, criminal activity or piggy backing on the criminality of others.
 
2004-07-30 02:53:15 PM
PTW16 You are correct, it is not a perfect solution because it spurs inflation and means that another increase in minimum wage will be necessary in another five years or so. But a small ammount of inflation is a good thing (especially in realestate).

Omega Ohm Inflation is not driven by the minimum wage. And unless minimum wage is adjusted upwards from time to time it will lose pace with inflation and no longer generate a livable income.

WhatPeopleAreReallyThinking If people who would work for a minimum wage cannot live in New York City, then where will they live? If they live in places other than New York City then why will they work there? If there are no people who will work for minimum wage in New York City to do things like janatorial work, pumping gas, and flipping burgers... then they will have to pay workers much more than minimum wage to get them to come and work there... causing a much faster growing rate of inflation.
 
2004-07-30 02:53:21 PM
HAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Pablo Roo, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.


"...if you give $10,000 to a millionaire chances are it's just goint intot he bank, or stocks, which do not affect the economy blahblah..."

Because the money that is deposited into a bank, say, never gets loaned out to normal folks trying to, say, buy a house? Or to a small business trying to start up so they can pay employees for that first 90 days where they make no money, or, perhaps to that drug company with a new idea that takes a decade to produce life-saving medications...
 
2004-07-30 02:53:31 PM
This is another topic. But since when do people have the "right" to their own home? I didn't move out of my folks home until I could afford to do it. Now that I'm going back to school and cannot afford my own place I have to move back in with my folks. Not once did I ever consider my own place an individual right that the government should subsidize for me.
 
2004-07-30 02:55:49 PM
Business that pay minimum wage ($10,712 per year) are being subsidized by taxpayers. Why should I have to pay for more food stamps just so a McDonalds can turn a higher profit. A living wage only hurts businesses that are being subsidized by taxpayers.
 
2004-07-30 02:57:26 PM
setaanbomb:

And here I thought I was a cynic.


Last I checked, if the IRS catches you for tax evasion, you're still in big trouble.

And as far as your acusations about few fortunes and whatnot. You are a liar. Period. That's crap and you know it. Not every, not even 10% of businesspeople are criminals. Most businesspeople are people that have chosen to do their own thing, rather than rely on someone else to butter their bread.
 
2004-07-30 02:58:18 PM
Again, without taking a stance one way or the other:

For all you wonderfully rational conservatives out there with your oh-so-endearing ad hominem attacks, let's talk a little about "logic". First of all, I'll say that using the word - or any word carrying an intellectual connotation - does not mean you win. It's a cheap safety net - "haha, they can't refute me, I said I'm LOGICAL! So if they disagree with me, they'll automatically be painting themselves as ILLOGICAL! They can't win! I'm so clever..."

I don't give a rat's ass how many times you tell me how wonderfully sound your argument is, I'm still going to look to see if it actually IS. And all of you spewing your "Why not raise the minimum wage to $20, then we'll ALL be rich!" - if you're as stinking logical as you keep saying you are, you'd know that's crap. Seems to me it would be logical to dispute real-world issues with realistic numbers. There are a lot of systems out there that fail at extremes - ecology is one, and as I'm sure you economics majors know, economics is another. You want to make a rational point? You want "stupid" liberals to actually listen and maybe learn something? Then quit taking asinine cheap shots and make a TRULY coherent argument.

It's the logical thing to do.
 
2004-07-30 02:58:39 PM
Hopefully someone else has already corrected this, but payroll costs and all the associated matching taxes (both federal and state) are fully expense-able by companies. They do NOT pay employees out of after-tax income.

About the only thing that you can not expense are penalties incurred when you don't make the required payments to the government. Tax penalties are paid with after-tax dollars and are not an allowable business expense.

Please complain about factual problems with taxes and wage laws. There are plenty.
 
2004-07-30 02:59:54 PM
Every time you raise the minimum wage more jobs are lost. Most of the people working these jobs are highschools kids who now won't/can't work. When I was in high school I pumped gas at the gas station. I had friends who were ushers at the movie theaters, bag boys at the market etc... We made $2.35hr. Those jobs no longer exist. Teaching kids how to work outside of the home barely exists because the employers can't afford to provide those services/jobs any longer.
 
2004-07-30 03:00:04 PM
Have any of you ever asked your boss for a raise based on cost of living (not employee value, if an employee has value above the minimum they would not make the minimum) and been given 38%?
 
2004-07-30 03:00:20 PM
Pabloo_Roo

Well, that's why I said that I only learned enough economics in college to get the jist that most of my professors were of the opinion that most of it was bullshiat and conving people it was right.

That thought was solidified when a friend who was attending Princeton at the time majoring in economics got a summer internship at Meryll Lynch or someplace and told me the person he was working under basically told him it was all guesswork.

setaanbomb

Through anecdotes from my family and family of friends, and a little historical reading, the economy under Reagan was awful (unless you were really rich), followed by similarly poor performance under Bush Sr. (and btw, that's a period of 12 years, when the republican economics policies should have kicked in with a few years to spare under the republican regime.
 
2004-07-30 03:01:12 PM
Smookyfufu

George Pataki is the devil. Never, ever vote for him.


I second that. The man is sh*t.
 
2004-07-30 03:02:50 PM
jgramlich, I didn't intend to sound racist. But that post had me thinking of the Chappelle skit where he imagined what the economy would be like if they gave all black folks a million dollars.
 
2004-07-30 03:04:15 PM
Code_Archeologist:
PTW16 You are correct, it is not a perfect solution because it spurs inflation and means that another increase in minimum wage will be necessary in another five years or so. But a small ammount of inflation is a good thing (especially in realestate).

But massive inflation is BAD! By creating a "living wage" you can create massive inflation because of the cost of living in specific areas.

Omega Ohm Inflation is not driven by the minimum wage. And unless minimum wage is adjusted upwards from time to time it will lose pace with inflation and no longer generate a livable income.

I agree here. However, a big problem is that either the "living wage" laws are phased so that the minimum wage increase is over a somewhat long period (5 to 8 years) or instant (inflation city).

WhatPeopleAreReallyThinking If people who would work for a minimum wage cannot live in New York City, then where will they live? If they live in places other than New York City then why will they work there? If there are no people who will work for minimum wage in New York City to do things like janatorial work, pumping gas, and flipping burgers... then they will have to pay workers much more than minimum wage to get them to come and work there... causing a much faster growing rate of inflation.

But this is naturally happening in NYC and other places. The low end job wages are going up and the people are moving to the bedroom communities just outside the city (ala New Rochelle outside of NYC) that are cheaper.
 
2004-07-30 03:04:31 PM
If we raised the minimum wage REALLY high, to like 1 million dollars an hour, we could devalue everyone's money so much, that all the rich people will stop being important :P
 
2004-07-30 03:05:27 PM
Tyee job losses after a minimum wage increase are temporary phenomena that are quickly adjusted after one or two quarters. The long term result is that employment goes up after a minimum wage increase.
 
2004-07-30 03:05:28 PM

Unsung_Hero, what exactly are you talking about?

I'll make sure to go easy on you, as you're just a kid.

I think the point of raising the minimum wage is to prevent the entry-level jobs from paying so little that you better off stealing. It also helps to squeeze the bell curve of compensation a little flatter. It also drives inflation, and hurts the middle class the most in the long run.

Incorrect. Raising minimum-wage is meant to increase all workers' standard of living, no matter what job they have.

Of course, it doesn't work that way in this world we call "reality". What will happen is layoffs, layoffs, and more layoffs. Oh, and inflation. Oh, and spiraling unemployment. When every little shop has to pay its workers more and more, they're going to be able to pay fewer people to work. Money doesn't grow on trees, as much as you fairy-tale-econonists wish it did. What does that lead to? The answer is left as an exercise to the reader.

I dunno - how do you ensure the bottom end jobs pay enough that honest work is preferable to crime, not put the burden on the middle class (who generally have a better skill set, etc, etc and should be paid more for what they do)? In other words, how do you bring the top 1% of the economy down to reasonable wealth levels without driving that 1% (and their accumulated wealth) to other economies?

Excuse me?

What do you call "reasonable wealth levels"? Who died and made you God? Why exactly do you think you should be able to tell people what "reasonable wealth" is? Do you have some kind of bone to pick with the concept of freedom?

Also, I love the way you insinuate that "the top 1%" are on some different plane of existence than us, and are therefore not "people" like We are, comrade. The tirade against "The Corporations"(TM) is getting old.

By the way, you keep them from being "driven to other economies" by imprisoning them, of course. You're pretty good at this authoritarian dictator thing already, kid.

At some point, the guys making my entire lifetime's potential earnings everytime they sneeze need to realize their mere existence is ridiculous. The risk-takers and capital investors SHOULD get rewarded, but there is currently no method known to man to restrict those rewards to something reasonable - and no common agreement on what limit would be reasonable if one were enforceable.

Fairy-tale land again. I know you're a young idealist, but that's not how it works. Also, you have no right to tell people that their wealth is "ridiculous", comrade. Why do you want to "restrict" an entrepreneur's "rewards"? That's not how economcs works. That's not how humans work.

But go ahead. Try it. You will see the economy tail-spin to its death like JFK Jr. Your citizens will be furious. You have two choices. Establish a totalitarian dictatorship and Show Them Who's Boss, or lose your head.

Plus, economics isn't a zero sum game. No one has to lose for you to win. People become successful by helping others out, not exploiting them. It's a win-win game for everyone. Poor boy, you're alienated from reality.

Stupid free market... it's almost as bad as a controlled market.

How is it stupid? I'm missing this one. Also, why don't you like freedom? Or is it that you only like certain types of freedom? As in, you want The People to do whatever they want, as long as it doesn't entail exchanging money, goods, services, or helping anyone else? What's so wrong with people doing what they want to do? Even if it involves exchange of worth?

Oh, and think about this. You go to the Sam's General Store and buy a Widget. Who wins and who loses? You lost your money. Sam lost his widget. Or is it that you both benefitted?

 
2004-07-30 03:05:31 PM
Do away with the minimum wage altogether. Let the market decide what the proper wage is.

"The market system isn't perfect. Sometimes market equilibrium will be at a point that will have a negative impact on the economy as a whole. When this happens, government intervention is necessary [paraphrased]" - Introduction to Micro Economics, Week 6 - Government Regulation. This is a basic concept here. Nobody just made this minimum wage sh*t up out of thin air.
 
2004-07-30 03:05:33 PM
Tyee:
Good point, I forgot about those jobs. Soon you'll probably have to bag your own food at McD's.
 
2004-07-30 03:06:08 PM
CheekyMunkey
If you want to be the reasonable and logical voice in here, then please explain why $2 is better then a $3 raise or a $1 raise? Id like to hear where this magical number came from.

Please, before you label me a conservative and don't respond, Ill state for the record that I follow the Austrian economic teachings of Ludwig Von Mises --- not Alan Greenspan.
 
2004-07-30 03:06:20 PM
code_arch
If they can't afford to live there, they won't. They will live outside the city and commute in. Or, as you stated, companies will have to increase the pay for those jobs. AHHH. what do you know. increase in pay without a mandatory minimum wage. Thanks for supporting my point.

Inflation? please explain because I didn't learn that one in my Ec classes.
 
2004-07-30 03:06:51 PM
CheekyMunky, but the example of "why we don't pay everyone $20/hour to make us all rich" is a reasonable good example to teach non-economic minds how the costs of goods & services are closely tied to the wages of workers (especially non-skilled workers).

/not a fan of logic
 
2004-07-30 03:09:36 PM
DrZombie, I'm just guessing here. But you friend who interned at Merrill, who was told it is all "guesswork", was probably in reference to predicting the future. Chairman Greenspan, an economist, was notorious for being lousy at it in the private sector.
 
2004-07-30 03:09:54 PM
I now make about 3x minimum wage. I used to make 3.5x minimum wage...
Every time minimum wage gets increased, I have a harder time keeping my standard of living. And when minimum wage gets increased, do I get a chance to say "Hey boss! minimum wage went up, can you adjust my pay accordingly?"
They'd find that quite the funny joke...
IT is a crappy field to be in if you want to make money.
Time for a marketing job
/two drink minimum
 
2004-07-30 03:09:56 PM
Code_Archeologist
Tyee job losses after a minimum wage increase are temporary phenomena that are quickly adjusted after one or two quarters. The long term result is that employment goes up after a minimum wage increase.

HUH!!??? IFF the minimum wage increase is phased to keep pace with inflation.
 
2004-07-30 03:09:58 PM

caliban_02: Unsung_Hero sounds "intellectual(ly) childishness" because he is a public-schooled child. You can tell from his style.

It's rather easy to tell the approximate age of a person based on their style of writing.

Plus, for what it's worth; as a minimum wage worker myself, I applaud Pataki for doing something right.

 
2004-07-30 03:10:08 PM
ArkAngel is completely wrong.

Asbestos lawsuits are not based on exposure.

They are based on Asbestos related disease, of which a plaintiff needs sufficient medical evidence.

No one is taking a case where you may have been exposed to asbestos once.

ArkAngel....where in the hell did you get that information. It is utterly false.
 
2004-07-30 03:10:14 PM
Increasing wages will raise (all) prices across the board.

Your purchasing power will remain more or less the same.
(A silver dollar in 1900 bought about 8 loaves of bread. The same silver dollar will (more or less) buy the same amount of bread today (ignoring collectors value, just silver value))

But remember going from 12K to 14K per year, the overall percentage you are taxed will go up. That last 2K will get taxed at a higher rate than than the overall % of the first 12.

I think it will overall lower your purchasing power.
 
2004-07-30 03:11:02 PM
If you're interested.

Living Wage Campaigns: An Activists Guide to Organizing a Movement for Economic Justice
Joint publishing of ACORN and Wayne State U. Labor School
 
2004-07-30 03:11:56 PM
the government can fark off when it comes down to telling me how to run my farking business.

Raising the minimum wage makes sense in a communist society where the government tells you how much your lowest employees are worth.

Bottom line, capitalism is supposed to be an open market and employees should be paid what their employer feels that they're worth. If the employee feels that the pay is inadequate, learn a skill that makes you more valuable, change employers, do something other than go crying to uncle sam saying that your boss is mean and won't pay you very much. The fed should not be able to give you a raise.

And yes, I remember my first job at 16 being minimum wage at $4.25/hour. The pay sucked almost as much as the job, and it motivated me to place an ad in the paper to mow yards. For a 16 year old, it is definitely a good money maker along with teaching responsibility
 
2004-07-30 03:12:05 PM
WhatPeopleAreReallyThinking Inflation? please explain because I didn't learn that one in my Ec classes.

Uhm... no... go ask you Mommy and Daddy what inflation was back in the 70's I am sure they can explain it to you. Or better yet pick up your economics book from school and read it a little more carefully this time. Because you are not quite tall enough for this ride.
 
2004-07-30 03:14:28 PM
Code,
Who pumps your gas? Checks your oil for you, cleans your windows.

Who bags your food, and carries it out to the car for you?

Do you remember when these jobs were common? I do and alot more like them.

Temporary phenomena my ass!
 
2004-07-30 03:14:39 PM
bullseye-

A nice suit of mens clothing has always cost about an ounce of gold.
 
2004-07-30 03:16:01 PM
I am all for periodic COL adjustments in minimum wage. What's fair is fair, and it does make some sense to put money into the hands of those most likely to spend it.

Having said that...a $2/hr increase is a big farking increase. 50 cents would have brought welcome relief, and not chased jobs away. Not that I know what I'm talking about. Or you, for that matter.
 
2004-07-30 03:20:10 PM
jgramlich: Many businesspeople have only had the opportunity to conduct their affairs because the criminals were creating the stability the system required.

The two biggest criminals are David Rockefeller and Andrew Carnegie. They're the top of the pyramid. They're still there they just have more names like Exxon, BP, Shell, Aramaco, Petronas, et al.

DrZombie: If personal experience and that of close friends is the means for judgement of macroeconomic historiagraphy then Hitler was Jesus...to a few people. Overall though, the Reagan years were quite strong for wage growth among all the classes. Each tax bracket mobility was higher than ever as many more people moved up than down. Middle class wages were higher than ever. And tax burden shifted drastically more towards the higher wage earners.

Pablo_Roo: My political science teacher said that economics were just like politics and pyschology, none of them were actual sciences, but the sectors pay like they are. He also was an analyst for the Federal Reserve.
 
2004-07-30 03:21:23 PM
Tyee I remember those jobs, you can still get some of those jobs in some suburban Atlanta. And as I understand it you can still get your gas pumped for you in much of the North East. I think those job have more to do with the affluence of an area and the willingness of the consumers to pay a premium for extra service than minimum wage.
 
2004-07-30 03:22:35 PM
Code_Archeologist: Inflation isn't always bad. For people with debt up to their eyebrows inflation might be their best friend.

Labor economists tend to focus less on inflation in the long term. I think this is driven politically though rather than academically.
 
2004-07-30 03:23:44 PM
...who approved a 38-percent pay increase for legislators a few years ago...

I don't suppose that the legislators had anything at all to do with their 38-percent pay increase. Nope, they're innocent -- it's all that darn Pataki guy's fault. And, if he'd vetoed it, they'd probably would have just smacked themselves on the foreheads and said "Of course! What were we thinking????"
 
2004-07-30 03:24:26 PM
The problem with having no minimum wage is that people will end up on benefits. In effect the state then subsidises stingy employees.

The UK has the following minimum wage:
Over 22 years old: 4.50 per hour
18-21 year old: 3.80 per hour

When it was introduced many people said that it would ruin the economy, leading to massive unemployment and an increase in inflation.

Current figures:
Unemployment: UK 4.8% ; US 5.6%
Inflation: UK 1.5% ; US 3.0%
 
2004-07-30 03:24:42 PM
Can anybody bring out case studies of where raising the minimum wage destroyed jobs, or is this just all speculation?

Me thinks I hears the sounds of thousands upon thousands of people talking out of their ass.
 
2004-07-30 03:25:33 PM
2004-07-30 02:41:07 PM BoogerFinger

2004-07-30 02:41:10 PM Demon of the Fall

THE MINIMUM WAGE DOES NOT CREATE FREE MONEY FOR POOR PEOPLE. It comes from somewhere else and has effects on everyone, including the price level.
 
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