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(Arkansas Democrat-Gazette)   Are you a felon who wants a gun? Just tell the gun shop not to run the background check within three days. If they don't, "the law says the purchase must go through"   (nwanews.com ) divider line
    More: Stupid  
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15716 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Jul 2004 at 10:24 AM (12 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2004-07-27 03:53:37 PM  
Actually, being on the record of stealing a pig should fast track you for owning as many guns as you like.

/Think Mohammed Atta ever stole a pig?
 
2004-07-27 03:58:21 PM  
lol...hmmmm still no explination though... wonder why?

Because I'm trying to actually get some work done right now, and am only checking in to this flame every once in a while. farking jackass....

c'mon... im inviting you to dismatle my argument & PROVE im crazy for even thinking the things i say....

When did I say you were crazy? I said you had your head up your ass. Then I said you were a jackass.

Both the legally accepted idea of a "justifiable threat" and what most rational humans would accept as a "justifiable threat" go far beyond some asshat making a sideways comment on a BBS. You goddamned well know that.

You're intentionally manipulating a very simple idea, just to be a pain in the ass. You know what you did, you know you're doing it, so piss off...

If that's not enough for ya', then read HoChiWaWa's last post again. He sums it up plenty well.
 
2004-07-27 04:00:35 PM  
2004-07-27 03:47:04 PM DasWiggy

There are cases where it'a appropriate to draw and shoot as quickly as you can. There are also cases where you should re-evaluate the situation at each step, and as soon as lethal force is no longer justified, you should stop.


I just don't see the need to draw my weapon in a situation where I don't feel my life or someone else's is threatened. And if I feel my life or someone else's is threatened I don't see why I would not shoot immediately to stop.

I'm not going to evaluate if a guy is flinching because he's about to turn around and run or he's about to go for a weapon. If I draw a gun on you and your reaction is anything but to drop your weapon and stand absolutely still you'd be getting bullets in you.

If I don't feel my or anyone else's life is in immediate danger then I don't draw. You're free to get scared and run away. I'd have to have a very clear indication that you intended me bodily harm before I'd draw.
 
2004-07-27 04:04:54 PM  
ghastly, lets say the difference is an assailant claiming to have a gun and an assailant brandishing one.
 
2004-07-27 04:05:01 PM  
TigerSpirit That's cool. It happens, uh, to the best of us! Sometimes in the same thread!
 
2004-07-27 04:08:03 PM  
I say give everybody a gun and allow them to carry it wherever and whenever they want. If some people get killed, so be it, there are too many people in the world already.
 
2004-07-27 04:08:07 PM  
Ghastly Me, as a private citizen. If I draw a firearm it would only be because I thought "shiat, I'm gonna die" and if I think "shiat, I'm gonna die" I'm not going to take time to ask you about your mother and how society failed you and hope you'll break down in tears and stop trying to kill me. I'm just going to shoot you until you fall down and don't get up.

Should I send you a cake when you go to jail for murdering the kid farking around in your woodshed...?

The statistic referenced talked about CRIMES PREVENTED, and then falsely tries to link this to "Justifiable Homicides."

This doesn't just include instances where your life in in danger. What it DOES include is instances where some punk is trying to kick in your door, hears the familiar rack-and-slide of a shotgun, then turns tail.

Yeah- I agree- if you're pulling a gun because you are in a situation where your life is immediately in danger, go ahead and shoot the farker till he stops twitching.

That doesn't mean CRIMES haven't been PREVENTED simply by the DISPLAY of a firearm. This happens FAR more often than the anti-gun propaganda wants you to think, and they intentionally make as little reference to it as possible.

A civilian CAN stop a crime without blowing someone away. It happens quite often. That's all that I'm saying...
 
2004-07-27 04:11:42 PM  
GimmeAnEffingBreak

Actually, being on the record of stealing a pig should fast track you for owning as many guns as you like.

/Think Mohammed Atta ever stole a pig?


I give the "Homeland Defense Idea of the Thread Award."
 
2004-07-27 04:11:44 PM  
Our legal system is there to weed out the truth.
LOL.. LOL LOL ok, i quit.. this is obviously a waste of time...
"people quite often claim self defence in cases of murder, its hardly a new development and is certianly not connected to gun violence in any way."
if you honestly dont think its connected to gun violence now.... how about in your little scenerio where everyone is armed (for "protection" FROM ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE WITH GUNS) we're a violent society by nature, why in the hell would you think letting us carry weapons would change that?
 
2004-07-27 04:11:57 PM  
ghastly, it's pretty simple. You're familiar with the ability, opportunity, and jeopardy standards, right? So if there's ability and jeopardy but no opportunity yet, and opportunity is getting closer and closer to being a reality, it's appropriate to draw your weapon for when there IS opportunity, because if you wait until there is opportunity, it's too late to draw and accurately fire in the time frame you've got left before you die.

Sorry to get all legal on you....
 
2004-07-27 04:19:49 PM  
what does a hypothetical scenario where everyone owns guns have to do with reality? even if there were CCWs everwhere not everyone would own a gun. Also, what part of its not connected to gun violence did you not understand... is there no such thing as a justifiable homicide using a baseball bat or your bare hands even? if there is justifiable homicide then people will try and get off by claiming it was justified, we give them a trial for this and hopefully the truth comes out, your lack of faith in our legal system is irrelevant because its better 10 guilty men walk free than one innocent rot in a cell.
 
2004-07-27 04:23:55 PM  
Great 80's reference, Rottenassdan. Who the hell sang that song?
 
2004-07-27 04:27:13 PM  
Ah, it was Bruce Cockburn. Thanks interweb!
 
2004-07-27 04:31:30 PM  
2004-07-27 04:04:54 PM HoChiWaWa

ghastly, lets say the difference is an assailant claiming to have a gun and an assailant brandishing one.


Well, I wouldn't draw just because a guy claimed to have a gun. I would draw if he made a move as if he was drawing the gun he claimed to have and I would shoot to stop him before he was able to draw it. I wouldn't wait to see if he was going for a cell phone, or to see if he'd stop reaching for his alleged weapon and turn around and run away instead. I'd pop him as soon as I aquired the target. I can't see why you wouldn't in a situation where you felt your life was in immediate danger.

To me drawing your firearm is your last recourse and you don't draw unless you intend to use. There would be no need to use it if I felt I wasn't in immediate danger. If I didn't feel I was in immediate danger there would be no need to draw.

Once you draw you have no more options, not if protecting your own safety is your paramount concern.

If a guy claims he has a firearm but hasn't drawn it you still have plenty of options. If I draw just because someone claims to have a firearm then I've escalated the situation. That person now has no choice but to draw their firearm to protect themselves. Right or wrong side of the law your instinctual obligations are for self preservation.

It's like that story on Fark a few months ago about the little old lady who stopped a carjacker by pulling her handgun and scaring him off. She got a HERO tag when in actuallity, all I saw in that story were a couple of DUMBASSes who only survived because they got lucky.

Carjacker had his gun against her head. He failed to control the situation and she was able to get her gun out of her handbag and put it against his head. That's a dumbass right there. Fortunately he was a criminal dumbass so I'm not going to lose any sleep over the fact that by all rights he should have been killed for letting the situation leave his control.

She managed to get her gun out of her purse and against the head of her attacker. Now that's a bold and gutsy move. Personally, I would have just given the guy the car because I know that if I was the guy with the gun the victim's head would be splattered all over the place the instant it looked like I was about to lose control of the situation. I'm sure my family would deal with the loss of my car much better than they would have with the loss of my life.

Her dumbass moment came when she had her gun against the carjackers head and she said "You better be planning to use your gun because I sure as hell am going to use mine."

What a brilliant piece of Hollywood writing that is. That's going to get a big cheer out of the audience for sure.

In reality, however, that was an increadably stupid thing to do. She is increadably fortunate to have gotten the gun to the carjacker's head. It's unbelievably fortunate that she was able to get more than two syllables of her Dirty Harry speech out before the carjacker spread her brains about the interior of the car.

Both people survived simply by luck, not skill. I just can't understand that kind of stupidity. How can either one of those people not realize how increadably stupid their actions were throughout that entire encounter?

I suppose it's a good thing though. If Hollywood is able to convince everyone that firearms arn't for shooting but for punctuating tough guy speeches maybe there will be a hell of a lot fewer people getting shot. Nobody will need to buy bullets since you only need the gun to make your point. Disagreements will be settled by a panel of judges who determine who has the best tough guy speech.
 
2004-07-27 04:33:52 PM  
DasWiggy "paperforplastic, and nothing you've said proves that CCW makes society LESS safe, either"
um... i think just the idea of a gun totin' soceity combined with the current number of gun-related deaths per year PROVES that it wouldnt be safer. the number of responsible people isnt going to change, just the number holding.... you can rely on statistics your whole life or you can look around you and base your arguments on reality...and anyone who wants to dispute this, come on down to my place and hang out for a week and tell me if you'd feel better knowing everyone around you is armed.
 
2004-07-27 04:34:20 PM  
2004-07-27 04:08:07 PM Lamune_Baba

Should I send you a cake when you go to jail for murdering the kid farking around in your woodshed...?


Well you see, this is the beauty of it. If a kid is farking around in my woodshed I either yell at that kid "get the fark out of my woodshed you little shiat" or I call 911.

Why the hell would I take a firearm and point it at a kid who was only farking around in my woodshed?
 
2004-07-27 04:38:11 PM  
HoChiWaWa - Our legal system is there to weed out the truth.

Awesome.

No offense, that just struck me as being very funny.
 
2004-07-27 04:38:49 PM  
i honestly think we are pretty much on the same page, i think syntax is mucking it up, the bottom line in my eyes is you do what you feel have to do and nothing more.

I will agree never draw a gun without intent to fire it... this to me does not mean you have to fire it when you draw it though, just be ready to in a split second.

i think we can also agree Hollywood has been encouraging stupidity for years
 
2004-07-27 04:39:58 PM  
Scrotar, i know... i worded it retardedly... it does come off funny
 
2004-07-27 04:40:59 PM  
paperforplastic accept for the fact that the numbers show the complete opisite right?
 
2004-07-27 04:43:09 PM  
doh... except

long day
 
2004-07-27 04:43:17 PM  
paperforplastic, the VAST majority of people killed with guns each year in the US are deliberate suicides, by more than a 2:1 margin. You got some kind of problem with the right to die?

I've offered arguments based upon verifiable facts. You offer the argumeny of "I'm skeered!!!"

Somehow, I can't take you too seriously now, since you've gone out of your way to annihilate any shred of credibility you might have had.
 
2004-07-27 04:43:34 PM  
" even if there were CCWs everwhere not everyone would own a gun".... so, now its ok to carry a gun now.... so MORE people start doing it.... the more people start doing something, the more other people start doing it too... ok, not EVERY SINGLE PERSON would be armed... but, im sure if CCWs was allowed in nyc..... i dont even want to think about it. people do it anyways, cant image if it was actually allowed.
 
2004-07-27 04:45:17 PM  
2004-07-27 04:38:49 PM HoChiWaWa

i honestly think we are pretty much on the same page, i think syntax is mucking it up


Wouldn't be the first time that's happened.
 
2004-07-27 04:47:31 PM  
"the more people start doing something, the more other people start doing it too"

why isn't this proven in the states that have had CCWs for a long time?... perhaps because you pulled it out of your ass?
 
2004-07-27 04:48:46 PM  
2004-07-27 04:43:17 PM DasWiggy

paperforplastic, the VAST majority of people killed with guns each year in the US are deliberate suicides, by more than a 2:1 margin. You got some kind of problem with the right to die?


The only problem I have with the right to die is not enough people are exercising it.
 
2004-07-27 04:51:22 PM  
Can anyone recommend some revolvers to look at? I farkin LOVE the looks of the S&W 625 .45APC but this will be my first firearm and I'm not sure if it's the best way to go...and ammo isn't all that cheap. That Walther P22 looks pretty slick, but for some reason i'm more drawn to revolvers. Any help would be appreciated !
 
2004-07-27 04:52:29 PM  
yeah DasWiggy... "I'm skeered!!!" of retards with guns.... but, obviously not THAT scared. seeing as i dont carry one... i think its the people who carry guns that are most scared... must be scary down in virginia and in maryland!
 
2004-07-27 04:55:20 PM  
what makes you think someone has to be scared to protect themselves from a possibility, ever been a boyscout? be prepared motherfarker

i hate the assumption that guns = fear, if noone carried guns the deterance factor of the CCW would be lost... someone's gotta do it
 
2004-07-27 04:56:12 PM  
Bruce Cockburn, Robert_the_Large
 
2004-07-27 04:56:24 PM  
oh... and its nearly impossible to get a CCW here in MD if i remember correctly
 
2004-07-27 05:00:37 PM  
DasWiggy
Given that CCW doesn't INCREASE violent crime, what possible excuse is there to not allow it?


Just because something isn't necessarily bad doesn't mean we must do it. For example: you could say that "We know that checkpoints at all state borders and major city intersections won't INCREASE terrorism, so what possible excuse is there not to allow it?"

I am anti-gun. Guns scare me. People keep saying that a knife or a baseball bat is more dangerous than a gun but that is bullshiat. A knife is very dangerous. So is a bat. But with a gun you can put someone in mortal peril from 20 or more yards away. If a guy 20 yards away pulls a knife and runs towards you, you have time to react. You can protect yourself by running and/or yelling for help. If that same guy pulls a gun you are instantly in mortal peril.

I'm not saying that in every situation a gun is more deadly than a knife. However there are scenarios where a gun is much more dangerous than a knife but there are no scenarios where a gun is that much less dangerous than a knife.
 
2004-07-27 05:03:57 PM  
jeffy jeff, thats a half baked comparison... one is allowing people a freedom and one is bordering on takeing one away
 
2004-07-27 05:07:06 PM  
why can't people who dislike guns be content to not own them rather than project their fear onto me and request my freedoms be restricted?
 
2004-07-27 05:15:30 PM  
"why can't people who dislike guns be content to not own them rather than project their fear onto me and request my freedoms be restricted?"
im guessing that you dont actually know anyone that has been killed by a gun.
 
2004-07-27 05:21:06 PM  
paperforplastic I have known plenty of people who were killed by cars. Yet I own one and feel no compunction to restrict the rights of others to do so as well.

BTW Ever dig to find out how many anti-gunners either have guns, or have bodyguards with guns? Sobering, the hypocrisy.
 
2004-07-27 05:23:22 PM  
if you don't like the freedoms this country entitles its citizens farking move, this country was built on these freedoms and i'll not tolerate you giving them away.
 
2004-07-27 05:25:57 PM  
HoChiWaWa
why can't people who dislike guns be content to not own them rather than project their fear onto me and request my freedoms be restricted?


Uh... because some people believe that more guns means more gun violence. You may find that hard to believe. But as a Canadian (living in the US for 5 years now) I can assure you that a nation where guns are few and far between can be a relatively safe, happy place to live.

For the record, I grew up with rifles for varmint control (hollow point .22s are a very humane way to kill groundhogs). Guns have their place. I just don't believe that city dwellers should carry guns.

Constitutional arguments aside, of course. The Constitution is a great thing. The gun bit is just IMHO an anachronism.
 
2004-07-27 05:26:52 PM  
whatever... you like guns.. i dont... im tired of this cycle.
btw, all those people that were killed by cars... accidental, or on purpose?
 
2004-07-27 05:29:09 PM  
paperforplastic writes:


im guessing that you dont actually know anyone that has been killed by a gun.


Um, news flash. The gun doesn't shoot itself, there is a _person_ who decides if, and how, to use it. If they were murdered, they were murdered _by a person_, and _with_ a gun. The deed is the person's, not the object's.

It gets said so often it's a danger of being a cliche', but the gun didn't kill anyone. People are so damn touchy about "Gosh, we can't make this criminal _feel bad_ so we'll say the gun did it". Well, dammit, the criminal did it, and they should feel bad. My guns aren't a danger to anyone, so don't lump me and my guns in with the farking criminals.
 
2004-07-27 05:30:46 PM  
believing it doesn't make it true, violence exists seperate from guns.

i don't blame typos on my keyboard.
 
2004-07-27 05:32:36 PM  
I can assure you that a nation where guns are few and far between can be a relatively safe, happy place to live.

And, honestly, so is most of America. The media's constant over-hyping of the number of crimes in this country give a very unfair image of life in general.

Hell, even the biggest majority of the "violent crime" is nothing more than criminals fighting amongst themselves. Gangbangers, drug dealers, inner-city street trash. Truely random violence is far more rare, and happen far less often than the media wants you to think.

Most people, even those LIVING in the "bad neighborhoods" do not walk around in fear. That's reserved for the tourists... :)
 
2004-07-27 05:33:56 PM  
Paperfor plastic-werd that. Your perspective sure changes when you have someone close to you offed by a gun.
Sounds something like: POW-FLIP!

Kythwhatever-I TRIPLE DOG DARE YOU TO FIND WHERE IN THIS THREAD I HAVE SAID THAT PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO CARRY ARMS.

What I said was a direct farking quote from the farking Constifarkingtution. People have the right to bear arms in order to secure the people against the government. NOT BUNNIES. NOT WHINOS WHO WANT A DOLLAH, BROTHA. BUT THE STATE.

Oh, and um...just another guess..should our military RISE UP against the masses, including you rifle/shotgun/handgun bearing badass mofos, you'd be screwed. So what's the point? So you can kill one military person for every 1000 citizens they take out? Don't forget our State has nukes. How u gonna defend against that?

To recap: People have right to own firearms in order to secure a free state. Your private, citizen owned firearms are slingshots to our current military and police forces. Thus we can reasonably deduce the following: chicken.
 
2004-07-27 05:36:16 PM  
Jeffy Jeff

But as a Canadian (living in the US for 5 years now) I can assure you that a nation where guns are few and far between can be a relatively safe, happy place to live.


You need to read futher up in the thread when one your Canadians fellows bragged that Canada has more guns per capita than the US. So, which is true? And if Canada has more guns, why don't they have more crime.

Violence is a big problem in the US society. Taking away the tool for that violent expression will not solve, what at heart, is a inherint problem with our collective society.
 
2004-07-27 05:38:17 PM  
HoChiWaWa
what makes you think someone has to be scared to protect themselves from a possibility, ever been a boyscout? be prepared motherfarker

I believe the simple fact of having a handgun increases your chance of using it.

I once babysat a family who had two (!) loaded handguns hanging on their bedposts, just "to be prepared." The kids could go in and grab the guns if they wanted to. Fortunately, nothing ever happened...but those are the kind of people I'm afraid of. My neighbors.

Every day, people post on here about "the idiocy of the average American," yet when he has a gun, all of a sudden, he's exercising his rights? What about the MORANS?
 
2004-07-27 05:38:19 PM  
why do people think the military is willing to slaughter its own people and destroy its own cities.... the most adament people i know when it comes to revolution to protect freedom are farking in the military.
 
2004-07-27 05:38:47 PM  
2004-07-27 05:00:37 PM Jeffy Jeff

I am anti-gun. Guns scare me. People keep saying that a knife or a baseball bat is more dangerous than a gun but that is bullshiat. A knife is very dangerous. So is a bat. But with a gun you can put someone in mortal peril from 20 or more yards away. If a guy 20 yards away pulls a knife and runs towards you, you have time to react. You can protect yourself by running and/or yelling for help. If that same guy pulls a gun you are instantly in mortal peril.


You know, to be honest, at 20 yards your chances of escaping unharmed are pretty damned good. Most criminals have absolutely no formal firearm training and likely won't be able to hit a moving target. Even at close range you'd be surprised how many of them get the shiat kicked out of them because they do something stupid like leave the safety on or forget to charge the weapon.

To be honest, I'd be more worried about the loudmouth who uses his firearm to debate for him. I actually knew a guy from Florida who bragged about getting into an argument with a guy and winning it by flashing his handgun in it's holster. Those are exactly the kind of people I think should be prohibbited from owning, much less carrying firearms.

Now like I said before. I'm for gun ownership. I don't own any firearms myself currently because I don't have any need for any. I think anyone who can demonstrate they can safely store, maintain, and operate a firearm, is mentally stable, and has no criminal record should be allowed to own a fire arm. I don't like the idea of everyone who owns a firearm being allowed to carry it concealed.

Now this is purely a cultural thing. I'm Canadian, not American. Our culture, while similar in many ways is also very very different. Yes there are bad people in Canada who will do me bodily harm and some of them are even carrying illegal firearms. I'm still not going to carry a firearm. There are other ways in which I can "be prepaired" without having to submit myself to an armed society. To me there's a difference between being prepaired and being paranoid.

It is not beyond the realm of possibility that a catastrophic flood will cause Lake Ontario to swell up and swallow my home. The probability of that happening is very remote indeed. It may be "being prepaired" to sleep with my family in a Ark in the backyard, but it's not a reasonable preparation.

Likewise I may enounter bad people intent upon doing me harm on my way to the corner store. The probability, even given that I do live in the "bad part" of Hamilton, is still pretty slim. I don't think the likelyhood of my being assaulted with grevious bodily harm is high enough for me to justify carrying a conceiled weapon. I'm not unprepaired to encounter violence. I'm well rehearsed in the ancient art of "here is my wallet" which, should the need ever arise, will be my first line of defence in the case of an attack. The meagre contents of my wallet are worth much less than a human life, even the life of a lowly mugger, and most definetly a life as grand and wonderful such as my own. There is nothing in my wallet to justify the taking of another life or the risk of my own in defence.

Now in the highly unlikely event that the wallet alone isn't enough to satisfy my attacker I will have to rely on my meaty meat fists, martial arts training, and best of all my mighty Gimp Stick to further defend myself from unwanted molestation. I'm a very big guy and quite confident in my ability to defend myself escpecially since, this being Canada, my chances that my mugger will be armed with a firearm are pretty damned rare.

So as you can see, I have more to lose by living in an armed society than I have to gain.

For Americans, I don't know. Different country, different culture. I do watch your television and I notice that it portrays your country as being a sort of seedy, dark, and dangerous underworld populated by drug crazed non-white people and italians who wish to do you grevious bodily harm. I don't know if that's accurate or not as I've spend very little time in your country. I've spent far more time in the middle east, europe, and asia than I have in the country of my closest neighbour which is rather odd when you think about it. I was in Long Island last year though and I was amazed at how nice and friendly everyone was and at how very safe and secure it seemed there but perhaps Long Island is not typical of the rest of the United States.

For whatever reason, a great many Americans seem to genuinely feel they have a need to not only own firearms but to carry them about their person concealed. Your call, your country. Just please don't shoot me when I come down to visit and please don't bring them into my country to shoot at us when you come up here.

Otherwise go nuts. Have fun.
 
2004-07-27 05:38:59 PM  
Cars were not solely designed to maim/kill people. They have other functions. Guns don't take you to work, and you can't screw your girlfriend in the back of one. Guns have one function, and that is to maim/kill things. And don't say "ooo...a gun is meant to prevent things from getting maimed/killed." A statement like that is like saying Nukes were invented to prevent nukes. Sheese.
 
2004-07-27 05:39:50 PM  
paperforplastic Don't you "whatever" these people. One was family, rest friends and acquaintances. One was suicide, rest accidents.
 
2004-07-27 05:42:46 PM  
ok.. ok.. youre right.. guns are GREAT. i love guns... theyve never caused any problems in this country. what was i thinking. guns are the best!
 
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