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(Chicago Breaking News)   Saudi's pissed about new dress code for female service members.   (chicagotribune.com) divider line 205
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5549 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Jan 2002 at 9:52 AM (12 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2002-01-24 03:57:16 PM
BenJeremy: I don't find references to homosexuality offensive, I find people who judge others by looks alone, and label them accordingly offensive, and that is what you are doing. You can rationalize your behavior all you want, but it doesn't change it from being inappropriate. Say whatever you want to make yourself feel better about yourself and your behavior, you are only fooling yourself, not others.
 
2002-01-24 04:07:36 PM
It's official!!! This thread has now spun hopelessly out of control....

EJECT!!! EJECT!!!

*(Wow...cool use of the jet fighter pun)*
 
2002-01-24 04:07:49 PM
Bin_smokin 1st, thx for the compliment, I usually don't come into the threads..to messy.

From what I saw from the nightline or whatever it was, was that the men on base didn't have the special restrictions that she was forced into obeying.

From what I got, she was forced to wear the garb of the host country (religious wear), while her male sounterparts were not allowed to wear the clothing of the hosts.
She wasn't muslim and didn't want to wear muslim clothing as a christian (I don't think the religious basis of her argument is neccessary). The fact is that there was a double standard and while the saudis may enjoy subjegating they're women, we have an obligation to not join them.

Yes this could have come at a better time in refference to US/Saudi relations, but I don't think I want to join those people in their stone age thinking.

I usually whine about people that don't offer solutions, but
I don't have a simple solution to this one. I just offer the opinion that we should respect the rights of our personell, regardless of gender.
 
2002-01-24 04:10:33 PM
BenJeremy walks into bar.

BenJeremy: Bartender, give me 10 beers.
Bartender: 10 beers? What's the occasion?
BenJeremy: I just had my first blow job!
Bartender: Hey, congratulations! In that case, let my buy you one on the house.
BenJeremy: No thanks. If 10 won't get the taste out, nothing will.
 
2002-01-24 04:11:22 PM
Bin_smoking: Are you BenJeremy's brother? I'm critical of folks labeling and judging people on looks alone. I read your post, because in your opinion she looks like a man you call her a dyke! What gives you the right! Why don't you read what you write before you criticize my reading and comprehension.
 
2002-01-24 04:19:50 PM
OK, poopypants.... you promised you weren't going to tell that story :)

Oh, and 3horn, from what I've seen of the gay Marine porno stars (yeah, I've seen their pics), they probably wouldn't set off too many gaydars.

I'm not super buff... just in decent shape. Who knows... maybe I do have the look - I have been hit on by men. In a wierd way it's a bit flattering, but I will admit it did catch me off guard the first time it happened (maybe I should stop hanging out at 3horn's bar... heh heh)
 
2002-01-24 04:24:16 PM
BenJeremy, in my state of being pissed of, I muddied my train of thought. "I" object to the word dyke. I find it a distasteful word used by those who lack vocabulary and imagination. It's a label. It pisses me off to be labeled and I strive not to do so to others. Therefore I withdraw the statement that you're an asshole, all evidence to the contrary. The entire mind set of the Arab nations toward women pisses me off. It stems from a belief that a dangling piece of flesh between a man's thighs confers superiority over women. What bullshiat! I admire McSally and have to believe it pissed her off as well. It takes a stronger person to say "Fucl< you, I'm not going for this bullshiat!" and buck the system than to meekly don your black sack. I could give a flying shiat if she's gay or not.
That comes under the heading of "Not My Farking Business", and has nothing to do with her stance on wearing a bhurka.
Stinkbug: I can reccomend a fantastic cosmetic surgeon who can give you your own tits so you won't have to ask to see mine.
By the way, they're spectacular.
 
2002-01-24 04:26:16 PM
Evil Camel: Close, "Eject" or "Bail Out" (in the case of non-ejection seat equipped aircraft) is always given as a 3 word command, i.e "eject, eject, eject". But hey, unless you've had it drilled into your head, it's not likely something you'd know. And it was pretty appropriate.

3Horn
 
2002-01-24 04:31:50 PM
3HORN, thanks for the heads up. Being an Army guy, we don't really worry about that too much. But "Gas, Gas, Gas" is another story.

Also potentially appropriate I might add....lol.
 
2002-01-24 04:39:11 PM
Bobbie: I didn't label her a DYKE. That would be a baseless assumption. What i did do is say that SHE LOOKS LIKE ONE. And based on my previous stetement:

note: I got this criteria from one of my bisexual friends who has a great sense of humor.

Bin Smokin's (and his Bi friend Keri's) Dyke Criteria:

A lesbian who looks like a man.

And since she looks like a man, she can look like a dyke.

That statement is correct, and it is A MATTER OF OPINION. if you don't think that she looks like one then good for you.

And I do believe that i have stated on numerous occasions that she is a good woman that has accomplished lots and that has no baring on her appearance. So I have not judged her on her appearance either.

Maybe a lesson in the English language would help your little reading problem.
 
2002-01-24 04:44:28 PM
Camel: lol

Doofus: Your not doing me any favors here.

Bin Smokins Turn Ons:

Tall Women in good shape
Blonds
Long legs
Spectacular breasts
Intellect
Older Women with the above qualities

I have 3.25 hours of work left and a vivid imagination. your killin me here.
 
2002-01-24 04:50:06 PM
"There must be no exceptions in enforcing the Islamic dress code in Saudi streets. No one of any nationality is exempt in the eyes of religion," he said.

So in your eyes she's going to go the hell. What's your point?

The problem is that there is no tolerance. A lot of people (and not just over there!) can't accept the fact that people believe different things. They think everyone MUST conform the ideals they have.
 
2002-01-24 04:57:07 PM
Bobbie: "What gives you the right!"

According to McSally and your US constitution, I have the right to say whatever the fark i think about anything, whenever and where ever i want.
 
2002-01-24 04:58:51 PM
I'm bailing folks, but Bin_Smokin, please have me paged if Doofus ends up caving to the

pressure and posts her .

Mucho Gracias!
 
2002-01-24 05:01:21 PM
The E_nazgul assimilates Katmbcs.

yum
 
2002-01-24 05:04:33 PM
I found this whole rantwar amusing, and not to take sides or anything, but Bin_smokin, some states in the US have sexual harrassment laws...calling someone a dyke would fall under that if it made them uncomfortable.
 
2002-01-24 05:08:19 PM
I apologize for titilating your libido Bin_smokin.
I agree that you have the right to offer up your opinion whenever and wherever you damned well please. I do!
Kudos to Sally tho for telling them to shove their farking bhurkas up their sanctimonious asses!
Uh...by the by...the swelling will go down eventually...
 
2002-01-24 05:14:30 PM
Hey Doofus, sorry, that was uncalled for.
I think you're allright and I do agree
with everything you say and stand for.
Rock on.
 
2002-01-24 05:17:28 PM
huh huh...she said titilate.....huh huh huh.

OK. I'll really leave now.

(You're welcome)
 
2002-01-24 05:19:29 PM
Norstrin: I am aware of that. It isn't like I go around calling people names. I started out defending a statement made by someone else and it quickly got blown our of proportion. I have just been sitting back defending my previous statements because some people apparently can't read properly. Read my posts and you can get a play by play on how this got so far out of control.
 
2002-01-24 05:31:39 PM
Doofus: "Uh...by the by...the swelling will go down eventually..."

Yeah it shouldn't be a problem. I'll just take a quick walk around the office. (at the risk of sounding sexist) There are not that many good looking women in my profession and none of them work here.

As for McSally: I do admire the stance she has taken (takes a lot of gutz but she has already proven that she has plenty to spare) but I still don't think that it is right. I firmly believe that while you are a guest (and the americans are guests.) in a foreign country you should respect that countries laws, especially when you are in a representative role. Now I don't know if we actually came to a consensus as to whether or not this is actually law in Saudi Arabia (but this should be the only point being argued), if it isn't then Good for her. If not then she should abide by Saudi Arabia's Laws and toss on the bedspread (or whatever it is).
 
Rei
2002-01-24 05:55:41 PM
Oh, BTW, here's an article I saw, just in case it doesn't make Fark:

Red Army troops raped even Russian women as they freed them from camps

Very, very disturbing. Give it a read. The author is a famous, prize-winning historian who, during the course of investegating to write the book, had his own views of human nature change. He's now convinced that "... if there is a lack of army discipline, most men with a weapon, dehumanised by living through two or three years of war, do become potential rapists".

Oh, btw, to all of you complaining about the use of the word "dyke" - I think you're the only ones offended by it ;) We call each other dykes; we could care less if you do also. The word is being reclaimed. Oh, here's another term you might like: LUG (Lesbian Until Graduation) - a straight/bi high school girl who is a "lesbian" because it's popular or cute to be one, then drop the pretense when they get older and at least some of their male peers grow up.
 
2002-01-24 05:57:46 PM
So, if they have the stick-wielding religious police wandering the streets in Riyadh, looking to enforce the "dress code", maybe the Army should send over some American women who are experts at kendo.

*whap*
 
2002-01-24 05:58:57 PM
are you a lesbian Rei??
 
2002-01-24 06:01:25 PM
You got hairy armpits Rei?
 
2002-01-24 06:01:57 PM
Why didn't we take land in Iraq? Wouldn't it make just as good a base as anywhere else? Take it close to the Saudi border and you've got all the benefits with none of the stupid rules. Actually, put it right in the corner of Iraq near Kuwait...

And isn't Israel just about as close to this area as SA?

Re: Religious Beliefs

Wearing a turban would be against my religious beliefs, in that it signifies something I don't believe in. I don't care overly much about it because it religion and by defintion, stupid, but it is against my beliefs.

Now if the garment in question was a simple hat, or such, I might feel inclined to go along with it. But if I was this woman and they insisted that I wear a head to toe body covering I could barely see out of, I think I'd take offense.

Especially since she's there as part of the US defense of SA from Iraq. As someone pointed out, she can pilot a jet so complex many of those retards couldn't understand it, yet she can't drive a car.

I think we should give them the choice, either have our protection, or let us step back completely and let Saddam (or the next guy like him) roll in here and destroy you. And if you take the protection you can pick if 1) Our citizens can dress like they wish in SA or 2) SA citizens must dress the way we wish in the USA.

They wouldn't accept the lack of protection and either of the other choices is a win for us. No religious fundamentalists would enter the US, or we'd be past their stupid dress code rules. win-win.
 
2002-01-24 06:05:45 PM
Gee Rei, that was depressing. I don't know about the link to discipline and war experience. The Japanese were very disciplined, and they raped thoussands of Chinese and Koreans, only they did it in a very efficient manner. I may be wrong here, but it seems the Serbs started raping every woman in site as soon as their little war started. The common link I see is that they were taught to hate and dehumanize their enemies prior to their wars. And the Russians had good reason to hate the Germans. Maybe raping all those Germans taught them to dehumanize women in general, and then they moved on to raping their allies. I think I need a shower now.
 
2002-01-24 06:17:14 PM
Here, here, WNight!
And Camel, I don't cave.
 
Rei
2002-01-24 07:00:30 PM
Bin_Smokin:

I'm bi. Close enough. ;)

Placer:

First off, you're referring to "The Rape of Nanking", as it was called (due to a book from a Chinese-ancestry journalist who supposedly found an old diary and had it translated by other people since she couldn't read it - there are a number of glaring errors in it (the issue with photographs is as sloppy as creationism research), however, and it reads more like a spy thriller than a diary; you'd do better to look at historical works that actually did documented research). It was actually the 4th massacre at Nanking in recent history - every time the city traded hands, there was a slaughter, and it was, each time, one of the worst atrocities committed by the conquering forces of the time. Probably just a coincidence. "Rape" is somewhat of a misnomer there, because while there were a large number of rapes, the biggest elements were the scale of the slaughter of civilians, and even by the war-crimes trial estimates, they were about 10 times as common. I'll get into the varying numbers that have gone around and their validity if you'd like.

Anyways, the problem with the occupying forces was, in fact, that they *weren't* very disciplined while they were there, and their upper-level commanders made little effort to keep them that way. The soldiers were even egged on with challenges as to how many each group could kill. The defeated Nationalist army largely changed into civilian clothes to escape being killed. Some of them continued to attack the Japanese occupiers. The Japanese responded by taking entire villages that were suspect and killing them - however, this was not generally done in any organized fashion; the 56 battalions involved conducted the acts, which they referred to as "annhiliating" the army and "executing prisoners", mostly independantly, as a "cleanup" operation. In fact, even at the war crimes trials - trials which tend to attempt to convict high ranking officers - there was only one fairly high ranking officer (of the 4 defendants) charged.

But, this is *really* sidetracked from the original article. In short, while the Japanese army as a whole was very regimented and had a good chain of command, there was very little supervision going on in mainland China as a whole - Chinese were getting killed, and the Japanese officers kept it that way. Just having a chain of command doesn't mean that your army is under control - the Soviets were a perfect example of that. Late in the war, they met military goals quite well - but their troops committed numerous atrocities in the process, and their higher-level commanders did just what the Japanese did in China - didn't care what they did, and didn't attempt to supervise, because things were going their way. As a side note, it's the atrocities of the Soviets that drove so many refugees into Dresden ahead of the red army, where they shortly after were firebombed and then straffed to death by the British.

The clear point of the article I posted was that it doesn't take an order for troops to rape. It takes a blind eye, a couple years of war, and they'll do it on their own.
 
Rei
2002-01-24 07:05:07 PM
Placer:

Oh, and when it comes to the Serbs, do you know how long those people had been fighting? They viewed what they were doing as "revenge". At least they generally only raped their sworn enemies' civilians...

*shudder*.

And back to Afghanistan, where the locals known all about this...
 
Rei
2002-01-24 07:11:07 PM
And don't think americans are immune.

We know what happened when we became an occupying force.

Or do you?
Any clue how many *reported* rapes there were in Okinawa shortly after the war by US GIs? Reported, to an *occupying force*?

There's no real shock that incidents such as the 1995 rape of a 12-year-old schoolgirl there got so many angry protesters - many of which were family members of earlier victims.

Still, we do have a much better record in that field than most countries. And I really hope it stays that way.
 
2002-01-24 07:15:42 PM
3horn:...my buddies were stuck with over-syruped Mountain Dew.

Abu-Dew (as we called it on the Indy) is THE MOST GOD-AWFUL SHIAT every canned and marketed as a soft drink. For those not in the know, it doesn't even taste like Mountain Dew. In fact, it's too horrible to describe.

Placer: The Japanese were very disciplined, and they raped thousands of Chinese and Koreans, only they did it in a very efficient manner.

Not really. Read Iris Chang's Rape of Nanking for details. It was more like a weeks-long orgy of truly disgusting shiat- forcing men and women into intercourse with their sons and daughters, beheading contests (first one to one hundred wins!), etc.

As far as the dehumanizing thing goes, I (and Chang) can partially agree. The common Japanese soldier before and during WWII was treated like a piece of shiat- a part of Chang's book describes an officer slapping his men until his hands were bloody, among other things. The common soldier, essentially, was dehumanized.

After his dehumanization, the soldier is then handed a rifle and told that his enemy, the Chinese, are even bigger pieces of shiat than he is. Chaos ensues.

The point being is that the soldier is dehumanized first, through extended abuse, combat, etc. After that, dehumanizing his enemies is easy.
 
2002-01-24 07:31:52 PM
Rei:

"First off, you're referring to "The Rape of Nanking", "

Well, as far as the efficient raping goes, I was thinking more more about the Korean comfort women who were organized into camps for the Japanese soldiers' pleasures. I'm familiar with the Chinese attrocities, but this is more from my in-laws who spent their childhood running from the Japanese all across China. The stories of soldiers throwing babies in the air and catching them with their bayonets tends to stick in my memory. I know it wasn't just in Nanking.

"Oh, and when it comes to the Serbs, do you know how long those people had been fighting? They viewed what they were doing as "revenge". "

No, I don't, but I know those people have long memories. I guess as an American with ancestory from just about everywhere, I have a hard time understanding that mentality. I would never want to transfer my anger (for Sep. 11) to any of my children.
 
2002-01-24 07:41:16 PM
There's no real shock that incidents such as the 1995 rape of a 12-year-old schoolgirl there got so many angry protesters - many of which were family members of earlier victims.

And that's not even the most recent incident.

The more recent rapes (as opposed to the 'occupation' rapes) are more of a drunken scumbag issue than a military issue. Still, it reflects poorly on me and on my brothers and sisters- and it makes awkward dinner conversation with my Japanese in-laws.

I will always be amongst the first to cheer when they strip these sacks of shiat of their uniforms and toss them in a Japanese prison. And the Japanese know how to run a prison, unlike their American counterparts. No parole for you, Yankee...
 
2002-01-24 07:46:46 PM
Rei: Bi...thats perfect. The best night I've ever had was with a Bi chick. She was especially awsome because the second best night I have ever had was with 2. I tend to get along well with lesbians, gays and bisexual people (although you wouldn't know it from this thread) because most of them have awsome personalities and wicked senses of humor. Have a good night.

PS: You know as much useless crap as I do. Maybe more.
 
2002-01-24 07:46:51 PM
Skwidd:

"As far as the dehumanizing thing goes, I (and Chang) can partially agree. The common Japanese soldier before and during WWII was treated like a piece of shiat- a part of Chang's book describes an officer slapping his men until his hands were bloody, among other things. The common soldier, essentially, was dehumanized."

I wasn't familiar with that, but I've read that the Japanese children were taught in school to despise the Chinese, making them very effective as they grew into soldiers. This seems to be happenning again in the West Bank and Gaza, where four-year old children are encouraged to become Jew-killing martyrs in Hamas-sponsored schools.
 
2002-01-24 08:03:05 PM
Sigh: so many comments, so little time....

Since I'm out of work, I can't justify upgrading from my dial-up account, and I really, really don't want to go back and take the time to cut and paste and quote individual posters. Sorry 'bout that. All of the following is, of course, my not-so humble opinion.

1. I have lived in a very gay/lesbian-friendly part of Houston, TX (the Montrose) for quite a few years and have several lesbian friends (I am 100% hetro, don't plan to change, but I don't dis my gay/les friends and don't try to convert them!) and I can assure the doubters that many lesbians are quite beautiful - Baywatch standards, ok?
2. I consider LTC McSally to be a very brave person and at the same time, a very dumb person. This will not look good on her next OER (Officer Evaluation Report) and I guarentee that she'll be looking for a job flying passenger jets within the next five years. The military does not like officers getting into politics!
3. ....

Ah, I had some other things to say about energy policies, the Saudi goverment, et al, but I'm spending more time correcting typos than I am thinking, so I think that I'm gonna hit the rack.
 
2002-01-24 08:06:44 PM
I wasn't familiar with that, but I've read that the Japanese children were taught in school to despise the Chinese, making them very effective as they grew into soldiers.

I read that, too.

Most Japanese people who were alive at that time are reluctant to speak of it. My wife's father was about six at the time of Pearl Harbor, and he remembers some of the 'school conditioning' about the superiority of the Japanese race. He speaks of it without guilt- he was, after all, too young to really comprehend.

Her grandfather, however, is a different story. He died a year ago, but he likened the end of Japanese Imperialism to waking up from a dream- one day, you wake up and discover the Emperor isn't really a god and the theory of Japanese superiority was just a myth.

I miss the old guy. He was a hoot- drank like a fish and didn't mind talking. Also, he didn't seem to mind the fact that his grand-daughter was marrying an American, unlike some of his more nationalistic offspring.
 
2002-01-24 08:07:06 PM
It's called Geopolitics, but MacMahan is the only author that I can think of right now.
 
2002-01-24 08:26:16 PM
Nothing really intelligent to add, but is that picture in the article really of Martha McSally or is it matthew Broderick from Biloxi Blues?

You decide
 
2002-01-24 08:32:25 PM
Another point to consider in all of this is that - as many posters have mentioned - even with a "Status of Forces Agreement" between the host government and the USA, best be that you obey the local laws!

To use an example, while most of the laws of the various states of the US are based on the English Common Law, at least one isn't - Louisiana.

Louisiana's laws are based on the Napoleonic code of justice, in which the basic rule is this: The accused is considered guilty until proven innocent.
 
HP
2002-01-24 08:56:23 PM
Hahaha..
so much for High regard for women...

http://www.geocities.com/AntiJihad/Flyers/women.gif


Theres more:
Very interesting...
http://www.geocities.com/AntiJihad/Flyers/flyers.html
 
2002-01-24 08:59:23 PM
HP Better than the Bible passages about kiling your wife, or taking you sister-in-law as your wife, impregnating her, and then dumping her....

3Horn

Not that I'm saying it's good mind you...
 
HP
2002-01-24 09:01:02 PM
3horn

I think what you said is bad... but not as bad as some 9year old wife of some guy saying that she washed semen from his 50+year olds husbands clothes..
 
HP
2002-01-24 09:04:12 PM
3horn:

Also it scares me why this is the fastest growing religion.. I think people who are being converted are not given the full meal deal...

But I also think that no muslim Nation will try to 'conquer the world' (with what? sticks and stones?)...

...Maybe Iraq.. but thats about it...
 
2002-01-24 09:11:17 PM
Geez, between this and Rei's article and all the crap that's going on in the world, I've just about had it. I think I'm gonna take a break from reading FARK and the news for the next 20 years or so. The only way I can have faith in humanity is to become ignorant. Y'all have nice lives.
 
2002-01-24 09:12:11 PM
Yeah HP, I just figure that they've grown tired of the shiat sandwich that Christianity was giving them, and decided to trade up.

As to what I said being bad, what's wrong with it? I was just paraphrasing the Bible...

3Horn
 
2002-01-24 09:15:45 PM
Why would the military make a decision to allow women to do this at a time where Saudi support in the Middel East is crucial? There is already a growing backlash against American troops in the region. It's like they are trying to provoke something.
 
2002-01-24 09:48:35 PM
Happydude, the Saudi's are only our friends when they need us to save their asses and their oil fields. At any other time, we're infidels. I'd love it if we drilled in ANWAR and buddied up to the Russians and told the Saudis to go fucl< themselves. BUT if we did that, then some asshole like Saddam could take over the oil countries. Can you imagine what kind of damage Saddam could do if he had the funding invading Kuwait and Saudi Arabia would bring him? So we kinda have to keep our hand in. However, I do think that the US should tell them that their laws do not apply to US service men and women and to shut the fucl< up.
 
2002-01-24 10:07:29 PM
Sounds like a bunch of limp weenie U.S 'o A. ex-military types feel real threatened in this forum.

I saw McSalley on 60 minutes last weekend and within 1 week the mititary reverse themselves. Way to go McSalley. Fark the Saudies. That corrupt royal family is short lived IMHO.

The U.S 'o A. had since '73 to get themselves energy independant but farked up politically. If they had they coulda let Sadam keep Kuiwat ( another corrupt royal family ) and then let him then take Saudia Arabia. Instead of 3 bastard regimes in the gulf there would only be one headed by Sadam. The Isreal could have and would have been justified to pre-emptively take him out just as they did his nuclear facilities several years ago.
 
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