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(BBC)   Elton John calls Bush a bully, likens the current administration to McCarthyism   (news.bbc.co.uk) divider line 433
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5139 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Jul 2004 at 3:15 PM (10 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2004-07-17 09:41:56 PM
BigJake writes: So Fark is The Media now?

FARK is part of the media, yes. Or, at least, if any of the many headlines trumpeting FARK's citations in Time or USAToday, etc. are to be believed.
 
2004-07-17 09:45:20 PM
2004-07-17 09:41:11 PM LesPhilky

Neocomm's are so cute when they're self-righteous.
 
2004-07-17 09:46:32 PM
BigJake

More ways and more easily.

Honest question, big guy. Have you taken a look at H.R. 2417 ("Patriot Act"), and H.R. 3162 (A finance bill, which included a major chunk of the rejected "Patriot Act II" as a rider)? If not, please do so. Both are available for public browsing at www.whitehouse.gov.
 
2004-07-17 09:48:28 PM
An assertion is not an answer.
 
2004-07-17 09:53:53 PM
HowlingFrog

I was worried about the Patriot Act too, but when I found out that John Kerry and John Edwards had voted for it, I figured it must be good for America.
 
2004-07-17 09:58:38 PM
Flipper the Dolphin

:|

/ain't voting Boneser.
/ain't voting NWO
/refuses to play their knuckleheaded game.
 
2004-07-17 09:59:11 PM
Neocomm's are so cute when they're self-righteous.

LOL, buddy, I'm probably more of a conservative than you are.

Okay, so I admit, my comment was a little over the top. Still, you tend to start predicting the answers after a while.

Anyway, sorry to lump ya in with the rest...
 
2004-07-17 10:00:39 PM
BigJake

Are you gonna answer the question?
 
Po3
2004-07-17 10:02:10 PM
Nonesense. The Patriot Act is the end of all civil liberties, rights and freedoms of the American people. Don't belive me? Just ask a liberal. They will tell you all about it. Now now, dont bother reading the silly law or understanding or examining how it is currently being implimented, that would be for "goose steppers" who have this silly notion that figuring something out for themselves is better than having us tell them.

Word of the day: Hypocrisy. Becasue nothing feels quite as good as the inferance of being a close minded "goose stepper" by someone who won't admit the existance of another side of the issue.
 
2004-07-17 10:06:07 PM
Po3

I said above:

"I can now be spied on from a thousand different angles, be arrested without charge, and be held indefinately without legal recourse."

Are you saying that this is untrue?
 
2004-07-17 10:09:53 PM
*taps foot*

Oh wait, he's prolly reading the damn things..
 
2004-07-17 10:13:39 PM
HowlingFrog

*taps foot*

Oh wait, he's prolly reading the damn things..


Yes, since no one has ever come into a fark flame war lacking facts...
 
2004-07-17 10:16:01 PM
"Yes, since no one has ever come into a fark flame war lacking facts..."

I haven't done that in at least a week.
 
2004-07-17 10:19:40 PM
["I can now be spied on from a thousand different angles, be arrested without charge, and be held indefinately without legal recourse."]

Are you complaining about the patriot act or the DMCA? Or maybe RIAA's crack down on file trading?

Anyone complaining about so called 'patriot act' abuses has had their head in the sand since the mid 80's. Where was your outrage when it could have been useful? Too late to do anything about it now. Just go back to sleep, it'll all be over soon anyway.
 
2004-07-17 10:25:49 PM
"There was a moment about a year ago when you couldn't say a word about anything in this country for fear of your career being shot down by people saying you are un-American," he told the magazine."

This is public opinion he's biatching about not Bush administration policy. The solution to what Elton sees as a problem would the suppression of public opinion itself. What an asshat!

When the Dixie Chicks lost all their fans, it was not because Bush blacklisted them. It was because all their fans were middle America country music fans and largely conservative. But I suppose in Sir Elton's utopia they would have been forced to continue buying Dixie Chick albums?
 
2004-07-17 10:30:04 PM
The Patriot Act, Weaver.
And stuff your condecension, ja? Ridiculous and no need.
I was living abroad from the beginning of the 80's until almost the mid 90's. Perhaps you could explain what you're referring to?
 
2004-07-17 10:34:04 PM
Weaver95

"he'd have been appalled at what's become of modern day political parties."

I'm with you 100% on this, and wish he could be cloned so I could vote for him. Just saying that he had his own problems with intellectual property rights, and would NOT have ripped off someone else's royalties.

/Ya gotta love a man who dies with a completely empty wine cellar.
 
2004-07-17 10:39:55 PM
[And stuff your condecension, ja? Ridiculous and no need.]

How long you been on Fark again...?

[Perhaps you could explain what you're referring to?]

The NSA/FBI joint raids on suspected 'hackers'. In particular, pay attention to the raid on Steve Jackson games. The tactics (both legal and otherwise) formed the basis for what was to happen later. So called 'no knock' drug raids and property seizure raids started to become VERY popular around this time.

That's when the Federales started with the bad attitude and wiping thier collective asses with our Bill of Rights. The patriot act? Nothing more than the latest incarnation of something started 25 odd years ago. Now that people other than 'just' the computer nerds are being affected, others are starting to take notice.

Seriously - go do a google for Steve Jackson games and look for the hacker raid on his company. Jackson is an arrogant prick, but he didn't deserve what happened to him.
 
2004-07-17 10:53:40 PM


Oops.. It looks like Elton chewed through his ball gag again. Here you big fella. Now just shut the hell up.
 
2004-07-17 10:54:27 PM
I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) that Weaver95 is referring, in large part, to the "Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996", among others. Read up on it, it really is the precurser to the Patriot act. And I agree with him, it was a reactionary, unnecessary piece of legislation introduced by Clinton and passed in response to the Oklahoma City bombing. It has been abused countless times,especially inn drug cases, but always quietly. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

However, I and every liberal I knew at the time condemned it, while most conservatives (and "loyal" Democrats) applauded it as "tough on crime" and an "overdue, needed step in the right direction".

Hell, the death penalty part of it alone was enough to pit most liberals against it.
 
m00
2004-07-17 10:54:49 PM
2004-07-17 10:19:40 PM Weaver95

I was totally outraged at the DMCA. In fact, it's my main gripe about the Clinton administration.
 
2004-07-17 10:55:47 PM
Weaver95

I'll look into that. Thanks.
 
m00
2004-07-17 10:58:02 PM
2004-07-17 10:25:49 PM MisterMike

Bush didn't blacklist them, but he did speak out against them. Forget the quote.
 
2004-07-17 11:00:55 PM
I think you all hate America.
 
m00
2004-07-17 11:01:25 PM
2004-07-17 09:38:28 PM BigJake


Let's deconstruct this carefully. How can you now be spied on in more ways than before?

FBI no longer needs a warrant, or judicial oversight.
 
m00
2004-07-17 11:08:36 PM
2004-07-17 09:32:14 PM BigJake

That 100+ billion in Iraq could have done wonders if it were invested in the US economy. Instead, we "invested" in the board of directors over at Haliburton.

Also, he isn't enforcing our outsourcing rules.

Patriot Act, loss of liberties.

So yeah.
 
2004-07-17 11:12:14 PM
Howling Frog -

here, have a link!

http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/SJG/
 
2004-07-17 11:14:12 PM
And, some MORE links!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GURPS_Cyberpunk
 
2004-07-17 11:15:55 PM
I think this quote is awesome.
"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."
-Hermann Goering
 
2004-07-17 11:16:22 PM
interesting...
 
2004-07-17 11:17:47 PM
I submitted a story today about the Log Cabin Republicans' reluctance to endorse Bush.

Headline: Gay Republicans soft on tapping Bush.

/here all week
 
2004-07-17 11:17:48 PM
[interesting...]

Welcome to the party. Damn shame it took so long for people to finally wake the hell up.
 
2004-07-17 11:19:06 PM
Weaver95

Wait, I'm not quite clear where you stand. Do you oppose the Patriot and Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Acts or just the DMCA and the RIAA's tactics?
 
2004-07-17 11:24:05 PM
[Wait, I'm not quite clear where you stand. Do you oppose the Patriot and Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Acts or just the DMCA and the RIAA's tactics?]

All of them. The all violate both the letter AND spirit of the US constitution. They all are taking the country places where it should never have even thought about going.

Bad idea to let scared legislators vote on something slapped together in the middle of the night by staffers in cahoots with the NSA, Secret Service and FBI. They should do their jobs and read before they vote.
 
2004-07-17 11:24:32 PM
"Jackson is an arrogant prick, but he didn't deserve what happened to him."

We can say the same for Randy Weaver.
 
2004-07-17 11:25:26 PM
[We can say the same for Randy Weaver.]

I'd agree.
 
2004-07-17 11:26:15 PM
Weaver95

Well said, I completely agree. Ron Paul would be proud :)
 
m00
2004-07-17 11:26:39 PM
2004-07-17 11:24:05 PM Weaver95

What do you think of diebold?
 
2004-07-17 11:27:52 PM
[What do you think of diebold?]

I think they make wonderful 1/16th wrenches.
 
2004-07-17 11:29:29 PM
And automatic teller machines. However, they do make horrible electronic voting machines.
 
2004-07-17 11:32:25 PM
2004-07-17 11:24:05 PM Weaver95

Ya got my vote.
 
2004-07-17 11:40:40 PM
I'm not sure if I should be overjoyed that suddenly people are noticing the erosion of the Bill of Rights, or despise them for allowing it to have gotten to this point in the first place.

Overall, i'm leaning towards 'overjoyed' tinged with some slight contempt. Now if we could just get the EFF to quit being so damn california, open an east coast branch and actually DO something rather than sit there being smug and arrogant maybe, just maybe, some sort of hue and cry might get out to the brain dead AOL skags and filter back to the Powers that Be regarding our rights.
 
2004-07-17 11:50:24 PM
Weaver95

Great. Now ya know how I'm gonna feel when our little flag-wavers start opening their crusted heads about 9/11.
 
2004-07-18 12:29:33 AM
Everyone, I think his comment was actually a compliment. After all it's Elton John, he likes it when a bully gives it to him rough.

*pat self on back*
 
2004-07-18 12:37:53 AM
Damn I hate when I find myself reading DIA's posts and agreeing with all of them.

Sigh.
 
2004-07-18 01:09:59 AM
2004-07-17 02:05:42 PM dpr
"There was a moment about a year ago when you couldn't say a word about anything in this country for fear of your career being shot down by people saying you are un-American,"
Check.


The key difference is that he wasn't "shot down" by the government, like was done in McCarthy times. This is simply people refusing to buy your product. Getting shot down by the macroeconomy because you do something that makes people not like you is not censorship, it's exactly how capitalism is supposed to work.

If the administration was really "suppressing free speech and being McCarthyistic," 73% of farkers would be in "happy camps" right now.
 
2004-07-18 01:20:55 AM
Given the public forum that celebrities have, shouldn't they take the opportunity to make their opinions known? I mean, if I could get teh word out that I really like Fight club, I'd certainly take the opportunity. Hey, if we didn't want to hear what at lest some of them have to say, we wouldn't be fans, right? I may not like the work of someone like umm, well, Rush Limbaugh, but that is no reason for me to want him to shut up. he has every right to state his opinion to his public forum, and so does Sir Reg.

This kind of thing:

"I like Elton Johns music. To bad he has turned into yet another celebrity tryin to draw headlines and free advertising by spewing some freedom of speech down with Bush down with the oppressor crap... He apparently didn't put anymore thought into what he was saying than some of you who are lapping it up."

Is what he is on about.

You guys who go around telling us that celebs should just shut up, are th worst kind of americans, or whatever you want to be called. You say that you love the freedoms and frank alvishnes of American life, but criticize anyone who has both reaped it's benefits and garnered the attention of many of your fellows. I wonder if you would simply beat to death anyone who simply stood on the corder and told you what they thought of a given subject, if you didn't like their opinion.


Now, I'm sure you wouldn't.

All of that being said, I spent a chunk of my morning with a Vet of 7 beach heads in the pacific theatre (WW2, the good one) and he had a few things to say:

1) He had personally killed women and children, not that he enjoyed it, but they wer etold that the japanese would fight to the last man and killing thier reason for fighting semed like a godo idea at the time.

2) He lost two brothers, one to friendly fire and one to flack (he was with the flying tigers)

3) His other (younger) brother jsut retired from the pentagon, which he described as full of paper tigers.

4) He believed that bush should have used the cia or some other agency to kill SAddam in some cheap and quiet fashion, and that the shock and awe campain had done litle more than make more enemies for America.

5) he proceeded to demonstrate how to control a larger man through the use of Judo skills he picked up in covert training (he has killed with little more than his hands and a knife and was again not proud, he described it as just doing his duty)

Needles to say it was a fine way to spend my morning, a genuine soldier, a real American and someone who spoke aginst bush.

Should he be criticized too?
 
2004-07-18 01:24:55 AM
This thread is full of strawmen. Yes, (almost) everyone sees it as obvious that the Dixie Chicks were not the victims of censorship. Good . . . congratulations on making the same argument as everyone else, give the hamster a rest now and listen:

Just because something isn't illegal (or is your right) does not make it a good thing to do. Though there are some problems with administration policies (overspending, corporate giveaways, unjustifiable wars) the worse problem that Elton John is criticizing is the polemicized American society -- the society that is incapable of allowing the Dixie Chicks to express an opinion without reacting in a very dumb (and very bad) way. If Joe six-pack wants get his Dixie Chicks tattoo removed because 'their're traytors' he's certainly within his rights. He is still, however, an idiot. What scares me is that there are far too many of those idiots, blinded by the most divisive president in history, running around doing whatever FoxNews tells them to do. It's as bad as liberals in the late 80s following Kennedy. Wake up! That's what Elton JOhn is saying.

/Legality != good
 
2004-07-18 01:31:51 AM
Well then Po3

Word of the day: Hypocrisy. Becasue nothing feels quite as good as the inferance of being a close minded "goose stepper" by someone who won't admit the existance of another side of the issue.

Po3: My view is that if you act as an animal, regardless of your reasoning then you should be treated as such and humanely dispatched. I have no need to cite the barbarism commited by these things, as it should be common knowledge to any farker or open minded person, regardless of stance by now. Being "human" or being a "person" to me has alot less to do with your genetic makuep, than it does with how you act and live your life. People? Not them. I consider them nothing more than things, vile little things at best. Any sympathy I had for there plight or the assinine behavior that is American Forign Policy was lost with the murder of a pregnant jew and her four children... The further actions of these extremists have only reinforced my villification of them.

These people, the insurgents in Iraq, are fighting for what they define as their freedom, that being said, what could a group of "real Freedom Fighters" do if perhaps a superior military force took over their country? What would *You* do if say, the ruskies had stayed a threat and finally overtook the US? What if he situation was reversed, the US was directly invaded and successfully overthrown by a foreign army. What is the proper response to that?

Please keep your "hipocrisy" quote in mind when you write your answer
 
2004-07-18 01:32:09 AM
Censorship? Who has been stopped from saying anything? Elton should put the gerbil back up his ass and worry about his own country.
 
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