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(No Dubya)   Cheney likely to face criminal indictment by French courts for bribery and fraud   (capitolhillblue.com) divider line 851
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40582 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Jul 2004 at 2:06 AM (10 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2004-07-12 08:59:49 AM
2004-07-12 08:00:34 AM Aias

Triaxis,

Nothin like trying to lay blame on an entire nation for the actions of a handful of people. Or do you support that type of behavior?


When I said "France" I was referring to its government. Or are you implying that the French government knew nothing about this?

When they said "NO WAR FOR OIL" they meant it. Give them free oil and they'll not go to war.
 
2004-07-12 09:00:26 AM
Bah, it's the French...their laws don't count.

Right? Right?
 
2004-07-12 09:01:59 AM
Mike_71

This is shaping up to be a good morning.

But the fact that you choose NOT to believe in God due to "lack of evidence" immediately defines you as a hopeless fool, and there's nothing I can present based on scripture because you don't believe in them in the first place.

Oh, man, you're hilarious. If I tell you that there's an invisible, intangible goblin on your shoulder, would you believe me? How is that different from belief in God? I'm sorry Mike, but I'm not the fool here.

People like you are the reason that I so dislike organized religion. You have accepted a system of values based on nothing more than blind faith. Now you hold opinions and values without any rational reason. Can't you see how dangerous that is?

You have chosen to follow the masses and demand physical evidence of a spiritual entity. By definition, that's not possible.

Therefore, spirituality must be FAITH based, which you apparently have none of.


I completely agree with you. God cannot be proven. Some gods can be disproven, however. I choose not to blindly believe in that which I cannot know, but instead consider the matter and come to an informed conclusion. The great problem with faith is that it's possible to have faith in anything. I can have faith that pink unicorns exist, I can have faith that the sun will not rise tomorrow. Faith does not make these things real, it is merely a self-imposed delusion.

Without faith, you have no hope of better things.

Nonsense. Without faith, I have the hope of a world of people who realize that their petty cultural and religious differences can be transcended through rational discussion and exchange of ideas. I hope that some day "because God said so" will no longer be a valid excuse for hatred. I hope that some day schoolchildren will scoff at the horrors religion has imposed on the world, finding it impossible to think we could be so stupid.

On a scientific note...

Hooray? I fail to see how your example is at all relevant. So a turn of the century physician and the beginning of the Bible appear to have something in common?

All God asks you to do is "believe".

Your lack of faith and selfish motivations prevent you from such a simple act that even a child can do.


God has not asked me to do anything, and I find it strange that you can know my motivations, despite only knowing me for a short conversation in text. Please dispense with your insults if you should choose to respond.
 
2004-07-12 09:02:24 AM
If the flood never happened, where are all the unicorns?

You're not so smart now, heathen.
Come at us with all those ungodly numbers and equations.
 
2004-07-12 09:04:39 AM
In other news, the French will be investigated on corruption in the Oil for Food program.
 
2004-07-12 09:10:58 AM
More evidence that conservative politicians are crooks. Color me "not very surprised".

Flipper the Dolphin:
While those Left-wingers say they don't support gay marriage, you are leaving the second part of their comment out - "...but we don't want the federal government outlawing it as a threat to family values." Laws to "protect family values" is the conservative adgenda.

How about we stop worrying about laws and policy that saves family values, we talk about policy that saves actual families (i.e. not having members of families in foreign coutries getting killed).
 
2004-07-12 09:11:02 AM
2004-07-12 09:04:39 AM DigitalReligion

In other news, the French will be investigated on corruption in the Oil for Food program.


In other news, a 79 year old french widow realizes that according to DigitalReligion, she will be investigated on corruption in the oil for food program and says, wtf?
 
2004-07-12 09:11:24 AM
beammeupscotty

Yep, it all adds up. And just so you know, I read the first paragraph and immediately saw where you were coming from.

The whole scenario is correct in every way, but lacks consideration of one thing....God.

The story of Noah in Genesis 7 NEVER MENTIONS FOOD!

Why?

Because maybe they didn't bring any along. They had God with them, and he'd provide what they needed when they needed it.

Whenever someone tries to SCIENTIFICALLY disprove God, they always eliminate his possible infuence because it is He they're trying to disprove in the first place.

When Shadrach, Meshack, and Abednigo were thrown into the fiery furnace, they SHOULD have been incinerated.

But they weren't, because God sent an angel down to be with them, and the heat didn't even so much as singe their hair.

Any scientist who reads this story would come up with a million page expanation as to why this is an assinine and bogus story.

Why?

They simply don't believe in God, therefore there's no such thing as "angels", therefore, to them, the story is a hoax.

The story of Noah doesn't mention food of any kind for ANY of the creatures, including Noah.

Therefore, if its THAT important to you, we must assume that God intervened and sustained Noah, his family, and all the animals on a physical basis, through his spirit.

Remember, I believe in the Hebrew God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. He is ALL POWERFUL, KNOWING, LOVING, AND SEEING.

If he wants to pack a couple thousand animals on a boat with some dude and his family for more than a month, WITHOUT FOOD, he can.

Stop limiting yourself by what you can see, touch, and calculate, and you'll understand.

Are you an atheist?

Just askin
 
2004-07-12 09:11:30 AM
There are two things that I am amused about.

1) People seem to be ignoring that math thing showing that the ark didn't work so much. Interesting, that. Anybody care to show why it doesn't matter?

2) The current discussion is removed by 2 whole discussions from the original topic. Go fark!
 
2004-07-12 09:11:43 AM
Replace Clinton with Pentagon Cronies and I think you've got a fair start on the position of us ultra-libby-lefty-loonies.

Justify an Iraq war plan before any plan against Al-Queda.
Tell us who was at the secret meetings which shaped the proposed energy policy for the entire nation.
Chickenhawk-thieving-neo-cons.
 
2004-07-12 09:11:48 AM
Isn't the French system pretty much based on bribery and nepotism?
 
2004-07-12 09:12:23 AM
Ahhh, what timing on my part. Congratulations, Mike, on posting right before my comment!
 
2004-07-12 09:12:40 AM
"French court"

BWAH-HA-HA-HAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!
 
FKA
2004-07-12 09:13:30 AM
Don't be a dick (Cheney)
 
2004-07-12 09:13:31 AM
2004-07-12 08:59:49 AM Triaxis
When I said "France" I was referring to its government. Or are you implying that the French government knew nothing about this?


I'll say it again, where is this evidence and where are the charges. The GAO is barely into it yet. They haven't made this charge.
Google Fox for their recent article. Fox says companie or nations and provide no proof. They absoulutely would had they had any. They say, "Here's how the system is thought to have operated."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,125212,00.html
 
2004-07-12 09:13:42 AM
Mike_71: Well, thank you for that very erudite and compelling argument. Here's what I got out of it:

1) A short passage in the Bible says that homosexuality is wrong, therefore that is the absolute truth.

2) Homosexuality, not the Human Immunodeficiency Virus, causes AIDS.

Excellent job of critical thinking there, buddy. If you believe everything you read, I have a pamphlet about a bridge I want to sell you.

I've refuted this argument (well, the first point) many times before, and I'm not sure if I want to put the energy into doing it again, or pass the ball to someone else willing to explain it. I suppose I should give you the condensed version, although you'll probably reject it.

Firstly, the example you surprisingly have yet to pull out (most people don't use Paul's text first, but I'll get to him in a minute.) The Book of Leviticus is an ancient socio-political text that basically laid out a social and legal structure for the Israelites several thousand years ago. If read carefully and thoroughly (which most Christians simply have not done), it becomes evident that the majority of "sins" and "abominations" are condemned for very practical reasons. For example, amongst these abominations is the consumption of a long list of prohibited animals - pigs, shellfish, rock badgers, etc. The reasoning behind this is clear even to a layman; the animals listed were not safe to eat in the desert. Shellfish and other aquatic creatures very quickly spoiled, and the other animals were known to be unsanitary. In a society with a limited population, the two most important things were survival and procreation - hence "don't eat things that will kill you" and also "don't engage in sexual activity that will not be conducive to creating healthy offspring." There are, as I recall from reading this book, several equally damning sexual sins one can commit, and the end result is that the people are restricted to procreative sex with their spouse by the fear of God. It works, don't get me wrong, it still keeps the people in line - but we are not ancient nomadic Israelites. We have no need for these laws, because we have our own, and they are changing with society because that must happen for a society to avoid stagnation. Take a look at the Catholic Church for a prime example.

Secondly, if you're a hardcore anti-"sin" fundy "Christian", obviously Paul the Evangelist is the guy you want to quote when you're pulling out the Bible verses. Who better to champion your cause than a rabidly conservative moralist who basically founded Christianity as an organized religion to impose those morals on others? (caveat: that may be partially conjecture or it may be solid fact, but the vast majority of the time, imposition of the will is the driving force behind founding a religion - but don't ask me, read your history.) Fundamentalists love Paul, because he's just like them.

Your second point is far too ludicrous to discuss on any sort of rational basis, so I'll just put it to you straight. AIDS *did not exist* 2000 years ago. Homosexuality did. AIDS is, in fact, a new phenomenon, on the order of a couple of decades - did it take God that long to get around to his smiting of the gays, or are you spewing bullshiat? I say the latter. Even before that - how the hell do you extrapolate "AIDS" from "due penalty?" You couldn't have done that 40 years ago, which means that Paul couldn't have done that 2000-odd years ago.

What about your comments makes you a loon? Ridiculous assumptions and a total lack of facts to back up your rabid position. Thanks for playing, but your school of thought is slowly but surely becoming obsolete. Wake me when all of you "fundamentalist Christians" are following the fundamental teachings of Jesus Christ, 'cause then I think we'll get along.
 
2004-07-12 09:13:48 AM
When I said "France" I was referring to its government. Or are you implying that the French government knew nothing about this?

Applying your logic, the 9/11 attackers were trained in the pilot schools in Florida, so the US government must be responsible.
 
2004-07-12 09:14:07 AM
Quadriplegic

How's your dad doin?
 
2004-07-12 09:15:52 AM
This sounds pretty bad. We'll have to see how it plays out. I'd like to see the evidence, though.

Can't wait to see:

(?) France surrenders. Cheney absolved.

Yes I know the SEC is involved as well (I RTFA) but there's no "SEC Surrenders" cliche.
 
2004-07-12 09:17:26 AM
The Republican Party.
Banking on your ignorance since 1968.
 
2004-07-12 09:17:31 AM
Mike_71

I never said homosexuality should be "illegal", because you can't outlaw a behaviour.

MORALLY WRONG. Absolutely.

Illegal? Duh.


Murder is a behavior. My day just isn't right unless I pop a cap in somebody's head.

Murder is morally wrong. He delivered the tablets to Moses in the book of Exodus, and spelled it out clearly in Exodus 20:13.

Murder is illegal in every civilized society. The punishments are severe.

The prohibitions against homosexuality in Leviticus 18:22 were not delivered on stone tablets to Mount Sinai, but they're direct from the Lord.

Is homosexuality a sin of the same gravity as murder? If so, should it be punished with similar gravity?
 
2004-07-12 09:18:15 AM
Mr. Perspicacious, you're full of shiat. Cheney did not dump all his stock in Halliburton before running for VP. He still retains 433,000 shares through stock options, which were worth at least $18 million based on an estimate I read earlier this year.

Since the value of options vary according to their terms, you can't predict exactly how much he'll make unless you can see their terms. But as a general rules, options are given with the expectation that their value will increase as the company performs better. I would bet it works the same with Halliburton.
 
2004-07-12 09:20:01 AM
"Stop limiting yourself by what you can see, touch, and calculate, and you'll understand."

You mean blindly accept on faith? I got some real estate in Florida you'd be interested in. It's cool, really. I can have all the faith in the world I'm goin to win the lottery tomorrow but that's not going to make it a reality.
 
2004-07-12 09:20:32 AM
if you think homosexuality is immoral, then simply refrain from engaging in homosexuality.

i don't like it when people talk with new yawk accents, does that mean we should make new yawk accents illegal?
 
2004-07-12 09:22:27 AM
gays have no right to marriage; the institution is, simply only possible between a man and woman. Love has nothing to do with it, really. It's simply the institutional basis for human families.

If gay couples want to live together, more power to them; if they want to confirm a relationship, have a nioce parrty and anno9unce it; but no certificate will make them any more, or less valid, as a couple.

If they wish to have children, and both have parental rights, then they need to have adoption papers ready shortly after birth and done. If they don't want inheritance problems, designate each other in a will, and grant powers of attorney, living wills, and other legal documentation that many married couples go ahead and do anyway.


There are more limitations to marriage other than gender; age, degree of relation, and in many ways, citizenship can impact a persons ability to marry anyone else. So, we have those existing restrictions.

As I view it, there is no discrimination; A heterosexual man does not have the freedom to marry any man. A heterosexual woman cannot choose to marry another woman. Homosexual men are free to marry any women they want, and so on. You can add in the love intangible, but love and marriage being synonymous hasn't been true for that long to begin with.

Call me bigoited if you want, though I'd disagree with your assesment. This is my belief on the institution of marriage. It is, has been, and always will be an institution of a man marrying a woman. It has a cultural significance that doesn't come from the law--the legal impacts on the couple that it does carry can be fairly duplicated by other means.

IOW, get over it; the majority of the country is against it, and that's that.
 
2004-07-12 09:24:03 AM
"But the fact that you choose NOT to believe in God due to "lack of evidence" immediately defines you as a hopeless fool,"


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

pause

breath

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH


Funniest thing I read in a long time.
 
2004-07-12 09:26:04 AM
Mike_71,

You are as amazing as you are blind, and apparently as ignorant of the Bible.

There's too much in you last post to take on at once (I'm tired and ready for bed), so I'll hit the highlights.

"The story of Noah in Genesis 7 NEVER MENTIONS FOOD!"

Agreed. I wasn't mentioning Gen 7 for the food bit, but rather because they didn't have to take an even more rediculously large amount of animals onto the ark. Please read Gen. 6:21--"Also take with you every sort of food that is eaten, and store it up; and it shall serve as food for you and them" (Oxford Annotated Bible, RSV). That pretty much sums up my point on doing the math.

"Because maybe they didn't bring any along. They had God with them, and he'd provide what they needed when they needed it."

Which is it? Either God wanted Noah to bring food or he didn't. The above verse says he, i.e., G., did. If the Bible is infallible, then your argument falls flat.

"Because maybe they didn't bring any along. They had God with them, and he'd provide what they needed when they needed it."

What about 6:21?

"Are you an atheist?"

I describe myself as an agnostic with strong atheistic tendencies, meaning I realize the existence/non-existence of god(s) can never be proved scientifically, but I have strong faith that there is/are none. You can appreciate that, yes?:-)
 
2004-07-12 09:26:50 AM
Now the government of France needs to be indicted for the part in the oil-for-food fiasco with the UN...
 
2004-07-12 09:27:37 AM
incrdbil

something i've kinda wondered... the 'institution of marriage' crowd never really has answered it.

if two gay people are allowed to marry, does it make your marriage worth less? if not, why the hell do you care?

there are marriage drive-thru's for chrissakes...lets not act like we're treading in the realm of the super-sanctified.
 
2004-07-12 09:27:51 AM
You guys are dumb.

In other news, has anyone ever actually SEEN a picture of Cheney where he didn't look like he was about to bite the head off of something?






It would be pretty sweet if there WAS legal precedent for a foreign nation to bring a sitting VP up on charges of graft and corruption, but please, have another round of Freedom Fries, a nice glass of Sparkling California White Fermented Grape Beverage, some Patriot Dressing, and a heaping tablespoon of STFU.
 
2004-07-12 09:29:33 AM
"And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.
Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he. "
-Genesis 6:21-22

Whoops! God told Noah to take the food with him. He commanded him to take the necessary food. He did not provide during the trip. How's about that Bible, eh?

"Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, [shall be] of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that [are] with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit [them for] a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour. "

I like these even more. Leviticus 25:44-46.

Slavery is fun for everyone! Should we make that legal?
 
2004-07-12 09:29:57 AM
fisherman62

i don't like it when people talk with new yawk accents, does that mean we should make new yawk accents illegal?

Probably, but you know, with good speech counselling, we can probably polish that New Yawk accent into a more rounded and pleasing Bahstan Brahmin's voice in just a few months.

Just take Jesus into your heart, and resist the urge to frequent delicatessens, Yankees games, or other dens of sin which could cause you to backslide into taboo behavior.
 
2004-07-12 09:30:03 AM
2004-07-12 09:17:31 AM sumdumguy

Murder is illegal in every civilized society. The punishments are severe.

The prohibitions against homosexuality in Leviticus 18:22 were not delivered on stone tablets to Mount Sinai, but they're direct from the Lord.

Is homosexuality a sin of the same gravity as murder? If so, should it be punished with similar gravity?


See, here is the difference. Murder is morally wrong by all civilized societies. It is generally accepted to be wrong. Homosexuality is not generally accepted to be wrong. There are some groups who feel it is so, but not everyone. Since we live in a democratic society, not a theocracy, then the people of this country and not the Bible decide what is legal and what is illegal.

Homosexuality is not a sin of the same gravity as murder. Murder is listed in the top ten, homosexuailty is in the book of Leviticus, a second stringer in the Bible. If you are basing what should be legal on the Bible, then this country will get really odd really quickly.

In an America run strictly by the Bible, using the name of God in vain would be illegal, as would not believing in God, as would not honoring your parents, as would covetting (ie wanting, not actually taking) other people's things. On the other hand, stoning pregnant single women would be perfectly acceptable.

And how did we get into this conversation in a thread about Cheney being indicted for bribery?
 
2004-07-12 09:32:38 AM
GobyWan

how do YOU know AIDS didn't exist in Biblical times?

and I never said "Homosexuality CAUSES AIDS".

I said AIDS is the RESULT, and it is.

God calls it the "due PENALTY", or "punishment" for Godless activity.

I'm just presenting Biblical facts, most of which the majority of humanity doesn't like to hear, because they don't like the idea of morals and being responsible for one's own actions on a spiritual basis.

Again, these aren't MY philosophies, these are GOD'S COMMANDS.

Get mad at him all you want, you'll be be talking to HIM on judgement day, not me, and you'll be joining alot of people mentioned in the Bible who chose to NOT believe.

I'm still praying for you, though.
 
2004-07-12 09:33:23 AM
MrPerspicacious

ok, in the uk, how it works is this

goon goes into politics, meets business people, gets on well with business people, leaves office, gets offered job by business people, a director do nothing role (they normally say "we like the ex-politicaians name on letterheads", truth is probably a little different otherwise scientists, inventors, sports people would also get far more of these often hugely profitable, low effort offers). business people also make donations to political parties. they often donate to both political parties at once. now cheney, lifelong member of the kissinger cabal leaves office and goes to take up one such offer - but then goes back to office. was the first quater 2 bn income from iraq about 50% of that for halliburton as a whole. not bad for no bid contracts.

but anyway, the article appears to be about halliburton's other crooked practices, or at least some of them, which given the company is already under investigation in america for accounting and will get in more shiat here with the admission that the former ceo according to the report received benefits he was not entitled to.

ken and dick sharing a cell - lay cheney lay

more greedy republicans, more oil, more dirty hands and mouths
 
2004-07-12 09:36:00 AM
haha the French who let in all those filthy muslims will implode soon. I can hardly wait. Would be great if the muslims elected themselves in and made the french women wear head dresses.... BTW having 2 guys going at it is wrong and will always be wrong. Its wrong in nature/god and it just plain stinks. To bad the incubation on aids is'nt 12 hours. This would have taken care of itself....
 
2004-07-12 09:36:46 AM
2004-07-12 09:32:38 AM Mike_71

God calls it the "due PENALTY", or "punishment" for Godless activity.

Penalty for Godless activities is to be barred from enterring the Kingdon of Heaven. AIDS is not a penalty for Godless activities. If it were, babies would not get AIDS from their mothers. Rape victims would not get AIDS. A married individual would not get AIDS from his/her adulterous spouse.

AIDS started in the homosexual community, that is true. But by your logic, it should have stayed there since it was punishment from God.
 
2004-07-12 09:38:45 AM
Mike_71:

"I'm just presenting Biblical facts"

No, you're presenting biblical statements. I have yet to see you present a biblical "fact" pertinent to this discussion supported by evidence from outside the Bible, which is a needed factor in order to believe it.

What about Gen 6:21?
 
2004-07-12 09:39:04 AM
Aparently Mike_71 has reading comprehension problems. Beammeupscotty clearly stated "Now, we know from Gen 6:21 that Noah was commanded to take food for all the animals and his family, thus nullifying a possible miracle explanation for not needing to bring food."

You Christers crack me up.
 
2004-07-12 09:39:08 AM
Mike_71

It is people like you who truly scare me. Don't push your morals on me. I don't need your "morals". It is my Constitutional right to disagree with your morals.

If you claim to be well educated, please take the time to read a book titled "Anatomy of Love" by Helen Fisher. There's a lot to be considered in regards to homosexuality, social evolution, etc that might open your mind a little bit. Granted, you might find it to be complete tripe, but it wouldn't hurt.
 
2004-07-12 09:39:47 AM
Another thing about AIDS being punishment from God...

Jesus Christ said that if you believed in Him, then your sins would be forgiven. As far as I know, AIDS patients who turn towards Christ are not healed. If AIDS was a punishment, then the punishment would be lifted when the offender devotes his/her life to Christ.
 
2004-07-12 09:40:21 AM
Polio is punishment for eating shellfish.

why? cuz i said so, dammit.
 
2004-07-12 09:40:38 AM
I am o so glad i am not getting into this debate, this just screams "huge waste of time like it normally is"...

going back to total fark boobie links...
 
2004-07-12 09:40:54 AM
"biblical fact" is an oxymoron
 
2004-07-12 09:42:26 AM
2004-07-12 09:30:03 AM wydok,

1) Shhhhh! You're making sense. Mike_71 has argued early and often that the Bible is the foundation for American government and jurisprudence. Now, if that is true, I need this to be reconciled on the basis of scripture. If you're going to get all squishy, morally relativistic, and taking into account the beliefs of human beings rather than Divine Law, well, I'd rather have a beer with you and talk about the state of the world, but it kind of takes all the fun out of this particular argument.

2) If you RTFA on Cheney, it's a non-story. A French magistratrate is investigating Haliburton's behavior, but has not indicted anyone yet. There's also some background (i.e. unattributed rumors) from the White House on their position. Nothing gets Farker's blood boiling like a good religious war though!
 
2004-07-12 09:42:47 AM
telco5
Laundry called, your sheets ready.
 
2004-07-12 09:44:40 AM
2004-07-12 09:42:26 AM sumdumguy

If you're going to get all squishy, morally relativistic, and taking into account the beliefs of human beings rather than Divine Law, well, I'd rather have a beer with you and talk about the state of the world

Sounds like fun, although I actually should be at work by now.
 
2004-07-12 09:46:03 AM
Quakerboy2

Very good, you KNOW your Bible, now, let's see if you actually BELIEVE it.

Remember, the Bible doesn't mention he actually stored the food ON THE ARK. He was just to gather it up and STORE IT AWAY, it doesn't say WHERE.

Rememer the flood waters would destroy everything on the Earth that was edible, and there wouldn't be anything left for them to eat when the ark came to rest.

If Noah stored a bunch away somewhere nothing would get to it, he'd have it when the ark came to rest.

You ever heard of a "silo".

Where do you think farmers got the idea?

There are alot of stories in the Bible that aren't completely clear when it comes to details, but that's why God asks us to trust him.

I'll admit, I'm one of the dumbest people I know, but I'm smart enough to trust the omniscient being who created me.
 
2004-07-12 09:46:20 AM
Mike_71, please keep posting. I havn't laughed this hard in a LONG time. And for the record, I am a card carying member of the GOP and I support the right to choose and detest religion AND the current administration. Flame on!
 
2004-07-12 09:47:39 AM
sparkythefarker

that cartoon is funny!

I actually know a couple old church ladies who look like that!
 
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