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(ABC)   Already morally bankrupt, Catholic Church files Chapter 11 bankruptcy, too   (abcnews.go.com) divider line 381
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15882 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Jul 2004 at 11:35 AM (10 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2004-07-08 01:03:09 PM  
"There wouldn't be so many of those hungry people if the Church would stop condeming birth control and abortion, especially in AIDS ridden African countries."

Pick just the bits you don't like and focus on that.
Millions of sick and hungry were comforted today by missionaries.
Even in your own country.
Without regard to the beliefs of the recipient.
 
2004-07-08 01:03:28 PM  
The choice is not between turning Africa into a suburb (you make it sound like we'd just let the corporations in and it would happen) and leaving it a negro-fest. Those are stupid, stupid options.

The problem is, there's a farking pandemic. Malaria is not the problem, crops are not the problem. Half the population is helping the other half die. And we haven't even given them the money for drugs we promised them a year or two ago.

/lunatics
 
2004-07-08 01:04:22 PM  
2004-07-08 12:54:28 PM Weaver95
[If all your "insight" into Africa is so solid, why aren't you doing something with it instead of posting on Fark?]


I do what I can. I push information out about the problems the eco-nuts cause where possible. I write my congressman, I vote, I campaign against greenpeace, do what I can to make thier lives difficult.

But i'm just one guy and i'm outnumbered. I'm also facing the benighted masses that refuse to hear the truth and would rather believe the lie.

I don't know why this has come up here, except that the Catholic Church is set up on organizational model like any other big corporation.
Speaking of which, perhaps Weaver95 Africa would like a Union Carbide plant? India has had enough of that corporate 'investment'.

 
2004-07-08 01:05:06 PM  
"Millions of sick and hungry were comforted today by missionaries.
Even in your own country."

...while a simple change in policy by ONE man would have outweighed ten times the good that all those missionaries have ever and will ever do in their lifetimes.

Condoms!! Condoms!! For christ's sake, teach people to use condoms!
 
2004-07-08 01:05:40 PM  
2004-07-08 12:30:54 PM Chach

Interestingly, sexual abuse by priests occurs at a lower rate than the population in general, and is 5 times less common than abuse by homosexual men. Yet these groups aren't demonized.


So, TEH GHEYS are the real problem? Way to be a cock. Do you think that any other "class" of molesters, straighy/gay/other has anyone covering up their shiat with this much power?

Damn! I *swore* I wouldn't feed the trolls.
 
2004-07-08 01:05:46 PM  
ratboy
Millions of sick and hungry were comforted today by missionaries.
Even in your own country.
Without regard to the beliefs of the recipient.


The failing I see in this argument is that it's based on the assumption that these people wouldn't be doing good if they weren't directed by the Church.
 
2004-07-08 01:06:09 PM  
"I'd like to hear why you think my above statements are wrong or don't make any sense at all."

Well, I never really said that. I shouldn't be so snarky I guess.

But anyhow, I really don't think Africas problems can be blamed soley on the UN or on Greenpeace. Nobody likes to hear it, but they need to take some responsibility for themselves. The constant civil wars, genocide, mass rape, crop burning etc, etc just can't all be solved by outside forces. I suppose most of this is similar to the situation in the MidEast in the sense that colonialists cut up the land in ways that suited them, which ended up putting bitter tribal enemies in the same country. The colonislists then left, saying "OK, now everybody play nice!"

In short, I don't have a plan of action for Africa. I know we (UN, whomever) couldn't solve all of their problems. Also, I think it would mean much more to them if they figure things out on their own.

You have ideas, which is good. Sadly though, it just can't help.
 
2004-07-08 01:06:10 PM  
I have to agree with Weaver95 here. But it's also true that LYING to gullible, uneducated African parishioners about condom effectiveness at STD prevention is evil.

Combine Weaver95's approach with a_cure_for_gravity's followed by WHO investigation into "Condoms don't work, Nobuto" with some accountability for the results, and the Catholic Church can go back to the things it does right.

e.g., producing slutty teenage girls.
 
2004-07-08 01:07:44 PM  
TheGooninator

Those numbers look suspicious anyway. A majority of their funding came from 'government grants and contracts' which probably just means most of the work was done because they were hired to do so by the government. When the government gives all that money to disaster areas and such someone local has to 'receive' it to set up the services required, for example. And that shouldnt really be counted as charitable.
 
2004-07-08 01:08:00 PM  
I'm thirty-two and I've been an athiest since I was fifteen and I feel pity for anyone who believes in the supernatural(Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Wiccans, ghost hunters, et al). It's sad that the believers are duped so well by the religious organizations. I know that it has been pumped into their heads since childhood and that sort of conditioning is hard to turn off.

I think the main issue is that when you kick out religion you are left with the simple truth that people are animals with big brains(no offence to dolphins intended). People want to be better than that. The religious find that fact offensive.

People are taught to think logically and believe in that which is proven by evidence. This line of thinking has evolved modern science as we know it today, but gets thrown out the window by the church. I mean, are dinosaur fossils "God's big joke"?

There are also folks who say that everything in the bible is figurative and symbolic rather than solid truth. That sounds like someone who in their mind knows that the writings are mostly without fact but want to justify the beliefs that have been drilled into them.

What's really scary is that there are so many of them out there, every one as clueless as the next.

Oh, and modern churches certainly should have to pay taxes. They have obviously enjoyed profits(see the popes pimped out digs for proof). The fact that they are afforded the same legal protection as business without the club dues is disturbing to say the least.
 
2004-07-08 01:08:27 PM  
Sinead was right

Now I just substitute the word "bugger" for "Father"

as in "Hello bugger O'Brien had any Boy Scouts today? ... you sick fark"

... the best part is that they HAVE to forgive me.

/Thought that the Catholic Church was run by a giant spider anyways
 
2004-07-08 01:08:42 PM  
[Speaking of which, perhaps Weaver95 Africa would like a Union Carbide plant? India has had enough of that corporate 'investment'.]

And as a result of corporate investment, India has one of the fastest, if the THE fastest growing GDP and standard of living of any third world country in the world.

But because ONE plant in ONE country did ONE bad thing, you want to shut down development everywhere? Think about just how silly an idea that is for a moment.
 
2004-07-08 01:09:03 PM  
Gah! Would people stop blaming the Vatican for the child molesting priests? It wasn't the Vatican. The whole reason the mess got the way it did in the first place was to HIDE it from the Vatican. I bring you this dramatic re-enactment:

Pedophile Priest: Hmmm. That altar boy looks nice. I wonder if I...

Later that evening, at the Bishop's house....

Irate parent: What the fark is wrong with you guys?

Bishop: Sorry, sorry, we'll take care of it. Have a huge steaming pile of money to compensate for your son's unfortunate experience, keep it hush hush now.

No longer irate, but rich parent: Ok, no problem. (leaves)

Bishop: fark. If the archbishop hears one of my priests is farkin' little kids, he'll tell the pope and I'll lose my pointy hat. fark fark fark fark fark. Ummmm. I know what to do. Play it cool, send him to treatment and move him out of the diocese. Out of sight out of mind, after all. And he won't be my problem anymore. AND if it ever comes up in the papers, I can say I tried by sending him to treatment. It can't fail.

20 years later....

Grown Altar Boy: Father Flannigan molested me, and my parents treated me like a whore so they could have a Bentley.

Media: Hmmm, we'll look into it.

Later, at the bishop's house...

Media: So you moved a known pedophile into another diocese?

Bishop: Well, I uh, sent him for treatment?

Media: You bastard.

Bishop: But I was gonna lose my pointy hat!

American public: Because a few priests are pedophiles, that must mean that ALL priests are pedophiles. Let the ass raping jokes ensue.

In all seriousness, though. The problem isn't with the lay Catholic or with the priests or with the pope. The problem is corrupt bishops. There weren't a large mass number of pedophiles, it was a small number of priests that bishops played hot potato with because they didn't want their diocese to take the blame. Immoral, yes. Wrong, yes. As a result, hundreds more children were abused (in some cases dozens by a single priest), the catholic church has a black eye, and the church is tied down in about a thousand lawsuits.

I'd assume pedophiles are attracted to the Catholic church because they can be in a position of power, and are given easy access to children. People who fark little kids are predators. They see an opportunity, and they take it. The church doesn't churn out pedophiles or sex offenders. A lot of people blame celibacy, and I think that might be justified. If there's a lady around to soothe those urges, and maybe if the priest is a moral man who can't control himself he'd go that route. I'd like to see celibacy made optional, myself.

One case was too many, it's the bishops' fault there were more.
 
2004-07-08 01:09:30 PM  
I recall overhearing a family friend talking to my parents about being an usher in the catholic church. The collection plate? The one you hard working xian folks throw your hard earned money into? Well according to him, all that money for the lords work went directly into their pockets. All of it. Every single penny. So you see, when I hear about shiat like this...about churchs filing for bankruptcy... All I can do is smile and say 'good'. The downfall of the catholic church is soooooo inevitable. I just hope I get to see it while Im alive. fark the church, fark religion and fark all the sheeple who fall for that bullshiat.
 
2004-07-08 01:10:07 PM  
Weaver95, I agree with allowing GM crops into Africa, but the whole "let them cut down their trees!!one" thing is asinine.

As far as mineral resources go, I agree with you. But deforestation, especially in what's left of the African rainforest, directly contributes to desertification, something that's already accelerating rapidly on the continent. Desertification results in less arable land, which means that more people starve because there's less space to grow crops in. Supergrains aren't going to fix that, either.

Rainforest soil, contrary to popular belief, is NOT rich. It's sandy soil, with only enough nutrients to sustain a pasture for about five years after an area's been cleared out. There's plenty of other land for growing crops.

There's a difference between being a environmentalist and an "eco-nut." Environmentalists use hard science, while most eco-nuts who don't completely understand the science are partisans who fit numbers to ideology.

Who's stopping African nations from growing their infrastructure? Nations like the US that haven't forgiven Third World countries of their debts and who do very little to encourage ethical business investment in the African continent.
 
2004-07-08 01:10:45 PM  
2004-07-08 01:01:59 PM dogfather_jr


TheGooninator
This is just a fraction of what the Church has done for the poor, as it shows only some of its social services, and only shows statistics for the United States.


Wow. The Church does stuff. Incredible.

Notice the 2,598,101,857 given out in DIRECT AID to the poor.

I couldn't actually find that figure anywhere. Regardless, it seems as though your point is that because the Church does so much good, they should be permitted lapses in judgement like letting priests abuse boys. Am I reading you correctly?

----------------------------------------

That exact figure is not listed on the site. I used deduction to figure out 89% of 2,919,215,570, the number listed at the bottom of the page. Clearly this process of 'deduction' requires higher mental capacities that you lack.

I am also not saying that the Church should be permitted to get away from this incident unscathed, but that a little fairness and equity be used when lambasting it for its misdeeds. These terrible crimes do not soil the entire Church, as many farkers are all too happy to believe.

/clarity
 
2004-07-08 01:11:03 PM  
Submitted this yesterday with a more accurate headline.

BTW, it's the Portland, Oregon Archdiocese, not the whole Catholic Church that filed. Also, what verse of Chapter 11 are they filing? he he he
 
2004-07-08 01:11:11 PM  
On the one hand, it is a sad day in the history of a venerable institution.

On the other hand, when does the property go up for auction? Cause, I could use some really antique looking candlestick holders...
 
2004-07-08 01:12:22 PM  
The Vatican has been morally bankrupt for a long long time.
 
2004-07-08 01:12:39 PM  
Candygram4Mongo On the other hand, when does the property go up for auction? Cause, I could use some really antique looking candlestick holders...

Ooohh - not me, they're covered in old altar boy poo.

/driving the BUS!
 
2004-07-08 01:14:43 PM  
"These terrible crimes do not soil the entire Church, as many farkers are all too happy to believe."

Why not? They appear to be widespread and covered up to some of the highest levels of authority. If the same thing was happening with Rabbis across the country...
 
2004-07-08 01:15:11 PM  
2004-07-08 12:42:28 PM Weaver95
Want to 'fix' Africa?

1. Get the UN out of the way.
2. Allow GM crops to be exported to the continent.
3. Allow the use of DDT and other pesticides - malaria is killing people and it's easily preventable!
4. Let them build an infrastructure! If they want to build power plants, roads, dams, power lines - quit holding up the funds and 'lamenting the loss of biodiverity' and LET THEM MOVE INTO THE 21st CENTURY!
5. Lastly, allow them to exploit thier natural resources without constant protests! Just because YOU like trees, other people shouldn't have to starve to death. You don't live there, you aren't living in poverty. STFU.

Just my .02 cents.


1. African countries are still sovereign so I don't see what the UN has to do with it.

2. GM crops won't help because large parts of Africa are suffering prolonged drought conditions. Teaching Africans low-water farming techniques is much more appropriate.

3. There is already a DDT exemption for much of Africa.

4. What the hell are you talking about? Nobody is blocking Africans from building infrastructure.

5. Again, what the hell are you talking about? Africa isn't "full of trees;" it's mostly desert and savannah with some pockets of jungle.

Your .02 cents are wrong.
 
2004-07-08 01:15:28 PM  
I'm just shocked to see Weaver95 actually caring about Africans... wow.
 
2004-07-08 01:15:40 PM  
Has anyone heard talk about the schism of American Catholics vs. Rome. I remember last year or so that there was talk about Americans splitting off from Rome but maintiaing the name Catholic. Yes I recognize that they would be Protestant then. I was wondering if there has been any movement on the thoughts?
 
2004-07-08 01:15:45 PM  
[But anyhow, I really don't think Africas problems can be blamed soley on the UN or on Greenpeace.]

International 'green' groups and the UN are the biggest thorn in africa's side these days. They keep things unstable with thier policies and the warmongers capitalize on the poverty, starvation and corrupt governments. And with most of the population of africa kept in crushing poverty and ignorance they don't know they have a right to a better life.

I can't do anything about african warlords. I can't do anything about UN corruption. And I can't do anything for people starving in zimbabwe. But I can shut down greenpeace in my local area. I can challenge the greenie lunatics whenever I see them on the net. I can keep people informed. I can let my congressman know what I think he/she should vote on or vote against.

Maybe someone will stop and think before they donate to the loonies.
 
2004-07-08 01:16:30 PM  

"These terrible crimes do not soil the entire Church, as many farkers are all too happy to believe."

Why not? They appear to be widespread and covered up to some of the highest levels of authority. If the same thing was happening with Rabbis across the country...


jebus, yes! How about if we found out that this was happening in American mosques? There wouldn't be enough empty bottles laying around for all of the molotov cocktails that would get used that night.
 
2004-07-08 01:16:35 PM  
maybe they need a loan from opus dei
 
2004-07-08 01:18:43 PM  
Weaver95

The problems in Africa aren't international authority and environmental regulations, dude. The problems in Africa are domestic warlords and dictators. The US props them up, sure, but these leaders themselves are to blame for the terrible condition of their country, from South African leaders refusing to admit that sex with a virgin doesn't cure AIDS to slavery in the Sudan to blood diamonds, blood diamonds, blood diamonds.

You really want to save Africa? There's really only one way to save it.

1. Have a giant war/revolution in which the forces of the warlords and dictators are all destroyed and extirpated by force. Exile all representatives of foreign governments and corporations who collaborated with and profited from the old regime. Conduct massive regime change on a scale never before seen. For years, comb entire territory, hunting down insurgents and executing them.
2. Stop using imaginary famine as a means of controlling the population, and begin distributing all the goods you get in humanitarian aid to the people rather than selling them to buy weapons and fund armies.
3. Use obvious, cheap, proven, safe methods to eliminate malaria, polio, etc. (rather than DDT, which is outdated and dangerous) that would have been used ages ago if only the poverty and sickness of the people weren't quite so important to the power of African governments.
4. FORCE them to build an infrastructure, rather than letting them do it themselves, because they'd never do it themselves, as they do not have the money. Alternatively, after exterminating all opposition, find native puppets to supervise the building of infrastructure with your money.
5. Lastly, stop worrying about hippies with picket signs when your real problem is mercenaries with AK-47s. Develop sound environmental policies, but enforce the will of the government and execute all opposition until you are no longer in a state of civil war.

When you are faced with Civil War, there is really no other way to solve your problems, large and small, before you decisively win the Civil War. Lincoln understood this. Most people who talk about Africa today do not.

You quickly see that the plan isn't feasible from the outside. Step one alone would cost you more money and resources than you could possibly have, even if you were the most powerful, wealthiest government force in the world. And attempting step 1, which is a necessary step, would probably set off a conflict that would destroy the human race.

Bottom line? Nothing you can do will save Africa, and none of your ideas will work so long as African governments have a vested interest in making sure Africa isn't saved. They're there, "we" are not. "Our" influence will never be strong enough to do what needs to be done.

And if you think African natural resources aren't being exploited because of environmentalists, well, I don't think you're right, because, again, the environmentalists are a lot less powerful than the people there with guns and ties to international corporations.
 
2004-07-08 01:19:09 PM  
The wife is Catholic (been to church once in that last 10 years), I am not. Our daughter came home asking about religion so we decided sh should attend a Catholic service. Luckily, it was the sombre Good Friday Mass. Our daughter never wants to go to church again.

... mission accomplished.

"Where's your messiah now see" Edward G. Robinson
 
2004-07-08 01:20:47 PM  
Weaver95: Allowing GMO crops in Africa is pointless unless you waive licensing costs. GMO crops may increase yield, but how the hell are poor nations going to pay for them? Additionally, you run into the problem of dealing with seeds that blow into fields that don't license the product. Based upon the wording of Monsanto's license for their crops, they can take possession of entire fields in that case, if the owner refuses to pay the licensing fee - regardless of whether they planted the seeds, or if the seeds simply blew into their field.
 
2004-07-08 01:21:37 PM  
[I'm just shocked to see Weaver95 actually caring about Africans... wow.]

I sort of feel sorry for the entire continent. They got to be the shadow battlefield for the US/USSR cold war conflict. I think the US and former Soviet republics owe 'em for all the damage we did while working out our ideological kinks. Since we won the cold war, it sort of behooves us to clean up our messes now that it's over.

Again, that's my my .02 cents.

[1. African countries are still sovereign so I don't see what the UN has to do with it.]

Right. Sovereign. You can be sovereign all you want, but when you're a poor country dependant on foreign aid for survival you do what the guy with the money wants done. If he says you don't build hydro-electric dams, even if dysentery is killing thousands of people a month, you don't build hydro-electrical dams.
 
2004-07-08 01:22:51 PM  
You should be ashamed: is there really not one reliable man among you to settle differences between brothers and so one brother brings a court case against another in front of unbelievers? It is bad enough for you to have lawsuits at all against one another; oughtn't you to let yourselves be wronged, and let yourselves be cheated? But you are doing the wronging and the cheating, and to your own brothers.

Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians 6:5-8
 
2004-07-08 01:23:27 PM  
this is God punishing them for refusing to give communion to Kerry supporters!
 
2004-07-08 01:24:11 PM  
[Again, that's my my .02 cents.]

Hmmm, why only $0.0002?
 
2004-07-08 01:24:40 PM  
Weaver95: Right. Sovereign. You can be sovereign all you want, but when you're a poor country dependant on foreign aid for survival you do what the guy with the money wants done. If he says you don't build hydro-electric dams, even if dysentery is killing thousands of people a month, you don't build hydro-electrical dams.

Man. The way Weaver95 is talking about sovereignty, you'd think he was talking about Iraq. ;P
 
2004-07-08 01:25:07 PM  
[ 2004-07-08 01:09:30 PM simian04


I recall overhearing a family friend talking to my parents about being an usher in the catholic church. The collection plate? The one you hard working xian folks throw your hard earned money into? Well according to him, all that money for the lords work went directly into their pockets. All of it. Every single penny. So you see, when I hear about shiat like this...about churchs filing for bankruptcy... All I can do is smile and say 'good'. The downfall of the catholic church is soooooo inevitable. I just hope I get to see it while Im alive. fark the church, fark religion and fark all the sheeple who fall for that bullshiat. ]

--------------------------------------

Thank you for your informed opinion. I mean, who knew, the Church has fooled all the United States Government auditors, and all these charitable organizations funded with this money are obviously fabricated. Thank you, simian, if it werent for you, your mom, and her friend, the usher, this bombshell would never have been dropped.


/used to count money for the church, saw where it all went
//ushers carry money, not fill out financial records
///ha!
 
2004-07-08 01:25:45 PM  
2004-07-08 01:24:40 PM raistphrk

It's common knowledge that logic escapes Weaver95 and his bastard offspring cyansis.
 
2004-07-08 01:27:48 PM  
Sparkythefarker, if I make a fortune and you become Empress of the world, I am going to either hide my property or commit regicide. If you think you're crazy, you've yet to deal with a blue-eyed Programmer Cat who values his rights above the "public good" of a society of cannibals who think that they have the right to a dime of somebody else's money.
 
2004-07-08 01:28:39 PM  
This is why, when I'm Empress of the world, no one will be allowed to make more than $1 million a year

You are welcome to your economic beliefs. You are not welcome to govern my life by them. ;-)
 
2004-07-08 01:29:26 PM  
Pardon me, but this thread is about priest giving out teh buttsex on boys, not Africa. :)
 
2004-07-08 01:29:47 PM  
[t's common knowledge that logic escapes Weaver95 ]

....and here comes the ad hominem attacks.

On that note, all this talk of starvation has made me hungry. Off to lunch!
 
2004-07-08 01:32:50 PM  
CigaretteSmokingMan, Paul of Tarsus was a bitter old prick who ruined a perfectly good death cult with Plato's bullshiat warmed over.
 
2004-07-08 01:33:15 PM  
I dunno, I think the Baptists are easily as evil as the Catholics.
 
2004-07-08 01:39:08 PM  
2004-07-08 01:33:15 PM
ghare


I dunno, I think the Baptists are easily as evil as the Catholics.


Ive always seen them as more into mind control than butting in on little kids.
 
2004-07-08 01:40:14 PM  
Programmer Cat

CigaretteSmokingMan, Paul of Tarsus was a bitter old prick who ruined a perfectly good death cult with Plato's bullshiat warmed over.


Damn, PC, why'd you come so late to the flaming? Could have used you further up :)

Seriously, I second this, and raise you with Mithras in new clothes.
 
2004-07-08 01:40:25 PM  
Let me just say this: I am a former Catholic and altar boy. As such, I can say with confidence that not all priests are pedophiles. Also, not all religious people are intolerant bastiches. Please don't put a whole group of people in the same sterotype. While the Catholic Church f'ed up, most Catholics condemn it. Make the church leaders who allowed this go to jail. Pay the families. Vow never to allow this again. Then go out and do some good. That is all.
 
2004-07-08 01:41:39 PM  
I dunno, I think the Baptists are easily as evil as the Catholics.

The only real problem with Baptists is that they don't hold them under long enough.
 
2004-07-08 01:42:34 PM  
Programmer Cat
CigaretteSmokingMan, Paul of Tarsus was a bitter old prick who ruined a perfectly good death cult with Plato's bullshiat warmed over.

I think you meant Aristotle.

/CigaretteSmokingMan - one bitter middle-aged prick himself
 
2004-07-08 01:43:54 PM  
vile little vixen just to give you a heads-up, you were being picked on for your misspelling altar boy as alter boy. The altar is the part of the church. Alter is a verb meaning to change. "TV/TS" is shorthand for transvestite/transsexual. Does it make more sense now?

anyway, I thought this was the most interesting part: Portland's Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing, planned for Tuesday afternoon, halted the trial of a lawsuit against the late Rev. Maurice Grammond, who was accused of molesting more than 50 boys in the 1980s. Grammond died in 2002. I thought you couldn't sue dead people? Do they mean the diocese is being sued? Can someone clear this up for me please?
 
2004-07-08 01:44:09 PM  
[The only real problem with Baptists is that they don't hold them under long enough.]

The classics never fail to get a chuckle out of me.
 
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