If we still have cars next decade.....

Switch to Hex?

BTW, anyone know if it's really true that there's a hidden VIN on each car, the location of which is only known by the manufacturers and FBI? I saw it on some cop drama.

So add another digit.

This story is crap. My best friend used to assign VINs, this is bogus. You can find year, make, model, factory, factory color all hidden in the VIN. It is not just a random serial number.

mizike I would say bullshiat. Too many people have worked in automotive factories over the years to keep something like that entirely hidden.

Now, there may be one that's not commonly known...everyone knows the common ones (dash, engine, door, etc.), but even those locations aren't entirely standardized.

I think KoolerThanJesus just answered FoamingPipeSnake's question. They're probably trying to figure out solutions that will make all that info more compact, leaving more digits available for simple counting.

The article states at one point that the looming shortage is due to increased production, and that they could run out by then end of the decade. But the it says the VIN system was created in 1981 and expected to last 30 years. 30 years from 1981 is 2011; sounds like they got it right, and this should be no surprise to anybody.

But the it says the VIN system was created in 1981 and expected to last 30 years. 30 years from 1981 is 2011; sounds like they got it right, and this should be no surprise to anybody.

You don't think it should be a surprise that a government estimate was almost dead on?

If new computer systems will be needed, I might get some work in the near future. Let's hope they just lengthen the VINs.

/Computer Systems Designer

mizike

Sort of - sometimes they stamp it on transmission and differentials, and other random locations. Sometimes even inside housings or door panels.

I've always wondered when or if we've already reached and/or surpassed producing enough automobiles for every man, woman, and child on earth. And they just keep making 'em--it's a circular doom.

simple, just remove SUV's from the road.

Slightly on-topic... there is always a number on the vehicle you can obtain to get a key made at the dealer, but I'm not telling where it is.

Wait - you mean my turbocharged rollerblades need a VIN?

/sucks

I have heard of hidden VIN numbers but the only ones I know for sure I have seen (unless I actually found one of the hidden ones) was,
1.dash
2.door panel
3.engine block
4.one time on the drive shaft.

apparently when the engine is changed out, the mechanic is supposed to provide proof via the engine VIN that it is a different number(?)

The Timeaus, not to upset you or nothing, but if it would wreak havoc on computer systems to add a number and the system was started up in 1981, wouldn't it be easier to just drop a number and make it an even 16?

They can keep the length. It just needs to be changed so that some of the fields that are limited to decimal numeric values can include alpha characters. There is no reason a five digit serial number can't run from 00000 through ZZZZZ. Even more combinations can be had if you add -!@#$%^&*(),./?`~=_+;:'". Then a VIN would look like Sgt. Snorkle cursing.

Better idea:

Just introduce a new scheme for numbering green alternative-fuel vehicles. By the time the old VIN numbers run out, and a new scheme should drag out the timeframe to 12-15 years as more green cars are built, we should be past making gasoline-fuelled cars.

If we all pray real hard, Jesus will make more numbers for us. Faith-based manufacturing.

Longer codes would require a major overhaul of computer systems, said Dave Proefke, chairman of the committee.

But not as bad as, say adding two year digits, really :)

We got throught that one okay, I doubt adding extra digits would really be classified as a "major overhaul" in comparison.

Come to think of it: imagine a device that was capable of generating serial numbers. You'd have one of these devices set up somewhere in the world (or perhaps several, set up redundantly), and whenever any vehicle manufacturer needed a new VIN, all they would have to to is request a new unique serial number from this device, and stamp it on their vehicle. Queries as to which VIN was assigned to which vehicle could similarily run over this device. All you need now is a device capable of this feat - you might call it a "computer" - and a method of querrying the divice from remote locations - which we could call "the innarweb thingy".

/how am I doing?

Auto manufacturers must be a bunch of dumbasses.
They aren't exactly the first industry to deal with exuastion of address space.

North American phone numbers were in short supply so Bellcore made the switching companies get rid of the archane dialing rules (such as area codes must contain a 0 or 1 in the middle digit).

When it became obvious that every idiot with an IPO wanted to assign an IP address to your left big toenail, it was time to expand the IP address space. Thus was born IPv6.

Deer Auto Industry, go read RFC2373. You'll find everything you need there.

Deer Auto Industry

I always assumed they just walked. Or sometimes pranced. Who knew they had a consumer market for cars?

Not Ireland. We have the format [year: county: number]

e.g 04 D 12345 (the 12345'th car registered in Dublin in 2004), so we'll never run out

Please stop writing "VIN number". It's redundant, and redundancy makes teh baby jeebus cry.

Isn't that for the car registration plate as opposed to the VIN?

Leecifer -

ya, and everybody stop saying TCBY yogurt...

the 'Y' in TCBY stands for yogurt already...

brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department.

labberdasher

Wait - you mean my turbocharged rollerblades need a VIN?

It's worse than that- each one needs it's own VIN.

Flashbulb

I think its on the color code chart of most GM vehicles. Our van once had the key (note the plural) in it, and, we went to the dealer, the guy went to the paperwork for the vehicle and produced a key. I asked him how did he know it would work, he told me where to look, and why.

I suspect that we will switch shortly to short range radio transponders regardless.

Radio tags are already being rolled out for myriad commercial goods across the US. They cost less than $1, with $0.05 the goal.

The tags can be read a few feet away with a specialized device, which looks up the unique number broadcast by the tag to determine, not what product is within like a bar code, but what unique item is inside. I.e., individual razor blades can be identified.

If Walmart can put transponder tags on razor blades, how come we can't put them on cars?

I say the SAE just 'left-shift' the instead of 1975456533AARKIEBOY457667890, you have something like 89723498732498743987329847GOATS.CX938734874. Perhaps something like that would work? I dunno, would it?

Ok, what idiot thinks it will take a major system overhall to add a few digits to the primary key? We are not talking about a mom and pop-five and dime. I think Ford and Nation Wide can afford to change their systems. Heck, most ERP don't even last more than five years, give them enough time and they can plan for the change in their next system.

/installed two ERP systems.

My God! Look what happened to phone numbers. Use to be 4-5 numbers, then bam!!! we went to 7, life continued.

I see people saying that there look like there are enough digits or that it would be a trivial task to add more digits or why don't we just go with a unique scheme.

Ya'll do realize that it ain't that easy. Maybe it would be trivial if you were the only auto mfgr. Or maybe it would be easy if the cops all used the same software. Or maybe it would be easy if all the dealers around the globe decided that they'd all converge on some magical number scheme. That's not the way it is, though.

I don't know any of the rules and I didn't RTFA, but I would imagine that you'd want some type of code that identifies the vehicle to some extent without having to perform a database lookup. I assume that this is already present in our current codes (all fords start with numbers between blah and blah2 or mustangs have x as the nth digit or whatever).

This makes it easier on the endish user, and that's really where the VIN has to do it's job, anyway. It's for cops to match vehicles and for buyers and sellers to positively identify that this car is what they expect this car to be.

If you went with unique sequential ID's, you wouldn't have that option. If you went with RFID, you still need the VIN in the windshield, and it needs to match what's on the registration and so on and so forth. If you start generating 1024 bit unique ID's, I *never* want to consider having to read it to DMV over the phone.

And, there are hidden VINs *all* over each car. Have been for a long time. You get to discover the implications of this if you ever build a single vehicle out of a collection of vehicles that have been registered as 'junk.' Dunno what the laws are anywhere else, but in Maine in the mid-80's, one of the cars that are being parted *better* still be registered and have a good VIN. Ours didn't, and we had to jump through hoops to get the VIN put 'back into the system' or whatever (plus, we were really high and that didn't help to get this thing registered).


At any rate, consider that some of those positions in the VIN have meaning meant to be utilized in a manual fashion, and you'll see why you can't just add a farkload of digits or reassign the whole damned namespace.

Oh, and, why isn't IPv6 taking off? I kinda figured it would have 'come out' by now.

Y2K for cars?

Isn't one Vin, one too many?

Other VIN's are on the rear axle, and on the frames. Unibody cars have another VIN stamped inside the unibody but I do not remember where... Worked with a DMV Motor Vehicle Fraud Crew once.

The VIN is always located on the dashboard. That's the only "Required" place for it. Also, the original engine and transmission always have a unique id number that is coded to the original VIN- it isn't the same number, it's usually the 6- digit chassis number (the last 6 digits of all VINs are the chassis number- meaning, the sequential number of the particular vehicle for either that model year or that chassis design (like, for example, the 1995- current Chevy Cavaliers are all one design with minor sheet metal changes. That's one chassis design. When the car is "redesigned," the clock will reset, however, the cavalier is actually one of the cars whose chassis number clock resets each year. The first 3 digits of the VIN tell you the manufacturer of the vehicle. For example, my Volkswagen has WVW as the first 3 digits. GM vehicles are always 1Gx or 2Gx (the x being a code for the brand name, e.g. Pontiac, Chevrolet, Buick, etc.) Ford's is 1FA or 2FA. That, and the chassis number are standardized, as well as the digit that indicates model year. some manufacturers, but not all, include info such as engine size or trim level (LX, EX, etc) in the VIN. I've never seen the original paint code in there.

I call Shennanigans. Think about vanity plates. They don't abide by the same rules as the standardized. There is still plenty of combos out there. They're not running out of number/letter combos.

/why am I on Fark at 10 am Saturday?

Vins tell you ALMOST everthing about the vehicle, radio codes ,colour, emission controls , recalls , etc...(i know, someone else said the same thing earlier...)

The only problem i see with the vin # is the 10th digit. It represents year on all cars a = 81 b = 82 and so on.Now we are up to 4= 2004 This is what these guys are trying to figure out.

I agreee with Juansmith just add another digit. If you need to overhaul the computer systems to handle this ,start now. You've got 4 and a half years ... Go!

Longer codes would require a major overhaul of computer systems

I say make the VIN number longer and give computer people more job security ala Y2K. We can make wild estimates of how many weeks of work it will take, do the job in a few hours, then Fark for months.

Another reason for the "hidden" VIN is to prevent deceptive sales and insurance fraud for autos/trucks.

I could go out and buy a plain jane '70 Plymouth Barracuda with a 6 cyl. engine. Then I could take out the 6 and drop in a 440 V-8 from a less collectable station wagon from that era. Then with the help of some aftermarket reproduction parts create a much more valuable car which I could try to sell. The non-matching VIN and engine code would expose it as fake.

This is all retarded. Just rotate the positions for cars after this year. If the old system was: XX11YY where X = make, 11 was year, YY was model....then the new system should be: YYXX11. If the 3rd and 4th position are letters then you know it's a newer VIN system. If they are numbers, then it's the old system. The worse you'd have to do is patch VIN recognition systems (DMV, car dealers, insurance, etc) the same way everyone patched for Y2K. They don't need more slots, they just need to rotate the ones they're using, since each slot means something different. Then they can get closer to the drunken math results above too.

WHAT THE FARK?
Start over at 00000001
the hell with cops-insurance companies.
If they don't know the difference between a "32 "Model
T" VIN or a car produced today, they are to stupid for words

meh, we were running of ip addresses too. i wonder what will prevail over "major overhaul of computer systems" or "can auto industry"

/enjoying red-shirt dusty chick

My vote is for bar codes... they come in handy for everything from product labels to identifying the members of an inferior race.

changing the vin in any way farks up the calculation of the checkdigit, in position 9

so it isn't as simple as you all seem to want to make it