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(Some Guy)   Is the 16th Amendment (income tax) valid?   (16thamendment.com) divider line 159
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5666 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Jan 2002 at 1:47 PM (12 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2002-01-18 01:49:28 PM
Not if you are a corporation.
 
bug
2002-01-18 01:50:21 PM
with enough Vasoline, you can make anyone a believer.
 
2002-01-18 01:52:49 PM
Didn't we do this last year?
 
2002-01-18 01:57:27 PM
Yeah, but it's about time for the new kids Skwidd...And they may consider it unconstitutional, but try telling that to an auditor.

3Horn
 
2002-01-18 01:58:34 PM
Here's what the Straight Dope has to say about this:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_127.html
 
2002-01-18 01:58:47 PM
I learned how to share when I was three years old. Yes it's valid.
 
2002-01-18 01:59:23 PM
Note that in the above we are counting Ohio as a state, even though it was not admitted into the Union until 1953 (retroactively, which is ex post facto, and unconstitutional).

Actually, it's only unconstitutional to change criminal law ex post facto. Cecil covered this in the Straight Dope a while back.
 
2002-01-18 02:00:55 PM
Actually this is true. We have been "coerced" into paying taxes by a heavy handed IRS since the war years. There are documented cases of people who have "volunteered out" of the system and have received documentation from the IRS that states they no longer have to file. While I have not completely satisfied myself enough to volunteer out, I do know people who have.
There is a book out there which delves deeper into this called, "Vultures in Eagles Clothing", or something like that.
 
2002-01-18 02:03:28 PM
Nitpicky whining slacker. Pay for your freedom like everyone else.
 
2002-01-18 02:05:41 PM
Tell people they have to pool for the common good of the homeless, and they're all for it. Tell them that they have to pool for the common good of themselves (somewhat), and they freak out.

I'll pay my taxes. I like having roads, policemen, public schools, fire departments, etc. I disagree with some of the things the govt. spends money on, but I do realize that it's not all my money.
 
2002-01-18 02:06:10 PM
I'd rather pay a national sales tax. This income tax stuff is too much work for me.
 
2002-01-18 02:11:58 PM
I hate the attitude that people have when they say of tax dollars 'It is, after all, MY money'.

No, it's not. You make your money by having a job, but without roads, the military, support programs to keep our society sane, that job may well not exist.
 
2002-01-18 02:14:21 PM
Sounds to me like I'm due a huge farking refund.

We should abolish the internal revenue amendment and go back to the way this country was originally funded - by tariffs on imports. The government would learn really fast that promoting trade would bring in more money.
 
2002-01-18 02:17:42 PM
9/10: "We should abolish the internal revenue amendment and go back to the way this country was originally funded - by tariffs on imports"

Yeah, then American auto workers could get even lazier.
 
2002-01-18 02:19:07 PM
9/10: How do tariffs promote trade? Don't they limit trade (econ 101)? Still, I'd rather pay a sales tax too, just easier, or even a flat tax.
 
2002-01-18 02:19:20 PM
You better keep forkin' out the bucks.

Let's suppose, though, that legally you can prove that the income tax is not valid, and that we don't have to pay it.

How will our gubmit respond?

Put yourself in their position. You are the leader of a great country. The form of government is a benevolent dictatorship, and you're the benevolent dictator. You think you're running things pretty well. Maybe some of the rabble thinks you're a jerk, but that's to be expected. Ungrateful idiots, they love to complain, but none of them bear the burden of responsibility you do. Things are going pretty well, all in all; folks have enough to eat, cars, houses, toys, and so forth are abundant. National disasters are handled effeciently, and the nation prospers.

Now some moron comes up with proof that you're not the real king, and that the whole structure should be pulled down. Proof that by its very existance refutes the legitimacy of the throne. Proof that the masses will latch onto and run with.

To their own peril. After all, you believe you're a benevolent king. What is the health, welfare, and prosperity of the entire kingdom worth? Not to mention your own position on the throne? Millions would die in the resulting chaos if this got out.

So, what's this king to do?

Yeah, you may be able to prove all of us don't have to pay income taxes? So what? Won't work.

Now, proof that *I* don't have to pay income taxes is a different story. There's no threat in that.
 
2002-01-18 02:19:28 PM
I hate the attitude that people have when they say of tax dollars 'It is, after all, MY money'.

No, it's not. You make your money by having a job, but without roads, the military, support programs to keep our society sane, that job may well not exist.


My GOD... there are so many things fundamentally wrong with that post I don't even know where to begin...
 
fb-
2002-01-18 02:19:59 PM
Idiots.
 
2002-01-18 02:20:09 PM
I had a CS prof who spent more time lecturing about this than C. He was a whack job but he knew what he was talking about
 
2002-01-18 02:20:38 PM
These arguments have been going on for years.
The lesson is that every time you give up your freedom to your government, it will never be returned. Though a tax revolt will change things quicker than armed revolution.

Also an IRS friend told me the system is on a precarious slope. If only 10% of the population (some say less) stop paying taxes, then enforcement is impossible and its effect when known increases non-payment. The US pays taxes at a very high rate. When Congress passes a sales tax in leiu of an income tax it will be that non-compliance is too high. It will told to us that fairness in the system is needed and that we need to encourage savings, etc.
 
apc
2002-01-18 02:22:40 PM
This is an old load of complete horseshiat spread by right-wing militia groups and other demented freaks. For a much more detailed explanation of the truth than the Cecil Adams column above, take a look at:
Idiot Legal Arguments

It's bad enough when fark posts stupid ideological rantings from the far left and far right. It's really creepy when memes from the same types of loonies who blew up the oklahoma city federal building and go around hunting for federal agents turn up here. The proper tag should have been "idiotic"
 
2002-01-18 02:22:58 PM
Never paid the IRS a cent, and never will. If they want money they'll have to pry it from my cold, dead, Canadian hands...
 
2002-01-18 02:23:14 PM
And Fb- comes in to save the day with the most effective argument on record. Bravo, champ!
 
2002-01-18 02:29:26 PM
Goober, that gives me a great idea. America should eliminate the income tax and just tax Canada for revenue!
 
2002-01-18 02:32:14 PM
Hey, Jeff Davis: The U.S. has one of the lowest tax rates of any industrialized nation. Cecil also covered that : http://www.straightdope.com/columns/001201.html
 
2002-01-18 02:35:14 PM
Ok MrGumbo, maybe it's not your money if your one of the 50%+ of the people in this country that don't pay any farking income tax. Course you probably also think that roads did not exist before the income tax and neither did the millitary. And as far as your beloved support programs go, try looking up some statistics on per capita poverty rates from before all those wonderful support programs and now and you will see that there are MORE people in poverty now even after spending over 5 trillion dollars on social progams alone since the 1960's.

I think the yearly federal budget is somewhere around 2 trillion dollars, thats a 2 with 12 zeros after it. That comes out to about $7000 for every man woman and child in the United States. I wonder how many more people would have jobs and not be poor if that money was left in the economy?

Government can't give you anything unless it first takes it from someone else.
 
2002-01-18 02:37:35 PM
JerseyTim: Have you seen what the Canadian dollar is at? Have you heard the term "blood from stone"?
 
2002-01-18 02:39:59 PM
Randy_ss You're right. I meant in tax compliance not rates. As long as people view their taxes as fair (biatching not included), the IRS works. When non-compliance becomes permanet, the tax code is out and sales tax will begin. Thanks.
 
2002-01-18 02:40:15 PM
01-18-02 02:29:26 PM JerseyTim
Goober, that gives me a great idea. America should eliminate the income tax and just tax Canada for revenue!


ROFL!
 
2002-01-18 02:40:22 PM
Apc Bwhahaha you biatch about post being from far right, and from far left and then you link the the ADL... Classic.
 
2002-01-18 02:41:57 PM
Right, wrong, idiotic, clever, constitutional, unconstitutional, doesn't matter. In the end, a judge has to buy that, and in the very end - if you got that far - five out of nine would have to. That will not happen. Anyone who tells you different is delusional. It's a load of garbage, anyway.
 
2002-01-18 02:42:20 PM
Has anyone ever considered how much we really pay in taxes? OK let's say you make 45,000 in California. With no deductions you pay $8,495 in federal income tax. Then you pay 3,285 in state income tax. That leaves you 33,000 to spend but if you spend it on property that has value you will pay property tax to your local government. But first you will pay sales tax to your local government for the privilege of spending your own money whether what you buy retains it's value of not. So finally your done paying taxes after paying federal income tax, state income tax, property tax and sales tax. Now go look at your phone bill, you receipt the last time you got a new battery in your car, your airline tickets, and the list goes on. All of these will mention taxes you have never even heard of.
 
2002-01-18 02:43:19 PM
In my experience, people who are truly compassionate rarely use the word "compassion." Those who do talk compassion generally intend to be compassionate with your money, not their own. It's wrong for someone to confiscate your money, give it to someone else, and call that "compassion." -- Harry Browne
 
2002-01-18 02:44:05 PM
I would put a tax on all foriegners living abroad.
 
2002-01-18 02:46:26 PM
Capigula Are you just figuring this out? Some reports list 40 to 47% of total income in taxes. Its the price of government. And do you really want SOME of these idiots in the private sector?
 
2002-01-18 02:47:15 PM
Typical politics at gun point.
 
2002-01-18 02:48:55 PM
pi = 3
 
2002-01-18 02:49:12 PM
How much do Americans pay in taxes, once you include the stuff that people in other countries get for paying their taxes?

For example, if you add in how much Americans pay for healthcare to the cost of taxes, how does that compare with the amount people in other countries pay in taxes?
 
2002-01-18 02:49:27 PM
 
2002-01-18 02:51:57 PM
This country operates under the Constitution. Whether something is or is not Unconstitutional is a decision for the Supreme Court of the United States. They get to decide. No one else does. When the Supreme Court decides that the 16th Amendment is invalid, then, and only then, will it be invalid.
 
2002-01-18 02:53:28 PM
I'd tax Raquel Welch. And I have a feeling she'd tax me.
 
2002-01-18 02:54:05 PM
"maybe it's not your money if your one of the 50%+ of the people in this country that don't pay any farking income tax. "

Excuse me Kerry, just where did you get this number?
 
2002-01-18 02:55:08 PM
Everybody talks about the weather but nobody does anything about it.
 
2002-01-18 02:55:10 PM
Jefferson Davis -
'Capigula Are you just figuring this out?'

Yes, I was reading this article and suddenly all these things occured to me out of thin air. My mind was a whirl with every time I had ever seen the word TAX on a document and bamo!!!!!!!! it came to me "Gee, I sure pay a lot of taxes"

"Its the price of government. " then I'll take the base model, please.

"And do you really want SOME of these idiots in the private sector?" I'm sure the food service industry still needs people.
 
2002-01-18 02:56:16 PM
1999 Tax Stats -

The top 1 percent of income earners now pay 36.2% of all federal income taxes. This is double their share of the tax burden from 1975. If you have any brains at all you will want to know just what share of total income this top 1 percent earned. After all, if they're earning 36.2 percent of the income then they should be paying 36.2 percent of the income taxes. That would only be fair, wouldn't it? Well, the fact is that this evil top 1 percent of income earners only earned 19.5 percent of the income in 1999. Their share of the income taxes exceeds their share of the income by almost 17 percent.


If you're in the top 5 percent of income earners your share of the income taxes paid went from 36.6 to 55.5 percent from 1975 to 1999. The top 10 percent saw their share increase from 48.7 percent to 66.5 percent. If you're in the top 25 percent you're now paying 83.5 percent of the income taxes. In 1975 you paid 72 percent. How about the top half? Your share is now at 96 percent. The bottom half pays 4 percent.
 
2002-01-18 02:56:41 PM
Eschewing Gum: How do tariffs promote trade? Don't they limit trade (econ 101)? Still, I'd rather pay a sales tax too, just easier, or even a flat tax.

Yes, high tariffs do limit trade; there is a point of diminishing returns. America has a huge appetite for imports, however, and I feel that a tariff rate, set low enough, would fund sufficient government services while not having a negative impact on trade. It would also serve to keep the growth of government in check.

I agree with you on the flat tax. It would be much better than what we have now. It's too bad that some people in Congress feel they must pit one income level against another when it comes to taxation instead of doing something smart and simple like a flat tax.
 
2002-01-18 03:00:58 PM
Dr. vile: So basically what you are say is that a guy that make $10M a year pays more in taxes than I do. Thanks for the circumlocutious explanation for something so
 
2002-01-18 03:01:46 PM
 
2002-01-18 03:03:36 PM
Actually the Constitution doesn't specificaly give the Supreme Court the sole athority to judge the constitutionality of laws. We can thank our old friend John C. Marshall for that little piece of tradition. The power to judge constitutionality rests with the people in general. Thats the idea behind jury nullification at least.
 
2002-01-18 03:04:05 PM
Are there any reliable projections about national income generated from a flat tax vs sales tax vs VAT etc. As I can't seem to find any.
 
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