Meh. This defense has been around since the mid 1800's roughly. (learned about it in my law classes: My degree is in Police Administration. and up until I got severely ill recently, worked in the law enforcement community for about a decade almost--yes I carried a gun and a badge) It's a highly controversial defense..and though we are seeing a 'surge' of it recently, its a very huge risk for the defense and defendant if they indeed try to employ this strategy. True enough, some people HAVE been acquitted using this defense, but by and large it is highly NOT accepted and the defense is better off with some other strategy (even pleading not guilty by reason of mental defect would bear greater odds for a better outcome than THIS defense..and EVEN THAT is not saying much)

yes the advancement in medical science for sleep disorders has improved and THERE are some compelling videos and studies showing people doing very odd things in their sleep, but it is still far from being TOTALLY acceptable in a court of law. Just like anything else, all factors, the totality of the circumstances must be taken into account by the individual judge/jury combinations that exist. It is literally, like most things in the criminal justice system, something that must be taken into account on a case by case basis.

That whole thing being said (sorry I bored some of you..I will go back to lurking shortly) Meh. Its just something that comes up from time to time, especially when cases about it come up and the defense is successfully employed or successfully prosecuted. Its just a more unusual type of defense that catches attention BECAUSE it is so uncommon. and yes. MEH. fearmongering :P

/back to my regularly scheduled lurking.
//sorry for any typos or whatever. I am too MEH to spell and grammar check
///i like slashies
////slashy slash

oh and I almost forgot. xD Though some cases seem very compelling and can MAYBE seem like it is a valid defense at some point, the majority of cases I've seen or read about (as in science shows, legal journals, crime journals) are just..well....excuses: a way to try and circumvent responsibility for horrific crimes. Kind of like: the dog ate my homework, or such and such MADE me do it.

They are MOSTLY full of crap!

/ok ok really back to lurking
//more slashies

The defense (new window) has been tried numerous times. It's hit or miss, sometimes winning, sometimes not. One Canadian, Kenneth Parks man drove 14 miles to kill his in-laws and was freed. A guy in Arizona, Scott Falater, is spending the rest of his life in prison for killing his wife.

Paris1127: The defense (new window) has been tried numerous times. It's hit or miss, sometimes winning, sometimes not. One Canadian, Kenneth Parks man drove 14 miles to kill his in-laws and was freed. A guy in Arizona, Scott Falater, is spending the rest of his life in prison for killing his wife.

FTFM

If proven true, it strikes at the heart of the definition of crime. To have a crime, you have to have the criminal act, the INTENT to do the criminal act, and a concurrence of the two. The "sleepwalking" defense, if believed, eliminates the intent (Mens Rea).

1. Go to doctor
2. Get a script for Ambien
3. Profit?

I have woken up outside my apartment before. I have woken up in the kitchen. I have woken up on the couch after knowing I fell asleep in bed. I have been told I one time punched my boyfriend- I have no recollection. I've been told I sometimes ramble on and on- with no recollection. So yeah, I do things in my sleep. Whether or not I'd actually kill someone, thats debatable. I'd like to think my moral compass is still alert even if Im not.

/not so cool of a story, bro

Winterstar: If proven true, it strikes at the heart of the definition of crime. To have a crime, you have to have the criminal act, the INTENT to do the criminal act, and a concurrence of the two. The "sleepwalking" defense, if believed, eliminates the intent (Mens Rea).

But what if you had the intent beforehand? For example, say I kill my mother whilst sleepwalking. If I had expressed a desire to kill her in the past (or words to that effect), would that provide the requisite mens rea?

I only ask because I haven't taken criminal law in a year, and have thankfully forgotten it.

It depends on whether you're paid to sleep on the job.

And you are a hit man.

spartacus_prime: But what if you had the intent beforehand? For example, say I kill my mother whilst sleepwalking. If I had expressed a desire to kill her in the past (or words to that effect), would that provide the requisite mens rea?

I only ask because I haven't taken criminal law in a year, and have thankfully forgotten it.

IMHO, it would be the mens rea in the eyes of a jury. A good defense lawyer could argue to the contrary...but I doubt it would be accepted.

If proven true, it strikes at the heart of the definition of crime. To have a crime, you have to have the criminal act, the INTENT to do the criminal act, and a concurrence of the two. The "sleepwalking" defense, if believed, eliminates the intent (Mens Rea).

Tell that to the legislators who write strict liability laws... Import a few rare orchids improperly documented and it's slammer for you even without intent.

That said, I should hope they lock me up if I kill my wife while sleepwalking.

I used to sleep walk and get violent when I was younger. It's a very real possibility someone could kill another.

The asshole in Canada who got away with this, raping some poor woman?
Holy shiit, what's the world come to when a judge or jury could believe a guy RAPES a chick from start to finish with her screaming and he was asleep? I don't farking think so.

BUT if it's true, then sentence them anyway since obviously they could easily re-offend...because EVENTUALLY THEY'VE GOTTA GO TO SLEEP AGAIN.

Many years ago, mr brother's friend was sleeping over. I was a light sleeper at the time. I awoke to a dark silouette with its arm directly over my face. My rationale was "incapicitate first, ask questions later." Luckily enough for me, (I was about 15, he was about 9) the parents knew he had a sleepwalking disorder, and didn't pursue charges, given the circumstances.

Sometimes I doze off during long meetings at work. I just want that on the record in case I wake up in a conference room full of corpses and have no recollection whatsoever of what happened.

Sedate them and put them in jail. Since it was the sleeping mind that committed the crime jail that.

What about siamese twins? What if one was sleepwalking and the other was awake? Do they both rot in prison? What if they were crossing the international date line?

davynelson: The asshole in Canada who got away with this, raping some poor woman?
Holy shiit, what's the world come to when a judge or jury could believe a guy RAPES a chick from start to finish with her screaming and he was asleep? I don't farking think so.

BUT if it's true, then sentence them anyway since obviously they could easily re-offend...because EVENTUALLY THEY'VE GOTTA GO TO SLEEP AGAIN.

I agree. Like the guy who killed his mother in law, after driving down the highway for 20 minutes in his sleep...

That's the creepiest thing ever... My friend's dad had "night terrors" and had a freak out when her 5-year old daughter was there one night and scared the living fark out of her for a while. Niiice... So the guy's not responsible, but the kid is scarred for life.

As someone who eats,smokes,walks and drives in my sleep on a pretty regular basis I am just happy to have never commited a crime while doing so, at least as far as I know.

StreetlightInTheGhetto: 1. Go to doctor
2. Get a script for Ambien
3. Profit?

Ambien has the potential to make it worse. I was prescribed Ambien, and fell victim to one of its side effects: sleep-cooking. I woke up to find my kitchen a mess, and a bunch of horrible food in the fridge. I talked to the doctor about it, and he immediately canceled the prescription. He also said "Good thing you don't have a car. Another side effect is sleep-driving."

davynelson: The asshole in Canada who got away with this, raping some poor woman?
Holy shiit, what's the world come to when a judge or jury could believe a guy RAPES a chick from start to finish with her screaming and he was asleep? I don't farking think so.

BUT if it's true, then sentence them anyway since obviously they could easily re-offend...because EVENTUALLY THEY'VE GOTTA GO TO SLEEP AGAIN.


Sooner or later...

/freddy krueger mellencamp FTW

I've had pretty bad trouble sleepwalking since I've been able to walk. Not much sucks worse than trying to find something you need for a job or a class and waking up in the morning to find out you've stuck it somewhere like up a chimney during the night or hid it so well you never find it. Still missing money, wallets, homework and other important stuff.

clueyee: yes the advancement in medical science for sleep disorders has improved and THERE are some compelling videos and studies showing people doing very odd things in their sleep, but it is still far from being TOTALLY acceptable in a court of law. Just like anything else, all factors, the totality of the circumstances must be taken into account by the individual judge/jury combinations that exist. It is literally, like most things in the criminal justice system, something that must be taken into account on a case by case basis.

The main factor is whether it's TRUE or not.

I mean, there's zero truly objective scientific evidence proving anything during or after the fact. You can claim whatever you want, and it could potentially excuse you from just about anything.

The brain scans are open to junk science. Anyone can claim to recognize a brain scan pattern read in a sleep clinic indicates anything. It may be "true" or maybe not or somewhere in between. The science behind it borders on pseudoscience since there's a lack of comprehensive database of brain scans of the general population under different conditions and any association is a purely subjective interpretation based primarily upon belief, even if they make up some numbers and assign the scan some spectacular pseudocolors to describe it.

The judicial system is skeptical because they don't want people to be left open to murdering people and all they have to do is present an Ambien prescription and claim they took it before murdering their family and could I PLEASE collect my insurance payout now?

I dreamed last night I was cooking this big turkey in the oven...

Say, where's the baby?

ABC news is flawless in every way how dare you criticize them. Only FOX news says stupid things and everyone knows it. If you dislike ABC or CNN or MSNBC then clearly you are an idiot because ONLY FOX NEWS EVER REPORTS ON ANYTHING NOT WORTH REPORTING AND/OR MAKES THINGS UP.
Duh. That's the Fark way.

You sure can, I had to make a court appearance for an bad accident that I apparently caused while driving in my sleep (no, it wasn't Ambien). Fortunately, the other guy didn't show up to court and all charges were dismissed for lack of witnesses.

davynelson: The asshole in Canada who got away with this, raping some poor woman?
Holy shiit, what's the world come to when a judge or jury could believe a guy RAPES a chick from start to finish with her screaming and he was asleep? I don't farking think so.

BUT if it's true, then sentence them anyway since obviously they could easily re-offend...because EVENTUALLY THEY'VE GOTTA GO TO SLEEP AGAIN.

What we should really do is throw all the judged innocent in jail anyway, because they COULD have done it. Or better yet,throw everyone in prison!

I talk in my sleep. Full conversations. I don't recollect what I say.

Cheery Pi: I have woken up outside my apartment before. I have woken up in the kitchen. I have woken up on the couch after knowing I fell asleep in bed. I have been told I one time punched my boyfriend- I have no recollection. I've been told I sometimes ramble on and on- with no recollection. So yeah, I do things in my sleep. Whether or not I'd actually kill someone, thats debatable. I'd like to think my moral compass is still alert even if Im not.

/not so cool of a story, bro

Jen? Jennifer Aniston? is that you?.....

Nimnom: davynelson: The asshole in Canada who got away with this, raping some poor woman?
Holy shiit, what's the world come to when a judge or jury could believe a guy RAPES a chick from start to finish with her screaming and he was asleep? I don't farking think so.

BUT if it's true, then sentence them anyway since obviously they could easily re-offend...because EVENTUALLY THEY'VE GOTTA GO TO SLEEP AGAIN.

What we should really do is throw all the judged innocent in jail anyway, because they COULD have done it. Or better yet,throw everyone in prison!


You aren't getting it. That the guy did the acts is not in doubt. He did it. The question is whether he was "responsible" for the action.

My view is that either way such folk need jail. There's two options here:
1) They're lying about sleepwalking crimes, in which case they're fully responsible.
2) They're telling the truth and were asleep, but in this case they're still a danger to society. Call it the insanity defense. Either way, the person should not be free.

If the person did not do the action, then yes, the person is innocent and should be set free. But "I was asleep" just tells me that you're likely to be a danger to those around you the next time you get some shuteye.

akula: Nimnom: davynelson: The asshole in Canada who got away with this, raping some poor woman?
Holy shiit, what's the world come to when a judge or jury could believe a guy RAPES a chick from start to finish with her screaming and he was asleep? I don't farking think so.

BUT if it's true, then sentence them anyway since obviously they could easily re-offend...because EVENTUALLY THEY'VE GOTTA GO TO SLEEP AGAIN.

What we should really do is throw all the judged innocent in jail anyway, because they COULD have done it. Or better yet,throw everyone in prison!


You aren't getting it. That the guy did the acts is not in doubt. He did it. The question is whether he was "responsible" for the action.

My view is that either way such folk need jail. There's two options here:
1) They're lying about sleepwalking crimes, in which case they're fully responsible.
2) They're telling the truth and were asleep, but in this case they're still a danger to society. Call it the insanity defense. Either way, the person should not be free.

If the person did not do the action, then yes, the person is innocent and should be set free. But "I was asleep" just tells me that you're likely to be a danger to those around you the next time you get some shuteye.

Unless the person has been proven to be negligent in treating or recognizing their disorder, I hardly think it is a fair thing to lock someone up over that. At most I would state that they would be responsible for involuntary manslaughter which would maybe involve some jail time or parole with some conditions to be met as far as treatment or prevention of such episodes.

If they were aware of the problem and had never sought treatment for it or sought treatment and ignored guidelines on how to control it then I'd bump it up to Negligent Homicide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSc3smOXOd4

The Kinks, Sleepwalker

/Ray Davies rocks!

InfamousBLT: ABC news is flawless in every way how dare you criticize them. Only FOX news says stupid things and everyone knows it. If you dislike ABC or CNN or MSNBC then clearly you are an idiot because ONLY FOX NEWS EVER REPORTS ON ANYTHING NOT WORTH REPORTING AND/OR MAKES THINGS UP.
Duh. That's the Fark way.

Butthurt troll is butthurt.

Cheeses H Rice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSc3smOXOd4

The Kinks, Sleepwalker

/Ray Davies rocks

i see your "sleepwalker" by the Kinks,
and raise you
"Sleepwalkers" by Van Der Graaf Generator

Link (new window)

/Peter Hammill rocks!

Cool!

akula:
My view is that either way such folk need jail. There's two options here:
1) They're lying about sleepwalking crimes, in which case they're fully responsible.
2) They're telling the truth and were asleep, but in this case they're still a danger to society. Call it the insanity defense. Either way, the person should not be free.


To borrow from one of my favorite 80s bumper stickers:

SLEEPWALKING IS NOT A CRIME.


I don't relish the thought that there are Americans out there that would have me locked away for life for something I cannot control, all because I occasionally sleepwalk.

E.S.Q.: I don't relish the thought that there are Americans out there that would have me locked away for life for something I cannot control, all because I occasionally sleepwalk.

There's a bit of difference between simple sleepwalking and assault, battery, rape, and murder. If you harm someone while sleepwalking, YOU are at fault, and criminally so. If you do it once, you may well do it again. At the very least you will require medical examination and treatment.

dragyne: Unless the person has been proven to be negligent in treating or recognizing their disorder, I hardly think it is a fair thing to lock someone up over that. At most I would state that they would be responsible for involuntary manslaughter which would maybe involve some jail time or parole with some conditions to be met as far as treatment or prevention of such episodes.

The first time I could see probation predicated upon medical treatment, inpatient if necessary. If it happens a second time, your precautions aren't enough.



If you cannot control yourself, it is YOUR problem, and refusal or inability to control yourself can cause serious harm to others. You may not have had criminal motives, but that isn't going to make your victim any less injured.

Ambien is a nasty piece of work. My SO has trouble sleeping and sometimes uses it. He's done the sleep-eating and sleep-cooking. He's even done sleep-showering. He also thrashes around in bed body slamming and kicking me. It doesn't hurt but it does jolt you awake.

Assuming we can figure out how to reliably tell the liars from the honest, if someone kills/seriously harms someone else in their sleep:

- If they never had any indication that they were doing things while sleeping that could end up hurting someone, they don't get jail, they get some serious treatment.

- If they knew that they were dangerous while sleeping, or knew of anything that could cause them to be (e.g. medications), they get some serious treatment jail time, depending on what happened and what they should/could have done, and in the case of medications causing the issue, whether they had been informed of the potential trouble.

- If they were receiving treatment or medications that should have remedied the problems but didn't, then sadly stronger measures need to be taken for the sake of the public. No jail, but probably a long term stay at an institution.

/ Opinion, obviously.

clueyee: Meh. This defense has been around since the mid 1800's roughly. (learned about it in my law classes: My degree is in Police Administration. and up until I got severely ill recently, worked in the law enforcement community for about a decade almost--yes I carried a gun and a badge) It's a highly controversial defense..and though we are seeing a 'surge' of it recently, its a very huge risk for the defense and defendant if they indeed try to employ this strategy. True enough, some people HAVE been acquitted using this defense, but by and large it is highly NOT accepted and the defense is better off with some other strategy (even pleading not guilty by reason of mental defect would bear greater odds for a better outcome than THIS defense..and EVEN THAT is not saying much)

yes the advancement in medical science for sleep disorders has improved and THERE are some compelling videos and studies showing people doing very odd things in their sleep, but it is still far from being TOTALLY acceptable in a court of law. Just like anything else, all factors, the totality of the circumstances must be taken into account by the individual judge/jury combinations that exist. It is literally, like most things in the criminal justice system, something that must be taken into account on a case by case basis.

That whole thing being said (sorry I bored some of you..I will go back to lurking shortly) Meh. Its just something that comes up from time to time, especially when cases about it come up and the defense is successfully employed or successfully prosecuted. Its just a more unusual type of defense that catches attention BECAUSE it is so uncommon. and yes. MEH. fearmongering :P

/back to my regularly scheduled lurking.
//sorry for any typos or whatever. I am too MEH to spell and grammar check
///i like slashies
////slashy slash

I got a DUI charge after I fell asleep alone in my apartment. I usually sleep in my day clothes and at the time I was sleeping on a coach. It was a pull-out and my girlfriend and I just used that but she left about a month before. My sleepwalking is exacerbated by stress and alcohol use. I knew this so that defense wouldn't help much except for the plea deal.

And guess what my dad does for a living.
/he has a respiratory therapy degree, both his parents died from cancer, and he smokes
/his sister is an oncology nurse who stopped smoking after she got cancer
/I have asthma and still smoke some times