I stay home with my sons full time. Bigotry abounds.

And then these women complain that they get paid less than men...

Epsilon: And then these women complain that they get paid less than men...

They want to make the part time commitment, get the full time pay and benefits, and then feel morally superior to men because they're claiming that their gonads mean they're better able to empathize with children and that's why they made those choices.

Which is all such utter bullshiat.

All you're seeing here is the combination of the echoes of the '50s mindset combined with rising feminism that has given women a sense of entitlement. Men think they're supposed to work full-time, women think they're supposed to be family-oriented. This would be pretty much fine, except that now women are wondering why their wages are lower and blaming everything but their own choices.

Last study I saw that normalized for time off for sickness/maternity/etc, and for aggression in pursuing wages and raises, showed that there was no longer a wage gap between genders. The reason it keeps getting mentioned is because biased organizations keep doing more studies while refusing to include those measures.

Equality is there. Act equal, and it's yours.

I'm a SAHD, so I'll be getting a kick out of these replies

Thorak: Men think they're supposed to work full-time, women think they're supposed to be family-oriented. This would be pretty much fine, except that now women are wondering why their wages are lower and blaming everything but their own choices.

Well, they might blame their own choices, or we could all take a quick glance at a business culture that expects single-minded devotion to a shiatty job at the expense of all else -- and if you have other priorities, you will get passed up for promotion, and be first in line to get laid off.

Mandatory 3% annual growth is killing us all.

Zagloba: Thorak: Men think they're supposed to work full-time, women think they're supposed to be family-oriented. This would be pretty much fine, except that now women are wondering why their wages are lower and blaming everything but their own choices.

Well, they might blame their own choices, or we could all take a quick glance at a business culture that expects single-minded devotion to a shiatty job at the expense of all else -- and if you have other priorities, you will get passed up for promotion, and be first in line to get laid off.

Mandatory 3% annual growth is killing us all.

Having a family is not a right. If you want one, pay for it accordingly.

im a single full-custody father with a full time job so i'm getting a kick out of these replies...

nlscb: Zagloba: Thorak: Men think they're supposed to work full-time, women think they're supposed to be family-oriented. This would be pretty much fine, except that now women are wondering why their wages are lower and blaming everything but their own choices.

Well, they might blame their own choices, or we could all take a quick glance at a business culture that expects single-minded devotion to a shiatty job at the expense of all else -- and if you have other priorities, you will get passed up for promotion, and be first in line to get laid off.

Mandatory 3% annual growth is killing us all.

Having a family is not a right. If you want one, pay for it accordingly.

Right! The human race was doing just fine before families came along, we should go back to being cogs in giant corporations, like all of our ancestors!

Zagloba: Thorak: Mandatory 3% annual growth is killing us all.

Mandatory 3% annual growth is mandatory because there would be no reason to invest in a business that could not provide that. Your money would be better off in a bank.

nlscb: Well, they might blame their own choices, or we could all take a quick glance at a business culture that expects single-minded devotion to a shiatty job at the expense of all else -- and if you have other priorities, you will get passed up for promotion, and be first in line to get laid off.

Mandatory 3% annual growth is killing us all.

Having a family is not a right. If you want one, pay for it accordingly.

So much this.

There are some terrible jobs out there and a fascism-like loyalty to any position is definitely not acceptable, but you choose to make a family and thusly you should have to accept the consequences when you do.

/moral of the story: stop making babies just because you can.

I'm a full time at-home alone, child to a single, full-time working dad so I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

Esc7: Right! The human race was doing just fine before families came along, we should go back to being cogs in giant corporations, like all of our ancestors!

You miss the point... having a job in corporate isn't a right either. They exist to make money. Experience goes to show that hiring men is a better investment than hiring women so they pay accordingly. Men generally don't take long periods of paid leave to have kids, men generally don't quit their job to raise kids, and men generally don't file sexual harassment lawsuits.

Free country, free market. You don't like it you don't have to work for anyone.

Don't even get me started on this subject...

BobaFeet: I'm a full time at-home alone, child to a single, full-time working dad so I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

Where do you live, and when does your daddy work?

/hoping you're kidding

Is this the "Bitter Divorced Men" meeting?

/why, yes I am

Thorak: Epsilon: And then these women complain that they get paid less than men...

They want to make the part time commitment, get the full time pay and benefits, and then feel morally superior to men because they're claiming that their gonads mean they're better able to empathize with children and that's why they made those choices.

Which is all such utter bullshiat.

All you're seeing here is the combination of the echoes of the '50s mindset combined with rising feminism that has given women a sense of entitlement. Men think they're supposed to work full-time, women think they're supposed to be family-oriented. This would be pretty much fine, except that now women are wondering why their wages are lower and blaming everything but their own choices.

Last study I saw that normalized for time off for sickness/maternity/etc, and for aggression in pursuing wages and raises, showed that there was no longer a wage gap between genders. The reason it keeps getting mentioned is because biased organizations keep doing more studies while refusing to include those measures.

Equality is there. Act equal, and it's yours.

You've gotten the whole thing almost entirely wrong. You seem to think there are throngs of women expecting full-time benefits for part-time work, which is simply, demonstrably, untrue. And the fact that society expects women to be family-oriented while it expects men to work full time is most definitely NOT fine. In fact, it's the exact mindset that makes people men feel guilty if they stay at home with the kids, and causes women to feel guilty no matter whether they're at work or at home. It's the mindset you should be rejecting outright, if you want to put your money where your mouth is.

If this is as good as it gets: if you think women have no basis to complain about the expectations on them at home and in the workplace, the job insecurity caused by trying to be the primary caretaker as well as working outside the home, then surely it's also time for men to quit whining about the "war on fatherhood," as well. If this is what equal looks like, then both men and women ought to cut out the whining and accept the inherent inequities of this "equality."

I am a part time working mom so i'm getting a kick yadda yadda

Thorak: Epsilon: And then these women complain that they get paid less than men...

They want to make the part time commitment, get the full time pay and benefits, and then feel morally superior to men because they're claiming that their gonads mean they're better able to empathize with children and that's why they made those choices.

Which is all such utter bullshiat.

All you're seeing here is the combination of the echoes of the '50s mindset combined with rising feminism that has given women a sense of entitlement. Men think they're supposed to work full-time, women think they're supposed to be family-oriented. This would be pretty much fine, except that now women are wondering why their wages are lower and blaming everything but their own choices.

Last study I saw that normalized for time off for sickness/maternity/etc, and for aggression in pursuing wages and raises, showed that there was no longer a wage gap between genders. The reason it keeps getting mentioned is because biased organizations keep doing more studies while refusing to include those measures.

Equality is there. Act equal, and it's yours.

the real problem that crept in is that what one salary used to get for a family, two can't anymore...

Mimic_Octopus: the real problem that crept in is that what one salary used to get for a family, two can't anymore...

Could it be because the workforce doubled?

bandy: Mimic_Octopus: the real problem that crept in is that what one salary used to get for a family, two can't anymore...

Could it be because the workforce doubled?

THIS. Feminism flooded the workplace with additional labor, thus wages became depressed. You think that's bad, wait until the robots take your job.

Hey, did you know that males do worse in basic education than females? Only makes sense, women are more mature.

Did you know that there are more girls in medicine now than males? Only makes sense, women are more empathetic.

Did you know that females outlive their male counterparts?
Only makes sense, women are more healthy.

Did you know that males > females at X?farking inhumane!

I have 50% custody of my kids and have full time 50-60 hour a week job. I feel very fortunate that I work in a field where work can be done remotely and for a company that allows my hours to be extremely flexible. When my kids are with me I get to focus on them, the rest of the time I can focus on work.

I believe my kids have benefited greatly from this arrangement. The 2.5 weekday nights they are with me (thurs, fri and alternating wed) the time feels more finite than when I lived with their mother, it makes it easier to put my foot down to work and let them know I will be busy that night, at least until 9:00.

That being said, I often have them late into sunday (her day) because she works retail. I love my kids and I love to spend the time with them that I do by Monday I am really ready to get back in the office. The fulfilment I get from raising my kids to be curious, intelligent and decent people can not be matched. But what I get from work, besides the money, is uniquely fulfiling too.

82% of moms want to work part time
20% of dads want to work part time
97% of single people with no kids want to work part time

kids make you not want to be around them all the goddamn time

/love my kids
//but sometimes, jeeeeesssuuussss...

The gender/pay gap is a myth. Use a hospital for example. More me are doctors then women, more nurses and admin are women. Who gets paid more? So when everything is averaged OMG men get paid more than women!!!
It has been illegal for many years to pay men and women different wages for the same work (adjustments for experience and such are a difference).

TheAthiestChaplin: Esc7: Right! The human race was doing just fine before families came along, we should go back to being cogs in giant corporations, like all of our ancestors!

You miss the point... having a job in corporate isn't a right either. They exist to make money. Experience goes to show that hiring men is a better investment than hiring women so they pay accordingly. Men generally don't take long periods of paid leave to have kids, men generally don't quit their job to raise kids, and men generally don't file sexual harassment lawsuits.

Free country, free market. You don't like it you don't have to work for anyone.

That is a very nice argument that sounds perfectly logical. Unfortunately it is completely illegal to lower someone's pay because they belong to a gender group that have individuals more likely to take maternity leave, leave their career to raise kids, or file sexual harassment lawsuits.

I imagine if you applied statistics to racial groups you could find at least one difference between two groups that would impact the bottom line. Does that mean you should take prospective employee's race into consideration and offer them different salaries based upon it?

Even though it isn't entirely "economically rational" to have an egalitarian pay system based only on past experiences on the individual level, it is considered to be important by society and we have implemented it at the federal level.

Now I'm just arguing that we SHOULD offer employees of equal skill equal pay, I know full well that it is impossible to police such things because evaluation of skill is ultimately qualitative except for a few outlying cases. I have absolutely no idea how to fix that.

I do know that while the gender pay gap exists it will be a rallying cry of feminists for the law to meddle more in the workings of business. The only way to stop them is to demonstrably show that women are offered the same opportunity as men, for the same amount of skill.

/I also think men should get just as much maternity leave and nip those arguments in the bud

Spud Boy: bandy: Mimic_Octopus: the real problem that crept in is that what one salary used to get for a family, two can't anymore...

Could it be because the workforce doubled?

THIS. Feminism flooded the workplace with additional labor, thus wages became depressed. You think that's bad, wait until the robots take your job.

heh, really funny you mention that... i used to commute on the turnpike in SE Fla. One day there was a big orange box in the toll lane and the old lady that used to give me my ticket was standing outside her booth watching the machine as it spit out tickets. So not only will they replace people with machines, they expect us to do QA during our own 'phase out' //I told her she should run the machine over with a truck at the end of her shift.

RickRR: The gender/pay gap is a myth. Use a hospital for example. More me are doctors then women, more nurses and admin are women. Who gets paid more? So when everything is averaged OMG men get paid more than women!!!
It has been illegal for many years to pay men and women different wages for the same work (adjustments for experience and such are a difference).

The "70 cents for every man's dollar" study was rigged. A good friend of mine was involved in their data crunching.

Mimic_Octopus: So not only will they replace people with machines, they expect us to do QA during our own 'phase out' //I told her she should run the machine over with a truck at the end of her shift.

And if they can't yet replace you with a machine, they'll replace you with imported (H1) labor and expect you to train them how to do your job.

/Then they will complain that you aren't buying their goods and services anymore.

"the real problem that crept in is that what one salary used to get for a family, two can't anymore...


could it be that SOME people need to learn to live within their means. How many of these "have to have" to incomes really need to scale back? We lived off 1 income because of our choices. Know we have two incomes because of our choices.

Then you ad to many single moms by choice because they forget that guys are not the only one that needs to keep their pants up.

I really get tired of women biatching about this stuff. It is their choices. Also, if a guy stepped of the career path and moved to a care taker path what happens? He gets lower pay unless he returns to a higher paying yet risker job.

Wow, a lot of dateless wonders in this thread.

Mimic_Octopus:

the real problem that crept in is that what one salary used to get for a family, two can't anymore...

That's because you want more "stuff (lifestyle.)" Try cutting back on the cable, dinner out multiple times a week, your $4 coffee, your $10 daily lunch, multiple vehicles....and live like families did when one wage-earner was enough.

Esc7: ... it is considered to be important by society and we have implemented it at the federal level.

...

uhhh, what some fringe element in a few countries has won in court, is not by any means 'considered to be important by society'. the world over ask any woman if she wants to have to take a job and they say no. but good luck with your 4 cars, pool and shoe and makeup addiction while some immigrant with a different culture actually raises your family.

Women these days have serious entitlement issues. It almost makes me think the Muslims have it right when it comes to treating women.

You give them a little and all they want is more, more, more and the reason is always the same..."Because I deserve it".

bandy: The "70 cents for every man's dollar" study was rigged. A good friend of mine was involved in their data crunching.

LOL details, please. I'm dying to hear.

Pay gap explained...

"It shows that, of those in full-time work, 7.1% of men and 26.8% of women worked between 30 and 39 hours, whereas 40.2% of men and 19.8% of women worked over 50 hours per week. "

Link (new window)

here4few: "the real problem that crept in is that what one salary used to get for a family, two can't anymore...


could it be that SOME people need to learn to live within their means. How many of these "have to have" to incomes really need to scale back? We lived off 1 income because of our choices. Know we have two incomes because of our choices.

Then you ad to many single moms by choice because they forget that guys are not the only one that needs to keep their pants up.

I really get tired of women biatching about this stuff. It is their choices. Also, if a guy stepped of the career path and moved to a care taker path what happens? He gets lower pay unless he returns to a higher paying yet risker job.

i make almost a 100 grand a year and i cant get a decent home reasonable close to a downtown worth living near for under half a farking million dollars !!! sure i could get some bank to loan me HALF A MILLION DOLLARS !! (why do people say five hundred thousand, do they feel like they got less ripped off?) ...but i'd like to actually, you know, get it for the cost of land/labor/supplies plus some mark up. not half a million bucks for a some dry wall hung by illegal labor.

Call me a crazy, but it would be nice to see the family structure supported by coporate policy, rather than forcing people to make a choice between having a family and having a career.

Maybe maternity friendly leave policies, paternity leave (not unheard of), coporate subsidies for corporate single moms, mandatory company daycares for larger corporations, the like.

The building block of society is the family; only in a healthy family can you properly socialize children to become cognitively capable, functioning adults. Theres a buttload of evidence supporting that proper care of kids in their early years is key to healthy mental development.

/never been held

I'm confused. I'm a married, full-time working dad. I'd like to not work at all. Wouldn't everyone?

unit63: bandy: The "70 cents for every man's dollar" study was rigged. A good friend of mine was involved in their data crunching.

LOL details, please. I'm dying to hear.


Google "Global warming data fraud." It's been in the news all week. Same mindset.

unit63: bandy: The "70 cents for every man's dollar" study was rigged. A good friend of mine was involved in their data crunching.

LOL details, please. I'm dying to hear.

My friend had full access to the data and the raw figures were very close to equality. They fudged things (equating dissimilar jobs) until they reached their foregone conclusion of 7/10ths pay.

patent holder: Mimic_Octopus:

the real problem that crept in is that what one salary used to get for a family, two can't anymore...

That's because you want more "stuff (lifestyle.)" Try cutting back on the cable, dinner out multiple times a week, your $4 coffee, your $10 daily lunch, multiple vehicles....and live like families did when one wage-earner was enough.

i'm not a 'stuff' person. no cable/ job pays internet. dont drink coffee, if i did, i'd make. dont eat out i used to chef. have one old truck that i got for a few grand cash. job covers cell phone too. THERE ARE JUST NO HOMES WORTH A HALF MILLION DOLLARS !! but thats what these farkers are borrowing to get...

Esc7: I also think men should get just as much maternity leave and nip those arguments in the bud

I hate that! Why don't men get aleast get alittle time off after the birth of a child. I was in labor for 4 day and then had a c-section that went very wrong. After I got out of the hospital I needed his help BAD alest for a couple days.
/I agree somethings are messed up on both sides
//even though it is illegal to not give a woman her job back when she returns, it happenend to me
///cool stroy and such

A close analysis, however, reveals that much of this gap is due to non-discriminatory factors:

* Weekly vs. hourly wages. Women typically work fewer hours a week than men. When you compare hourly wages, almost one-third of the gap disappears.

* Education, experience, occupation, union status. A 1997 study shows that men's educational and experience levels are currently greater than women's and that men gravitate toward industries and occupations that are higher-paying than women, including union jobs. These factors reduce the remaining wage gap by 62 percent.

The remaining 6.2 cents of the gap, which is unexplained, is the maximum that can be attributed to wage discrimination. Some of this unexplained portion might be due to the difficulties involved in accounting for the effects of childbearing on women's wages. For example, women aged 27 to 33 who have never had children earn a median hourly wage that is 98 percent of men's.

Link (new window)

lordaction: Women these days have serious entitlement issues. It almost makes me think the Muslims have it right when it comes to treating women.

You give them a little and all they want is more, more, more and the reason is always the same..."Because I deserve it".

I bolded the clues to your hypocrisy for you.

nlscb: Zagloba: Thorak: Men think they're supposed to work full-time, women think they're supposed to be family-oriented. This would be pretty much fine, except that now women are wondering why their wages are lower and blaming everything but their own choices.

Well, they might blame their own choices, or we could all take a quick glance at a business culture that expects single-minded devotion to a shiatty job at the expense of all else -- and if you have other priorities, you will get passed up for promotion, and be first in line to get laid off.

Mandatory 3% annual growth is killing us all.

Having a family is not a right. If you want one, pay for it accordingly.

Having a JOB is not a RIGHT. If you want someone to pay you, work for it, or work for yourself.

bandy: unit63: bandy: The "70 cents for every man's dollar" study was rigged. A good friend of mine was involved in their data crunching.

LOL details, please. I'm dying to hear.

My friend had full access to the data and the raw figures were very close to equality. They fudged things (equating dissimilar jobs) until they reached their foregone conclusion of 7/10ths pay.

Guess what? We ALL have access to the data, dumbass. That "study" has been replicated year after year since the BLS has been collecting it.

Your stupid. It ouches me.

unit63: bandy: The "70 cents for every man's dollar" study was rigged. A good friend of mine was involved in their data crunching.

LOL details, please. I'm dying to hear.

If you look at men and women working in the same industries with similar education and experience levels the wage gap virtually disappears. It's not so much that women are discriminated against it's that career decisions that men and women make result in a wage gap. For example, men generally feel more pressure to be the "breadwinners" in a family, this means men are more likely to work more hours and pursue careers that pay more, even if they are more dangerous, less fulfilling, etc. Meanwhile women typically don't feel this pressure to the extent men do and may pursue careers that are more fulfilling but pay less (childcare, writing, cooking, etc). Now we can get into all kinds of discussions about why men and women may make these decisions but what is important to understand is that the wage gap is less about discrimination and more about inequality.

So let me get this straight... I'm a better dad if i work part time then come home to play WoW with the kids? Sign me up!!

I'm a non custodial father working two jobs because my ex wife refuses to work, so yada yada..