nelson is a real farking scumbag.

Nelson and Lieberman and the rest need to grow the hell up. If we mandate insurance and don't include a public option, then ll we're doing is lining the pockets of the insurance companies.

/found out my insurance provider is a "non-profit" - could have fooled me

The only "option" here is whether we bend over and take it or let them ram Obamacare down our throats. Unless you can think of a third homoerotic metaphor that involves hot man-cock in one of our orifices.

The Fourth Karamazov: The only "option" here is whether we bend over and take it or let them ram Obamacare down our throats.

i dunno, how about an option that's, well, an option: medicare for all. member-funded, deficit-neutral public insurance. if you like your private plan, fine, keep it. if not, pay into the public plan and be covered. it would lift a HUGE burden off american business and jumpstart the economy.

FlashHarry: The Fourth Karamazov: The only "option" here is whether we bend over and take it or let them ram Obamacare down our throats.

i dunno, how about an option that's, well, an option: medicare for all. member-funded, deficit-neutral public insurance. if you like your private plan, fine, keep it. if not, pay into the public plan and be covered. it would lift a HUGE burden off american business and jumpstart the economy.

The first intelligent thing I've read on fark this morning!

FlashHarry: The Fourth Karamazov: The only "option" here is whether we bend over and take it or let them ram Obamacare down our throats.

i dunno, how about an option that's, well, an option: medicare for all. member-funded, deficit-neutral public insurance. if you like your private plan, fine, keep it. if not, pay into the public plan and be covered. it would lift a HUGE burden off american business and jumpstart the economy.

I really don't understand all the love for Medicare or Medicaid. When my parents passed last year we, obviously, had to go through all of their financial stuff. We were stunned by the thousands they paid for Medicare supplemental insurance to pay for all the stuff that Medicare didn't. The other problem is common to both Medicare and Medicaid. They don't reimburse providers anywhere near the cost of providing services. It is somewhere around 60%. That additional 40% is passed on to everyone else.

Any Blue Dog that votes against it will have two choices:
1. Pull an Arlen Specter and switch parties
OR
2. Print their résumés

lajimi: Any Blue Dog that votes against it will have two choices:
1. Pull an Arlen Specter and switch parties
OR
2. Print their résumés

So much this.

*Lieberman's already farked no matter what he does.
*Nelson's a Democrat in Nebraska. Nuff said.
*Lincoln's in a fight for her seat and a no vote will mean zero party support.
*Reid's political life depends on this bill staggering to Obama's desk. If it fails, Schumer or Durbin will take over in 2011.

The rest are pretty much going to have to reform the filibuster rules if they want to get much of anything else done.

So it's a coherent superposition of being alive and dead. For the love of god no one measure it because it will most likely become entangled with something.

/probably safe since no one reads those bills anyway

1 of 2 things will happen.

It will get sent to Obama

It will be defeated and Obama will press for them to start writing a new one which will still contain some government run insurance.

I think a lot of the higher ups believe that will be the only way true reform will happen.

Tunk87: I really don't understand all the love for Medicare or Medicaid. When my parents passed last year we, obviously, had to go through all of their financial stuff. We were stunned by the thousands they paid for Medicare supplemental insurance to pay for all the stuff that Medicare didn't. The other problem is common to both Medicare and Medicaid. They don't reimburse providers anywhere near the cost of providing services. It is somewhere around 60%. That additional 40% is passed on to everyone else.

Got a citation for this claim? I've seen it tossed around often enough, but never seen where a doctor or hospital sells a medicare patient at below cost. Below what another plan may pay or what the hospital might want to charge, sure. But below the actual COST of the hospital/doctor/whatever providing it, such that their business would make more money with 99 customers than they would with 99 + 1 medicare person? No.

Nelson also told me he wants stronger language prohibiting federal funds for abortion.

How about "No FARKING federal funds for abortion".

SINGLE PAYER NOW

/a guy can still dream, I guess.

The Fourth Karamazov: The only "option" here is whether we bend over and take it or let them ram Obamacare down our throats. Unless you can think of a third homoerotic metaphor that involves hot man-cock in one of our orifices.

Get down on all fours and take it both ways?

YES. YOU GO TO HELL, SOCIALISM! YOU GO TO HELL AND YOU DIE!

Gosling: If it fails, Schumer or Durbin will take over in 2011.

Schumer said Dems to pass it w/ or w/o Republicans (new window)

FlashHarry: i dunno, how about an option that's, well, an option: medicare for all. member-funded, deficit-neutral public insurance. if you like your private plan, fine, keep it. if not, pay into the public plan and be covered. it would lift a HUGE burden off american business and jumpstart the economy.

Careful, you've posted something rational.

People don't react kindly to rational thought round these here parts.

We need to have a public option. Everyone needs to take everyone else. It's not best for us, but what is best for the world. Every single part of the world has universal healthcare and we don't. That needs to change. It's like the world wanting Obama while we fight over Pancakes.

Those insurance companies sure do have a lot of money to throw around, huh?

lajimi: Any Blue Dog that votes against it will have two choices:
1. Pull an Arlen Specter and switch parties
OR
2. Print their résumés

Ding,Ding,Ding We have a winner

I am hearing about this health care stuff in the news. I care more about beer and pussy. Would one of you Fark dorks explain Public Option to me.

UNC_Samurai: Nelson and Lieberman and the rest need to grow the hell up. If we mandate insurance and don't include a public option, then ll we're doing is lining the pockets of the insurance companies.

/found out my insurance provider is a "non-profit" - could have fooled me

I know there's that "it's no different from a tax!" rhetoric out there, but I don't buy it. If you are requiring me to pay, then I'll pay my government, if that is the choice of our representatives. Not a for-profit corporation. Not a not-quite-non-profit. The moment you have a no-way-to-opt out forced purchase of corporate products, you literally have corporatism. Even with car insurance, I have the choice to not drive a car.

I'll be dead honest here. If they pass a mandate without a public option, my ass is going to jail. I won't buy. I won't pay penalties. I'm just going to have to face the consequences for asserting my freedom.

That this is even a possibility has me more than a little distraught.

The Fourth Karamazov: The only "option" here is whether we bend over and take it or let them ram Obamacare down our throats.

FlashHarry:i dunno, how about an option that's, well, an option: medicare for all. member-funded, deficit-neutral public insurance. if you like your private plan, fine, keep it. if not, pay into the public plan and be covered. it would lift a HUGE burden off american business and jumpstart the economy.

Well, there's still a possible scam.
You enroll in a ridiculously cheap private plan. Then, you get sick or injured seriously. You realize the coverage is shiat and the copay so high that you cancel it and switch to teh government plan. They fix you all up, foot the huge bill for a trivial premium, then you go back to the discount private plan.

Maybe they should start small, like legislation of the things that aren't working well in the current system. Keep it simple. They don't need to swing for the fences quite yet, then the pill will be easier to swallow later.

They should use one of those Death Panels and end the life-support for it.

"There will never be a really free and enlightened State until the State comes to recognize the individual as a higher and independent power, from which all its own power and authority are derived, and treats him accordingly."

"If you see a man approaching you with the obvious intent of doing you good, you should run for your life."

"Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it."

"I did not pay a tax to, or recognize the authority of, the State which buys and sells men, women, and children, like cattle, at the door of its senate-house. I had gone down to the woods for other purposes. But, wherever a man goes, men will pursue and paw him with their dirty institutions, and, if they can, constrain him to belong to their desperate odd-fellow society. It is true, I might have resisted forcibly with more or less effect, might have run "amok" against society; but I preferred that society should run "amok" against me, it being the desperate party."

If they pass this, they can levy those fines against me. I'm not paying for their insurance.

If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law.

GoSurfing: If they pass this, they can levy those fines against me. I'm not paying for their insurance.
Public Option. Seems like you could still have Private insurance.

/Justa guess.

One of two things is going to happen...

1. The public option will fail, and the price of healthcare will continue to go up.
2. The public option will pass, and the price of healthcare will continue to go up.

Get back to us when "healthcare reform" involves more than just shuffling around who pays while ignoring every tier in the massive health care industry except for the politically unpopular insurance companies.

KajakPro: GoSurfing: If they pass this, they can levy those fines against me. I'm not paying for their insurance.
Public Option. Seems like you could still have Private insurance.

/Justa guess.

You'll never change someone's mind when they've already copied and pasted so much.

positronica: One of two things is going to happen...

1. The public option will fail, and the price of healthcare will continue to go up.
2. The public option will pass, and the price of healthcare will continue to go up.

Get back to us when "healthcare reform" involves more than just shuffling around who pays while ignoring every tier in the massive health care industry except for the politically unpopular insurance companies.

Yea, but I still see option 2 as the more likely one to involve further reform in the future.

It would probably still be alive today if we had universal health care.

positronica: Get back to us when "healthcare reform" involves more than just shuffling around who pays while ignoring every tier in the massive health care industry except for the politically unpopular insurance companies.

If you do away with unpaid medical bills you'll take care of the major factor in increasing costs.

GoSurfing: I'm not paying for their insurance.

and I wouldn't pay for your fire department

so another politician is using the bill to attention whore... this is not news

KajakPro: GoSurfing: If they pass this, they can levy those fines against me. I'm not paying for their insurance.
Public Option. Seems like you could still have Private insurance.

/Justa guess.

Or we could just keep it the way it is. There is no rush to solve the Social Security crisis. There is no rush to solve immigration. This is all bullshiat. Yet, there people with such enlightened opinions such as: "FlashHarry: nelson is a real farking scumbag.

People like that need to be spoonfed by the government, they want to be told when and where they can shiat, they want to be told what to do.

Hay guys guess what? I'm an Amuuurkan living in a foreign country and there's a mandatory national health insurance here... but also private insurance that's thriving! OMFG!

Single payer

That's where everyone with a job pays for everyone without a job or legal citizenship right?

That's a single payer? Sounds like a worker's paying for lazy ass people.

Sadly those who are employed, able, capable and willing are now out numbered by the lazy.

Eventually you run out of people to help freeloaders.

vaconex: That's where everyone with a job pays for everyone without a job or legal citizenship right?

That's a single payer? Sounds like a worker's paying for lazy ass people.

Sadly those who are employed, able, capable and willing are now out numbered by the lazy.

Eventually you run out of people to help freeloaders.

You show an amazing lack of faith in the American work ethic.

positronica: One of two things is going to happen...

1. The public option will fail, and the price of healthcare will continue to go up.
2. The public option will pass, and the price of healthcare will continue to go up.

Get back to us when "healthcare reform" involves more than just shuffling around who pays while ignoring every tier in the massive health care industry except for the politically unpopular insurance companies.

Big farking deal.

The price of gasoline is going to continue to go up. The price of groceries are going to continue to go up. Ever heard of inflation? Do you suggest the government take over the oil companies/grocery stores to solve this?

WhyteRaven74: and I wouldn't pay for your fire department

Bad analogy. The fire department provides a worthy service that I'll gladly pay my taxes towards. Not all taxes are bad. We need to maintain the roads and infrastructure. That makes sense. Having the government run EVERY farking aspect of your life doesn't. Our healthcare system works. That's what most of you want to deny. You can get medical care in this country. Furthermore, why would you allow the corrupt politicians run MORE of your life? Have you seen the waste of a typical government agency? You people biatch and moan about the ineptness of those say at the TSA yet you think this same government is going to run healthcare better than on a for-profit basis.

GoSurfing: Or we could just keep it the way it is.

so that people continue to go bankrupt due to being sick? So that people go without medical care?

vaconex: That's where everyone with a job pays for everyone without a job or legal citizenship right?

Uh no.

Eventually you run out of people to help freeloaders.

yes because no one who has a job is ever denied health insurance.

FlashHarry: nelson is a real farking scumbag.

This ... anti-abortion? Is it still 1879 or what?

/He needs to switch to the knuckle-dragging party ASAP ....

fuzzycuffs: Hay guys guess what? I'm an Amuuurkan living in a foreign country and there's a mandatory national health insurance here... but also private insurance that's thriving! OMFG!

Hey! You got reality in my wharrgarbl!

GoSurfing: why would you allow the corrupt politicians run MORE of your life?

how does making sure everyone has health insurance translate into government running health care?

Our healthcare system works.

so why are so many mentally ill people suffering owing to a lack of care?

UNC_Samurai: Nelson and Lieberman and the rest need to grow the hell up. If we mandate insurance and don't include a public option, then ll we're doing is lining the pockets of the insurance companies.

/found out my insurance provider is a "non-profit" - could have fooled me

you don't bite the hand that feeds you.

GoSurfing: Bad analogy. The fire department provides a worthy service that I'll gladly pay my taxes towards. Not all taxes are bad. We need to maintain the roads and infrastructure. That makes sense. Having the government run EVERY farking aspect of your life doesn't. Our healthcare system works. That's what most of you want to deny. You can get medical care in this country. Furthermore, why would you allow the corrupt politicians run MORE of your life? Have you seen the waste of a typical government agency? You people biatch and moan about the ineptness of those say at the TSA yet you think this same government is going to run healthcare better than on a for-profit basis.

8/10

So what keeps this from being like car insurance? It's illegal to be without it but good luck getting it or paying for it if you're high risk.

FlashHarry: The Fourth Karamazov: The only "option" here is whether we bend over and take it or let them ram Obamacare down our throats.

i dunno, how about an option that's, well, an option: medicare for all. member-funded, deficit-neutral public insurance. if you like your private plan, fine, keep it. if not, pay into the public plan and be covered. it would lift a HUGE burden off American business and jumpstart the economy.

A few years back A southern U.S. state lost a bid for a KIA factory even while offering huge subsidies and tax breaks. The winner of the bid was a city in Canada that offered no subsidies. The rational was, that over time the burdens of the healthcare industry here would negatively offset any initial benefits.


I don't want to see people in the greatest country in the world die because big pharma might miss their payout and quarterly expectations. But I think we should be at the point where "real conservatives" should be able to recognize "competitive disadvantage". Or is it all teh ebil libruls, you betcha?

/This is a disaster
//Something has to be done

vaconex: Single payer

That's where everyone with a job pays for everyone without a job or legal citizenship right?

That's a single payer? Sounds like a worker's paying for lazy ass people.

Sadly those who are employed, able, capable and willing are now out numbered by the lazy.

Eventually you run out of people to help freeloaders.

Indeed. It is impossible to make it the law that non citizens shall not receive the benefits of citizens.

Also: This does not occur under the current system with ER situations.

Also: Poor sick people do not hurt you financially.

Also: Poor sick people without health coverage provide no health risk to people with coverage.

Also: Epidemics and pandemics do not exist. And even if they did, the risk mitigated by providing health care to poor people (in the form of early warning and containment) is not worth the cost of that coverage.

Also: Public health is a zero sum game.

GoSurfing: KajakPro: GoSurfing: If they pass this, they can levy those fines against me. I'm not paying for their insurance.
Public Option. Seems like you could still have Private insurance.

/Justa guess.

Or we could just keep it the way it is. There is no rush to solve the Social Security crisis. There is no rush to solve immigration. This is all bullshiat. Yet, there people with such enlightened opinions such as: "FlashHarry: nelson is a real farking scumbag.

People like that need to be spoonfed by the government, they want to be told when and where they can shiat, they want to be told what to do.

Health care reform is hardly something that first popped up a few months ago you know.

If you want to argue in favor of the status quo, make an argument for why it is good or better than a proposed change. I don't know what rush you are talking about, and I don't know wtf social security (Which I agree, is hardly in a crisis state) has to do with our health care in the US. But lets say you are correct, and this coming reform will be a net negative and thus doing nothing would be preferable. So lets do nothing now, but when should things be changed in the future? I hope you aren't arguing that nothing should ever be changed until we are actually in a position that we DO have to rush.

Immigration is a problem that needs to be handled on the hiring end most of all, and the borders second, and trying to address it in a health care reform bill is just stupid. The only reason immigrants are mentioned at all is because when you are the party of no and you want to screw your opponents over more than anything, it makes good sense to force them to choose between accepting the pissing off the anti-immigrant crowd with allegations of free health care for mexicans, or you make the bill more of a mess by having it address immigration and jam checkpoints into a health care system that really doesn't need more paperwork. Its a shameful political ploy.

WhyteRaven74: so why are so many mentally ill people suffering owing to a lack of care?

Maybe because there is no cure for mental illness?

You bleeding hearts are all the same. More. More. More. Nothing is enough. We could allow for healthcare reform, then you will farking harp on something else.

Reality check: there will ALWAYS be poor, there will always be those without medical care. Some people don't even want your help. Ever think of that?