Oh please please please please please...

Interest in coaching the Browns should be a red flag that you're not qualified to coach in the NFL.

I will admit Holmgren is a specialist when it comes to calling a run play on 3 and 8.


/Hated him when he was the Seahawks

Fat guys are hilarious.

Really it can't get any worse... I'd say starting over with someone new would be counterproductive but... well hell I don't know what to think.

Watched my daughter's rec soccer team get destroyed by a travel team made of girls on average 2 years older last night. Her best friends father was sitting next to me... I was wearing my Browns cap, he had on his Michigan cap... we're gluttons for punishment up here.

/ya, I know, cool story bro.

Couldn't happen to a better coach. I think I speak for Jets fans everywhere when I say stay the hell away from the Northeast. Unless its to run the Pats.

Wait until he sees the last play in today's Browns-Lions game. He may reconsider.

The next coach of the Browns should be Charlie Weis. He can go there and work with Brady Quinn and bring both of them back to prominence. Also, Lerner would have the New England coordinator trifecta with Crennel, Mangini, and Weis.

Win-win for everyone involved.

After losing to the Lions today, it won't be long.

I would just like to say, I'm surprised "Eric Mangina" hasn't become his new nickname.

Oh wait...

Eric Mangina

I kept hoping that somebody, after the Lions scored the winning points, would dump the Gatorade bucket on Mangina. Maybe later, during an interview, they could do the pie in the face thing to Quinn.

coolio mack: The next coach of the Browns should be Charlie Weis. He can go there and work with Brady Quinn and bring both of them back to prominence. Also, Lerner would have the New England coordinator trifecta with Crennel, Mangini, and Weis.

Let's see... they over-estimated what Crennel & Mangini could do for the Browns, but Weis is going to do better because the Pats' former genius offensive coordinator is doing amazing stuff for Notre Dame?

I don't think Quinn is that bad, but he looked good today against Detroit.

/Why does it have to be Green Bay on Thanksgiving? Why can't we watch the Kittens lose to some non-conference team? At least it isn't the Stillers or some other team I want to watch less than the Meat Packers...

Not that it changes a whole lot, but that PI call against the Browns on the last play of the game was one of the worst calls of the season.

Calvin Johnson had absolutely no chance to catch that ball. You can't make that call. The Browns were screwed.

In watching the game, every shot of Mangini reminded me of this.

legion_of_doo: coolio mack: The next coach of the Browns should be Charlie Weis. He can go there and work with Brady Quinn and bring both of them back to prominence. Also, Lerner would have the New England coordinator trifecta with Crennel, Mangini, and Weis.

Let's see... they over-estimated what Crennel & Mangini could do for the Browns, but Weis is going to do better because the Pats' former genius offensive coordinator is doing amazing stuff for Notre Dame?

I don't think Quinn is that bad, but he looked good today against Detroit.

/Why does it have to be Green Bay on Thanksgiving? Why can't we watch the Kittens lose to some non-conference team? At least it isn't the Stillers or some other team I want to watch less than the Meat Packers...

I was joking. You really think any sane person would think Weis should get a head NFL job after the debacle with ND?

In all seriousness though, I wouldn't give up on Quinn yet. The guy has had less than a half season worth of starts. Like I always say, in todays NFL, Troy Aikman wouldn't make it because everyone would be so quick to bench him after his first rough season. QB's should get 30 games starting before we can label them a bust or not.

Why Would I Read the Article: Not that it changes a whole lot, but that PI call against the Browns on the last play of the game was one of the worst calls of the season.

Calvin Johnson had absolutely no chance to catch that ball. You can't make that call. The Browns were screwed.

The interference wasn't for Calvin Johnson. It was for Bryant Johnson getting pushed back out of the end zone before the ball got there. It was a good call. Watch it again.

/Not a Lions fan
//Thankfully

can anyone explain to me how the browns ended up with 1st and 8 after getting a block in the back call on a 12 yard gain?

Surprised he isn't talked about more. He certainly has the best resume out of all the jobless coaches right now.
(keep him out of the afc east please)

TommyBahama: can anyone explain to me how the browns ended up with 1st and 8 after getting a block in the back call on a 12 yard gain?

Explain how Detroit got an injury timeout after the "last" play when they didnt have any more timeouts...

Not that it matters EXCEPT - in 5 months when the Browns are drafting one (maybe 2) spot higher than the Lions because of that interference call.

If the football gods have any sense of irony the Lions will trade up either with the Browns or to get in front of the Browns to "pick they guy they really want".

TommyBahama: can anyone explain to me how the browns ended up with 1st and 8 after getting a block in the back call on a 12 yard gain?

'Tis one of the odd rules in the NFL where the penalty yards and net yards gained are both applied. The play gained 12 yards, but it was a 10 yard penalty. Replay the down but you end up with +2 difference.

Fizpez:

Explain how Detroit got an injury timeout after the "last" play when they didnt have any more timeouts...

Because it's a rule.

A team cannot buy an excess time out for a penalty. However, a fourth time out is allowed without penalty for an injured player, who must be removed immediately. A fifth time out or more is allowed for an injury and a five-yard penalty is assessed if the clock was running. Additionally, if the clock was running and the score is tied or the team in possession is losing, the ball cannot be put in play for at least 10 seconds on the fourth or more time out. The half or game can end while those 10 seconds are run off on the clock. Link (new window)

The real problem was Mangini calling an additional timeout after the injury TO was awarded. This allowed Stafford to come back on the field.

coolio mack: ...Like I always say, in todays NFL, Troy Aikman wouldn't make it because everyone would be so quick to bench him after his first rough season. QB's should get 30 games starting before we can label them a bust or not.

I always wondered what Jimmy Johnson's fark handle was.

Mike_LowELL: Interest in coaching the Browns should be a red flag that you're not qualified to coach in the NFL.

Doesn't say anything about "coaching" for the Browns. Just working for them. Could be a GM spot, "consultant" who knows.

sn0wblind: Surprised he isn't talked about more. He certainly has the best resume out of all the jobless coaches right now.
(keep him out of the afc east please)

I think Dungy, Cowher, and Shanahan might want a word with you.

Holmgren's first order of business is taking the Browns to the Super Bowl. He then will start to coach his team for the upcoming season.

legion_of_doo: I don't think Quinn is that bad, but he looked good today against Detroit.

This thing could put up a 120 passer rating against the Lions secondary:

MarkKetch: Fizpez:

Explain how Detroit got an injury timeout after the "last" play when they didnt have any more timeouts...

Because it's a rule.

A team cannot buy an excess time out for a penalty. However, a fourth time out is allowed without penalty for an injured player, who must be removed immediately. A fifth time out or more is allowed for an injury and a five-yard penalty is assessed if the clock was running. Additionally, if the clock was running and the score is tied or the team in possession is losing, the ball cannot be put in play for at least 10 seconds on the fourth or more time out. The half or game can end while those 10 seconds are run off on the clock. Link (new window)

The real problem was Mangini calling an additional timeout after the injury TO was awarded. This allowed Stafford to come back on the field.

Plus, if the defense commits a penalty as times runs out, isn't it required that there be one last untimed play? Seems like there would have been one last play either way. At least that's my understanding from watching the highlights. Didn't see the game. But if the rationale here is that Culpepper had a lesser chance of success than Stafford then your really grasping at straws.

BlaineIsAPain: Plus, if the defense commits a penalty as times runs out, isn't it required that there be one last untimed play? Seems like there would have been one last play either way. At least that's my understanding from watching the highlights. Didn't see the game. But if the rationale here is that Culpepper had a lesser chance of success than Stafford then your really grasping at straws.

The last play was required, but without the timeout by Mangini Stafford would have had to sit the play out.

And while I agree that at the 1 it's kind of a wash between Stafford and Culpepper, the Lions just invested the #1 pick and a ton of money in Stafford. He's their future. Might as well see what he can do in a big spot. And while his year has been very up-and-down, he's been pretty good for a rookie QB on a bad team. I think he has a solid - if not spectacular - future ahead of him.

TheMephis: Doesn't say anything about "coaching" for the Browns. Just working for them. Could be a GM spot, "consultant" who knows.

At this rate, probably quarterback.

Mike_LowELL: TheMephis: Doesn't say anything about "coaching" for the Browns. Just working for them. Could be a GM spot, "consultant" who knows.

At this rate, probably quarterback.

He'll likely get a similar position that Parcells got in Miami. Mangini and Quinn will probably both get another season next year.

punchaprep: I will admit Holmgren is a specialist when it comes to calling a run play on 3 and 8.


/Hated him when he was the Seahawks

How can you hate a guy that got a feeble franchise to the Superbowl. I hated 3rd and long draw plays too, but come on.

Surely there are better situations than Cleveland for Holmgren... ANYTHING else.

Speaking as a lifelong Seahawks fan, I give Holmgren credit for his coaching. The guy made the team into an annual playoff participant and actually took 'em to the Super Bowl. Trust me when I say that if someone had told us in 1992 (that was the 2-14 campaign) that the 'Hawks would EVER go to a Super Bowl you would have been laughed out of the room.

That said, Holmgren as GM had a mixed record. He was great in the first round (Walter Jones, Shawn Alexander, Steve Hutchinson) but HORRID in the late rounds. The Seahawks became a true contender when Tim Ruskell took over as GM.

At any rate... Don't do it, Mike! Hold out for the 49ers!

coolio mack: I don't think Quinn is that bad, but he looked good today against Detroit.

Call me when he does it against a NFL team.

MarkKetch: TommyBahama: can anyone explain to me how the browns ended up with 1st and 8 after getting a block in the back call on a 12 yard gain?

'Tis one of the odd rules in the NFL where the penalty yards and net yards gained are both applied. The play gained 12 yards, but it was a 10 yard penalty. Replay the down but you end up with +2 difference.

It's 10 yards from the spot, the resulting run doesn't matter (so long as the run goes beyond the spot). I didn't see the game, so I don't know if block in the back is the correct penalty in this situation.

For example, if a RB scores a TD from 35 yards out, and the block in the back happened at the line of scrimmage, you don't take the net (ie. repeat the down at the 10 yard line). If accepted (obviously), it's 1st and 20 from the 45.

The NFL and NCAA rules are identical, and here is a link to a similar question (^)

man I think holgren should become the seahawks GM, tim ruskell obviously isnt capable of building an f-ing O line that doesnt sack itself

Fizpez: Explain how Detroit got an injury timeout after the "last" play when they didnt have any more timeouts...

Because you can't realistically say "ok, no one's allowed to get injured after you run out of timeouts", dummy.

FreakinB: And while I agree that at the 1 it's kind of a wash between Stafford and Culpepper, the Lions just invested the #1 pick and a ton of money in Stafford. He's their future. Might as well see what he can do in a big spot. And while his year has been very up-and-down, he's been pretty good for a rookie QB on a bad team. I think he has a solid - if not spectacular - future ahead of him.

My buddy that I watch football with has the Dish network NFL package and we couldn't believe we were actually watching more than 30 seconds of a Browns v. Lions game. Stafford was incredible, he surely scored major points with his teammates by getting absolutely leveled --my friend said "Broken collarbone" when we saw the first replay-- and then coming back to calmly throw the winning TD pass.

Now that Matt Millen is gone, maybe the Lions can rebuild around Stafford. It's certainly not unheard of in the current NFL to go from the basement to the penthouse in a few seasons of good draft picks and shrewd pick-ups of role players (see: the Colts going 3-13 in 1998 and 13-3 in 1999, not that Stafford has anywhere near Peyton Manning's talent). Detroit has enough problems, a decent NFL team that they can really root for would be cool.

/Colts fan
//All conference rivals can DIAF, otherwise, whatevs

Henry Holland: FreakinB: And while I agree that at the 1 it's kind of a wash between Stafford and Culpepper, the Lions just invested the #1 pick and a ton of money in Stafford. He's their future. Might as well see what he can do in a big spot. And while his year has been very up-and-down, he's been pretty good for a rookie QB on a bad team. I think he has a solid - if not spectacular - future ahead of him.

My buddy that I watch football with has the Dish network NFL package and we couldn't believe we were actually watching more than 30 seconds of a Browns v. Lions game. Stafford was incredible, he surely scored major points with his teammates by getting absolutely leveled --my friend said "Broken collarbone" when we saw the first replay-- and then coming back to calmly throw the winning TD pass.

Now that Matt Millen is gone, maybe the Lions can rebuild around Stafford. It's certainly not unheard of in the current NFL to go from the basement to the penthouse in a few seasons of good draft picks and shrewd pick-ups of role players (see: the Colts going 3-13 in 1998 and 13-3 in 1999, not that Stafford has anywhere near Peyton Manning's talent). Detroit has enough problems, a decent NFL team that they can really root for would be cool.

/Colts fan
//All conference rivals can DIAF, otherwise, whatevs

Except the Lions losing is institutionalized. It wasn't solely Millen's fault, nor was it the various coaches he hired. It was a top down failure. If the owner, Ford, would have blew up the organization and fielded suggestions from the NFL for positions MAYBE I'd be hopeful, but he just promoted a few people from the organization and was done. Ford is hoping he has Sanders' magic in Stafford (like Harrington) so he can ride another person 5-8 years.

/i won't watch another lions fooseball game until Ford is dead
//... and then 4-5 years of successes

tribute: Henry Holland: FreakinB: And while I agree that at the 1 it's kind of a wash between Stafford and Culpepper, the Lions just invested the #1 pick and a ton of money in Stafford. He's their future. Might as well see what he can do in a big spot. And while his year has been very up-and-down, he's been pretty good for a rookie QB on a bad team. I think he has a solid - if not spectacular - future ahead of him.

My buddy that I watch football with has the Dish network NFL package and we couldn't believe we were actually watching more than 30 seconds of a Browns v. Lions game. Stafford was incredible, he surely scored major points with his teammates by getting absolutely leveled --my friend said "Broken collarbone" when we saw the first replay-- and then coming back to calmly throw the winning TD pass.

Now that Matt Millen is gone, maybe the Lions can rebuild around Stafford. It's certainly not unheard of in the current NFL to go from the basement to the penthouse in a few seasons of good draft picks and shrewd pick-ups of role players (see: the Colts going 3-13 in 1998 and 13-3 in 1999, not that Stafford has anywhere near Peyton Manning's talent). Detroit has enough problems, a decent NFL team that they can really root for would be cool.

/Colts fan
//All conference rivals can DIAF, otherwise, whatevs

Except the Lions losing is institutionalized. It wasn't solely Millen's fault, nor was it the various coaches he hired. It was a top down failure. If the owner, Ford, would have blew up the organization and fielded suggestions from the NFL for positions MAYBE I'd be hopeful, but he just promoted a few people from the organization and was done. Ford is hoping he has Sanders' magic in Stafford (like Harrington) so he can ride another person 5-8 years.

/i won't watch another lions fooseball game until Ford is dead
//... and then 4-5 years of successes

Didn't the Lions win 10 games the year before Millen?

InferiousX: tribute: Henry Holland: FreakinB: And while I agree that at the 1 it's kind of a wash between Stafford and Culpepper, the Lions just invested the #1 pick and a ton of money in Stafford. He's their future. Might as well see what he can do in a big spot. And while his year has been very up-and-down, he's been pretty good for a rookie QB on a bad team. I think he has a solid - if not spectacular - future ahead of him.

My buddy that I watch football with has the Dish network NFL package and we couldn't believe we were actually watching more than 30 seconds of a Browns v. Lions game. Stafford was incredible, he surely scored major points with his teammates by getting absolutely leveled --my friend said "Broken collarbone" when we saw the first replay-- and then coming back to calmly throw the winning TD pass.

Now that Matt Millen is gone, maybe the Lions can rebuild around Stafford. It's certainly not unheard of in the current NFL to go from the basement to the penthouse in a few seasons of good draft picks and shrewd pick-ups of role players (see: the Colts going 3-13 in 1998 and 13-3 in 1999, not that Stafford has anywhere near Peyton Manning's talent). Detroit has enough problems, a decent NFL team that they can really root for would be cool.

/Colts fan
//All conference rivals can DIAF, otherwise, whatevs

Except the Lions losing is institutionalized. It wasn't solely Millen's fault, nor was it the various coaches he hired. It was a top down failure. If the owner, Ford, would have blew up the organization and fielded suggestions from the NFL for positions MAYBE I'd be hopeful, but he just promoted a few people from the organization and was done. Ford is hoping he has Sanders' magic in Stafford (like Harrington) so he can ride another person 5-8 years.

/i won't watch another lions fooseball game until Ford is dead
//... and then 4-5 years of successes

Didn't the Lions win 10 games the year before Millen?

9-7 under Ross and Moeller. 1998 when Sanders retired. They've had one post season win, 1991, since 1957 when they last won the NFL's championship (pre-superbowl). Ford. Millen. Whoever. Institutionalized losers.

Blow the team up, start from scratch. If it doesn't work in five years. Blow the team up, repeat.

the bomb dot com:

It's 10 yards from the spot, the resulting run doesn't matter (so long as the run goes beyond the spot). I didn't see the game, so I don't know if block in the back is the correct penalty in this situation.

For example, if a RB scores a TD from 35 yards out, and the block in the back happened at the line of scrimmage, you don't take the net (ie. repeat the down at the 10 yard line). If accepted (obviously), it's 1st and 20 from the 45.

The NFL and NCAA rules are identical, and here is a link to a similar question (^)

Um, not from my understanding as I've seen it called this way plenty of times where the result of the penalty led to a first and shorter-than-ten.

The Brown's problems are much deeper than a single position and / or coach. Whoever said that Lerner needs to sell the team to someone who cares is spot-on; as long as Browns fans keep packing the stadium then Learner is earning money, and that's all he cares about. And Browns fans will continue to pack the stadium even of the team sucks.

The Browns played their best game of the season yesterday ... and they couldn't beat *Detroit*.

the_vegetarian_cannibal: Oh wait...

They're worse thank detroit. I don't know how that's even possible...

Cleveland leads the nation in drifters.

Kell Hound
Surely there are better situations than Cleveland for Holmgren... ANYTHING else.

you know... not all people in the world think like you do. Sometimes, the reason to do something is not because its easy, but because its hard. And the payoff of winning a championship for Cleveland would be greater than any other acievement in the history of sports.

I hear the Packers will be looking for a new coach. He shouldn't have any trouble finding the place.