Because Jesus loves them, and it would be impolite to not reciprocate?

It's still not right (being that the schools get public money), but I don't have so much of a problem with it in schools where the students are adults.

It's people who think we should have Bible study in public elementary schools that piss me off most.

I have more of a problem with the rape and the cheating than the indoctrination.

Thats like #258 on the things that might be wrong with college football subby. Get in line.

Because Islam is out of vogue at the moment

Dr. Nick Riviera: I have more of a problem with the rape and the cheating than the indoctrination.

Lucky for you, they all ho hand in hand.

I have a bigger problem with schools handing out athletic scholarships.

A better question is why academic institutions use public funding to "educate" meatheads rather than focus on academics.

We had to do Lord's Prayer in pregame when I was in (a public) High School, so I'm really getting a kick out of these replies...

because they won't score a touchdown without Jesus wanting it
Jesus can't play rugby

I am about as atheist as they come, but if you find yourself in the position the article writer states, just don't say the damn prayer. Is it that hard? Happens to me every once in a while in life (weddings, family dinners, etc.), I just don't pray and sit there quietly. No need to be a dick.

eddyatwork: I have a bigger problem with schools handing out athletic scholarships.

Probably becuase you don't understand how college sports works and how much money they rake in for the universities.

What if the coach were a Muslim and Islam was being ingrained?

The team would lose when the players had to bow to Mecca during a crucial play. It's a self-correcting situation.

williamzabka: I am about as atheist as they come, but if you find yourself in the position the article writer states, just don't say the damn prayer. Is it that hard? Happens to me every once in a while in life (weddings, family dinners, etc.), I just don't pray and sit there quietly. No need to be a dick.

It appears to be a little more than just a quick prayer before games.

I'm with the author when she says that she doesn't get why God gets credit when they win, but none of the blame when they lose. I guess the other team just prayed harder, eh?

Di Atribe: williamzabka: I am about as atheist as they come, but if you find yourself in the position the article writer states, just don't say the damn prayer. Is it that hard? Happens to me every once in a while in life (weddings, family dinners, etc.), I just don't pray and sit there quietly. No need to be a dick.

It appears to be a little more than just a quick prayer before games.

I'm with the author when she says that she doesn't get why God gets credit when they win, but none of the blame when they lose. I guess the other team just prayed harder, eh?

From how people explain it, the players are not praying to "win", they are praying to and thanking God for the ability to go compete, and play to the best of their abilities, which is hopefully good enough to win.

Although it does come across too often in how some express that as they are praying to make sure God puts more of his cash on their side of the board.

dletter: From how people explain it, the players are not praying to "win", they are praying to and thanking God for the ability to go compete, and play to the best of their abilities, which is hopefully good enough to win.

True. It's usually "Thank you for the ability to play and help us have a safe game." So why do players point at the sky and thank Jesus when they make a big play?

And also, TFA refers to coaches taking their players to church, seemingly mandatory.

Di Atribe: dletter: From how people explain it, the players are not praying to "win", they are praying to and thanking God for the ability to go compete, and play to the best of their abilities, which is hopefully good enough to win.

True. It's usually "Thank you for the ability to play and help us have a safe game." So why do players point at the sky and thank Jesus when they make a big play?

And also, TFA refers to coaches taking their players to church, seemingly mandatory.

Those players are what we like to call assholes.

Di Atribe: I'm with the author when she says that she doesn't get why God gets credit when they win, but none of the blame when they lose. I guess the other team just prayed harder, eh?

Extremely this. The other side is when they do win and get all "We prayed and God was listening!!" about the win to the TV cameras while still within earshot of the other team... though at least this is just a football game. People doing that at tragedies are more rude.

Of course, there's always the secular "wow! I'm so lucky to be one of 4 survivors on the plane!" people. Well, yeah, luck in the midst of given bad luck I suppose, but I was even LUCKIER to not be on the damn plane at all!

As for TFA, yeah, you can just kinda ignore a prayer and be quiet but if they're forcing kids to go to CHURCH, I can see why they'd be pissed about it. I mean, it's not football, let me sleep late on my day off already.

Because Christianity is the one true path to enlightenment and being a good person towards your fellow man, both in this life and the one in heaven beyond?

FTFA:

All this is patently illegal, of course. These are state schools funded with taxpayer dollars and the students who attend are constitutionally guaranteed not to have their coaches lead them in prayer or harangue them with good news testimonials.

Where is this in the constitution?

This comment made me lulz:

Wow, an article by a nonbeliever. We really want to know more about you. Are you an agnostic or an atheist? What other things in our culture do you hate besides religion and football? Bet you're okay with gay marriage and abortions. Why don't you make it your life's work to free these poor athletes who so obviously hate their coaches and their religious indoctrination? This nation was founded on Christian principles. What harm can come to these students from being exposed to Christian ideas? Maybe you should see if the ACLU needs any help because you are a very poor journalist.

THE ACLU! The right wing's most hated foe!

Btw Matt 6:13 is

"And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, for ever Amen"

Seems at little bit too "Tebow Christ Jr.-esq" for me.

Either way, they probably are more religious in general because they are superstitious meatheads. Just a guess though.

Vinz_Clortho: FTFA:

All this is patently illegal, of course. These are state schools funded with taxpayer dollars and the students who attend are constitutionally guaranteed not to have their coaches lead them in prayer or harangue them with good news testimonials.

Where is this in the constitution?

First Amendment. Establishment Clause.

As soon as the colleges get rid of the indoctrination that goes on in their academic programs, the football team should ditch the pre-game prayers. Deal?

Winterstar: Vinz_Clortho: FTFA:

All this is patently illegal, of course. These are state schools funded with taxpayer dollars and the students who attend are constitutionally guaranteed not to have their coaches lead them in prayer or harangue them with good news testimonials.

Where is this in the constitution?

First Amendment. Establishment Clause.

You mean this:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

So...a coach saying a prayer or taking kids to church is equivilent to the government establishing a religion? No where does it say the kids were forced to do anything. If the coach or other students who pray are muzzled, wouldn't that be a violation of their constitutional rights?

Winterstar: Vinz_Clortho: FTFA:

All this is patently illegal, of course. These are state schools funded with taxpayer dollars and the students who attend are constitutionally guaranteed not to have their coaches lead them in prayer or harangue them with good news testimonials.

Where is this in the constitution?

First Amendment. Establishment Clause.

These kids are not forced to attend these schools. In fact they are recruited and visit the team activities before signing to attend there. Someone who has a problem with the practices is going to take a scholarship someplace else. The one example given in TFA has permission from the parents involved. The author is being a douche.

Vinz_Clortho: So...a coach saying a prayer or taking kids to church is equivilent to the government establishing a religion? No where does it say the kids were forced to do anything. If the coach or other students who pray are muzzled, wouldn't that be a violation of their constitutional rights?

Depends on whether the coach shows any bias towards players who do or do not pray with him, such as playing them more/less.

Vinz_Clortho: If the coach or other students who pray are muzzled, wouldn't that be a violation of their constitutional rights?

How do you think those kids who are either not religious or have other beliefs feel? Do you think they feel muzzled? Do you think they feel free to say, "Hey, I don't think I want to participate." How's that gonna go over?

Vinz_Clortho: FTFA:

All this is patently illegal, of course. These are state schools funded with taxpayer dollars and the students who attend are constitutionally guaranteed not to have their coaches lead them in prayer or harangue them with good news testimonials.

Where is this in the constitution?


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Most religions require you to not believe in opposing religions. Therefore making these students participate in prayer or church services that are of an explicitly Christian nature prohibits them from freely practicing a religion. So they do have a constitutional right to practice their own beliefs, whether atheism or Hinduism or Islam and by forcing them into Christian prayer the coach is infringing upon that. Imagine if there was a muslim college coach that insisted upon leading students in worship, or said "Allahu Akbar" after a win. Would you feel the same then, even if he had Christian students on the team?

FTA: Bowden told the Tallahassee Democrat in September that one of his most significant roles is "being a witness. I don't want any of my players to go away from here not knowing about it."

So you think a coach using his position directly to attempt to recruit players into church is reasonable?

Good thing Bowden is a farking dinosaur, even his wife calls him a chauvinist. I'm glad I didn't go to school somewhere that backwards.

Vinz_Clortho:
So...a coach saying a prayer or taking kids to church is equivilent to the government establishing a religion?

if his program accepts government funding, yes, yes it is.

drewkumo: Vinz_Clortho: FTFA:

All this is patently illegal, of course. These are state schools funded with taxpayer dollars and the students who attend are constitutionally guaranteed not to have their coaches lead them in prayer or harangue them with good news testimonials.

Where is this in the constitution?


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Most religions require you to not believe in opposing religions. Therefore making these students participate in prayer or church services that are of an explicitly Christian nature prohibits them from freely practicing a religion. So they do have a constitutional right to practice their own beliefs, whether atheism or Hinduism or Islam and by forcing them into Christian prayer the coach is infringing upon that. Imagine if there was a muslim college coach that insisted upon leading students in worship, or said "Allahu Akbar" after a win. Would you feel the same then, even if he had Christian students on the team?

No one is making anyone do anything. No where in this opinion does it say someone was forced to pray. Also, no where in the article does it say anyone complained.

I just don't think it's illegal to say a prayer before a football game.

Edipis: Vinz_Clortho:
So...a coach saying a prayer or taking kids to church is equivilent to the government establishing a religion?

if his program accepts government funding, yes, yes it is.

If no one if forced, how?

drewkumo: FTA: Bowden told the Tallahassee Democrat in September that one of his most significant roles is "being a witness. I don't want any of my players to go away from here not knowing about it."

So you think a coach using his position directly to attempt to recruit players into church is reasonable?

Good thing Bowden is a farking dinosaur, even his wife calls him a chauvinist. I'm glad I didn't go to school somewhere that backwards.

Also from the article: He says there is no animus toward players who choose not to hear his message.

Edipis: Vinz_Clortho:
So...a coach saying a prayer or taking kids to church is equivilent to the government establishing a religion?

if his program accepts government funding, yes, yes it is.

I think that the Constitution would disagree with you.

Legitimate question, but having grown up agnostic and playing sports, I don't really have a problem with it. Coaches and teachers should have some latitude in these areas regardless of their beliefs. Not saying I like proselytizing, but some people's faith makes up for a large part of who they are. I got no problem with people trying to relate as humans and not as automatons.

I went to my second NBA game ever the other night and the game was opened with a prayer. Is this normal?

Vinz_Clortho: Also, no where in the article does it say anyone complained.

That doesn't necessarily mean that no one has a problem with it or that it's the right thing to do.

Edipis: Vinz_Clortho:
So...a coach saying a prayer or taking kids to church is equivilent to the government establishing a religion?

if his program accepts government funding, yes, yes it is.

There are many different religions that meet on college campuses, using their facilities. I guess they all are illegal and should be banned?

Di Atribe: Vinz_Clortho: Also, no where in the article does it say anyone complained.

That doesn't necessarily mean that no one has a problem with it or that it's the right thing to do.

The author is saying it is unconstitutional.

drewkumo: Imagine if there was a muslim college coach that insisted upon leading students in worship, or said "Allahu Akbar" after a win. Would you feel the same then, even if he had Christian students on the team?

SRSLY, that's usually a good test of the "is this appropriate or not."

If this hypothetical Muslim proselytizing coach similarly said there was no animus toward players who don't participate, would that make it A-OK for everyone? I kinda suspect not.

The prayer before games is probably pretty easy to blow off. It's the "taking them to services" part that's beyond what most places would do.

Is praying for Subby.

Di Atribe: williamzabka: I am about as atheist as they come, but if you find yourself in the position the article writer states, just don't say the damn prayer. Is it that hard? Happens to me every once in a while in life (weddings, family dinners, etc.), I just don't pray and sit there quietly. No need to be a dick.

It appears to be a little more than just a quick prayer before games.

I'm with the author when she says that she doesn't get why God gets credit when they win, but none of the blame when they lose. I guess the other team just prayed harder, eh?

Whatever, its not like these are smart people we are dealing with. Anyone who thinks god has anything to do with whether they win their sporting event is suspect at best. I just go with what was said earlier, there are way worse problems with college sports nowadays that coaches praying doesn't get to me. No one is getting kicked off the team for it yet. And when someone does I will be screaming the loudest about it.

Speedbts alt: I went to my second NBA game ever the other night and the game was opened with a prayer. Is this normal?

Dunno, my county board opens their meetings with a request for God to grant them wisdom. I just silently roll my eyes, though I think it's not okay for them to be doing that, there's bigger issues.

Main one is, he sure doesn't seem to be listening...

Engel v. Vitale, the Supreme Court ruled in school prayer unconstitutional as long as the ruling stands, this would be considered unconstitutional.

Vinz_Clortho: He says there is no animus toward players who choose not to hear his message.

He said he organizes two trips to Baptist churches. Can you opt out of that? He only said that he received parental permission. Either way, it's not his place to proselytizing from his position of influence. Either way the players hear his message, they choose whether to accept it or not. If a devout Christian was force to listen to a Hindu prayer and bow/be respectful, I think you would have a different attitude.

Can you imagine being the only guy standing while the rest of the team takes a knee in prayer? You don't believe that there is atmosphere of coercion involved with a football coach saying a team prayer before the team takes the field?

Vinz_Clortho: There are many different religions that meet on college campuses, using their facilities. I guess they all are illegal and should be banned?

The idea is that school can't preferentially recognize one religion. Not that no religion can meet anywhere on campus. But still nice strawman.

itazurakko: drewkumo: Imagine if there was a muslim college coach that insisted upon leading students in worship, or said "Allahu Akbar" after a win. Would you feel the same then, even if he had Christian students on the team?

SRSLY, that's usually a good test of the "is this appropriate or not."

If this hypothetical Muslim proselytizing coach similarly said there was no animus toward players who don't participate, would that make it A-OK for everyone? I kinda suspect not.

The prayer before games is probably pretty easy to blow off. It's the "taking them to services" part that's beyond what most places would do.

Actually, I think that would be a refreshing change as opposed to when you typically hear that being shouted.

drewkumo: Engel v. Vitale, the Supreme Court ruled in school prayer unconstitutional as long as the ruling stands, this would be considered unconstitutional.

Vinz_Clortho: He says there is no animus toward players who choose not to hear his message.

He said he organizes two trips to Baptist churches. Can you opt out of that? He only said that he received parental permission. Either way, it's not his place to proselytizing from his position of influence. Either way the players hear his message, they choose whether to accept it or not. If a devout Christian was force to listen to a Hindu prayer and bow/be respectful, I think you would have a different attitude.

Can you imagine being the only guy standing while the rest of the team takes a knee in prayer? You don't believe that there is atmosphere of coercion involved with a football coach saying a team prayer before the team takes the field?

Vinz_Clortho: There are many different religions that meet on college campuses, using their facilities. I guess they all are illegal and should be banned?

The idea is that school can't preferentially recognize one religion. Not that no religion can meet anywhere on campus. But still nice strawman.

Most of the on field prayers are led by students. It would be interesting to know how these coaches acutally are towards kids of other religions. Bowden has been coaching a hundred years and I've never heard of this being an issue...

Because when you unleash the dragon, all you can do is pray the guy catches it

Vinz_Clortho: Most of the on field prayers are led by students. It would be interesting to know how these coaches acutally are towards kids of other religions. Bowden has been coaching a hundred years and I've never heard of this being an issue...

Yeah, except we were talking about the locker room prayers/organized trips to organized religion. You wouldn't hear these kids complaining about their coach, he's not going to fired over it. They know damn well that they need his support to future their athletic careers/stay on scholarship.

By the way,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Liberation_Front_of_Tripura

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_God_%28USA%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Coalition_of_Life_Activists

I'm sure there were some "Hallelujahs" during these group's murders. You pot, Islamists kettle.

drewkumo: Vinz_Clortho: Most of the on field prayers are led by students. It would be interesting to know how these coaches acutally are towards kids of other religions. Bowden has been coaching a hundred years and I've never heard of this being an issue...

Yeah, except we were talking about the locker room prayers/organized trips to organized religion. You wouldn't hear these kids complaining about their coach, he's not going to fired over it. They know damn well that they need his support to future their athletic careers/stay on scholarship.

By the way,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Liberation_Front_of_Tripura

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_God_%28USA%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Coalition_of_Life_Activists

I'm sure there were some "Hallelujahs" during these group's murders. You pot, Islamists kettle.

That no one (that I've read) was forced or coercered into attending.

No sure what the other links are for...too lazy to check.

Vinz_Clortho: No sure what the other links are for...too lazy to check.

They are forced to attend a pre-game locker room prayer.

Vinz_Clortho: Actually, I think that would be a refreshing change as opposed to when you typically hear that being shouted.

The other links are just to demonstrate that terrorists aren't just muslims, and people with your belief system are radicals too.