And yet a year later why is it that the Mac hardware holds it value at resale while the others can be had for pennies on the dollar?

Elzar: And yet a year later why is it that the Mac hardware holds it value at resale while the others can be had for pennies on the dollar?

Because the others have competition to keep up with?

Elzar: And yet a year later why is it that the Mac hardware holds it value at resale while the others can be had for pennies on the dollar?

Because the world is full of idiots who overpay for hardware just because it's a Mac.

My Wang is old, but nicely built.

Elzar: And yet a year later why is it that the Mac hardware holds it value at resale while the others can be had for pennies on the dollar?

The same reason it costs about $125 to purchase a mint The Fall Guy lunchbox on ebay right now.

Because it's f*cking hip, man.

This is the first time I have ever misread Asus as Anus.

But they build them badly out of the highest quality parts.

Superevil: This is the first time I have ever misread Asus as Anus.

But is it the last?

Elzar: And yet a year later why is it that the Mac hardware holds it value at resale while the others can be had for pennies on the dollar?

the new macbook pros are rife with problems. they're junk. farking expensive junk.

Rev.K: Superevil: This is the first time I have ever misread Asus as Anus.

But is it the last?

Knowing me? Not a chance.

While Dell was less than one percentage point above Apple on the three-year estimated statistics

As someone who has been through two other Dell work laptops, I'm not sure I'm getting a kick out of this article. If Apple is this close to Dell in terms of quality (or lack thereof), they have a lot of work to do.

Superevil: This is the first time I have ever misread Asus as Ansus.

FTFM

As a Mac guy who makes his living supporting Windows system, my experience doesn't bear this out.

In these times of single year warranties, I wonder how many post-warranty failures go unreported, since the relative replacement cost on a PC notebook relative to repair cost is so close. I expect that Mac owners are *more likely* to purchase Applecare, if only because of that subgroup of owners that are buying Mac for the hassle-free ownership in the first place.

I have no hard data to back any of this up. But if Toshiba comes out near the top, given how their quality has taken a nosedive in the last 5 years, then I find this report to be suspect.

unyon: As a Mac guy who makes his living supporting Windows system, my experience doesn't bear this out.

In these times of single year warranties, I wonder how many post-warranty failures go unreported, since the relative replacement cost on a PC notebook relative to repair cost is so close. I expect that Mac owners are *more likely* to purchase Applecare, if only because of that subgroup of owners that are buying Mac for the hassle-free ownership in the first place.

I have no hard data to back any of this up. But if Toshiba comes out near the top, given how their quality has taken a nosedive in the last 5 years, then I find this report to be suspect.

I did Apple tech support a few years ago and from my personal experience about 8 out of 10 people that called had Applecare.

unyon: As a Mac guy who makes his living supporting Windows system, my experience doesn't bear this out.

You're experience means nothing, Mac fanboi. The fact that your a sellout supporting windows while claiming to use Macs is suspect as well. Why are you people so stupid? Linux is the superior OS and will also extend the life of any of laptop hardware you run it on.

/Too soon in the thread?

unyon: But if Toshiba comes out near the top, given how their quality has taken a nosedive in the last 5 years, then I find this report to be suspect.

THIS. And Sony? Really? Last Sony I bought needed a new battery after a year, at a replacement cost of $225.

Hau Ruck: unyon: As a Mac guy who makes his living supporting Windows system, my experience doesn't bear this out.

You're experience means nothing, Mac fanboi. The fact that your a sellout supporting windows while claiming to use Macs is suspect as well. Why are you people so stupid? Linux is the superior OS and will also extend the life of any of laptop hardware you run it on.

/Too soon in the thread?

A little. Usually Linux_Yes is batting lead-off, but yours is so much more creative and coherent that I say go with it!

doublesecretprobation: the new macbook pros are rife with problems. they're junk. farking expensive junk.

My anecdotal evidence beats your anecdotal evidence since my MacBook Pro purchased a few months ago is running perfectly.

PainInTheASP: Hau Ruck:

/Too soon in the thread?

A little. Usually Linux_Yes is batting lead-off, but yours is so much more creative and coherent that I say go with it!

I thought we moved him to the clean-up spot. Dammit.

oldebayer: But they build them badly out of the highest quality parts.

Fourth is "badly?" Yeah ok. Looking that the data it was those four in the top tier of build quality and then everyone else.

Well, that and the computer costs twice as much as a PC for the same level of technology.

I just came in here to biatch about HP. Two years and two fixes later and it barely functions.

GAT_00: Well, that and the computer costs twice as much as a PC for the same level of technology.

As an analogy, there are reasons why an Accord costs twice as much as a Kia.

Only 4th? I figured more like 10th, Apple hardware is totally unreliable.
... in fact, you can rely on it only to break down.

Don't get me wrong.
Here at home I have a Macbook pro, Mac mini Server, Xserve, AppleTV, AppleExtreme BaseStation and 2 AirportExpresses.

My last PC was purchased in 1999, it was an NEC Cereb NX, a non-US Japanese market only prototype running Win98. Number of hardware failures: 0.

I used this machine till the last half of 2001, number of hard ware failures? 0.
But here's my experience so far with Apple over the years:
2001: Powermac, died in 2003 due to harddrive failure
2003: Powermac, died in 2005 due to hardrive failure
2003: iBook G4: did in 2005 due to harddrive failure
2005: G5 Workstation: Died in 2007 due to on-board logic processor malfunction... dead mainboard
2007: MacbookPro: died 2008 due to beer wielding cat (so not apple's fault)
2008: MacbookPro: died 2009 due to BlackScreen of death, will take to Apple for AppleCare repair

We're looking at a near 100% death due to crappy hardware rate.
mainly due to their shiatty HD... but that says a lot right there.
It's a known issue, yet they keep on slinging the shiat and charging a premium for it.

Am I gonna go running back to Windows?
Hell farking no. Just be sure to buy AppleCare and upgrade every 2 - 2.5 years and you'll be ok.

Hender: As an analogy, there are reasons why an Accord costs twice as much as a Kia.

I can buy a laptop with the same specs as a Mac for $400 easy. It's $1k+ for a Mac. Yet Mac fanbois say Windows is the expensive software?

rcain: mainly due to their shiatty HD... but that says a lot right there.

Commodity item. Check your wiring.

GAT_00: Hender: As an analogy, there are reasons why an Accord costs twice as much as a Kia.

I can buy a laptop with the same specs as a Mac for $400 easy. It's $1k+ for a Mac. Yet Mac fanbois say Windows is the expensive software?

Really? You can buy a PC laptop with a glass LED-backlit screen, a built-in webcam, multi-touch (glass) trackpad, full-size backlit keyboard, aluminum exterior, 1" thick that weighs 5 lbs. for $400?

Oh wait, you said specs, because the speed of the CPU is all that matters. Sure, you can buy a laptop for $400.

Hender: GAT_00: Hender: As an analogy, there are reasons why an Accord costs twice as much as a Kia.

I can buy a laptop with the same specs as a Mac for $400 easy. It's $1k+ for a Mac. Yet Mac fanbois say Windows is the expensive software?

Really? You can buy a PC laptop with a glass LED-backlit screen, a built-in webcam, multi-touch (glass) trackpad, full-size backlit keyboard, aluminum exterior, 1" thick that weighs 5 lbs. for $400?

Oh wait, you said specs, because the speed of the CPU is all that matters. Sure, you can buy a laptop for $400.

It never takes long "ZOMG Glass, Ooooooo"

IT Manager here.
I am a Windows user through and through. Started on 2.0 and really learned on 3.1; and i have used every OS since including 7 ultimate.
At the same time, my mother is a Mac user; so i've used OS 6 on up.

Recently we picked up an all-mac client, so i got to replace my DELL Latitude D630 with a brand new MacBookPro 15. My first mac! Running 10.6 no less.

Here are my thoughts, and some issues I have had:
Learning curve - Going from PC to Mac is easy. Going from Mac to PC is hard.
Speed - Equal given equal hardware.
Modifiability - Macs none at all, PC's you can modify everything.

Frustations - Mac lots, PC little.
For instance, I broke the Delete key off my MBP. I have applecare.
I broke keys on my DELL as well while I had it. 3 year next day warranty.
When DELL was contacted; 2 days later I had a new key in a baggy in a padded envelope at my door.
When APPLE was contacted I had to go to the Apple Store, was told I needed to make an appointment for the next day. So I made an appointment and went back the next day. The Genius Bar told me I had to come back 3 days later, and leave the laptop for 2 days SO THEY COULD REPLACE THE KEYBOARD.

Now, this is where there is a big difference between APPLE and DELL/HP/ETC. Apple does not understand business needs. This is a business system, and to make ME go to THEM REPEATEDLY so they could REPLACE THE KEYBOARD FOR A BROKEN KEY. Was farking stupid.
In the business world, time is money, and APPLE cost me plenty of time. Despite my insisting both to AppleCare on the phone and to the Genius bar that I could not accommodate this without SERIOUS LOSS OF INCOME, this was the best they could do.
1 broken key. A new one could easily be popped on. Nope. fark APPLE.



So far, I like my MacBook Pro. It is fast, it's got a cool aluminum body and lots of features. But in comparison to the PC world? Hands down, PCs. We need fast, we need smart, and we need flexibility. Apple does not have that.

SoothinglyDeranged: Hender: GAT_00: Hender: As an analogy, there are reasons why an Accord costs twice as much as a Kia.

I can buy a laptop with the same specs as a Mac for $400 easy. It's $1k+ for a Mac. Yet Mac fanbois say Windows is the expensive software?

Really? You can buy a PC laptop with a glass LED-backlit screen, a built-in webcam, multi-touch (glass) trackpad, full-size backlit keyboard, aluminum exterior, 1" thick that weighs 5 lbs. for $400?

Oh wait, you said specs, because the speed of the CPU is all that matters. Sure, you can buy a laptop for $400.

It never takes long "ZOMG Glass, Ooooooo"

It's not class--you pay more and you get more. If you don't want more than a $400 laptop offers, then don't buy a Mac. It's not rocket surgery.

But using price and specs as the only comparison leaves out a lot of relevant info.

R.A.Danny: Commodity item. Check your wiring.

Check my wiring in a laptop?
Coincidentally, aside from the macbookPro with the Blackscreen of death, the only other Mac I've had not fail because of HD failure is the G5 workstation, which had an easily accessible HD. Accessing HD's on a laptop? Not so easy.

Also, reports are in on the SSD's in the Macbook AIR and MacbookPro... and they suck.
Dog slow and cheaply built. However, SSD's are far less likely to fail than a magnetic disc... so I'm considering going SSD for all future laptop purchases since a little less performance is ok if it gives me better reliability. And with over 6TB of storage on my home LAN, the smaller HD capacity of an SSD is fine too.

rcain: 2001: Powermac PowerBook, died in 2003 due to harddrive failure
2003: Powermac PowerBook, died in 2005 due to hardrive failure

FTFM, the 2005 G5 Workstation was the desktop model aside from a couple mini's I bought and sold.

Hender: Really? You can buy a PC laptop with a glass LED-backlit screen, a built-in webcam, multi-touch (glass) trackpad, full-size backlit keyboard, aluminum exterior, 1" thick that weighs 5 lbs. for $400?

Oh wait, you said specs, because the speed of the CPU is all that matters. Sure, you can buy a laptop for $400.

You seem to be confusing features with performance.

GAT_00: I can buy a laptop with the same specs as a Mac for $400 easy. It's $1k+ for a Mac. Yet Mac fanbois say Windows is the expensive software?

$1k+???

The Mac-Mini, let me show it to you (new window)
Sure, they have a Mac-Mini Server for $1k... which has dual 500GB HD's, which run as a single 1TB striped RAID0 disc on mine... and comes with OSX Snow Leopard Server, which costs $499.00 when purchased a la carte.

GAT_00: Hender: Really? You can buy a PC laptop with a glass LED-backlit screen, a built-in webcam, multi-touch (glass) trackpad, full-size backlit keyboard, aluminum exterior, 1" thick that weighs 5 lbs. for $400?

Oh wait, you said specs, because the speed of the CPU is all that matters. Sure, you can buy a laptop for $400.

You seem to be confusing features with performance.

If you only compare performance and price, then PCs always win. I readily admit that. If you don't mind giving up 100 Mhz, you can get a lot in return. I've been through four or five laptops and my MacBook Pro is the best I've ever owned from a build standpoint. It's thin, it's light, I love the multi-touch trackpad, I love how solid the aluminum body is, I love that my screen has a glass coating, etc. etc.

In other words, you get what you pay for.

When was the last time you could tell the difference between 2.53 Ghz and 2.6 Ghz, anyway?

GAT_00: I can buy a laptop

D'oh! My bad.
Still... Mac is about features, and if you don't like features, so be it.
But I'd like to see you capture video and encode to DVD on a $400 PC laptop without buying any new software. The features on a Mac are worth the price.

But if you just want cheap, Apple's not for you.
So don't diss Apple just because you prefer a Volvo over a Benz.

rcain: So don't diss Apple just because you prefer a Volvo Kia over a Benz.

If you're buying a laptop and limiting yourself to $400, my change above is more accurate.

rcain: 2001: Powermac, died in 2003 due to harddrive failure
2003: Powermac, died in 2005 due to hardrive failure
2003: iBook G4: did in 2005 due to harddrive failure

Apple doesn't make their own hard drives, so how is a failure of an OEM part their fault? Also, HD failures are not rare for ANY platform. That's what backups are for.

rcain: Only 4th? I figured more like 10th, Apple hardware is totally unreliable.
... in fact, you can rely on it only to break down.

lots o' info

My experience is the exact opposite. Between my father, wife, and myself we've had...

2004 eMac. HD failed under warranty, since then perfect. Still using
2004 iBook. No problems. Gave to a friend's 11 year old daughter, still using
2005. iMac G5 17" (father), iMac G5 20" (me). Both still used daily, no problems at all.

iPods... 4th gen, mini, 5.5 gen, 3 shuffles, many given as gifts... zero failures, all still working.

iPhones... 1st gen on release day, still using 2.5 years later every day. 3G 15 months ago... still using daily.

Airport Express x2... still using daily, no issues.

No company makes fail proof hardware, but apple has come closer than any other company I've dealt with. My last 2 Dells were trashed after less than 2 years.

YMMV.

Lundah: Apple doesn't make their own hard drives, so how is a failure of an OEM part their fault?

Well, Apple doesn't manufacture the mainboard, either, but if a mainboard died it would mean the laptop died and thus an Apple laptop died. The key difference, though, is that hard drives are easier to replace and can be done by a user with some know-how. Laptop mainboard replacements are a little trickier, speaking from experience.

Lundah: rcain: 2001: Powermac, died in 2003 due to harddrive failure
2003: Powermac, died in 2005 due to hardrive failure
2003: iBook G4: did in 2005 due to harddrive failure

Apple doesn't make their own hard drives, so how is a failure of an OEM part their fault? Also, HD failures are not rare for ANY platform. That's what backups are for.

It's their fault because after years of putting shiatty HD's in their products, THEY CONTINUE TO DO IT. This is a very well known issue, and Apple has no claim of ignorance here. It's the number one point of failure on their machines. Ask any Apple service tech, they will tell you that Apple is notorious for their shiatty HDs. In fact, on my next laptop purchase, I'm seriously considering doing what many people do who want a Mac Laptop but HATE the crap HDs: Pay a certified tech to install an aftermarket HD to insure performance and reliability.

Weh you consider that the PowermacPro is sold as a professional grade laptop, yet has an HD that is 80% likely to fail within 2 years and then compare the cost of an AppleCare place vs the cost of Apple replacing a dead HD in a laptop. ... think it might just be a scam to increase revenue via insurance? Just maybe?

And I'll tell you another thing: With a dead HD, even if you have a backup you're dead in the water because your machine IS BROKEN. And as a professional, it's unacceptable to be unable to work, so I always have more than one machine floating around. And more often than not, I take the defective unit for repair and at the same time, buy a replacement then sell the refurbished unit upon it's return.

rcain: Weh you consider that the PowermacPro is sold as a professional grade laptop, yet has an HD that is 80% likely to fail within 2 years

[citation needed]

rcain: I used this machine till the last half of 2001, number of hard ware failures? 0.
But here's my experience so far with Apple over the years:
2001: Powermac, died in 2003 due to harddrive failure
2003: Powermac, died in 2005 due to hardrive failure
2003: iBook G4: did in 2005 due to harddrive failure
2005: G5 Workstation: Died in 2007 due to on-board logic processor malfunction... dead mainboard
2007: MacbookPro: died 2008 due to beer wielding cat (so not apple's fault)
2008: MacbookPro: died 2009 due to BlackScreen of death, will take to Apple for AppleCare repair

See, my Powerbook has been chugging along without a hardware problem (aside from the slow inevitable battery death) for going on 7 years now. I had what I thought were some logic board issues awhile back, but they somehow resolved themselves with an OS update.

/Of course, now that I can't run the new operating system, it may be time to retire the old girl.

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: /Of course, now that I can't run the new operating system, it may be time to retire the old girl.

Your OS sounds fat.

alywa: No company makes fail proof hardware, but apple has come closer than any other company I've dealt with. My last 2 Dells were trashed after less than 2 years.

Not saying anyone does make foolproof hardware, but I've had hardware issues with just about every Mac machine I've ever had. However, their "play toys" such as AppleTV, iPod, iPhones etc, all seem to hold up great. It's the stuff I rely upon to make a living that seems to encounter failure. One or two HD failures over the majority of a decade, I could understand... but running near a 100% rate of failure within 2 years for professional grade eqpt? Un-farking-acceptable.

Granted, my stuff gets serious use, but that's implied for pro-grade gear.
If it was just an iBook/Macbook every here and there, I wouldn't even bother to talk about it.

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: See, my Powerbook has been chugging along without a hardware problem (aside from the slow inevitable battery death) for going on 7 years now

Well how nice for you. Wish I could afford to have one machine for 7 years, but within 3, it'd be worthless to me even if it never had a failure at all. Maybe our usage patterns are diff't. My machines are worked very hard, since I work hard myself and they are used for my occupation. But as I said, I expect professional grade gear to hold up to those sort of stresses. It's not like I'm dropping them or taking a hammer to them.

Having good quality equipment when you are shelling out $2,500 or more for a laptop should not be a matter of luck. But, that's why I buy AppleCare... because with Apple it is a matter of luck.

rcain: Having good quality equipment when you are shelling out $2,500 or more for a laptop should not be a matter of luck.

Well, since most of your issues involved hard drives, it's a good thing Apple includes Time Machine with OS X now, amirite? :)

Hender: rcain: Having good quality equipment when you are shelling out $2,500 or more for a laptop should not be a matter of luck.

Well, since most of your issues involved hard drives, it's a good thing Apple includes Time Machine with OS X now, amirite? :)

You're ignoring the fact that he's had repetitive failures with hardware, which shouldn't happen, and your solution is "Well, they know it happens so they are well prepared for the failures." How about using better hard drives? Or allowing competition and giving options?

GAT_00: Hender: rcain: Having good quality equipment when you are shelling out $2,500 or more for a laptop should not be a matter of luck.

Well, since most of your issues involved hard drives, it's a good thing Apple includes Time Machine with OS X now, amirite? :)

You're ignoring the fact that he's had repetitive failures with hardware, which shouldn't happen, and your solution is "Well, they know it happens so they are well prepared for the failures." How about using better hard drives? Or allowing competition and giving options?

"Allowing competition"? How exactly has Apple not allowed competition? If you mean by allowing others to build Macs and sell them, the last time they did that the company nearly went under. I don't see that happening ever again.

Besides, unless someone can point me to a hard drive reliability survey in laptop computers, it's one person's anecdotal evidence that they put shiatty hard drives in their laptops.