Big overhead omnipotent bastard is electrifying subby

/as we speak

Pre-destination?

Sort of like an ARM but more Biblical.

Good. We need fewer churches.

those jebus people and their money trobles!

The building does not a church make. Of course, don't try telling that to any friggin religious group. Every congregation I've been a member of had a huge building fund, and a renovation campaign, and...

Hey, hookers and blow are expensive. The leaky roof can wait, it's time to get the good Lord's freak on!

crab66: Good. We need fewer churches.

Yeah, it's really horrible people find something that gives them meaning and hope, extends their lives and raises their standard of living.

This is a horrible thing, and must be stopped.

ptelg: crab66: Good. We need fewer churches.

Yeah, it's really horrible people find something that gives them meaning and hope, extends their lives and raises their standard of living.

This is a horrible thing, and must be stopped.

Legislating morality. Perpetuating bigotry. Demonizing intellectualism and education.

Those strangely don't make your list.

I could go on.


Religion does far more harm than good and it's been that way throughout history.

crab66: ptelg: crab66: Good. We need fewer churches.

Yeah, it's really horrible people find something that gives them meaning and hope, extends their lives and raises their standard of living.

This is a horrible thing, and must be stopped.

Legislating morality. Perpetuating bigotry. Demonizing intellectualism and education.

Those strangely don't make your list.

I could go on.


Religion does far more harm than good and it's been that way throughout history.

Aw, c'mon - no need to look at it negatively. Look at it this way:

Religion = Opiate of the masses
Opiates = Drugs
Drugs = Fun
Fun = Happiness
Happiness = Good

therefore

Religion = Good

/Isn't that logical?
//Isn't that how it works?

buddyrtr: crab66: ptelg: crab66: Good. We need fewer churches.

Yeah, it's really horrible people find something that gives them meaning and hope, extends their lives and raises their standard of living.

This is a horrible thing, and must be stopped.

Legislating morality. Perpetuating bigotry. Demonizing intellectualism and education.

Those strangely don't make your list.

I could go on.


Religion does far more harm than good and it's been that way throughout history.

Aw, c'mon - no need to look at it negatively. Look at it this way:

Religion = Opiate of the masses
Opiates = Drugs
Drugs = Fun
Fun = Happiness
Happiness = Good

therefore

Religion = Good

/Isn't that logical?
//Isn't that how it works?

Religion = Choir boy sex (balls are touching)
Choir boy sex = gay
Gay = bad (according to church)
bad = Church
Church is bad

StarshipPooper: Religion = Opiate of the masses
Opiates = Drugs
Drugs = Fun
Fun = Happiness
Happiness = Good

therefore

Religion = Good

/Isn't that logical?
//Isn't that how it works?

Religion = Choir boy sex (balls are touching)
Choir boy sex = gay
Gay = bad (according to church)
bad = Church
Church is bad

I think your example shows that Religion = Church.

/went one step too far

oneodd1:


I think your example shows that Religion = Church.

/went one step too far

Nah, now you're just a Catholic.

Reminds me of Steve Taylor's great satirical song "Guilty by Association." The trust isn't in God, its in the dollar.

It's a Telethon Tuesday for The Gospel Club
"Send your money in now or they're gonna pull the plug!"
Just remember this fact when they plead and beg
When The Chicken Squawks Loudest Gonna Lay A Big Egg
You could be smelling a crook
You should be checking The Book
But you'd rather listen than look
The implication, Guilty by association

Churches take money, they don't give it out, dumbasses.

that is why they love their tax free status. the get to participate in our Government(which is unconstitutional), yet not pay any taxes. its a win win!


Even God can't handle money. he's all powerful, but damn, can't handle money. always needs more of it.

the government will bail them out. Credit Unions have their version of the FDIC.

Wow.. next time put faith in Jews.

Linux_Yes: Even God can't handle money. he's all powerful, but damn, can't handle money. always needs more of it.

So what your saying is that God is Steve Jobs?

Didn't they have bartering back then? All he would have to do is summon some bread and fish and turn water into wine and trade it. His version of printing money.

Evil Twin Skippy: The building does not a church make. Of course, don't try telling that to any friggin religious group. Every congregation I've been a member of had a huge building fund, and a renovation campaign, and...


do you ever get a chance to sit in on the financial meetings? I went to a church that did, while they did have a few committees (site committee, planning committee, budget committee) it was interesting to see what they were actually working on.

...because when I'm lending money I totally disregard revenue streams and any history of costly litigation...

/if only there were some type of organization that just gave money and support to those in need...

crab66: ptelg: Yeah, it's really horrible people find something that gives them meaning and hope, extends their lives and raises their standard of living.

...

Religion does far more harm than good and it's been that way throughout history.

I look forward to this debate being settled once and for all, today, on this website, in this thread. We're on the verge of history here, people!

crab66: Good. We need fewer churches.

Wow, you're so hip and edgy! How can I learn to be an asshole hipster like you?

/What we need is less intolerance
//Douchebag

ptelg: crab66: Good. We need fewer churches.

Yeah, it's really horrible people find something that gives them meaning and hope, extends their lives and raises their standard of living.

This is a horrible thing, and must be stopped.

I've gone to chruch all my life, and I agree with the idea that we need fewer church buildings. I've never understood why every group of 50 people needs it's own building that gets used for maybe 3 hours a week. Yeah stained glass is pretty but I think God should be able to hear your prayers just as well in a school gym as in the Sistine Chapel.

ptelg: crab66: Good. We need fewer churches.

Yeah, it's really horrible people find something that gives them meaning and hope, extends their lives and raises their standard of living.

This is a horrible thing, and must be stopped.

What if pot gives me meaning and hope? Ventilators can extend your life, too - hell, my grandma was one one for 3 days with no autonomous nerve function. Bank robbing can increase quality of life, if you do it right.

Agnosticism has given my life more meaning than it had as a theist - I now live to serve my fellow man, not some invisible deity who only talks in my head; my good deeds are done specifically to directly affect the quality of others' lives, not to tick a box on a metaphysical list.

Religion isn't bad. Gaudy showmanship religion - like megachurches that totally defy the notion of community - is horrible and cheapens the other kind.

Dr Dreidel: I now live to serve my fellow man, not some invisible deity who only talks in my head; my good deeds are done specifically to directly affect the quality of others' lives, not to tick a box on a metaphysical list.

see, if that's how you were doing things as a Christian

you were doing it wrong to begin with

now, maybe you were mormon or jw or something, but the whole bit was by faith, not works so you couldn't do a list of maneuvers and poof instant heaven once you've reached your 3rd conversion or something.

of course, the corollary would be also, if you were saved, and it'd be obvious by the way you acted, including things like you say you're doing now.

churches are full of folks who kind of miss those 2 points

btw, thanks for serving the community man

nelsonal: I've gone to chruch all my life, and I agree with the idea that we need fewer church buildings. I've never understood why every group of 50 people needs it's own building that gets used for maybe 3 hours a week. Yeah stained glass is pretty but I think God should be able to hear your prayers just as well in a school gym as in the Sistine Chapel.

They don't even try to make modern churches look nice. There's one in my town that looks like an airplane hangar with a steeple. Another is built in an ex-K-Mart (better than the building being empty, I suppose).

At least those old cathedrals in Europe are beautiful architecture.

loonatic112358: Dr Dreidel: I now live to serve my fellow man, not some invisible deity who only talks in my head; my good deeds are done specifically to directly affect the quality of others' lives, not to tick a box on a metaphysical list.

see, if that's how you were doing things as a Christian

you were doing it wrong to begin with

now, maybe you were mormon or jw or something, but the whole bit was by faith, not works so you couldn't do a list of maneuvers and poof instant heaven once you've reached your 3rd conversion or something.

of course, the corollary would be also, if you were saved, and it'd be obvious by the way you acted, including things like you say you're doing now.

churches are full of folks who kind of miss those 2 points

btw, thanks for serving the community man

Re-check my handle. J00 all the way (15 years of parochial school, 1 in seminary).

// I'm no saint; my really good works are too few and far between

Dr Dreidel: e-check my handle. J00 all the way (15 years of parochial school, 1 in seminary).

// I'm no saint; my really good works are too few and far between

doh

i have an excuse for my idiocy today, i spent much of last nigth feeling sick, and so slept little

now i need an excuse for te rest of the time

FuturePastNow: nelsonal: I've gone to chruch all my life, and I agree with the idea that we need fewer church buildings. I've never understood why every group of 50 people needs it's own building that gets used for maybe 3 hours a week. Yeah stained glass is pretty but I think God should be able to hear your prayers just as well in a school gym as in the Sistine Chapel.

They don't even try to make modern churches look nice. There's one in my town that looks like an airplane hangar with a steeple. Another is built in an ex-K-Mart (better than the building being empty, I suppose).

At least those old cathedrals in Europe are beautiful architecture.

Those old chapels in Europe were the most expensive buildings of their day and were built with funds from the entire community.

Churches today have to make do with whatever its members decide to give (most of whom don't give much at all). The building is usually the largest single chunk of the budget, right after staffing (and in some places, they actually pay their ministerial staff less than they pay for building related expenses).

Buildings are a popular expense for churches because it's easy to see and people like to give money to them more so than anything else- you see the results immediately and can enjoy them.

I agree that modern churches are WAY too wrapped up in their buildings, but some places do get use out of them; larger churches usually have something going on there just about all the time. Smaller churches, not so much. However, commercial rental costs being what they are, most churches would end up spending just as much to rent as they would to buy. Temporary locations (like schools, movie theaters) involve major compromises of their own; there just aren't many places that can suit the needs of even a relatively modest (say, 120 in attendance) church.

The rising delinquencies haven't resulted in substantial write-offs, in part because ECCU loans on average equal 58 percent of underlying property values, providing a buffer against potential losses on the sale of foreclosed mortgages, according to Mark Johnson, an ECCU vice president. The company, which had never charged off a church mortgage prior to 2007, has since had about $4.3 million in losses, including $3.14 million during the first nine months of this year.

That equals about 0.39 percent of average loans, compared with a charge-off rate of 2.24 percent for commercial lenders overall, according to Federal Reserve data for the end of June.


Sounds to me like subtard can't read. There are plenty of reasons to hate religion, inventing new ones makes you look stupid.

Did the credit union charge interest?

God hates Him some interest.

TheJoeY: Did the credit union charge interest?

God hates Him some interest.

You know they share the same God as the Jews right?

I should add that when it comes to money and investing, I specifically avoid those whose advertising consists of claims to have the same metaphysical beliefs as me. I just don't care whether they go to church or not; I want somebody who is competent financially. Some Christians are, some are not. If you are a good money manager, I will see that reflected by others; I was referred to the guy I use from others who have benefited greatly from his guidance. Religion didn't enter into it.

When somebody says "give me all your money, I go to the same church you do" (or any variation thereof), it should be a red flag.

akula: Temporary locations (like schools, movie theaters) involve major compromises of their own; there just aren't many places that can suit the needs of even a relatively modest (say, 120 in attendance) church.

Bullshiat. A synagogue in my parents' community started in response to the community growing and living too far to walk (they're Jews, remember). For almost 10 years, it was housed in a modest 3-bedroom house*: a main sanctuary, a smaller one for the youth services, and two upstairs rooms for the little ones. Easily 150 people every Saturday at the main services, another 50-75 youth (plus the wee ones).

It was ungodly hot in the summer, but it worked just fine until the community had enough to build its own synagogue down the block.

*it's the one on the corner, below and left of the marker

FuturePastNow: nelsonal: I've gone to chruch all my life, and I agree with the idea that we need fewer church buildings. I've never understood why every group of 50 people needs it's own building that gets used for maybe 3 hours a week. Yeah stained glass is pretty but I think God should be able to hear your prayers just as well in a school gym as in the Sistine Chapel.

They don't even try to make modern churches look nice. There's one in my town that looks like an airplane hangar with a steeple. Another is built in an ex-K-Mart (better than the building being empty, I suppose).

At least those old cathedrals in Europe are beautiful architecture.

Catholic Churches (those few that get built anymore) in the US are still, often, architectural masterpieces in one way or another.

The Protestants other than the Angelicans/Episcopalians have no eye for church construction. Megachurches may as well be sports venues for all the architectural clues they include.

I live across the street from a MegaChurch that has a large, pastel-neon cross in the entryway (you can see it from the road, and when I was in there voting, saw it up close). It's a dead ringer for the neon fixtures in Lopan's underworld in "Big Trouble in Little China".

/nice knife
//goodbye Mr Burton

Dr Dreidel: akula: Temporary locations (like schools, movie theaters) involve major compromises of their own; there just aren't many places that can suit the needs of even a relatively modest (say, 120 in attendance) church.

Bullshiat. A synagogue in my parents' community started in response to the community growing and living too far to walk (they're Jews, remember). For almost 10 years, it was housed in a modest 3-bedroom house*: a main sanctuary, a smaller one for the youth services, and two upstairs rooms for the little ones. Easily 150 people every Saturday at the main services, another 50-75 youth (plus the wee ones).

It was ungodly hot in the summer, but it worked just fine until the community had enough to build its own synagogue down the block.

*it's the one on the corner, below and left of the marker

Getting a little emotional in this with the "bullshiat" call, don't you think?

I'm not talking a Jewish synagogue. You try and run a congregation of even 50 out of a medium sized house and you're going to have no end of trouble from the neighbors complaining about noise on Sunday and cars parking all over the street. You could fit the people in the basement (assuming it's a pretty open basement) and have some other things elsewhere in the home, but the place isn't going to be terribly accessible (my church has folks in wheelchairs).

A house would work just fine for office space and even group meeting space, provided the neighborhood/zoning isn't an issue. They'd still need a larger location for full gatherings, and even then there's other times when a dedicated chapel is needed (funerals, weddings, etc.).

But really, if they can meet their bills, what does it really matter to you if a church wants a facility? Being involved with one, I can see that it restricts activities in some ways, but it also provides a space that can be used at the whims of the congregation and a readily identifiable location for others who might be interested in joining them. There's more pluses than minuses with one, but often the churches don't fully recognize the drawbacks.

akula: Dr Dreidel: akula: Temporary locations (like schools, movie theaters) involve major compromises of their own; there just aren't many places that can suit the needs of even a relatively modest (say, 120 in attendance) church.

Bullshiat. A synagogue in my parents' community started in response to the community growing and living too far to walk (they're Jews, remember). For almost 10 years, it was housed in a modest 3-bedroom house*: a main sanctuary, a smaller one for the youth services, and two upstairs rooms for the little ones. Easily 150 people every Saturday at the main services, another 50-75 youth (plus the wee ones).

It was ungodly hot in the summer, but it worked just fine until the community had enough to build its own synagogue down the block.

*it's the one on the corner, below and left of the marker

Getting a little emotional in this with the "bullshiat" call, don't you think?

I'm not talking a Jewish synagogue. You try and run a congregation of even 50 out of a medium sized house and you're going to have no end of trouble from the neighbors complaining about noise on Sunday and cars parking all over the street. You could fit the people in the basement (assuming it's a pretty open basement) and have some other things elsewhere in the home, but the place isn't going to be terribly accessible (my church has folks in wheelchairs).

A house would work just fine for office space and even group meeting space, provided the neighborhood/zoning isn't an issue. They'd still need a larger location for full gatherings, and even then there's other times when a dedicated chapel is needed (funerals, weddings, etc.).

But really, if they can meet their bills, what does it really matter to you if a church wants a facility? Being involved with one, I can see that it restricts activities in some ways, but it also provides a space that can be used at the whims of the congregation and a readily identifiable location for others who might be interested in joining them. There's more pluses than minuses with one, but often the churches don't fully recognize the drawbacks.

Uh, did you see the map I linked? In the middle of suburbia, a congregation (bigger than the 120 you mentioned, even) used a house as a synagogue for a decade. The members owned the house (well, probably a bank did, but you get the point). Again, it was an Orthodox synagogue, so parking wasn't usually an issue, but schools (for example) are closed on Sundays, and often have parking lots. A dedicated chapel can be found anywhere (like any of the 10 other churches within 30 minutes' drive).

Face it: many denominations, if not the churches themselves, have grown accustomed to fancy living - like having enough parking, enough room, climate control - at the expense of the purpose of being there.

Maybe "bullshiat" was too strong a word to take the place of "they're just not trying hard enough". Kemp Mill is hardly a hardscrabble town, yet they went from a few score people in a house to hundreds in a huge building between 1988 and 1998.

My issue is with funding going toward renovations and not charity. I seem to remember something about "wherever people gather to speak my name is where my presence will be" - says nothing about how much stained glass must be in the windows or what size HDTV to use.

Let's talk about science finance!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
(gasp)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

/that is all

nelsonal: I've gone to chruch all my life, and I agree with the idea that we need fewer church buildings. I've never understood why every group of 50 people needs it's own building that gets used for maybe 3 hours a week. Yeah stained glass is pretty but I think God should be able to hear your prayers just as well in a school gym as in the Sistine Chapel.

If 50 people want to build a building - who cares? There is a Freemason Lodge a block from my house - outside of the occasional spaghetti dinner - I really don't know what goes on in that building. And really don't care. But at least they pay taxes.

The trouble with foreclosing on a church is the building isn't as adaptable to other uses as the typical commercial building is.

Take down the crosses, replace the stained windows, most will still look like churches.

Dr Dreidel: says nothing about how much stained glass must be in the windows or what size HDTV to use.

I kinda agree with you, especially here. Many groups have gotten in way over their heads in terms of stuff for the building. Recently a church was started near here, and the list of things they "needed" to have to kick it off included stuff my church has NEVER had. Most have forgotten that you don't need a $5000 projector and a $2000 computer to run it; many did just fine with a $300 overhead projector setup. Ultimately the church failed- seems they didn't put a big emphasis on righteousness and the thing collapsed from a few internal issues. Whoops. Missed the forest for the trees there.

But still, the building thing may be a difference in culture; Jewish groups will tend to be more location based because of Sabbath restrictions- you'll want to be within a certain distance. Meanwhile, some Christian groups may draw from larger interlocking areas- for whatever reason, there often are people who drive past several related churches to get to one specific one. It may be family reasons or whatever, but few are "community" churches like the Jewish synagogues can be.

For some smaller groups, yes, there's absolutely no reason to shackle yourself to a building that almost breaks the church financially just to have a building. Anything they could afford would just be insufficient before too long anyway, so better to make do. Personally, I probably wouldn't recommend a church start thinking permanent building until they're running at least 100 people in attendance every week with a commensurate budget (at least $150K/yr in General Funds, preferably $175-200), and even then they'll have to keep it modest.

bravian: nelsonal: I've gone to chruch all my life, and I agree with the idea that we need fewer church buildings. I've never understood why every group of 50 people needs it's own building that gets used for maybe 3 hours a week. Yeah stained glass is pretty but I think God should be able to hear your prayers just as well in a school gym as in the Sistine Chapel.

If 50 people want to build a building - who cares? There is a Freemason Lodge a block from my house - outside of the occasional spaghetti dinner - I really don't know what goes on in that building. And really don't care. But at least they pay taxes.

I'd be shocked if the Freemasons weren't a 501(c) org.

Kittypie070: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
(gasp)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

/that is all

What are you laughing at?

bravian: nelsonal: I've gone to chruch all my life, and I agree with the idea that we need fewer church buildings. I've never understood why every group of 50 people needs it's own building that gets used for maybe 3 hours a week. Yeah stained glass is pretty but I think God should be able to hear your prayers just as well in a school gym as in the Sistine Chapel.

If 50 people want to build a building - who cares? There is a Freemason Lodge a block from my house - outside of the occasional spaghetti dinner - I really don't know what goes on in that building. And really don't care. But at least they pay taxes.

One of the reasons there aren't very many anti-free masons is that they do an awful lot of public service work (children's hospitals etc). If the church collectively spent less on buildings and more on charity (food bank/hospital bills for the destitute), I suspect they would have a much better public image than they currently do. The church is coming very close to being irrelevant to the next generation, and shackling themselves to a bigger building (even if it has a coffee shop and 1080p projector in every room isn't going to bring it back to relevancy).

ptelg: crab66: Good. We need fewer churches.

Yeah, it's really horrible people find something that gives them meaning and hope, extends their lives and raises their standard of living.

This is a horrible thing, and must be stopped.

The hope is a swindle, and their personal standard of living drops in both the sense that they behave less ethically and that they have fewer resources due to involvement in the church.

Admittedly, the extension of their social lives is nice, it's always good to get neighbors to hang out and talk to each other.

//Giving you the benefit of the doubt that by 'extends their lives' you don't literally mean increase their lifespan... 'cause you don't sound retarded.

simpsonfan: The trouble with foreclosing on a church is the building isn't as adaptable to other uses as the typical commercial building is.

Take down the crosses, replace the stained windows, most will still look like churches.

The mega-church my wife goes to is often used for graduations and other ceremonies by the local schools. It is also used by the church for christian music concerts. There is also a school attached to it. I imagine if that church ever had the misfortune of going bankrupt I am positive that the buildings would would fetch a very good price.

The more traditional churches though probably would not be re-purposed as easily as the mega-churches.

I know of some muslim congregations that buy up churches.

Wookie Wookie.

I was working the phones the Collections department for a company many years ago. When the church lady on the other end told me "We'll pay you when the Lord sees fit to bless us with the money." I asked her, "Why don't you and Jesus have a bake sale?" Needless to say, I did not get to keep that job.