Except for the whole lack of light leading to a crippled energy source for the food chain thing.

netweavr: Except for the whole lack of light leading to a crippled energy source for the food chain thing.

The deep ocean on Earth is teeming with life despite being completely devoid of light. Energy comes from volcanic vents, just like Europa is thought to have.

It would be pretty cool if life was found there. The question is what would be more mind-blowing.... if the life arose independently or if it was seeded somehow from Earth?

I hope this doesn't stir up any crazy ideas.

All these worlds are yours, except Europa. Attempt no landing there.

Gone fishin'. Be back in 40 years.

I'll bring the grill.

This is extremely not news. But Europa is still awesome.

I built my toilet to dump out there. I swear, I thought those fish were dead . ....

/I wonder about that damned Alligator I flushed a couple of yrs. ago.

They should slam a probe into it and see what it stirs up. In fact, they should put a nuke on it so we can see the splash from here. It's the only way to be sure.

Gecko Gingrich: netweavr: Except for the whole lack of light leading to a crippled energy source for the food chain thing.

The deep ocean on Earth is teeming with life despite being completely devoid of light. Energy comes from volcanic vents, just like Europa is thought to have.

And is it even possible for any life form to be more bizarre than those from the deep ocean? You want to see aliens? They're already here.

netweavr: Except for the whole lack of light leading to a crippled energy source for the food chain thing.

Food chains do not require light, they require a source of energy. As mentioned above there are many food chains that have chemosynthesis at its base, not photosynthesis.

Finding what is there or not there would be a hugely important data point which helps calibrate our position in the universe. On earth, every single place we look where there is liquid water and a source of energy, there's life. Liquid water + source of energy + lots of oxygen, and there are giant heaploads of biomass. So if we go to Europa, find what should be perfect conditions, and no life, maybe it's not nearly as inevitable as we think. And if there is life, we can look up at the stars and say weeeeeell doggies, there may be lots of folks out there.

vossiewulf: netweavr: Except for the whole lack of light leading to a crippled energy source for the food chain thing.

Food chains do not require light, they require a source of energy. As mentioned above there are many food chains that have chemosynthesis at its base, not photosynthesis.

Finding what is there or not there would be a hugely important data point which helps calibrate our position in the universe. On earth, every single place we look where there is liquid water and a source of energy, there's life. Liquid water + source of energy + lots of oxygen, and there are giant heaploads of biomass. So if we go to Europa, find what should be perfect conditions, and no life, maybe it's not nearly as inevitable as we think. And if there is life, we can look up at the stars and say weeeeeell doggies, there may be lots of folks out there.

fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap

/scientist

Wanted for questioning?

So long and thanks for all the fish...

The idea that there would be fish is premature. It presupposes a whole ecoculture.The idea that there would be amoeba is hopeful.

shanrick: Gecko Gingrich: netweavr: Except for the whole lack of light leading to a crippled energy source for the food chain thing.

The deep ocean on Earth is teeming with life despite being completely devoid of light. Energy comes from volcanic vents, just like Europa is thought to have.

And is it even possible for any life form to be more bizarre than those from the deep ocean? You want to see aliens? They're already here.



Who are you calling alien muthafarker?

That amount of oxygen would be enough to support more than just microscopic life-forms: At least three million tons of fishlike creatures could theoretically live and breathe on Europa, said study author Richard Greenberg of the University of Arizona in Tucson.

"There's nothing saying there is life there now," said Greenberg, who presented his work last month at a meeting of the American Astronomical Society's Division for Planetary Sciences. "But we do know there are the physical conditions to support it."

I suppose those same physical conditions could support this guy. Alert the media!

SJKebab: Some scary-ass pic

KILL IT! KILL IT WITH FIRE!

/seriously, what the fark is that thing?

Bevets: That amount of oxygen would be enough to support more than just microscopic life-forms: At least three million tons of fishlike creatures could theoretically live and breathe on Europa, said study author Richard Greenberg of the University of Arizona in Tucson.

"There's nothing saying there is life there now," said Greenberg, who presented his work last month at a meeting of the American Astronomical Society's Division for Planetary Sciences. "But we do know there are the physical conditions to support it."

I suppose those same physical conditions could support this guy. Alert the media!

Wow, that is the most frightening Tonner doll I've ever seen. Including these. (new window)

vossiewulf: weeeeeell doggies, there may be lots of folks out there.

It'll have to go.

Sadly, it's Europa. We may attempt no landings there.

Bevets: That amount of oxygen would be enough to support more than just microscopic life-forms: At least three million tons of fishlike creatures could theoretically live and breathe on Europa, said study author Richard Greenberg of the University of Arizona in Tucson.

"There's nothing saying there is life there now," said Greenberg, who presented his work last month at a meeting of the American Astronomical Society's Division for Planetary Sciences. "But we do know there are the physical conditions to support it."

I suppose those same physical conditions could support this guy. Alert the media!

For once I gotta say: +1!

This article is full of carp.

UNC_Samurai: Sadly, it's Europa. We may attempt no landings there.

Yeah, and the creator of the universe told us not to eat a particular fruit. We all know how that turned out.

/Gods and aliens aren't much for reverse psychology.

TheOther: vossiewulf: weeeeeell doggies, there may be lots of folks out there.

It'll have to go.

PC LOAD LETTER: This article is full of carp.

Well... Echinodermata what we think, but the kind of rampant speculation such as that in the article sometimes gives me a haddock. We need to give some porpoise to our space program and just send a few probes there to shed some rays of light on this whale of a question. But I'm sure they'll just clam up when they hear the costs involved. So, our knowledge will only increase at a snail's pace, and these schools of thought will remain unchanged for some time, perhaps even ctenophore decades. :(

If I were president I'd not only land there but I'd use that big slab as pavement. That slab would be all "Hey WTF!" and I'd walk on it as I went somewhere and spit gum on it. That'd teach it a lesson.

Bevets: I suppose those same physical conditions could support this guy. Alert the media!

Evolution is the tinfoil hat that Atheists use to keep Cod out of their brainwaves?

I am disturbed by the lack of Adams in this thread.

TheOther: It'll have to go.

But can we still sing songs that would enable Paul McCartney to buy Essex?

sunbird: It would be pretty cool if life was found there. The question is what would be more mind-blowing.... if the life arose independently or if it was seeded somehow from Earth?

Or vice versa.

Abstruse: sunbird: It would be pretty cool if life was found there. The question is what would be more mind-blowing.... if the life arose independently or if it was seeded somehow from Earth?

Or vice versa.

Vice versa would be very hard to conclude, I should think. We'd have to find features common to life on Earth, but then somehow show that all other divergent features happened after arrival on Earth, meanwhile trying to unravel a few billion years of its own evolution on Europa. Very difficult task, I should think.

Personally, for me the more mind-blowing possibility is life which arose independently. How awesome would it be to have an alien example of life to look at? Would it have similar or the same biochemistry, or is the way it turned out on Earth a fixed accident? Assuming similar biochemistry, would it have the same genetic code, or was that also a fixed accident? etc. etc.

I think getting to look at another organism and perhaps answer those questions would be far more fascinating than anything else, and having something different to look at would give us a much better perspective at understanding terrestrial life. Having another example of life to look at could tell us so much (while, of course, bringing up even more questions, which is why science is so much fun :D ).

TheOther: It'll have to go.

Dammit, you looked up. I told you not to look up.

Just curious, what would happen to Bevets if life was discovered elsewhere?

jack21221: Just curious, what would happen to Bevets if life was discovered elsewhere?

He ceases to exist. He is a logical anomaly in the universe, only able to exist until we know about other life forms. His is essentially God's red herring for people.

I thought one of the big things Earth had going for it was that there was almost NO oxygen early on and lots of CO2, since oxidization is deadly to microorganisms, and that the photosynthetic animals CREATED the oxygen that the macroorganisms used, but if there were a lot of oxygen to start off with life would not have been able to arise. So wouldn't a lot of oxygen on Europa actually cause problems for life to start?

/REALLY wants to see Europan fishies

jack21221: Just curious, what would happen to Bevets if life was discovered elsewhere?

He'd have a fresh audience for his posts?

jack21221: Just curious, what would happen to Bevets if life was discovered elsewhere?

GIS for "Ichthyoid Jesus"

netweavr: Except for the whole lack of light leading to a crippled energy source for the food chain thing.

Not really, and not even for the reasons other people have mentioned. Why is light necessary for the food chain here on Earth? Because plants use light to fix carbon and in doing so release oxygen gas, which is used as an electron donor for animal respiration. But it looks like Jupiter's magnetosphere is already supplying molecular oxygen to Europa without needing plants. If you have molecular oxygen available, you don't even need to use sulfur from seafloor vents as your electron donor. You're all set for aerobic respiration right off the bat.

theorellior: which is used as an electron donor recipient for animal respiration.

FTFY. Oxygen receives the low energy electrons at the end of the electron transport chain (as well as a couple of hydrogen ions) and becomes water.

Well, I've got my towel handy

mamoru: FTFY. Oxygen receives the low energy electrons at the end of the electron transport chain (as well as a couple of hydrogen ions) and becomes water.

Whoops, sorry. IANA cell biologist, but I find the Krebs cycle and related chains fascinating.

Please, your using a rehashed Glenn Beck argument.

netweavr: Except for the whole lack of light leading to a crippled energy source for the food chain thing.

I've read before that sometimes we become too dependent on expecting life to conform to the conditions of our planet. I don't think the oxygen or light matters so much as tides. Tides seem to be the one thing that actually can help cause all that biodiversity.

Science has taught us that Europa fishes will be just like Earth fishes, but with some small ridges between their eyes.

bhcompy: netweavr: Except for the whole lack of light leading to a crippled energy source for the food chain thing.

I've read before that sometimes we become too dependent on expecting life to conform to the conditions of our planet. I don't think the oxygen or light matters so much as tides. Tides seem to be the one thing that actually can help cause all that biodiversity.

And of course that is conforming to our planet.

bhcompy: Tides seem to be the one thing that actually can help cause all that biodiversity.

They certainly helped it move to land. But Europans don't need to worry about that.

0Icky0: Science has taught us that Europa fishes will be just like Earth fishes, but with some small ridges between their eyes pointy ears and green scales.

bhcompy: Tides seem to be the one thing that actually can help cause all that biodiversity.

Well, in this case, tides are providing the energy for liquid water to exist, so that's definitely striking a blow of biodiversity.

bhcompy: I don't think the oxygen or light matters so much as tides.

It's not so much oxygen and light. What is needed for life is raw materials and energy, and a way to keep them together long enough to react. Right now, perhaps the best (or at least most comprehensive) hypothesis for the origin of life on earth is in small cell-like compartments of Iron- and Nickel-sulfur rich rock around an alkaline hydrothermal vent. You have energy due to geothermal heat, a pH gradient, and an electrical gradient; you have constant raw materials produced through geochemistry; finally you have the flow through semipermeable compartments concentrating these raw materials so they can react. It's a long slow process.

For a really in depth look, see here: On the origin of biochemistry at an alkaline hydrothermal vent - Martin and Russell, 2007

On Europa, at the water-rock interface, there may be similar conditions, which means chemoautotrophic life may have formed there. These are the kinds of conditions that get exobiologists excited. Though for now, we can really only speculate on the nature of such life and how it has evolved since formation, if it is even there. Which is why we should get something up there to find out for us.

Tides seem to be the one thing that actually can help cause all that biodiversity.

Explain.

As far as I know, what causes biodiversity is significant variation and adaptation combined with several niches to fill.

mamoru: shed

Shoulda used "shad".