Seems like some false wharrrrblllgrrrbl to me. Taxes are not normally optional.

Dalar: Seems like some false wharrrrblllgrrrbl to me. Taxes are not normally optional.

except that in this case it's a bit MORE than 'just a tax'. If I were an evil corporation, I'd absolutely love having the federal government pass a law that says 'buy my product or go to jail'.

If the constituents were McCain/Palin supporters, then they were idiots.

These are people who voted for a man who didn't know how many homes he had. A man who claimed we were all "Joe the Plumber". A man with a so-called plan to capture bin Laden, based on his military experience. a man who was in the bottom 5% of his class in the Naval Academy. A man who picked a woman who never correctly anwered the question of what the VP does as his running mate.

Idiots. No wonder bullshiat like Hot Air and NRO play to these imbeciles. They can lie because their constituents are too goddamn stupid to find the truth.

Weaver95: Dalar: Seems like some false wharrrrblllgrrrbl to me. Taxes are not normally optional.

except that in this case it's a bit MORE than 'just a tax'. If I were an evil corporation, I'd absolutely love having the federal government pass a law that says 'buy my product or go to jail'.

I think you may be radically confused about almost everything you just talked about.

It's not more than "just a tax": just like normal tax evasion, if you evade the insurance requirements, you're subject to fines and/or imprisonment. It doesn't require imprisonment; it simply provides it as an option for the judge.

What they're saying is no different than how driving requires you to have driving insurance. We don't want people to externalize the costs of their behavior onto their neighbors. If you don't have car insurance and get in an accident, then the other person (at fault or not) is stuck with the cost of your behavior. As such, we make it illegal to drive without insurance. If you don't have medical insurance and you get sick, then the cost of treating you (if you don't pay it yourself) gets carried by the hospital and whatnot. Your inability to pay carries major externalities.

RevMercutio: Idiots. No wonder bullshiat like Hot Air and NRO play to these imbeciles. They can lie because their constituents are too goddamn stupid to find the truth.

Bipartisan Joint Committe on Taxation: Page 3 (^)

Prosecution is authorized under the Code for a variety of offenses. Depending on the level of the noncompliance, the following penalties could apply to an individual:

• Section 7203 - misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.

• Section 7201 - felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years."

I can't believe what farking liars they are! Only an idiot would believe that.



mattharvest: Weaver95: Dalar:

What they're saying is no different than how driving requires you to have driving insurance. We don't want people to externalize the costs of their behavior onto their neighbors. If you don't have car insurance and get in an accident, then the other person (at fault or not) is stuck with the cost of your behavior. As such, we make it illegal to drive without insurance. If you don't have medical insurance and you get sick, then the cost of treating you (if you don't pay it yourself) gets carried by the hospital and whatnot. Your inability to pay carries major externalities.

Except in this case it isn't a requirement imposed to exercise a privilege; it's imposed for being alive. This is a small difference, I realize, but a significant one. One for which no cognizable Constitutional authority exists.

MuadDib: Except in this case it isn't a requirement imposed to exercise a privilege; it's imposed for being alive. This is a small difference, I realize, but a significant one. One for which no cognizable Constitutional authority exists.

Incorrect. It isn't imposed for living, but rather for living in the USA. That's within the General Welfare clause, not to mention Interstate Commerce clause.

MuadDib: RevMercutio: Idiots. No wonder bullshiat like Hot Air and NRO play to these imbeciles. They can lie because their constituents are too goddamn stupid to find the truth.

Bipartisan Joint Committe on Taxation: Page 3 (^)

Prosecution is authorized under the Code for a variety of offenses. Depending on the level of the noncompliance, the following penalties could apply to an individual:

• Section 7203 - misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.

• Section 7201 - felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years."



I can't believe what farking liars they are! Only an idiot would believe that.


somebody got told!

MuadDib: I can't believe what farking liars they are! Only an idiot would believe that.

i lol'd.

mattharvest: MuadDib: Except in this case it isn't a requirement imposed to exercise a privilege; it's imposed for being alive. This is a small difference, I realize, but a significant one. One for which no cognizable Constitutional authority exists.

Incorrect. It isn't imposed for living, but rather for living in the USA. That's within the General Welfare clause, not to mention Interstate Commerce clause.

why do you defend this legislation? There are better ways to go about it, and yet you defend such heavy handed thuggish tactics. why?

MuadDib: I can't believe what farking liars they are! Only an idiot would believe that.

So your claim is that Hot Air & NRO always speak the truth? Because your quote does nothing to dispute my point, it simply agrees with the headline on Fark, which I didn't argue with.

So you've not only missed my point, you appear to be defending a blog with credibility issues as being gospel.

MuadDib:
Bipartisan Joint Committe on Taxation: Page 3 (^)

Prosecution is authorized under the Code for a variety of offenses. Depending on the level of the noncompliance, the following penalties could apply to an individual:

• Section 7203 - misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.

• Section 7201 - felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years."


BTW, You do realize that you're quoting a partisan press release and treating it as God's honest truth, right?

Weaver95: why do you defend this legislation? There are better ways to go about it, and yet you defend such heavy handed thuggish tactics. why?

Perhaps mattharvest is under the misguided believe that any government "reform" will be an improvement and not screw things up even more.

Weaver95: There are better ways to go about it,

Such as?

RevMercutio: BTW, You do realize that you're quoting a partisan press release and treating it as God's honest truth, right?

I like how these press releases aren't even written by people who are familiar with how code is written.

Weaver95: why do you defend this legislation? There are better ways to go about it, and yet you defend such heavy handed thuggish tactics. why?

Dude, every country in the world that does NOT have single-payer, uses a double-mandate. Sh*t, look at Germany. They have it, and their per-capita costs are way lower than ours. Even their wait times are lower.

Weaver95: mattharvest: MuadDib: Except in this case it isn't a requirement imposed to exercise a privilege; it's imposed for being alive. This is a small difference, I realize, but a significant one. One for which no cognizable Constitutional authority exists.

Incorrect. It isn't imposed for living, but rather for living in the USA. That's within the General Welfare clause, not to mention Interstate Commerce clause.

why do you defend this legislation? There are better ways to go about it, and yet you defend such heavy handed thuggish tactics. why?

Just because I think it's a bad idea doesn't mean I think it's illegal or unconstitutional.

I think it's unwise in its current form. However, the fines and imprisonment for violating it aren't; neither are many other features.

Your assumption that I was defending the legislation as a whole is unfounded and wrong. I was defending the issue at hand in this thread, i.e. the fines and imprisonment.

It was falsely claimed it's unconstitutional; it isn't.

It was falsely claimed that this is somehow a new issue; it isn't.

This is looking to turn out very badly for people like me. I'm marginally self-employed (which means thanks to the economy, I don't make much money, nor do I receive regular paychecks, nor do I have the ability to join a group insurance plan).

I scrape up just enough money to stay afloat. I'd get a new job if there were any to be had, but for every job opening there are 1000 applicants. I can't afford the $400+ a month it would cost me to buy an individual plan for myself.

So if the government passes the individual mandate without passing the affordable public option, or somehow else making the cost of insurance affordable, I will unwillingly in violation of the law, simply because I have no money to satisfy the mandate.

Will I end up in jail? Perhaps. But it seems an awful miscarriage of justice to imprison someone for their lack of ability to pay for exorbitantly priced health insurance. Maybe I can cut a deal where the government agrees I don't have to buy insurance and I agree I will not go to a doctor unless I can pay cash. Of course then I'll end up dying from some trivial illness that could have easily been fixed, but that's the American way, apparently.

Epsilon: This is looking to turn out very badly for people like me. I'm marginally self-employed (which means thanks to the economy, I don't make much money, nor do I receive regular paychecks, nor do I have the ability to join a group insurance plan).

Wait, so a bill that helps people like you get group rates is going to turn out badly for you? You'll have to explain that.

Heh, heh. I was just imagining a scenario of me sitting in jail and talking to other inmates.
Me: "What are you in for?"
Him: "Attempted murder of my girlfriend."
Me: "And you?"
Him: "Armed robbery."
Them: "What are you in for?"
Me: "I couldn't afford to buy health insurance. I might get five years."

cameroncrazy1984: Wait, so a bill that helps people like you get group rates is going to turn out badly for you? You'll have to explain that.

I have not yet seen a bill like that pass. Many, many people are opposed to it. Talk to me when the final bill is in place and in law. I'm getting very nervous that it WON'T provide for affordable options for people like me.

Epsilon: I have not yet seen a bill like that pass.

Really? Because even the Baucus bill had an amendment to that effect. Where have you been?

Hey, guys, I heard that if this bill passes, government agents will break into your local hospital, hunt down patients in surgery, and choke the life out of the patient as soon as the anesthetic kicks in.

And then they'll blow that hospital the fark up.

cameroncrazy1984: Dude, every country in the world that does NOT have single-payer, uses a double-mandate. Sh*t, look at Germany. They have it, and their per-capita costs are way lower than ours. Even their wait times are lower.

You're fighting wharrgarbl with facts. That'll never work.

cameroncrazy1984: They have it, and their per-capita costs are way lower than ours. Even their wait times are lower.

Germany also has more doctors per capita than the US does. So as we can see lower pay keeps people away from the medical profession. Wait....

Since I mentioned it, Germany has 340 doctors per 100,000 people. The United States has 230 doctors per 100,000 people.

cameroncrazy1984: Epsilon: I have not yet seen a bill like that pass.

Really? Because even the Baucus bill had an amendment to that effect. Where have you been?

Oh, the Baucus bill passed and is now law? I was not aware of that.

Epsilon: Oh, the Baucus bill passed and is now law? I was not aware of that.

WTF are you talking about? We're talking about potential here. Nowhere did I say that it had passed. You were talking about the effects of the House bill were it to pass. I was letting you know what the contents were. Are you really that dumb?

Weaver95: Dalar: Seems like some false wharrrrblllgrrrbl to me. Taxes are not normally optional.

except that in this case it's a bit MORE than 'just a tax'. If I were an evil corporation, I'd absolutely love having the federal government pass a law that says 'buy my product or go to jail'.

Guess you best toe the line, citizen.

/laughs at young Fark Dependents who supported this crap and now have to pay.

Not only can you be fined up to $250,000, and put in jail for 5 years--but you're also charged under a felony.

Which means if you refuse to buy insurance, the government would strip away your right to vote.

Dalar: Seems like some false wharrrrblllgrrrbl to me. Taxes are not normally optional.

Please don't call this a tax. We still have to defend "95% of middle class Americans will get a tax cut."

RevMercutio: Weaver95: There are better ways to go about it,

Such as?

cchris_39: /laughs at young Fark Dependents who supported this crap and now have to pay.

Um... we knew we'd have to pay. It's the Young Objectivists who object to paying for the externalized public goods they benefit from.

GOP "BE SCARED! BE SCARED! BE SCARED! BE SCARED! BE SCARED! BE SCARED! BE SCARED!"

enoxo: Which means if you refuse to buy insurance, the government would strip away your right to vote.

Wrong. You have to refuse to buy insurance AND your taxes, which, by the way, is a felony.

Watching it on CSPAN. and YES she did say that..HOURS AGO. Now we are talking about abortion. I am on Medicare and they do not cover some forms of birth Control so....I would find it interesting to cover abortion but not birth control.. That would be kind of farked up..and it's Democrats..I am in a twilight zone I SWEAR.

real shaman: MuadDib: RevMercutio: Idiots. No wonder bullshiat like Hot Air and NRO play to these imbeciles. They can lie because their constituents are too goddamn stupid to find the truth.

Bipartisan Joint Committe on Taxation: Page 3 (^)

Prosecution is authorized under the Code for a variety of offenses. Depending on the level of the noncompliance, the following penalties could apply to an individual:

• Section 7203 - misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.

• Section 7201 - felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years."



I can't believe what farking liars they are! Only an idiot would believe that.


somebody got told!


Those are copied from IRS code and aren't directly having to do with healthcare.
He's the skinny, if you don't pay healthcare X amount of dollars is applied to your income tax. That's it, done!
If you don't pay your full income tax bill, those quotes rules apply, same as always.

cameroncrazy1984: Wrong. You have to refuse to buy insurance AND your taxes, which, by the way, is a felony.

Failure to buy insurance that costs $15,000 for a single family, results in a $25,000 penalty.

Failure to pay the $25,000 penalty results in felony charges, $250,000 fine, and 5 years in jail.

Failure to buy insurance = felony charges, and losing your right to vote.

enoxo: Failure to buy insurance that costs $15,000 for a single family, results in a $25,000 penalty.

Failure to pay the $25,000 penalty results in felony charges, $250,000 fine, and 5 years in jail.

Failure to buy insurance = felony charges, and losing your right to vote.

Yeah you have no idea what you're talking about.

Voting is a privilege, not a right.

cameroncrazy1984: enoxo: Failure to buy insurance that costs $15,000 for a single family, results in a $25,000 penalty.

Failure to pay the $25,000 penalty results in felony charges, $250,000 fine, and 5 years in jail.

Failure to buy insurance = felony charges, and losing your right to vote.

Yeah you have no idea what you're talking about.

Clearly someone hasn't read the bill. You should run for Congress!

Families who cannot afford the $15,000 won't be able to afford the tax penalty either. It compounds and snowballs and ends up with felony charges.

Mandate for health insurance is unconstitutional.

I have no idea how anyone thinks this is okay. To force someone to buy something they don;t want is unconstitutional.
Your freedoms are being ripped away here folks.

godofusa.com: Voting Not being an evangelical Christian is a privilege, not a right.

enoxo: Clearly someone hasn't read the bill. You should run for Congress!

Families who cannot afford the $15,000 won't be able to afford the tax penalty either. It compounds and snowballs and ends up with felony charges.

Mandate for health insurance is unconstitutional.

Wrong. And you act like it doesn't provide subsidies or a public option which is tied to income.

"All that stands in the way of universal health care in America are the greed of the medical-industrial complex, the lies of the right-wing propaganda machine, and the gullibility of voters who believe those lies.
Let's not let volume beat reason." (source (new window))

cameroncrazy1984: enoxo: Failure to buy insurance that costs $15,000 for a single family, results in a $25,000 penalty.

Failure to pay the $25,000 penalty results in felony charges, $250,000 fine, and 5 years in jail.

Failure to buy insurance = felony charges, and losing your right to vote.

Yeah you have no idea what you're talking about.

cameroncrazy1984 You were doing so well, up till then...

/Duke sucks

cameroncrazy1984: enoxo: Clearly someone hasn't read the bill. You should run for Congress!

Families who cannot afford the $15,000 won't be able to afford the tax penalty either. It compounds and snowballs and ends up with felony charges.

Mandate for health insurance is unconstitutional.

Wrong. And you act like it doesn't provide subsidies or a public option which is tied to income.

And what's the cut off for subsidies? 20k/year income? 30k/year income?

Middle class families cannot afford an extra $15,000 in this current economy. But they won't get subsidies.

That's just like Republicans to use the text of the bill to support their arguments.

enoxo: And what's the cut off for subsidies? 20k/year income? 30k/year income?

300% of poverty level. Jesus, are you an idiot?

Will there be death panels? I was told there would be death panels and I'm rioting if there isn't.