Who the fark cares? Do you gotta be a vegetarian to be an environmentalist? Subby is an idiot for actually siding with PETA.

TheJoe03: Who the fark cares? Do you gotta be a vegetarian to be an environmentalist? Subby is an idiot for actually siding with PETA.

This.

My approach to carnivory is that the cows are attacking and eating valuable plants. Plants which could be providing us with oxygen!
So I will keep eating cows until they are no longer a threat.
Ditto the other herbivores (rabbits, deer, chicken).

/pigs I kill just for bacon, its not personal

I'm very much an environmentalist, I support 80% CO2 cuts by 2050, and you can take my cow, pig and chicken from my cold dead hands.

/though chicken is the friendliest of those

GAT_00: I'm very much an environmentalist, I support 80% CO2 cuts by 2050, and you can take my cow, pig and chicken from my cold dead hands.

/though chicken is the friendliest of those

It's not about cutting out meat--it's just about eating less of it. Do you really need to get your Chinese food with beef? Why not get the tofu instead? Do you need a 15 oz. steak? Why not the 8 oz. one? In short: do you have to have meat with every meal?

In the words of Michael Pollen, "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants."

If subby is not a vegan, then he/she should DIAF. If he/she is a vegan, likewise.

I just thank God every day that someone has the time and energy to keep track of every move Al Gore makes. It's one of the reasons I can sleep well at night.

oldebayer: If subby is not a vegan, then he/she should DIAF. If he/she is a vegan, likewise.

I don't care if people are vegan--there are several vegan bakeries and a vegan cafe in my neighborhood that make some damn tasty food. It's when people get preachy about it that I want to stab them in the face with a steak knife.

Ditto goes for "YEAH MEAT ALL THE TIME RIBS BURGERS BBQ YEAH REAL MANLY STUFF!" sort of people. Their face will see the business end of a carrot.

Biokatt: My approach to carnivory is that the cows are attacking and eating valuable plants. Plants which could be providing us with oxygen!
So I will keep eating cows until they are no longer a threat.
Ditto the other herbivores (rabbits, deer, chicken).

/pigs I kill just for bacon, its not personal

Correct. We reduce methane production by eating these farting, but tasty, animals.

Oh for f*ck sake. The point is for all of us to try to do more to be green for the betterment of the future, not for one goddamn figurehead to be 100% green before the rest of us are forced to follow suit. Morans.

While there's not a lot of studies out on it, there is a huge environmental impact in being a vegetarian. Namely, all that soy needs to grow on a LOT of land, land that, should all Americans somehow become vegans/vegetarians, would run out very quickly. We'd have to chop down more forests, irrigate more land, using up more of our water supply.
Whereas meat/egg/milk producing animals don't use up much land, and when fed well (not with crap) do not have that huge of an impact carbon-wise compared to a vegetarian diet.

Dalar: While there's not a lot of studies out on it, there is a huge environmental impact in being a vegetarian. Namely, all that soy needs to grow on a LOT of land, land that, should all Americans somehow become vegans/vegetarians, would run out very quickly. We'd have to chop down more forests, irrigate more land, using up more of our water supply.
Whereas meat/egg/milk producing animals don't use up much land, and when fed well (not with crap) do not have that huge of an impact carbon-wise compared to a vegetarian diet.

Aside from the massive amounts of food and water they require, plus the waste, plus when they're crammed together so they don't need much land there are serious health issues that require massive amounts of antibiotics.

Other than those, yeah, eating a lot of meat is totally environmentally sound.

Mordant: I just thank God every day that someone has the time and energy to keep track of every move Al Gore makes.

Me too. (new window)

Algore is a powerless fool that no Real American takes seriously. That's why NRO has an entire web site devoted to him that they update every time he takes a dump.

Dalar: Namely, all that soy needs to grow on a LOT of land, land that, should all Americans somehow become vegans/vegetarians, would run out very quickly. We'd have to chop down more forests, irrigate more land, using up more of our water supply.

Also, you're thinking of biodiesel, not eating vegetables. Why would the entire country all of a sudden be eating soy products exclusively?

Anyone else notice the author of this crap ass submission? Yep, Glenn Beck.

The most consistent in action environmentalists are hunters, and they'll happily put a cap in your ass if you tell them to become vegetarian to help the environment.

/needs to find a new venison jerky connection

ElQue: Anyone else notice the author of this crap ass submission? Yep, Glenn Beck.

I noticed and ignored, because the whole "Al Gore isn't doing everything perfectly therefore everything he's saying is false" bullshiat is getting old.

Hender: ElQue: Anyone else notice the author of this crap ass submission? Yep, Glenn Beck.

I noticed and ignored, because the whole "Al Gore isn't doing everything perfectly therefore everything he's saying is false" bullshiat is getting old.

It's been old for a while. The right uses "Algore" as an insult, for fark's sake. They don't have an actual refutation to any of his points, so he's a bogeyman.

Too bad you only get one appendix.

Hender: Do you need a 15 oz. steak?

If you have to ask this question then you're a red-loving Communist. Of course I need a 15 oz steak. As an appetizer to get me ready for my 32 oz steak. Rare, thank you.

Doooom: Hender: Do you need a 15 oz. steak?

If you have to ask this question then you're a red-loving Communist. Of course I need a 15 oz steak. As an appetizer to get me ready for my 32 oz steak. Rare, thank you.

I figure a pinko would like their steak rare.

Hender: It's not about cutting out meat--it's just about eating less of it. Do you really need to get your Chinese food with beef? Why not get the tofu instead? Do you need a 15 oz. steak? Why not the 8 oz. one? In short: do you have to have meat with every meal?

In the words of Michael Pollen, "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants."

Y'know, it always fascinates me how people can claim that everyone is the absolute exact same, metabolically.

I've tried low-protein diets, and low-carb diets, and I do best, both health-wise and weight-wise, if my diet is about 40-50% meat protein, with the rest being low-carb greens and other veggies. Tracked this with my doctor, so I could have some actual data beyond "I feel pretty good on this".

Meat is delicious and healthy. Anyone telling you otherwise probably has an ulterior motive, like a book to sell or a pseudo-religious belief system they want to proselytize.

Hender: GAT_00: I'm very much an environmentalist, I support 80% CO2 cuts by 2050, and you can take my cow, pig and chicken from my cold dead hands.

/though chicken is the friendliest of those

It's not about cutting out meat--it's just about eating less of it. Do you really need to get your Chinese food with beef? Why not get the tofu instead? Do you need a 15 oz. steak? Why not the 8 oz. one? In short: do you have to have meat with every meal?

In the words of Michael Pollen, "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants."

Huh, I hadn't heard the definition of omnivore that states they eat more plant matter than animal.

Thorak: Hender: It's not about cutting out meat--it's just about eating less of it. Do you really need to get your Chinese food with beef? Why not get the tofu instead? Do you need a 15 oz. steak? Why not the 8 oz. one? In short: do you have to have meat with every meal?

In the words of Michael Pollen, "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants."

Y'know, it always fascinates me how people can claim that everyone is the absolute exact same, metabolically.

I've tried low-protein diets, and low-carb diets, and I do best, both health-wise and weight-wise, if my diet is about 40-50% meat protein, with the rest being low-carb greens and other veggies. Tracked this with my doctor, so I could have some actual data beyond "I feel pretty good on this".

Meat is delicious and healthy. Anyone telling you otherwise probably has an ulterior motive, like a book to sell or a pseudo-religious belief system they want to proselytize.

Anyone who tries to tell you that there's a 100% substitute for meat is either lying or wants to sell you something. You can have a completely animal-free diet, but not only are you going against millions of years of evolution but you're going to likely be taking vitamin supplements, too. If you do it for moral purposes, more power to you. I know people who commit to that, but it's not the life for me.

Meat is something humans eat and have likely eaten since man could control fire. People like Pollen mostly recommend eating less meat, not no meat at all. From a culinary standpoint, yes, meat is delicious. I enjoy many different types of meat, and having a mostly vegetarian significant other has cramped my previous lifestyle. It's forced me to adapt what I cook and eat, and you know what? I still love meat, but it's just not an every meal thing anymore. I don't feel that I need a meat dish somewhere in my meal every time I eat, and when I do, sometimes 4 oz. of pancetta in a pot of soup is enough.

From a nutritional standpoint, you just don't need very much meat at all. It tastes damn good, but really, do you want to eat the beef or chicken from that Chinese place on the corner? Do you really want to know how good that meat is and where it came from? Just get the tofu. You'll thank me later.

Disclaimer: Pollen wants to sell you books, but they're damn good.

SoothinglyDeranged: Huh, I hadn't heard the definition of omnivore that states they eat more plant matter than animal.

The very definition of omnivore has to do with variety, not quantity.

Hender: From a nutritional standpoint, you just don't need very much meat at all.

From a nutritional standpoint, I'm non-status Innu, which means I've got quite a few eons of history in a far-northern climate with incredibly limited resources that tells me that my nutrional requirements are more meat-focused than most folks. Historically, the Innu diet was something like 70% meat or meat products, especially during the winter.

I tried a low-meat low-calorie diet, and I had some issues with low energy, weight retention, etc. I tried a low-carb, high-protein, heavy meat diet, and I felt awesome, and the weight fell off without even needing to exercise, all while my cholesterol normalized, my blood sugars evened out, and every other measure my doctor could think of pretty much got to ideal status.

So yes, some of us need meat. I'm not even remotely trying to claim this is true of everyone, and most people are almost certainly better off eating less meat than they do; they come from agrarian cultures where meat was much scarcer than farm plants. But it is true for some people, and that's why I'm saying this; humanity is a broad spectrum. We aren't all the same, and one rule does not work for everyone.

Hender: From a nutritional standpoint, you just don't need very much meat at all.

I hear you, and I try, but the farking butcher got indignant when I asked for one, just one, strip of bacon.

Dalar: While there's not a lot of studies out on it, there is a huge environmental impact in being a vegetarian. Namely, all that soy needs to grow on a LOT of land, land that, should all Americans somehow become vegans/vegetarians, would run out very quickly. We'd have to chop down more forests, irrigate more land, using up more of our water supply.
Whereas meat/egg/milk producing animals don't use up much land, and when fed well (not with crap) do not have that huge of an impact carbon-wise compared to a vegetarian diet.

This is sort of what I've read too, sort of...

Raising animals does take up a lot of land, but it can be generally done where the soil is generally more suited to growing grasses than it is to vegetables and fruits. As I recall from Guns, Germs and Steel (it's been a long time since I read it though), this is pretty much what allowed humans to migrate from the equatorial areas. Of course now we can have any foodstuff shipped from anywhere, but that has it's own carbon footprint cost. It may very well be the case that it's environmentally friendlier to grow locally the small amount of meat that we actually require to get all our amino acids than to ship exotic substitutes long distances.

I don't care to do the math to figure this out definitively though, since I find meat to be quite tasty and that I've come to terms that my very existance means that animals have died to accomodate me, vegan or not. The food I eat is grown on farms that have eliminated natural habitats, to say nothing of the occasional gopher that may have their heads lopped off by farm machinery. My home and city have paved over and drained habitats as well, meaning that very little wild fauna will ever live here again. If you can accept that, then keeping cows and chickens for food is small potatos, so to speak.

Thorak: So yes, some of us need meat. I'm not even remotely trying to claim this is true of everyone, and most people are almost certainly better off eating less meat than they do; they come from agrarian cultures where meat was much scarcer than farm plants. But it is true for some people, and that's why I'm saying this; humanity is a broad spectrum. We aren't all the same, and one rule does not work for everyone.

Very true. See, I'm looking at it through the lens of an American, where my European ancestors had a completely different diet than Americans do now. Lots of veggies, some amounts of meat, and now that's reversed. Other cultures and races have completely different roots with totally different nutritional requirements.

As an aside, that's really interesting to know--I certainly don't buy into "one diet for all mankind" theory, and that's a perfect example of why "regional" diets are superior.

djkutch: Hender: From a nutritional standpoint, you just don't need very much meat at all.

I hear you, and I try, but the farking butcher got indignant when I asked for one, just one, strip of bacon.

Ask for it in ounces and in thin strips. Butchers like a challenge.

Hender: Very true. See, I'm looking at it through the lens of an American, where my European ancestors had a completely different diet than Americans do now. Lots of veggies, some amounts of meat, and now that's reversed. Other cultures and races have completely different roots with totally different nutritional requirements.

As an aside, that's really interesting to know--I certainly don't buy into "one diet for all mankind" theory, and that's a perfect example of why "regional" diets are superior.

I've got quite a bit of European in me too, hence the non-status part of it, but I definitely favor the Innu side metabolically. I tried everything else, I tried Weight Watchers, I ate tons of salad and almost no meat, a bunch of other diet systems. They all kinda worked, but I never felt very well on any of 'em. Then I tried a version of Atkins, and eating bacon and eggs and sausage and steak and pretty much whatever other meat products I felt like, and I felt better than I ever had, and I lost weight faster by sitting on my ass than I had on Weight Watchers while doing tons of exercise.

Not that I'm saying exercise is bad; I'm lazy. Exercise GOOD. I'm just using it to show how obvious the difference was to me.

Thorak: Not that I'm saying exercise is bad; I'm lazy. Exercise GOOD. I'm just using it to show how obvious the difference was to me.

You sound fat.

Raising livestock is an inefficient use of resources. The FAO of the UN did a study in 2006 you can find here (^)or read a short article about it here (^). It details the disproportionate use of land and water to raise cattle. It doesn't get into the abuse of prescriptions (^) in the cattle industry, which is another significant issue.

The less factory meat people eat the better off we all are.

ElQue: Anyone else notice the author of this crap ass submission? Yep, Glenn Beck.

I noticed that right away, actually. I also noticed that he didn't respond to accusations that Glenn Beck raped and murdered a girl in 1990.

Hender: You sound fat.

That's because I AM fat.

Though with a good diet of bacon and eggs and sausage and steak and chicken and burgers, that'll change.

The farming of crops involves massive amounts of air and water pollution, drastic water shortages, destruction of natural habitats and ecosystems, soil erosion, extensive use of pesticides to kill various pests (including animals such as rats and rabbits), diversion of waterways, and a whole host of other issues.

There's something to be said for the problems with agribusiness beyond raising livestock.

You know, I just watched "Hud". I recommend it. Modern agribusiness does not mean meat is bad. WE are suppposed to eat meat. Not every goddamned day.

Gore should have pointed out that being environmentally conscious does not mean using leaves as toilet paper and showering w/ rain water.

There are many things people can do to help, but no one person needs to go full Begley and charge their computer w/ a bike.

In fact, statements like 'a person cannot be environmentally conscious unless they give up meat and live in a cave' is detrimental to the movement.

Not that I'm really defending Gore. I hear people say Gore is a big hypocrite about a lot of the environmental schnit he preaches, but I don't know how much of it is true. I don't really like Gore's patronizing demeanor and droning self-righteousness.

/very environmentally conscious person
//don't drive
///buy used when I can, which is frequent
//urban composting setup
/doesn't buy plastic, unnecessary crap

Dammit, I hate these threads. They always make me want bacon.

/gonna go get some bacon

I don't eat anything that didn't have a face.

Cubansaltyballs: I don't eat anything that didn't have a face.

Funny, I only eat the faces of things.

Hender: SoothinglyDeranged: Huh, I hadn't heard the definition of omnivore that states they eat more plant matter than animal.

The very definition of omnivore has to do with variety, not quantity.

Uh, thank you for reiterating exactly what I was getting at?

/Missing the point, I think you're doing it.

By that logic PETA should be pro-hunter.

Hender: Aside from the massive amounts of food and water they require

Well, animal feed isn't the same as human food. Animal feed is the bottom of the barrel stuff -- generally things that wouldn't meet high enough grade standards to make it into your grocery store. So, by providing a way to turn inferior quality food into good quality meat, cattle farming can actually increase the amount of quality food that is produced, as well as providing a market for farmers who had a bad crop.

So that's why Algore ir so fat

Your not fooling us Algore!!1

Everyone knows one of the worst things for the environment is beef.

Everyone also knows that one of the most wonderful things in the world is beef.

Hence the rampant hypocrisy of anyone who considers themselves an 'environmentalist' (both of which I consider myself).

I love this planet, and I will take reasonable steps to do my part to make it a cleaner, healthier place for all living creatures.

But god do I love beef.

soze: The most consistent in action environmentalists are hunters, and they'll happily put a cap in your ass if you tell them to become vegetarian to help the environment.

/needs to find a new venison jerky connection

Where do you live? Hunting season is approaching.

Sum Dum Gai: Hender: Aside from the massive amounts of food and water they require

Well, animal feed isn't the same as human food. Animal feed is the bottom of the barrel stuff -- generally things that wouldn't meet high enough grade standards to make it into your grocery store. So, by providing a way to turn inferior quality food into good quality meat, cattle farming can actually increase the amount of quality food that is produced, as well as providing a market for farmers who had a bad crop.

If you twist that logic any more, it's gonna snap and take someone's eye out.
If you didn't have to produce animal feed, the same soil could be used to produce human feed, providing nourishment for far more people.

/likes beef, but has no illusions about the waste of soil and energy involved in producing it

I never could figure out how a cow eating grass/grain, drinking water and shiatting(which helps more plants grow) hurts the enviroment in anyway shape or form.