Amen, Hoot.

Agrees.

1988 NLCS/WS stats:

6 G, 5 GS, 3-0, 3CG, 2 SHO, 1 SV, 42.2 IP, 1.06 ERA, 32K, 13BB, 1.01 WHIP, 0 HR

And the kicker: he went 3-3, 2 2B, RBI, R in the WS

But they're getting paid in gum.

Because when you get paid more, it makes your tendons stronger.

A pitcher can pitch on that little rest. But pitching is, really honestly, damaging to a pitcher's body. Sandy Koufax wasn't kidding.

Incoming Retro Telegraph being read aloud gag just in from the Department of Beating A Tired Joke To Death...

If you (stop) have a three day refractory period (stop) maybe you should consider catching (no really, stop)

I think he's off by more than an order of magnitude. Also several inches on the mound.

bighasbeen: Agrees.

1988 NLCS/WS stats:

Hershiser was insane back in his day. I started watching baseball back when Cleveland had it's mid-90's heyday, and he sticks out in my mind.

Three days? Criminy, someone take his porn away!

GAT_00: bighasbeen: Agrees.

1988 NLCS/WS stats:

Hershiser was insane back in his day. I started watching baseball back when Cleveland had it's mid-90's heyday, and he sticks out in my mind.

His game 2 in the '88 WS was everything I ever wanted to be as a baseball player when I was a kid. CG 3-hit shutout and 3-3 batting. Did it all that game.

Obdicut: Because when you get paid more, it makes your tendons stronger.

A pitcher can pitch on that little rest. But pitching is, really honestly, damaging to a pitcher's body. Sandy Koufax wasn't kidding.

The right combination of body type and mechanics can save your arm. I hate to say anything to contradict a HOF like Gibson, but a lot of the pitches that pitchers throw today (sinker, splitter, etc) are much harder on the arm than the traditional trifecta of fastball/curve/change. Even the slider can be hell on your arm if you aren't throwing it properly.

Hershiser serves as a case in point of this: the sinker doomed his shoulder for a few years and really cut his career short.

bighasbeen: The right combination of body type and mechanics can save your arm.

Definitely-- which is what Koufax says. He tries to teach pitchers these days to notice the kinisthetics of their throw, to really understand where it's putting strain. He's not going to contradict them if they want to sacrifice their bodies, but he's trying to get them to at least think about long-term consequences.

Obdicut: bighasbeen: The right combination of body type and mechanics can save your arm.

Definitely-- which is what Koufax says. He tries to teach pitchers these days to notice the kinisthetics of their throw, to really understand where it's putting strain. He's not going to contradict them if they want to sacrifice their bodies, but he's trying to get them to at least think about long-term consequences.

I, and many others, have always said: you want to pitch for a long, long time? Watch Nolan Ryan. Copy that and hit the leg press. However, some allowance must be made for individual body types. The other thing is you don't want to mess too much with a delivery after someone is 20 or 21. Their muscles and tendons are used to throwing a certain way and if too drastic of a change is made it can lead to injury PDQ.

A week? LOL

You tell 'em, Bob.

"I ain't afraid of no Gibson"

I don't think "can't" is the problem, most managers aren't willing to take the risk of a pitcher that may not be 100%, though. Particularly if the bullpen is not up to snuff...

Not taking anything away from his performances, but Gibson has been the angry old man of baseball for quite a long time, and there is also that apples and oranges thing.

DNRTFA however I will say that the Phillies lost this series when Cliff Lee was held out of Game 4. As a Yankee fan, it pleased me. As a sports fan, I was very confused that Lee didn't act like a competitor and at least talk a big game about how he wanted to but the manager wouldn't let him.

Something I don't understand, maybe someone can shed some light on this: Why are the majors using 4+ pitchers a game? I understand the concept of a closer, but to have some guy come in to pitch 2 outs in the 6th inning is a little absurd to me. Do these guys need to be coddled that much?

I don't understand. Why would Andy pettite say that about himself after pitching on 3 days rest?

/dnrtfa
//is it still a troll if I admit it?

God I love Bob Gibson.

NYCNative: DNRTFA however I will say that the Phillies lost this series when Cliff Lee was held out of Game 4. As a Yankee fan, it pleased me. As a sports fan, I was very confused that Lee didn't act like a competitor and at least talk a big game about how he wanted to but the manager wouldn't let him.

This.

/It's thw WS forG-d's sake!
//And he's your best pitcher.

Comic Book Guy: Something I don't understand, maybe someone can shed some light on this: Why are the majors using 4+ pitchers a game? I understand the concept of a closer, but to have some guy come in to pitch 2 outs in the 6th inning is a little absurd to me. Do these guys need to be coddled that much?

Not a matter of being coddled too much. Baseball is a game of percentages. If you know that bringing in a lefty for two batters will increase your odds by 10% of getting through those two batters without allowing a run, why wouldn't you?

Comic Book Guy: I understand the concept of a closer, but to have some guy come in to pitch 2 outs in the 6th inning is a little absurd to me. Do these guys need to be coddled that much?

As said before, it's not a coddling thing. Not every starter has enough stuff or guile to show batters a different look every time. If a batter sees Pettitte twice, then Joba or Marte, then Rivera...that's a lot for a batter to get their heads around.

TFA: Johnny Damon's two steals at once for the Yankees on Sunday night was nothing compared to what the Cardinals' Vince Coleman and Willie McGee pulled off in the first inning Aug. 1, 1985, at Wrigley Field.

With Coleman at second and McGee at first, the two lit out on a double steal with Scott Sanderson pitching. Coleman beat catcher Jody Davis' throw to third but overslid the bag after touching it. Since third baseman Ron Cey had the ball in his hand, Coleman decided going back to third had no virtue and set sail for home.

A rundown ensued, with McGee trailing the play. Sanderson and Davis ultimately got themselves out of position and Cey, nicknamed the Penguin, ended up futilely chasing Coleman to a now unoccupied home plate. McGee wound up at third.

"I knew I couldn't get back to the bag," Coleman said then. "I was still in no-man's land. So my reaction was to go to the next base."

After conferring by phone with Seymour Siwoff of the Elias Sports Bureau, official scorer Randy Minkoff awarded each runner two steals.


I greatly approve the St. Louis reporter's doing the legwork needed to work in an amusing anecdote at the expense of the Cubs.

Making $8m a week is part of the reason their arms are protected so much...which, I guess, is kinda odd because they are limited in innings all through HS, college, minors, early in their career to a point that they sometimes never develop proper arm strength (see Joba-rules)

Off topic...

Why does A-Rod introduce himself as being from Dominican Republic? I thought he was born and raised in NY.

bighasbeen: a lot of the pitches that pitchers throw today (sinker, splitter, etc) are much harder on the arm than the traditional trifecta of fastball/curve/change. Even the slider can be hell on your arm if you aren't throwing it properly.

A few words go a long, long way. And these speak volumes about major league pitching.

The problem today is that pitchers, whether it's by the pitching coach's insistence or their own arrogance, think they can throw any pitch any time. They don't stop to realize that they shouldn't be throwing a pitch they don't throw properly, or effectively. They all think throwing it more will improve it. Master the big three, master mixing them up, and THEN worry about splitters, sliders, and whatever else you have out there.

I'm sure that it sounds all impressive to throw thirteen bazillion pitches and all, but if it leads to you being the worst 18-3 pitcher of all time and injured for half of the next season, then what point does it realistically prove?

\why yes, I do think he's turned out to be a bad investment, why do you ask?

JohnnyCanuck: Off topic...

Why does A-Rod introduce himself as being from Dominican Republic? I thought he was born and raised in NY.

Let me search wikipedia for you...

born in NY but moved when he was 4 years old.

bighasbeen: GAT_00: bighasbeen: Agrees.

1988 NLCS/WS stats:

Hershiser was insane back in his day. I started watching baseball back when Cleveland had it's mid-90's heyday, and he sticks out in my mind.

His game 2 in the '88 WS was everything I ever wanted to be as a baseball player when I was a kid. CG 3-hit shutout and 3-3 batting. Did it all that game.

Obdicut: Because when you get paid more, it makes your tendons stronger.

A pitcher can pitch on that little rest. But pitching is, really honestly, damaging to a pitcher's body. Sandy Koufax wasn't kidding.

The right combination of body type and mechanics can save your arm. I hate to say anything to contradict a HOF like Gibson, but a lot of the pitches that pitchers throw today (sinker, splitter, etc) are much harder on the arm than the traditional trifecta of fastball/curve/change. Even the slider can be hell on your arm if you aren't throwing it properly.

Hershiser serves as a case in point of this: the sinker doomed his shoulder for a few years and really cut his career short.

I think there's also something to the overall change in windups, which drives me nuts. Coaches have been tinkering with pitchers' deliveries to cut down the time it takes to throw the ball in order to prevent stolen bases.

It has resulted in stealing bases becoming less of a thing than it used to be, but it also means pitchers are throwing less with their legs and more with their arms.

I'm still convinced that this is one of the things that killed Rich Hill's career with the Cubs. He was doing very well as a starter - he had a decent fastball and a curve ball that was just unfair to the hitters. He was winning games regularly, and just looked like a guy that figured out how to pitch in the majors.

However, he would give up steals more than other pitchers because of his long delivery. So, the Cubs decide to adjust his pitching motion, and all of a sudden he can't find the strike zone. No one really reported a correlation between the two, but I'm convinced that taking him out of the mechanics he was comfortable with is what started it all.

Babwa Wawa: JohnnyCanuck: Off topic...

Why does A-Rod introduce himself as being from Dominican Republic? I thought he was born and raised in NY.

Let me search wikipedia for you...

born in NY but moved when he was 4 years old.

Thanks for the effort. You still have the page open...I thought he also played HS Baseball in NY. What's up with that?

Now go find out why he moved in the 1st place?

...and make me a sammich.

Thx...ur the best.

JohnnyCanuck: Thanks for the effort. You still have the page open...I thought he also played HS Baseball in NY. What's up with that?

Unless there's a new Miami borough in NY, I don't think so.

JohnnyCanuck: Now go find out why he moved in the 1st place?

I would imagine that as a four year old, he moved wherever his parents told him to.

JohnnyCanuck: ...and make me a sammich.

Pastrami? Roast beef?

Babwa Wawa: JohnnyCanuck: Thanks for the effort. You still have the page open...I thought he also played HS Baseball in NY. What's up with that?

Unless there's a new Miami borough in NY, I don't think so.

JohnnyCanuck: Now go find out why he moved in the 1st place?

I would imagine that as a four year old, he moved wherever his parents told him to.

JohnnyCanuck: ...and make me a sammich.

Pastrami? Roast beef?

Can I have one of each? Mustard plz.

Thanks man...g'job.

\seriously...I appreciate the effort.

Pettite was amazing... what a superstar.

hmm, the article didn't have any comments from Whitey Ford.

/subby needs to learn his history

Vito Andolini: hmm, the article didn't have any comments from Whitey Ford.

/subby needs to learn his history

Hmm, somebody doesn't remember 1964. And Gibby's .778 career WS win percentage is significantly higher than Ford's .556.

/check your own history
//Gibby has a lower ERA, WHIP, better K/BB ratio, and more complete games than Ford, too.

I wonder if Bob Gibson would have lasted into the late innings of all of those games had he been facing the 'roided up sluggers of today's game.

Just sayin'.

How do you build arm strength? By throwing the baseball. Go back to 4-man rotations and quit whining about your precious glass arms.

It doesn't make any sense. During each game, managers are concerned about pitch counts. But near the end of the season, they're suddenly concerned about innings pitched. Pitch counts ≠ Innings pitched.

phyrkrakr: //Gibby has a lower ERA, WHIP, better K/BB ratio, and more complete games than Ford, too.

and 13 fewer starts.
and 4 fewer rings

/eh, you have good points, though. He was dominant.

JohnnyCanuck: Babwa Wawa: JohnnyCanuck: Thanks for the effort. You still have the page open...I thought he also played HS Baseball in NY. What's up with that?

Unless there's a new Miami borough in NY, I don't think so.

JohnnyCanuck: Now go find out why he moved in the 1st place?

I would imagine that as a four year old, he moved wherever his parents told him to.

JohnnyCanuck: ...and make me a sammich.

Pastrami? Roast beef?

Can I have one of each? Mustard plz.

Thanks man...g'job.

\seriously...I appreciate the effort.

Although Alex was born in NY and his family moved to the DR, by the time he was 8 years old he had moved to Miami and has remained there since.
Do I get a sammich?

1. The huge paychecks are exactly why they DON'T pitch on short rest. It is called protecting your investment.

2. I am so sick of old ball players and their "Got off of my lawn" statements. Why do you have to be so bitter? Times are different and you had your time in the spotlight.

If pitchers pitched more - not less - they would have better arm strength. That's how the pitchers back when the world was in black and white were able to pitch 12-15 innings a game every 3 days.

Rosenthal's question to Posada immediately after the game-

"How was Pettite (gasp!) able to come back and pitch on (gasp!) just three days rest?"

This is why old-timers bring their "get off my lawn" stuff. It's because the stupid media makes such a big deal about it. On Tuesday's BBTN I watched for about 5 minutes and heard the phrase "3 days rest" at least six times, and had to change it.

It's not some super-human feat; it doesn't defy logic; it doesn't require explanation on "how is it possible???". Shoulder and elbow soreness should definitely be gone by that third day, so on the 4th day, we're really only talking about fatigue setting in a bit earlier than it would ordinarily. BFD.

There's two sides to this story, really. For every Gibby, who was a bona fide beast who could pitch 250-300 innings a year, you had a dozen guys like Bouton, who won 20 his rookie year and never pitched without pain again. And you could get away with using up a guy like Bouton and tossing him back on the heap because you weren't paying your pitchers anything and there were plenty more arms where his came from.

Prior to the expansion-happy 60s, there were only 16 teams in the league, or roughly half the amount of spots there are today. Also, the talent pool for baseball was dramatically higher than it is currently, as most kids back then would rather play for the New York Yankees than for the Dallas Cowboys. Probably the reverse is true today.

So, a guy like Gibby will make those "get off my lawn" statements because he doesn't realize that the majority of pitchers he's seeing today probably wouldn't have lasted more than three seasons, only one of them good, if they'd tried to pitch like him. But by being smart, advances in surgery, and protective pitching methods like pitch counts, even a Mark Prior who has hopelessly bad mechanics can at least squeeze out a five year career.

So, it's not "pitchers back then were tougher", it's that "pitchers back then were expendable". Now, with more teams, more money, and more competition (coughroidscough), ANY pitcher has to be protected, even if they could pitch like Gibby.

Stop posting spam threads!

I understand the whole thing about protecting the big investment, but what's so bad about working a little harder during the biggest series of your life when you have the entire off-season to rest? I seriously doubt any careers will be ended because a guy starts one or two games on short rest. If managers did it all regular season, then that would be another thing entirely, but a couple of starts is not that big of a deal.

I agree Charlie should have pitched Lee on Sunday. Everybody knew the Phillies would lose the series if they didn't win that game.

Came here for Orel. Leaving satisfied.

/giggity?

1lastcall: JohnnyCanuck: Babwa Wawa: JohnnyCanuck: Thanks for the effort. You still have the page open...I thought he also played HS Baseball in NY. What's up with that?

Unless there's a new Miami borough in NY, I don't think so.

JohnnyCanuck: Now go find out why he moved in the 1st place?

I would imagine that as a four year old, he moved wherever his parents told him to.

JohnnyCanuck: ...and make me a sammich.

Pastrami? Roast beef?

Can I have one of each? Mustard plz.

Thanks man...g'job.

\seriously...I appreciate the effort.

Although Alex was born in NY and his family moved to the DR, by the time he was 8 years old he had moved to Miami and has remained there since.
Do I get a sammich?

OK...so back to my original question. If he only spent 4 years (very young years at that) in the DR, why does he consider himself from there? Not that it matters..I am just curious.

\you can have the pastrami

bighasbeen: Hershiser serves as a case in point of this: the sinker doomed his shoulder for a few years and really cut his career short.

You do realize that a sinker is essentially a 2-seam fastball, right?

NU41: bighasbeen: Hershiser serves as a case in point of this: the sinker doomed his shoulder for a few years and really cut his career short.

You do realize that a sinker is essentially a 2-seam fastball, right?

But they just tie alittle wait on it?

Bob Gibson was so intimidating back in the day, he'd throw at your head while you were on the ondeck circle, then beat you over the head with the carcasses of the first base and umpires.