I think I'm going to have to wake up early Saturday and watch all 13 episodes of Cosmos.

What Skinny Puppy song was it that had the sample over and over again of the guy saying "...as it really is!"

This must be Carl Sagan. Yet another successful cannabis consumer.

Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World really did change my entire worldview. I'd recommend it to anyone.

Step one: Grasp the universe as it really is...

susansto-helit: Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World really did change my entire worldview. I'd recommend it to anyone.

Absolutely! One of the best books of the past 20 years, IMO.

susansto-helit: Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World really did change my entire worldview. I'd recommend it to anyone.

Finishing it right now. Awesome.

I'm just posting so I can say I was here before the thread went nuclear.

My most favorite Valentine evar:

TFA: There are entire channels on the cable highway dedicated to science, not to mention what's available on the internet.

If he counts documentaries about Nazi UFOs and shows about "ghost researchers," then, yes, there are whole channels dedicated to science.

jekxrb: "Who is more humble? The scientist who looks at the universe with an open mind and accepts whatever the universe has to teach us, or somebody who says everything in this book must be considered the literal truth and never mind the fallibility of all the human beings involved?"

"The major religions on the Earth contradict each other left and right. You can't all be correct. And what if all of you are wrong? It's a possibility, you know. You must care about the truth, right? Well, the way to winnow through all the differing contentions is to be skeptical. I'm not any more skeptical about your religious beliefs than I am about every new scientific idea I hear about. But in my line of work, they're called hypotheses, not inspiration and not revelation."

"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion."

"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism."

"Humans - who enslave, castrate, experiment on, and fillet other animals - have had an understandable penchant for pretending animals do not feel pain. A sharp distinction between humans and 'animals' is essential if we are to bend them to our will, make them work for us, wear them, eat them - without any disquieting tinges of guilt or regret. It is unseemly of us, who often behave so unfeelingly toward other animals, to contend that only humans can suffer. The behavior of other animals renders such pretensions specious. They are just too much like us."

--all Carl Sagan

He sounds like he thinks he's all superior and stuff. I loved Cosmos, but he never struck me as a very humble man.

jekxrb: snip

Why the random PETAGARBL at the end?

Howie Spankowitz: susansto-helit: Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World really did change my entire worldview. I'd recommend it to anyone.

Finishing it right now. Awesome.

It was alright, and I especially loved the "Baloney Detection Kit" chapter. But, I can't say it really changed my world view. That could be because I'd generally reached that level of skepticism by the time I'd read it, so it was mostly a collection of more examples of why I should consider being the way I already was.

I much prefer "Pale Blue Dot". The little bit in the first chapter, which is similar to the graduation speech he gave, still brings tears to my eyes.

But, yeah, I really admired Carl Sagan. He had such a talent for taking some rather difficult science and putting it in very human terms that anyone can understand, should they choose to.

Hugo Weaving as Carl Sagan.

What would that be?

The. Best. Performance. Ever.

You know it.

"Billions and billions of stars... Missshhhter Anderssshhhon..."

It's a good thing that time and space are only existential constructs erected by our meat, or I'd have to come to a dreadful end at some point.

jekxrb: --all Carl Sagan

"I do not know what I may appear to the world, but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the sea-shore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

- Sir Isaac Newton

/pretty much how I feel as a physicist. So far, I've only solved little problems. Fortunately, I take great joy in that... cheers

"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

That's nice and all, except for the fact that everyone believes that their view of the universe is the way it really is.

The image above was taken at the request of Sagan by the Voyager 1 science team as the robot was passing the 3.7 Billion miles-from-home-marker. Yes, that's us on that little dot at the center right of the image.

Shopped.

I'll just leave these in here.

Pale Blue Dot (new window)



"We succeeded in taking that picture [from deep space], and, if you look at it, you see a dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever lived, lived out their lives. The aggregate of all our joys and sufferings, thousands of confident religions, ideologies and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilizations, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every hopeful child, every mother and father, every inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every superstar, every supreme leader, every saint and sinner in the history of our species, lived there on a mote of dust, suspended in a sunbeam.

The earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that in glory and in triumph they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of the dot on scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner of the dot. How frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity -- in all this vastness -- there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. It is up to us. It's been said that astronomy is a humbling, and I might add, a character-building experience. To my mind, there is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly and compassionately with one another and to preserve and cherish that pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known."

--Carl Sagan

yogaFLAME: Why the random PETAGARBL at the end?

I liked it. I don't think it's as extreme as PETA; he is simply reminding us that we, too, are animals and that we should watch our behaviour toward other animals with whom we share the planet. I think it is a good idea to treat other animals with some respect and ensure that they don't suffer; I think it is possible to do that and still eat meat, tbh. The idea that 'it's just an animal' is very common among humans, but we are all living, breathing creatures who can suffer. It shouldn't be a case of 'us' and 'them', but a recognition that we are all animals and we all have a responsibility to act toward others as best we can.

His point, I believe, is more about reminding us that we are nothing more than cruel, little animals who think we are special, superior beings.

muck4doo: He sounds like he thinks he's all superior and stuff.

He's a brilliant man, but nothing about what I've quoted there is particularly 'superior'. However, you've very neatly pinpointed what is a major problem with today's society; if you sound intelligent, then you are condemned as 'elite' and 'superior'. It's almost unacceptable to be intelligent, because to say anything intelligent is to be shunned. Meanwhile it's the height of admirability to be able to throw a ball. Idiocracy is going to end up being incredibly prophetic, I suspect...

wjllope: "I do not know what I may appear to the world, but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the sea-shore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

- Sir Isaac Newton

That's really lovely. And very well said. :-)

I like these of Sagan's, too:

"The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true. We have a method, and that method helps us to reach not absolute truth, only asymptotic approaches to the truth - never there, just closer and closer, always finding vast new oceans of undiscovered possibilities. Cleverly designed experiments are the key."

"The size and age of the Cosmos are beyond ordinary human understanding. Lost somewhere between immensity and eternity is our tiny planetary home. In a cosmic perspective, most human concerns seem insignificant, even petty. And yet our species is young and curious and brave and shows much promise. In the last few millennia we have made the most astonishing and unexpected discoveries about the Cosmos and our place within it, explorations that are exhilarating to consider. They remind us that humans have evolved to wonder, that understanding is a joy, that knowledge is prerequisite to survival. I believe our future depends on how well we know this Cosmos in which we float like a mote of dust in the morning sky."

"If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers."

Can you have a first annual event? How about calling it the inaugural event instead.


Either way, Sagan rulz. The picture of the 'pale blue dot' changed my life.

Thread has remained strangely....balanced....

Puzzling....

Obligatory listening (new window) for reading a Sagan thread.

jekxrb: His point, I believe, is more about reminding us that we are nothing more than cruel, little animals who think we are special, superior beings.

Yep, I agree with the sentiment of your interpretation. I don't like his version though: a corrolary of "we are not special" is "animals are therefore certainly not special." Now, I am not a cruel person, and I love animals; I'd be a veterinarian if it weren't so damn hard to become one.

But. People of many religious and moral backgrounds can at least agree to believe in the food chain. Failure to recognize our superiority to the rest of the animals - in at least that capacity - is as every bit as kooky as religious zealotry that Sagan warns against.

"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."


THIS is why I use psychedelic drugs on a regular basis.

Cthia.

squirrelinator: Thread has remained strangely....balanced....

Puzzling....

It's because everyone realizes that even if they disagree with Sagan, he was a sincere man who wanted what was best for humanity. I'm sure that the religious denizens of Fark are willing to overlook his skeptical stance on their most beloved traditions in order to honor the memory of a man whose main goal was simply to help people understand the world a little better. And, of course, no skeptical person, no matter how crass, would try to use such an uplifting event as Carl Sagan Day to bait people into a pointless shouting match.

Obviously, a new day has dawned on Fark.

squirrelinator: Thread has remained strangely....balanced....

Puzzling....

Sagan doesn't provoke the kind of responses that the Dawkins and Hitchens of the world do. His approach is gentle and respectful, and doesn't raise hackles. I'm not putting those guys down, mind you - but Sagan's brand of friendly persuasion is more consumer-friendly.

Son of Thunder: "That's nice and all, except for the fact that everyone believes that their view of the universe is the way it really is."

That's what we have science for. While science may not yet be able to explain everything, non-science has never explained anything. It isn't perfect but it works, and one whose understanding of reality is built upon scientific knowledge will be closer to 'grasping the universe as it really is" than one whose understanding of the universe is based on pre-science religious proclamations. As beautiful and interesting as religion can be, it isn't a methodology, and thus not a way of knowing.

Martian_Astronomer: It's because everyone realizes that even if they disagree with Sagan, he was a sincere man who wanted what was best for humanity. I'm sure that the religious denizens of Fark are willing to overlook his skeptical stance on their most beloved traditions in order to honor the memory of a man whose main goal was simply to help people understand the world a little better.

And yet we lack the "he called religion a mental illness!" butthurt that is perpetrated in threads that reference Richard Dawkins.

Marcus Aurelius: It's a good thing that time and space are only existential constructs erected by our meat, or I'd have to come to a dreadful end at some point.
I've probably read that story a dozen times. Had no idea someone made it into a short film (and with the guy from cash cab?). Thanks!

...and when the universe does not meet our expectations, we just start making shiat up so the math works.


/We'll never know the universe as it really is.
/yay, science...

Bloom County... a comic shot in the arm, Aboleth.

Ya done good. Ya done real good.

FloydA: susansto-helit: Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World really did change my entire worldview. I'd recommend it to anyone.

Absolutely! One of the best books of the past 20 years, IMO.

I tried reading it this past summer, but didn't get too far. I got distracted by children, work, and life in general. Now that it is winter, I should go check it out from the library.

//Subby

way south: "...and when the universe does not meet our expectations, we just start making shiat up so the math works.

/We'll never know the universe as it really is.
/yay, science..."

It's true, we'll never have a 100% accurate understanding of the universe. That doesn't mean we can't have any understanding at all. But then you must know that, you're using a computer.

As incomplete as the scientific understanding of reality is, it's the only game in town. Religious worldviews aren't serious alternatives, as they rest on much shakier foundations.

been recording cosmos from the SCI channel -- they still are significant. Last night's was "Mars" and even though there had only been information from viking 1 and 2, it was still a good show.

I'm going to have to either go off on a Bhuddist retreat or punch myself repeatedly in the head. One of the two.

Dammit, there is so much going on and you MISSED IT!

When I was in the fifth grade my teacher (the first male teacher I had in school)saw my library book, which was on astronomy and asked me about it because it was written by Carl Sagan. He had some issues with Sagan. Not so much with his astronomy work, but on his stance on evolution.

Now, my teacher never said that it went against his religious beliefs, never said that evolution couldn't be because it wasn't in the Bible. He said that he chose not to believe in evolution because it meant that humanity and he wasn't meant to be, just an accident and he felt much better with the idea that his existence was part of some sort of plan, not a biological solution to environmental conditions.

Sadly his heir apparent is the spastic, juvenile, Neil Degrasse Tyson.

One Thirty-two and Bush: Sadly his heir apparent is the spastic, juvenile, Neil Degrasse Tyson.

I like Tyson, but Tyson is more Bill Nye than he is Sagan. But the world can never have enough popularizers of science. Science is one of the more challenging tasks humans have undertaken, and it requires a great deal of discipline and humility to actually do, combined with the imagination and speculative mind to make it worthwhile.

It's hard. Anyone that is passionate about it and can instill that passion in others is an incredibly precious resource.

One Thirty-two and Bush: Sadly his heir apparent is the spastic, juvenile, Neil Degrasse Tyson.

How dare you besmirch this man. On the Geek tab no less.

Actually, I agree.

While I think the blue dot pic is awesome it doesn't make me feel nearly as inconsequential as does the Eagle Nebula or the Hubble Deep field. In fact, I get pretty proud thinking we were able to put the camera that far out.

One of the most truly monstrous things that I've ever heard was for people to claim that being a geek somehow subtracted from one's love of the universe...

Ohhhh, you do not understand how it works at all, do you?!?!

Mostly this was heard from people who spent a lot on art degrees, but still... How could you not be in love with the world and still NOT be a geek?

When you're a nerd, sometimes the world is so beautiful that it HURTS.

I wouldn't mind having Carl Sagan's very stoned, well set up viewpoint.

One could do worse.

I haven't smoked dope in decades, but if it were with Carl Sagan... mmm... Maybe.

muck4doo: He sounds like he thinks he's all superior and stuff. I loved Cosmos, but he never struck me as a very humble man.

I can't speak for his humility one way or the other, but the quote you gave is not indicative of his ego because he's not talking about himself. It's a fierce defense of scientists who, while not perfect, admit they are wrong in the face of proof they are wrong.

Every single prediction spouted by religious fanatics has turned out to be laughably false. Every prophet exposed as a fraud, every vindication shown to be incidental ("a broken clock is right twice a day") or hedged (make two contradictory predictions and one is likely to become true). On the flip side, when Edmund Halley unlocked the mysteries of the comet that was named after him, he predicted it would return in 1759. He died in 1742. So when his prediction came true well after his death, people freaked.

Taking it one step further, physicists literally re-wrote the laws of physics after centuries of dominance by Newton in a span of a few years. We can now predict, with great precision, where Mercury will be centuries from now.

Show me any predictions made by any religious figure in the last 300 years that came true to this level of precision. When NASA launched the New Horizons project in 2006, they knew it would reach Pluto in 2015, meaning they had to predict Pluto's exact location nine years from now. So far New Horizons is on target, and it's sure as hell not because they got their orbital calculations from the farkin' Pope.

FTFA: If you are in the Davie, Florida area this weekend (Davie is just north of Miami)

I went to high school in Davie, Florida, so I am getting a kick out of this thread.



muck4doo: He sounds like he thinks he's all superior and stuff.

So, he talks like a fag and his shiat is all retarded? Thanks for your helpful input.

One Thirty-two and Bush: Sadly his heir apparent is the spastic, juvenile, Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Gawd I can't stand him. He insists upon himself.

jack21221: I'll just leave these in here.


Here is a link to the original video (new window)

I love Sagan... his "wouldn't want to harsh your mellow" stoner attitude and discussion style is incredible. It makes very complex topics surprisingly accessible to the layman.

It's going to be a loooooong time before any science show exceeds (or even compares to) the standard that James Burke set, though. So much knowledge, in such a dense package.