Show of hands for non-Browns fans who even knew they had a GM.

Very smart move for a very desperate organization. I dont like seeing teams in the bottom of the league for too long, and im hoping this is a move in the right direction for this team. They need to strip down the team and rebuild. Start by getting some goddamn draft picks for Josh cribbs you fools!

They can't do any worse.

vinnydoz007: Start by getting some goddamn draft picks for Josh cribbs you fools!

Um. No.

We have draft picks, We need talent and heart, which he has.

Unfortunately for the Browns, they're in a division with the Ravens and Steelers (and this year the Bengals are starting well too).

Steelers won both superbowls almost exclusively because they beat up the rest of their division to a pulp to even get to the playoffs.

Browns can't rely on that.

Gonna be a tough few upcoming years for Cleveland. Nothing like starting over with a new GM/coach...and then starting over again with a new GM and (presumably) coach the very next year.

Their starting RB is old and busted, their franchise QB looks to be a bust, their franchise WR is with the Jets now, the D is giving up 409 yards a game. Did I miss anything? About the only piece they seem to have is the possibility of building the line around Joe Thomas for the next 10 years.

Wonder if they can get MartyBall back in to save them?

The problem is and always will be Mangini.

So the idea is we get an ACTUAL GM instead of "some guy that will listen to Eric Mangini". That's a good idea. Maybe now we won't make stupid trades for a bunch of castoffs from the Jets. A #6 overall pick and Braylon "Stonehands" Edwards would certainly be better than the dearth of talent currently on the team.

/Alex Mack is okay, I guess
//Massaquoi is Braylon 2.0

TurnerBrown
vinnydoz007: Start by getting some goddamn draft picks for Josh cribbs you fools!

Um. No.

We have draft picks, We need talent and heart, which he has.

I took it to mean 'get some picks to compliment Cribbs.' The Browns main problem is that they have no stars,.. no playmakers aside from Cribbs. When they went 10-6 a couple years ago, we had Winslow, Edwards, Jurevicious, a younger Jamal...

Each new coach always comes in and trades away the last coach's star player, thus, the Browns still have the talent of an expansion team. Look at the Saints or Viking. They are chock-full of name stars. Browns have to make good picks and hold onto them to build something.

So, you're saying there's a job opening in Cleveland?

/ Prepares resume

Bernie Kosar and tanker full of bourbon are going to bring Cleveland back to greatness.

So, how long before the Browns have to deny that Mangini was escorted from team headquarters?

TurnerBrown: We need talent and heart, which he has.



Agrees.

When I see Mangini's name, I always read it as Mangina.

JC

karmaceutical: Bernie Kosar and tanker full of bourbon are going to bring Cleveland back to greatness.

I can get behind this. A drunker Kosar at the helm, properly supplied with excess liquor, will make things at least interesting. And might just be the kick we need.

InferiousX: Show of hands for non-Browns fans who even knew they had a GM.

You were thinking of the other Ohio team that doesn't believe in GMs, or scouting.

vinnydoz007: Very smart move for a very desperate organization. I dont like seeing teams in the bottom of the league for too long, and im hoping this is a move in the right direction for this team. They need to strip down the team and rebuild. Start by getting some goddamn draft picks for Josh cribbs you fools!

They just hired him during this offseason. You have to give rebuilding a little longer than half a season. Particularly when you are the Browns.

Hardy-r-r: The problem is and always will be Mangini.

Didn't know he has coached them since '99.

The Dreaded Rear Admiral: karmaceutical: Bernie Kosar and tanker full of bourbon are going to bring Cleveland back to greatness.

I can get behind this. A drunker Kosar at the helm, properly supplied with excess liquor, will make things at least interesting. And might just be the kick we need.

Actually, he sounds drunk because of all the hits he took as QB. Excellent arm, great eye for reading defenses. Feet made of concrete.

If we can build a team that can beat the Squeelers, then we can beat anyone. BERNIE for TEAM PRESIDENT!!

By the way, thought I should mention... Derek Anderson's QB rating is so bad it ranks _34th_ in the league.

/Still can't figure out what 2 teams have 2QBs in there that qualify.

jake3988: By the way, thought I should mention... Derek Anderson's QB rating is so bad it ranks _34th_ in the league.

/Still can't figure out what 2 teams have 2QBs in there that qualify.

Backups for Seattle and Tampa Bay.

/When the TB backup is better than your starter...ouch.

jayhawk88: Their starting RB is old and busted, their franchise QB looks to be a bust, their franchise WR is with the Jets now, the D is giving up 409 yards a game. Did I miss anything? About the only piece they seem to have is the possibility of building the line around Joe Thomas for the next 10 years.

You can't really call Quinn a bust when he's been courageously sitting on the bench since he was drafted for the sole reason that Cleveland doesn't want to pay him.

And not every QB can be Matt Ryan. Some players take some time to develop.

Lost Thought 00: vinnydoz007: Very smart move for a very desperate organization. I dont like seeing teams in the bottom of the league for too long, and im hoping this is a move in the right direction for this team. They need to strip down the team and rebuild. Start by getting some goddamn draft picks for Josh cribbs you fools!

They just hired him during this offseason. You have to give rebuilding a little longer than half a season. Particularly when you are the Browns.

simply put. This team needs to be rebuilt. The idea i have for trading cribbs is basically, as dynamic a player as he is, you cant build a team around a kick returner. Although hes developing into an offensive weapon, I think his value in trade is worth more to the organization than anything else. I believe theyve given up on their QB's. DA is god awful and Brady quinn has shown flashes, but doesnt seem to be improving. He seems to make the same mistakes over and over. I think this team needs to stock pile draft picks and get young talent on that team. Its going to be a long rebuilding process. My guess is the GM didnt see it this way. And thats why he was sacked.

Jubeebee: jayhawk88: Their starting RB is old and busted, their franchise QB looks to be a bust, their franchise WR is with the Jets now, the D is giving up 409 yards a game. Did I miss anything? About the only piece they seem to have is the possibility of building the line around Joe Thomas for the next 10 years.

You can't really call Quinn a bust when he's been courageously sitting on the bench since he was drafted for the sole reason that Cleveland doesn't want to pay him.

And not every QB can be Matt Ryan. Some players take some time to develop.

True enough. Problem is, I dont see any development. At all.

Jubeebee: jayhawk88: Their starting RB is old and busted, their franchise QB looks to be a bust, their franchise WR is with the Jets now, the D is giving up 409 yards a game. Did I miss anything? About the only piece they seem to have is the possibility of building the line around Joe Thomas for the next 10 years.

You can't really call Quinn a bust when he's been courageously sitting on the bench since he was drafted for the sole reason that Cleveland doesn't want to pay him.

And not every QB can be Matt Ryan. Some players take some time to develop.

O you can't say that. Fans hate that word. BTW, the last thing you want to tell them is that putting a QB behind a shaky oline with crappy receivers and no run game doesn't count as development.

Rumor has it that Lerner is going to hire Ernie Accorsie to groom Bernie Kosar as the next GM/President for the Browns.

/no I'm not kidding
//wish I was

Their old GM is the color man on the Crimson Tide Sports Network radio team

Bendal: Rumor has it that Lerner is going to hire Ernie Accorsie to groom Bernie Kosar as the next GM/President for the Browns.

/no I'm not kidding
//wish I was

Not according to Accorsi.

/wish it was true

"Too bad your ass got saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaacked."

Link (new window)

Hardy-r-r: The problem is and always will be Mangini.

Correct, although the Jets' love affair with Rex Ryan has come to a dead stop.

He's still better than "no emotion, but lots of adjectives" Mangini.

MattyFridays: Hardy-r-r: The problem is and always will be Mangini.

Correct, although the Jets' love affair with Rex Ryan has come to a dead stop.

He's still better than "no emotion, but lots of adjectives" Mangini.

I dont think weve lost interest in Rex Ryan. Frankly, I think he fielded an excellent team, and over achieved in the first few games. Leading to high expectations. I think the Jets are moving along right on schedule. There not getting beaten up by anyone, every loss has been pretty close, and thats with Sanchez turning the ball over more times than i can count. I think the biggest problem facing them now is, can Jenkins come back next year and still perform at a high level. Other than that, this team is solid and set up for a good 5 years.

Tuna for GM.

You guys can't be serious about Bernie Kosar... There isn't a god if that guy gets in the front office.

The Dreaded Rear Admiral: Bendal: Rumor has it that Lerner is going to hire Ernie Accorsie to groom Bernie Kosar as the next GM/President for the Browns.

/no I'm not kidding
//wish I was

Not according to Accorsi.

/wish it was true

Who are the current Patriots coordinators?

Jubeebee: jayhawk88: Their starting RB is old and busted, their franchise QB looks to be a bust, their franchise WR is with the Jets now, the D is giving up 409 yards a game. Did I miss anything? About the only piece they seem to have is the possibility of building the line around Joe Thomas for the next 10 years.

You can't really call Quinn a bust when he's been courageously sitting on the bench since he was drafted for the sole reason that Cleveland doesn't want to pay him.

And not every QB can be Matt Ryan. Some players take some time to develop.

Granted, but it's not like he's looked like a world beater when he has been in there. Which has more than a little to do with the team around him, I realize, but at some point, as someone already mentioned, you have to show progress. I don't think you can write him off as a complete failure as an NFL QB or anything, put him on a good team and he might be serviceable or even good, but I also think it's clear that he's not a franchise-level QB either.

Yeah, this will fix things.

Phil Savage is the GM who ruined the team, and it took them four years to get rid of him.

And where are all the idiots who thought it was a good idea to remove Brady Quinn after two games. Now it's too late to bring him back, and we're stuck with DA - who always sucked. Cleveland - and the fans - will never learn.

If they had chosen Quinn - from the start and not had any QB controversy - then we would probably not be 1-7. Mangina farked things up good.

spacechicken170am: Jubeebee: jayhawk88: Their starting RB is old and busted, their franchise QB looks to be a bust, their franchise WR is with the Jets now, the D is giving up 409 yards a game. Did I miss anything? About the only piece they seem to have is the possibility of building the line around Joe Thomas for the next 10 years.

You can't really call Quinn a bust when he's been courageously sitting on the bench since he was drafted for the sole reason that Cleveland doesn't want to pay him.

And not every QB can be Matt Ryan. Some players take some time to develop.

O you can't say that. Fans hate that word. BTW, the last thing you want to tell them is that putting a QB behind a shaky oline with crappy receivers and no run game doesn't count as development.

Hey it counts as a kind of development. For example in Detroit we developed Joey Harrington's mind to start thinking: "Okay three step drop and throw before the defensive front seven murders me." Matt Stafford should figure that one out in a year or so.

(Look at Aaron Rodgers and McNabb people! They sat for a few years, worked with pro level physical and posistion trainers and have turned out to be good solid QBs.)

/okay McNabb isn't the greatest, but you have to admit you'd take him long before a lot of the other chumps starting in the NFL

I can't even blame Mangini for this one....He was dealt some pretty nasty cards when he took the job in January. Couple that with the fact that the team has literally no talent on it, with the exception of Josh Cribbs, Jamal Lewis, and Brady Quinn (the latter two being either too old, or not given enough time to develop), lots of first-year players who have had to fill some big shoes (OTJ training is the LAST thing you want to be doing in the NFL), confusion about the new playbook and offensive style Mangini runs, Randy Lerner is an ineffective moron who uses team politics and bureaucracy in an effort to keep the team's bottom line minimal, and maximize his revenue streams from season ticket/ single game sales, and sponsorships....couple all that with the dropped passes, fumbled balls, a dumbass for a quarterback who should have realized his glory days were at Oregon, and just stopped right there...Asinine off the field antics by Braylon Edwards and Dante Stallworth, all which are distractions from team building and putting together an offense/ defensive package, because you don't know if some of your players are going to be on the field, have their minds in a different world, or in jail week in, week out.

This whole problem is MUCH MUCH bigger than Mangini, and firing him WON'T solve the problem...It'll exacerbate it. I say let the Browns finish out the season, and let Mangini try again next year. If he's still ineffective, then fire his ass. Cleveland fans always expect too much when they know their teams are relatively ineffective, yet we always want to complain when something doesn't go our way... Really, you can't have your goddamn cake and eat it too.

hicksfa2: I can't even blame Mangini for this one....He was dealt some pretty nasty cards when he took the job in January. Couple that with the fact that the team has literally no talent on it, with the exception of Josh Cribbs, Jamal Lewis, and Brady Quinn (the latter two being either too old, or not given enough time to develop), lots of first-year players who have had to fill some big shoes (OTJ training is the LAST thing you want to be doing in the NFL), confusion about the new playbook and offensive style Mangini runs, Randy Lerner is an ineffective moron who uses team politics and bureaucracy in an effort to keep the team's bottom line minimal, and maximize his revenue streams from season ticket/ single game sales, and sponsorships....couple all that with the dropped passes, fumbled balls, a dumbass for a quarterback who should have realized his glory days were at Oregon, and just stopped right there...Asinine off the field antics by Braylon Edwards and Dante Stallworth, all which are distractions from team building and putting together an offense/ defensive package, because you don't know if some of your players are going to be on the field, have their minds in a different world, or in jail week in, week out.

This whole problem is MUCH MUCH bigger than Mangini, and firing him WON'T solve the problem...It'll exacerbate it. I say let the Browns finish out the season, and let Mangini try again next year. If he's still ineffective, then fire his ass. Cleveland fans always expect too much when they know their teams are relatively ineffective, yet we always want to complain when something doesn't go our way... Really, you can't have your goddamn cake and eat it too.



You know, id be curious to know how many good coaches were dealt a bad team, and got fired. Manginis situation is a good example. Hes working with essentially nothing. And sure they arent producing anything, but what is to be expected. Hes got two qb's vying for the worst QB in the league honors. Im not saying Mangini is a good coach, but he certainly didnt look this bad with the Jets. He had some very respectable seasons. I just find it funny that prior to getting the Jets head coaching job, Mangini applied to be the head coach of my D3 school. And he would have gotten it, had the Jets not come knocking. What a swing of fate.

hicksfa2: Couple that with the fact that the team has literally no talent on it, with the exception of Josh Cribbs, Jamal Lewis, and Brady Quinn (the latter two being either too old, or not given enough time to develop), lots of first-year players who have had to fill some big shoes (OTJ training is the LAST thing you want to be doing in the NFL), confusion about the new playbook and offensive style Mangini runs, Randy Lerner is an ineffective moron who uses team politics and bureaucracy in an effort to keep the team's bottom line minimal, and maximize his revenue streams from season ticket/ single game sales, and sponsorships....couple all that with the dropped passes, fumbled balls, a dumbass for a quarterback who should have realized his glory days were at Oregon, and just stopped right there...Asinine off the field antics by Braylon Edwards and Dante Stallworth, all which are distractions from team building and putting together an offense/ defensive package, because you don't know if some of your players are going to be on the field, have their minds in a different world, or in jail week in, week out.

I thought Jerome Harrison stepped up pretty well when Lewis was hurt. I think they need to start leaning more on him taking the majority of touches, and obviously put Brady Quinn back in and look at trying to trade for maybe a Saints or Vikings WR.

Jubeebee: You can't really call Quinn a bust when he's been courageously sitting on the bench since he was drafted for the sole reason that Cleveland doesn't want to pay him.

Or maybe they don't want to pay him because he's a bust.

Troy McClure: Jubeebee: You can't really call Quinn a bust when he's been courageously sitting on the bench since he was drafted for the sole reason that Cleveland doesn't want to pay him.

Or maybe they don't want to pay him because he's a bust.

I wonder how likely that really is. I'm a Redskins fan and I've seen almost 20 QBs come through DC since Mark Rypien. Are they all really busts? Right now we have a lot of issue on offense and I'm hearing that Jason Campbell is our latest bust. Now he's not great but we have a lot of other things wrong with the offense.

1. Bad Play calling(looks to be fixed by the bingo caller)
2. Bad Play design
3. Wrong scheme for the personnel
4. broken down offensive line that can't pass protect or run block
5. RB that falls down after 3 yards
6. FB that's playing to not get hurt
7. 5'10' slot receiver masquerading as a #1
8. #2 WR that was scouted as needing several years of development
9. #3 WR that wouldn't make most nfl teams
10. no change of pace running back

I look at these issues and wonder if any QB could succeed here. Is this a similar situation to the Browns or are these QBs really that bad?

spacechicken170am: Right now we have a lot of issue on offense and I'm hearing that Jason Campbell is our latest bust.

Look at the numbers Campbell puts up and honestly say with a straight face that the guy is a bust. If I were an NFL franchise in need of a QB I'd take Campbell in a heartbeat. It's not his fault that his O-Line remembers the Kennedy Assassination, and that his team is run by a complete moron.

Quinn hasn't started nearly enough to be considered a bust. And his numbers, although not great, are also not terrible. For the future, I see the Browns letting him go and trading him to somewhere that needs a serviceable #2 QB. If he works his ass off to get better then gets an opportunity to start down the road, I see him having a pretty good career.

To furthur emphasize my point, why is it that we somehow draft all bust but New england can throw a guy in their that's never played a college game much less an NFL game and win 10 games? I think it is the organization that is busting their own QBs.

Hardy-r-r: The problem is and always will be Mangini Randy Lerner.

FTFY

JoeCowboy: When I see Mangini's name, I always read it as Mangina.

You're confusing him with the coach of Kansas' football team.

spacechicken170am: To furthur emphasize my point, why is it that we somehow draft all bust but New england can throw a guy in their that's never played a college game much less an NFL game and win 10 games? I think it is the organization that is busting their own QBs.

If Cassel had been thrown out as a rookie with a shiatty O line, no run game, no solid receivers, and a defense that considers giving up 350 yards a good day, he'd have been destroyed.

Instead he got one of the best lines in the league, a top-10 defense, Pro Bowl receivers, a varied running attack, and didn't start until he'd had a few years to adjust to the NFL.

In my opinion the best GMs hold to a few basic philosophies:
1: Build through the draft.
2: Build your lines first.
3: Build to fit your scheme.

It's like every crappy team now thinks their problem is at QB and if they were to just draft the next Peyton Manning, they'd turn into a perennial 12 win team like the Colts. So they blow high draft picks on skill positions and make big moves for free agents and then continue losing because their skill guys get injured or can't grasp the scheme.

Problem is, guys that can carry a team on their backs like Manning or Barry Sanders get into the HOF because that shiat ain't normal. You can't win if you base your entire philosophy around drafting of the top 10 skill players of a given decade because not only can't you predict that ahead of time, but there aren't enough of them to go around.

The NFL isn't Madden. If there's a choice between a skill player and a big guy in the first round, you take the big guy. The only reason Bears fans didn't pitch a fit when Angelo traded the Bears future away to get Cutler is because Angelo ALWAYS drafts for flash in the first round and 80% of the time completely farks it up. So the Bears figured if we're going to blow draft picks on a flashy QB, at least get one who's played an NFL game.

There's always a Pierre Thomas or Johnny Knox waiting in the later rounds. Linemen last longer, cost less, and make the everyone around them look better. Draft the big guy.

/rant over

Jubeebee: Linemen last longer, cost less, and make the everyone around them look better. Draft the big guy.

This sentence should be on plaques in every office of every NFL team management.

Just for fun, and in case anyone comes back to this thread, I did some irrelevant and completely anecdotal research.

Comparison of arguably the first round draft picks between arguably the best team this decade (Patriots) compared to arguably the worst team (Lions).

From 2000-2008, the Lions picked 3 OT, 4, WR, 1 QB, 1 RB, and 1 LB. That's 3 big guys, 6 skill positions, and one nonclassified.

In the same period, the Pats picked 3 DT, 2 TE, 1 G, 1 RB, 1 S, and 1 LB. That's 4 big guys, 1 skill position, and 4 nonclassified.

Yet even though DET drafted all of the highly touted offensive prospects, it's NE that's run over teams offensively in recent years.

Jubeebee: Linemen last longer, cost less, and make the everyone around them look better. Draft the big guy.

Agreed. I've watched Matt Millen pick Joey Harrington, Charles Rogers, etc., and when he DID pick a lineman, he went with Gosder Cherilus.

The Lions need someone in the front office who can properly evaluate men in the trenches. When you can't block or tackle, it doesn't matter who's throwing, catching and running the football. Might as well be the equipment manager.

Jubeebee: Just for fun, and in case anyone comes back to this thread, I did some irrelevant and completely anecdotal research.

Comparison of arguably the first round draft picks between arguably the best team this decade (Patriots) compared to arguably the worst team (Lions).

From 2000-2008, the Lions picked 3 OT, 4, WR, 1 QB, 1 RB, and 1 LB. That's 3 big guys, 6 skill positions, and one nonclassified.

In the same period, the Pats picked 3 DT, 2 TE, 1 G, 1 RB, 1 S, and 1 LB. That's 4 big guys, 1 skill position, and 4 nonclassified.

Yet even though DET drafted all of the highly touted offensive prospects, it's NE that's run over teams offensively in recent years.

In all fairness that's only the first round. It's not just what you draft so much as where you draft. The first round is for elite left tackles and elite left guards. The second round is for right/left tackles and elite left guards/center prospects. The third, 4th, and 5th rounds are for right guards, centers, and fliers on tackles. The Pats spent more valuable picks on linemen and drafted in the proper rounds. Starters come out of the first 5 rounds. The Pats took 10 linemen in the first 5 rounds while the Lions only took 6. The Lions also took 2 right tackles in the first round and a center in the second.

R1 G
R2 T T
R3 T
R4 T T
R5 C T T
R6 G T
R7 G

Their line looks like:
LT 2nd LG 1st C 5th RG FA RT 3rd

R1 T T T
R2 C
R3
R4 G
R5 T
R6 T
R7 G T G

Their line looks like:
LT 1st LG FA C 2nd RG FA RT 1st

The Lions failed to address the left tackle position and that's still killing their line. They took 1 left tackle and he's a bust. Backus needs to move to left guard and Peterman needs to move to right guard. They must get a real left tackle. New England by casting the fishnet and drafting 8 tackles in the middle rounds eventually found a great left tackle in the second. They also drafted an elite left guard in the first and got lucky on a late round center. By drafting with more valuable picks and using the picks in the correct rounds the Pats built a great offensive line.