TFA went on about the greatness of the red states and mentioned low taxes in alaska one too many times... ctrl-f>oil ctrl-f>petro returned no results, I quit reading.

FTFA: According to the most recent data available from the Census Bureau, for the fiscal year ending in 2006, Americans paid an average of $4,001 per person in state and local taxes. But Californians paid $4,517 per person, well above that national average, while Texans paid $3,235. It's worth noting, by the way, that while state and local governments in both California and Texas get most of their revenue from taxes, the revenue is augmented by subsidies from the federal government and by fees charged for governmental services and facilities, such as trash collection, airports, public university tuition, and mass transit. California had total revenues of $11,160 per capita, more than every state but Alaska, Wyoming, and New York, while Texas placed a distant 44th on this scale, with revenues of all governmental entities totaling $7,558 per person.

This article makes no attempt to account for the fact that median household income in California is, you know, different than all of the other states, nor the fact the taxes that are collected to fund those federal subsidies come disproportionately from wealthier states, like, for instance, California.

I dub thee WHAARRRGARBL.

Well DUH.

Soak the Rich, Lose the Rich (new window)

Americans know how to use the moving van to escape high taxes.

.....Here's the problem for states that want to pry more money out of the wallets of rich people. It never works because people, investment capital and businesses are mobile: They can leave tax-unfriendly states and move to tax-friendly states.

And the evidence that we discovered in our new study for the American Legislative Exchange Council, "Rich States, Poor States," published in March, shows that Americans are more sensitive to high taxes than ever before. The tax differential between low-tax and high-tax states is widening, meaning that a relocation from high-tax California or Ohio, to no-income tax Texas or Tennessee, is all the more financially profitable both in terms of lower tax bills and more job opportunities.

Updating some research from Richard Vedder of Ohio University, we found that from 1998 to 2007, more than 1,100 people every day including Sundays and holidays moved from the nine highest income-tax states such as California, New Jersey, New York and Ohio and relocated mostly to the nine tax-haven states with no income tax, including Florida, Nevada, New Hampshire and Texas. We also found that over these same years the no-income tax states created 89% more jobs and had 32% faster personal income growth than their high-tax counterparts.

Did the greater prosperity in low-tax states happen by chance? Is it coincidence that the two highest tax-rate states in the nation, California and New York, have the biggest fiscal holes to repair? No. Dozens of academic studies -- old and new -- have found clear and irrefutable statistical evidence that high state and local taxes repel jobs and businesses......

Of course they do. The federal government supports it by taking money from blue states and giving it to the low-tax red states. Perhaps we should try actually giving each state the money it contributes, and see what happens when low-tax states have to scramble to make up the budget shortfall.

Cagey B: This article makes no attempt to account for the fact that median household income in California is, you know, different than all of the other states,

Bingo. First thing I noticed.

Oh neat. I'm considering moving from Dallas to teh Bay Area. What's that mean?

question_dj: Oh neat. I'm considering moving from Dallas to teh Bay Area. What's that mean?

i think that means you're a patriot?

the biggest problem i have with this study is that it makes absolutely no attempt to control for other possible drivers of the data (e.g. sky-rocketing housing prices in california, shifting regional economic factors, etc). it also goes out of its way to exclude two states that were hurt by katrina without acknowledging that texas received a large amount of those transplants. it just seems like an extremely simplistic study to be presenting as proof of ideological victory.

question_dj: Oh neat. I'm considering moving from Dallas to teh Bay Area. What's that mean?

It's awesome? The Bay Area is my favorite place. I went to college there and have family there. Just a great, great place to live.

If everyone leaves won't the red states have to raise taxes because they won't be getting federal welfare?

thomps: i think that means you're a patriot?

i read your post wrong, i thought you were leaving california for texas. i retract my comment and submit that you are a traitor and probably a communist.

How does this jive w/the notion that more federal tax dollars end up flowing to these (hard werkin, anti-welfare, no gubnt) low tax states.

Gato Negro: "Tax it, and they will leave."

so THAT'S how we can get rid of the Mexicans.

DamnYankees: Cagey B: This article makes no attempt to account for the fact that median household income in California is, you know, different than all of the other states,

Bingo. First thing I noticed.

The higher median household income in California is more than made up for by the higher cost of living and the highest tax rate in the entire country.

12349876: Gato Negro: "Tax it, and they will leave."

so THAT'S how we can get rid of the Mexicans.

No, Mexicans are brown...that's what our bombs are for.

OgreMagi: The higher median household income in California is more than made up for by the higher cost of living and the highest tax rate in the entire country.

That's fine. But the article doesn't even begin to adjust for that. If we're gonna have the conversation, lets gave in honestly.

Racht: Of course they do. The federal government supports it by taking money from blue states and giving it to the low-tax red states. Perhaps we should try actually giving each state the money it contributes, and see what happens when low-tax states have to scramble to make up the budget shortfall.

Really....kind of like taking money from the wealthy (who contribute more) and giving it to the poor (who contribute less).

Absolutely...but let's try it on an individual level as well.

the Red State fantasy.

The people get rich in states that allow them to be rich (generally blue states) and then when they have the money they move to the states with lower taxes (generally red states).

Duh.

How do we just get rid of the black jellybeans without sifting through them individually?

Gato Negro: "Tax it, and they will leave."

12349876: so THAT'S how we can get rid of the Mexicans.


Not exactly.

You bleed the population white with taxes so that everyone who won't vote for you leaves. That way, all those who stay are on welfare and you get to stay in power.

It's a proven system. Liberals just love it...


See: Mexifornia

DamnYankees: question_dj: Oh neat. I'm considering moving from Dallas to teh Bay Area. What's that mean?

It's awesome? The Bay Area is my favorite place. I went to college there and have family there. Just a great, great place to live.

That's kind of what I'm thinking too. I've been out there for work and love it, so I'm going to go out there for a few personal trips and see if it's the place for me.

thomps: thomps: i think that means you're a patriot?

i read your post wrong, i thought you were leaving california for texas. i retract my comment and submit that you are a traitor and probably a communist.

Honestly, I don't see much of an improvement moving in either direction.

OgreMagi: DamnYankees: Cagey B: This article makes no attempt to account for the fact that median household income in California is, you know, different than all of the other states,

Bingo. First thing I noticed.

The higher median household income in California is more than made up for by the higher cost of living and the highest tax rate in the entire country.

I want California to raise taxes more. Seriously, drive the "me first" f*ckers back out of the state. I'll gladly pay 40-50% on my income if it keeps people out. Doubly so if the state just uses those taxes to pay on existing debt while continuing to cut services.

Less people, less water issues.
Less people, less energy issues.
Less people, less people who have a philosophy built around the word "deserve."

Who the fark would any want to live in a state with no services though?

And is this only talking about income taxes? States gotta generate cash somehow - if ya don't with Income tax, ya have to with Sales tax or property tax or something... no state takes no revenue.

Trust me y'all, Texas is not worth it. Not even close.

/born and raised

question_dj: Oh neat. I'm considering moving from Dallas to teh Bay Area. What's that mean?

It means you will pay at least $1500 for a small apartment if you wish to live in a decent neighborhood. It means what you thought was a pretty good income will turn out to be not so great because everything costs so much more. It means you'll be paying a state income tax AND a sales tax -- each sitting at about 10% (give or take). It also means a government so completely incompetent that they can't agree on the simpliest things, like cut farking spending because we're broke.

On the plus side, you get great weather, excellent night life, and beaches and mountains within reasonable distances.

question_dj: Oh neat. I'm considering moving from Dallas to teh Bay Area. What's that mean?

future happiness.

Sweet! Less traffic for me to deal with! How do we accelerate the process?

netweavr: OgreMagi: DamnYankees: Cagey B: This article makes no attempt to account for the fact that median household income in California is, you know, different than all of the other states,

Bingo. First thing I noticed.

The higher median household income in California is more than made up for by the higher cost of living and the highest tax rate in the entire country.

I want California to raise taxes more. Seriously, drive the "me first" f*ckers back out of the state. I'll gladly pay 40-50% on my income if it keeps people out. Doubly so if the state just uses those taxes to pay on existing debt while continuing to cut services.

Less people, less water issues.
Less people, less energy issues.
Less people, less people who have a philosophy built around the word "deserve."

The "me first" people are the ones collecting the most from government provided services. The ones you would drive out are the ones paying for those services.

I do not believe that people want to pay lower taxes. It's counterintuitive.

OgreMagi: question_dj: Oh neat. I'm considering moving from Dallas to teh Bay Area. What's that mean?

It means you will pay at least $1500 for a small apartment if you wish to live in a decent neighborhood. It means what you thought was a pretty good income will turn out to be not so great because everything costs so much more. It means you'll be paying a state income tax AND a sales tax -- each sitting at about 10% (give or take). It also means a government so completely incompetent that they can't agree on the simpliest things, like cut farking spending because we're broke.

On the plus side, you get great weather, excellent night life, and beaches and mountains within reasonable distances.

i thought you were describing chicago until you got to the plus side. dammit.

soy_bomb: I do not believe that people want to pay lower taxes. It's counterintuitive.

Wha?

I really don't pay attention to my tax rates. There is not sales tax, but I have a property tax. Even when you have a sales tax, its factored in for you at a steady rate, so it makes no real difference. No state tax, but a federal tax... Its a cost of living expense, something I barely consciously notice. I live where I live because I like it, taxes doesn't come into it. Its hard for me to grasp that people actually move because of them.

What's a "conservative researcher"? Someone who already has results but is looking for the carefully crafted questions to ask that confirm it?

thomps: OgreMagi: question_dj: Oh neat. I'm considering moving from Dallas to teh Bay Area. What's that mean?

It means you will pay at least $1500 for a small apartment if you wish to live in a decent neighborhood. It means what you thought was a pretty good income will turn out to be not so great because everything costs so much more. It means you'll be paying a state income tax AND a sales tax -- each sitting at about 10% (give or take). It also means a government so completely incompetent that they can't agree on the simpliest things, like cut farking spending because we're broke.

On the plus side, you get great weather, excellent night life, and beaches and mountains within reasonable distances.

i thought you were describing chicago until you got to the plus side. dammit.

At least Chicago has some awesome Blues clubs. Or have they closed all those, too?

According to the most recent data available from the Census Bureau, for the fiscal year ending in 2006, Americans paid an average of $4,001 per person in state and local taxes. But Californians paid $4,517 per person, well above that national average, while Texans paid $3,235.

Californians then pay $4,517/$4,001 = 113% of national average taxes.

On the other hand, Californians earn $61,021/$52,029 = 117% of national median household income. That actually means that net tax rates for California are below average.

It's not surprising that wealthier individuals pay more in taxes than poor individuals, and wealthier states will thus have a higher average tax payment than poor ones.

Taxes really depend on what you get out of them. I've lived in some high tax areas that weren't really all that bad, the efficient and easy to use mass transit, the huge libraries and numerous parks / nature areas, free outdoor movies in the summer, etc, etc all made the taxing bearable.

Whereas where I live now I have little in the way of public services (you want water, dig a well, etc). So while I pay less in taxes I pay in other ways. I know have a septic service and contract out my own garbage hauler. So while taxes are lower I still pay for the services, now the check is just made payable to a private company instead of the city.

The biggest advantage to less government provided service is that you can figure the provider if they suck, a little harder to fire the trash service the city has a 10 year contract with.

OgreMagi: At least Chicago has some awesome Blues clubs. Or have they closed all those, too?

quite a few in the bay area, too. chicago is more local, thus a little more familiar to me, but i've never been at a loss for entertainment when in the bay area (be it jazz, blues, or that guy who hides behind a bush and scares the shiat out of people at the wharf)

OgreMagi: question_dj: Oh neat. I'm considering moving from Dallas to teh Bay Area. What's that mean?

It means you will pay at least $1500 for a small apartment if you wish to live in a decent neighborhood. It means what you thought was a pretty good income will turn out to be not so great because everything costs so much more. It means you'll be paying a state income tax AND a sales tax -- each sitting at about 10% (give or take). It also means a government so completely incompetent that they can't agree on the simpliest things, like cut farking spending because we're broke.

On the plus side, you get great weather, excellent night life, and beaches and mountains within reasonable distances.

I've already looked into housing and it looks like an apartment similar to the luxury high rise I'm in now will be marginally more than I'm paying now. The thing that will hurt will be the goddamn income taxes. As far as incompetent government, please see Rick Perry.

The kicker is the women and accessibility to outdoor stuff.

OgreMagi: thomps: OgreMagi: question_dj: Oh neat. I'm considering moving from Dallas to teh Bay Area. What's that mean?

It means you will pay at least $1500 for a small apartment if you wish to live in a decent neighborhood. It means what you thought was a pretty good income will turn out to be not so great because everything costs so much more. It means you'll be paying a state income tax AND a sales tax -- each sitting at about 10% (give or take). It also means a government so completely incompetent that they can't agree on the simpliest things, like cut farking spending because we're broke.

On the plus side, you get great weather, excellent night life, and beaches and mountains within reasonable distances.

i thought you were describing chicago until you got to the plus side. dammit.

At least Chicago has some awesome Blues clubs. Or have they closed all those, too?

there's still a couple around. my dad insists on going down to buddy guy's whenever he comes in for a visit. i'd still rather have the good weather.

please: What's a "conservative researcher"? Someone who already has results but is looking for the carefully crafted questions to ask that confirm it?

No, that would be an AGW climate change enthusiast.

OgreMagi: The "me first" people are the ones collecting the most from government provided services. The ones you would drive out are the ones paying for those services.

You haven't been paying attention to California. The opposite is happening. The taxes being increased are regressive and the services being cut are aimed at lower-income levels. During normal times, we don't care if you're sucking on the government teat, but these days we're weaning people by souring the milk.

We're cutting off fat, not muscle.

OgreMagi: question_dj: Oh neat. I'm considering moving from Dallas to teh Bay Area. What's that mean?

It means you will pay at least $1500 for a small apartment if you wish to live in a decent neighborhood. It means what you thought was a pretty good income will turn out to be not so great because everything costs so much more. It means you'll be paying a state income tax AND a sales tax -- each sitting at about 10% (give or take). It also means a government so completely incompetent that they can't agree on the simpliest things, like cut farking spending because we're broke.

On the plus side, you get great weather, excellent night life, and beaches and mountains within reasonable distances.

It also means that you will be living in the only state that, if it were an independent nation, would be a member of the G8.

OgreMagi: DamnYankees: Cagey B: This article makes no attempt to account for the fact that median household income in California is, you know, different than all of the other states,

Bingo. First thing I noticed.

The higher median household income in California is more than made up for by the higher cost of living and the highest tax rate in the entire country.

You have numbers? And CA doesn't have the highest tax rate in the country.

I just moved from FL to NJ and I couldn't be more happy... Glad to be out of that hick state.

OgreMagi: netweavr: OgreMagi: DamnYankees: Cagey B: This article makes no attempt to account for the fact that median household income in California is, you know, different than all of the other states,

Bingo. First thing I noticed.

The higher median household income in California is more than made up for by the higher cost of living and the highest tax rate in the entire country.

I want California to raise taxes more. Seriously, drive the "me first" f*ckers back out of the state. I'll gladly pay 40-50% on my income if it keeps people out. Doubly so if the state just uses those taxes to pay on existing debt while continuing to cut services.

Less people, less water issues.
Less people, less energy issues.
Less people, less people who have a philosophy built around the word "deserve."

The "me first" people are the ones collecting the most from government provided services. The ones you would drive out are the ones paying for those services.

Jesus Christ, it must be comforting to live in a black and white partisan jackoff fantasy land.

PascalsGhost: You have numbers? And CA doesn't have the highest tax rate in the country.

From my quick googling, it looks like its highest tax rate is 9.3%, and Vermont has 9.5%.

But you can all suck it - here in NYC I get to pay *city* income tax. W00t!

PascalsGhost: Jesus Christ, it must be comforting to live in a black and white partisan jackoff fantasy land.

i just thought it was entertaining to see a 'me first' angle at decrying 'me firstism'.

heap: that guy who hides behind a bush and scares the shiat out of people at the wharf)

The Bushman is the greatest hero in American history.