Meh. An hour later, they'll be broke again.

China has hundred of millions of people in poverty. It doesn't take much for them to have economic growth because they're basically at 0.

If the index had shown anything else, there would have been... consequences... for the authors. I take US economic stats with a big grain of salt. Chinese ones with a lot bigger one.

I read an article recently that talked about the artificial inflation of the Chinese economy, in essence, because it's entirely controlled by the government. When it finally collapses it will completely ruin the global economy.

Of course, I'm completely retarded when economics is the subject and I could have seen this article in HIGHLIGHTS Children's Magazine so take that for what it means.

TeddyBallGame: I could have seen this article in HIGHLIGHTS Children's Magazine so take that for what it means.

Apparently, our dentists share the same waiting room.

TeddyBallGame: I read an article recently that talked about the artificial inflation of the Chinese U.S. economy, in essence, because it's entirely controlled by in control of (the super rich who own) the government. When it finally collapses it will completely ruin the global economy.

Of course, I'm completely retarded when economics is the subject and I could have seen this article in HIGHLIGHTS Children's Magazine so take that for what it means.

FTFY

The Chinese government has no choice but to put forth whatever stimulus measures are required for 8-10% or better GDP growth. The last thing they (for, for that matter, anybody) want is to have a few hundred million angry, unemployed males marching on parliament carrying torches and pitchforks.

China = Porsche GT2 loaded with dynamite and a 15 year old boy, with the petal to the metal, behind the wheel.

TeddyBallGame: I read an article recently that talked about the artificial inflation of the Chinese economy, in essence, because it's entirely controlled by the government. When it finally collapses it will completely ruin the global economy.

FAIL, the Chinese are Communist in name only. There are only a few industries that the gov has a hand in and those are mainly the coal and steel industries.

It's easier to go into business in China than in the US. They are more capitalist than we are. The reason they are doing so much better is because the government is NOT involved in trying to fix the economy.

The one area where they are involved is with the currency peg and this is creating problems in China. Eventually the Chinese are going to have to drop the peg and let the US dollar fall because propping it up is creating bubbles in their economy as we are seeing.

Don't you mean to put a picture of Bill Clinton there, Hobodeluxe? It was under his administration that Permanent Normal Trade Relation status was granted to China, and it was also during that time that China's trade imbalance with the United States grew to unprecedented proportions.

I'm sure the amount of money that China attempted to pump into Clinton's election coffers had nothing to do with it, though.

dittybopper: Don't you mean to put a picture of Bill Clinton there, Hobodeluxe? It was under his administration that Permanent Normal Trade Relation status was granted to China, and it was also during that time that China's trade imbalance with the United States grew to unprecedented proportions.

I'm sure the amount of money that China attempted to pump into Clinton's election coffers had nothing to do with it, though.

The Chinese celebrate the occasion in Tienanmen Square every year. You know, where they slaughtered thousands of protesters while the Bush administration did nothing. Well, they did suspend military sales and sent Scrowcroft on an illegal trip there.

China is on a major, decades long sugar/caffeine buzz. Eventually, though, they are going to crash.

That's what I mostly worry about, because that means that China is going to have some *MAJOR* internal unrest. Totalitarian governments hate unrest with a passion, and China even more so, given their long history of requiring 'order' in society. Couple that with their demographic time-bomb, the tens of millions of young men with no corresponding young women because of the "One Child" policy combined with prenatal gender tests and selective abortions.

The only way to turn that unrest into something "useful" for the government is to shift the blame to an external source, and that scares the living dogshiat out of me. When things finally tank in China, they are probably going to go to war, and we'll have to get involved.

Now, China can't really project power much past its own borders, but they might make moves against Russian, India, or Taiwan. Taiwan is probably the most likely, as the PRC has always considered it a break-away province, not a separate country.

No matter where they go, though, they will try a move to cripple our response, and that's bad news.

TheShavingofOccam123: dittybopper: Don't you mean to put a picture of Bill Clinton there, Hobodeluxe? It was under his administration that Permanent Normal Trade Relation status was granted to China, and it was also during that time that China's trade imbalance with the United States grew to unprecedented proportions.

I'm sure the amount of money that China attempted to pump into Clinton's election coffers had nothing to do with it, though.

The Chinese celebrate the occasion in Tienanmen Square every year. You know, where they slaughtered thousands of protesters while the Bush administration did nothing. Well, they did suspend military sales and sent Scrowcroft on an illegal trip there.

ToMAYto, ToMAHto.

Bush I wasn't great on China, conceded. But to blame Bush II for stuff that happened during the Clinton administration is really stretching it. That's what I was pointing out.

Also, the Chinese didn't start trying to monetarily influence US presidential elections until the Clinton administration, so they must have thought they were going to be successful.

China's Communist Party has said they need to maintain at least 8% GDP growth for social stability. It doesn't matter how good or bad their economy is actually doing at the end of the year they are going to report between 8 and 8.5%.

TeddyBallGame: Of course, I'm completely retarded when economics is the subject

Of course. Economics is a riddle wrapped up in an enigma engineered to seperate the slaves from the masters with an impenetrable wall of jargon and nonsense. It was also made in China.

dittybopper:
Now, China can't really project power much past its own borders, but they might make moves against Russian, India, or Taiwan. Taiwan is probably the most likely, as the PRC has always considered it a break-away province, not a separate country.

No matter where they go, though, they will try a move to cripple our response, and that's bad news.

Russia is the only country they have a strategic alliance with and they are both members of the SCO.

India and China are seperated by the Tibetian plateau. The PLA doesn't have the capablities to launch a large scale attack through it yet.

Taiwan's election of Ma is giving the PRC its best hope for peaceful reunification ever. They aren't going to mess that up unless Taiwan does something really really stupid.

China is very capable of turning around their social issues and poverty. Economic growth leads the way to social growth in this case.

Prepare for your future world leader.

Crosshair: TeddyBallGame: I read an article recently that talked about the artificial inflation of the Chinese economy, in essence, because it's entirely controlled by the government. When it finally collapses it will completely ruin the global economy.

FAIL, the Chinese are Communist in name only. There are only a few industries that the gov has a hand in and those are mainly the coal and steel industries.

It's easier to go into business in China than in the US. They are more capitalist than we are. The reason they are doing so much better is because the government is NOT involved in trying to fix the economy.

The one area where they are involved is with the currency peg and this is creating problems in China. Eventually the Chinese are going to have to drop the peg and let the US dollar fall because propping it up is creating bubbles in their economy as we are seeing.

China is where the United States was at around 1890-1900. They've embraced raw, unabashed capitalism. Give it 20-30 years, they'll start regulating themselves just like we found the need to. Until then, anything goes.

dittybopper: TheShavingofOccam123: dittybopper: Don't you mean to put a picture of Bill Clinton there, Hobodeluxe? It was under his administration that Permanent Normal Trade Relation status was granted to China, and it was also during that time that China's trade imbalance with the United States grew to unprecedented proportions.

I'm sure the amount of money that China attempted to pump into Clinton's election coffers had nothing to do with it, though.

The Chinese celebrate the occasion in Tienanmen Square every year. You know, where they slaughtered thousands of protesters while the Bush administration did nothing. Well, they did suspend military sales and sent Scrowcroft on an illegal trip there.

ToMAYto, ToMAHto.

Bush I wasn't great on China, conceded. But to blame Bush II for stuff that happened during the Clinton administration is really stretching it. That's what I was pointing out.

Also, the Chinese didn't start trying to monetarily influence US presidential elections until the Clinton administration, so they must have thought they were going to be successful.

I think you're right on the Chinese and their money. I couldn't find anything about contributions to H.W.'s campaign.

We have no way of knowing the actual growth rate because the officially released numbers have a lot of political significance. That said, even with the high numbers they report, there have been many indications that China's officially published growth rate is lower than reality. In an effort to curb the massive inflation they would be experiencing, they intentionally release lower numbers. They still experience inflationary effects, obviously, but not as much as they would if the world thought their growth rate was recklessly high and artificially driven.

Those who think China is on a "sugar buzz" are kidding themselves. China is lending money on a very large scale. That type of financial effect has very positive effects long-term. While rampant, explosive growth is obviously unsustainable, farther down the road, their outside investment will return many times over. I, personally, think their economy has certain similarities to the early 20th century US economy (and many other earlier economies) with its high manufacturing and increasingly complex and strong financial market. Add to that a very hungry population and I think you have strong growth for much of the rest of century.

With a billion citizens literally starving to death, you'd think they'd have more to show for it.

Carth: dittybopper:
Now, China can't really project power much past its own borders, but they might make moves against Russian, India, or Taiwan. Taiwan is probably the most likely, as the PRC has always considered it a break-away province, not a separate country.

No matter where they go, though, they will try a move to cripple our response, and that's bad news.

Russia is the only country they have a strategic alliance with and they are both members of the SCO.

India and China are seperated by the Tibetian plateau. The PLA doesn't have the capablities to launch a large scale attack through it yet.

Taiwan's election of Ma is giving the PRC its best hope for peaceful reunification ever. They aren't going to mess that up unless Taiwan does something really really stupid.

You missed my point entirely.

I was saying that if (and most likely when) unrest in China gets bad, they will have to find an external enemy to channel that unrest.

Since they can't project power much past their borders (ie., they aren't going to invade Outer Bophuthatswana), that limits their options.

My list wasn't inclusive, I just happened to choose countries that the PRC has fought against (though I didn't include Vietnam).

The PRC and India have fought battles on the Tibetan Plateau, most notably in the 1960's, but as recently as 22 years ago. Plus, you don't have to actually *INVADE* a country in order to be at war with them. You just have to fight them.

India would be a good enemy in that regard: It would allow the PRC to put tens of millions of young men under the control of the PLA and subject to military discipline, and it would allow them to be put in a remote, sparsely populated area.

The terrain prevents a mass mechanized invasion, but it doesn't prevent a mass invasion on foot. The same problems a mechanized division would have in attack would also be problems in defense. Then you have the airborne factor: In 1962, neither the PRC nor India had effective airborne/airmobile forces. This is no longer true for either country. In 1987, India used Mi-26 helicopters to move light armor into the region, effectively trying to envelope the PLA.

One other factor that might make China look to the Southwest for an enemy: India is the only other country that can compete with it on a cheap labor basis. If things go bad in the Chinese economy, it may seem to them like India is stealing their business.

Possible, like I said, but I think a move against Taiwan would be the most likely. Taiwan wouldn't have to do something stupid. It's a thorn in the side of the PRC, and if internal unrest looks like it might undo the order that the CCP thrives on, it will manufacture a crisis in order to turn the peoples hate from internal sources to external. Nothing brings fighting factions together like an common external enemy.

Crosshair: FAIL, the Chinese are Communist in name only. There are only a few industries that the gov has a hand in and those are mainly the coal and steel industries.


Bullshiat. Chinese business is filled with PLA officers, who often refer to each other by their rank in the army rather than their position in business. They view this as economic war with us, not a trade relationship. They despise the roundeye, Americans in particular, and have been brainwashed since birth to do so. They seek to destroy us and we keep hoping they will suddenly turn into Australia.

There will be war, hopefully sooner than later - put the Chicom Conspiracy where it belongs: under 3 ft of radioactive rubble.

/done business there

dittybopper: Carth: dittybopper:
Now, China can't really project power much past its own borders, but they might make moves against Russian, India, or Taiwan. Taiwan is probably the most likely, as the PRC has always considered it a break-away province, not a separate country.

No matter where they go, though, they will try a move to cripple our response, and that's bad news.

Russia is the only country they have a strategic alliance with and they are both members of the SCO.

India and China are seperated by the Tibetian plateau. The PLA doesn't have the capablities to launch a large scale attack through it yet.

Taiwan's election of Ma is giving the PRC its best hope for peaceful reunification ever. They aren't going to mess that up unless Taiwan does something really really stupid.

You missed my point entirely.

I was saying that if (and most likely when) unrest in China gets bad, they will have to find an external enemy to channel that unrest.

Since they can't project power much past their borders (ie., they aren't going to invade Outer Bophuthatswana), that limits their options.

My list wasn't inclusive, I just happened to choose countries that the PRC has fought against (though I didn't include Vietnam).

The PRC and India have fought battles on the Tibetan Plateau, most notably in the 1960's, but as recently as 22 years ago. Plus, you don't have to actually *INVADE* a country in order to be at war with them. You just have to fight them.

India would be a good enemy in that regard: It would allow the PRC to put tens of millions of young men under the control of the PLA and subject to military discipline, and it would allow them to be put in a remote, sparsely populated area.

The terrain prevents a mass mechanized invasion, but it doesn't prevent a mass invasion on foot. The same problems a mechanized division would have in attack would also be problems in defense. Then you have the airborne factor: In 1962, neither the PRC nor India had effective airborne/airmobile forces. This is no longer true for either country. In 1987, India used Mi-26 helicopters to move light armor into the region, effectively trying to envelope the PLA.

One other factor that might make China look to the Southwest for an enemy: India is the only other country that can compete with it on a cheap labor basis. If things go bad in the Chinese economy, it may seem to them like India is stealing their business.

Possible, like I said, but I think a move against Taiwan would be the most likely. Taiwan wouldn't have to do something stupid. It's a thorn in the side of the PRC, and if internal unrest looks like it might undo the order that the CCP thrives on, it will manufacture a crisis in order to turn the peoples hate from internal sources to external. Nothing brings fighting factions together like an common external enemy.

I got your point but it contradicts everything sinologists believe.

Domestic unrest is primarily caused by official corruption, ethnic strife, rural-urban inequality and land-reform. USCC reports account around 90% of all mass incidents to those 4 causes.

Refocusing the anger of the population through nationalism wouldn't work to address any of those. It is far more likely we'd see the PAP crack down in rural areas and a campaign launched large scale crack down against the "extremists" in Xinjiang. This would allow the CCP to focus the nationalism of the Han against a threat to the state without angering their SCO, ASEAN partners or the United States.

If domestic unrest gets bad going to war will make it worst. Not only would the PAP have to quell the population but the PLA couldn't lend material support since they'd be fighting a foreign war.

Apik0r0s: Crosshair: FAIL, the Chinese are Communist in name only. There are only a few industries that the gov has a hand in and those are mainly the coal and steel industries.


Bullshiat. Chinese business is filled with PLA officers, who often refer to each other by their rank in the army rather than their position in business. They view this as economic war with us, not a trade relationship. They despise the roundeye, Americans in particular, and have been brainwashed since birth to do so. They seek to destroy us and we keep hoping they will suddenly turn into Australia.

There will be war, hopefully sooner than later - put the Chicom Conspiracy where it belongs: under 3 ft of radioactive rubble.

/done business there

My friend who is currently doing business there would disagree with you. While I might agree that many of them are giving American businessmen the red carpet treatment in order to learn better how we do things and to emulate those things that make us so successful, I don't believe there's a concerted effort to destroy us, and neither does he. There is no advantage to that.

He's been doing business with China for several years now and has profited nicely from his efforts, and so have his Chinese counterparts. Seems rather symbiotic to me.

Carth:
I got your point but it contradicts everything sinologists believe.

Domestic unrest is primarily caused by official corruption, ethnic strife, rural-urban inequality and land-reform. USCC reports account around 90% of all mass incidents to those 4 causes.

Refocusing the anger of the population through nationalism wouldn't work to address any of those.

It wouldn't address those issues, naturally, but it would distract the population from them, at least temporarily.


It is far more likely we'd see the PAP crack down in rural areas and a campaign launched large scale crack down against the "extremists" in Xinjiang. This would allow the CCP to focus the nationalism of the Han against a threat to the state without angering their SCO, ASEAN partners or the United States.

If domestic unrest gets bad going to war will make it worst. Not only would the PAP have to quell the population but the PLA couldn't lend material support since they'd be fighting a foreign war.

I'm talking about a collapse of the Chinese economic bubble. Uighars in remote Bumfarkistan won't be the issue: It will be all the unemployed and restless individuals in the industrial areas of the East. What some small population of separatist Muslims in the Northwest does or doesn't do won't matter to Xin and Jin down in Guanzhou when they lose their jobs making cheap plastic widgets.

TeddyBallGame: I read an article recently that talked about the artificial inflation of the Chinese economy, in essence, because it's entirely controlled by the government. When it finally collapses it will completely ruin the global economy.

Of course, I'm completely retarded when economics is the subject and I could have seen this article in HIGHLIGHTS Children's Magazine so take that for what it means.

Actually the funny thing is that they'll probably be better off. The artificial manipulation of the Chinese currency has been one of my arguments against trading with them for years. They intentionally kept the value of their currency low to keep their products cheaper whereas any other country would have had the value go up and more parity would have occurred.

In any case:

Bush: 'Our Long National Nightmare Of Peace And Prosperity Is Finally Over' (new window)



/obligatory

inglixthemad:
Actually the funny thing is that they'll probably be better off. The artificial manipulation of the Chinese currency has been one of my arguments against trading with them for years. They intentionally kept the value of their currency low to keep their products cheaper whereas any other country would have had the value go up and more parity would have occurred.


The Chinese, as far as I understand, can only manipulate their own currency by funding US debt, since they're essentially pegging it to the dollar - which makes the Peter Schiff scenario of 'decoupling' between the US & Chinese economies pretty unlikely.

I don't think that comparisons between the US in the late 1800s and China now are valid - the rest of the world is a different place and the US at the time was a relatively 'new' country. China's economic development may be fairly recent but it's (obviously) an ancient country with a pretty entrenched culture and way of doing things.

Also, their growth isn't covering their rate of inflation - Inflation in China at 15%?

China's neither Communist or capitalist but oligarchal - the worst crony capitalism that'll be likely be its undoing in the long run and is also what's ruining the US. http://chinesepolitics.blogspot.com/ (new window). At least, one can hope.

Crosshair: FAIL, the Chinese are Communist in name only. There are only a few industries that the gov has a hand in and those are mainly the coal and steel industries.

Settle down with the FAIL man! I was just mentioning I read an article that mentions this about the Chinese economy. Not my words just something I though was interesting in this context.

Two words, stimulus package. Some where around a Trillion dollars this year worth of stimulus package. That's why China is still chugging along. That construction is government financed.

When the United States has millions of people with almost no shelter or food, then I might believe that China has a stronger country. Until then.....fark China.

Crosshair:
FAIL, the Chinese are Communist in name only. There are only a few industries that the gov has a hand in and those are mainly the coal and steel industries.

It's easier to go into business in China than in the US. They are more capitalist than we are. The reason they are doing so much better is because the government is NOT involved in trying to fix the economy.

The one area where they are involved is with the currency peg and this is creating problems in China. Eventually the Chinese are going to have to drop the peg and let the US dollar fall because propping it up is creating bubbles in their economy as we are seeing.

You missed one huge industry that they exclusively control: Banking. Anyone looking at China's financials, which include their big four banks, is starting to get extremely nervous.

Their stimulus program wasn't in any way like ours. The US stimulus was essentially the Government Writing a check that they financed on debt against future taxes. Dumb for a lot of reasons but not an existential threat. China's stimulus program was nothing more than a promise of over $500 billion in loans for various projects. Where it gets stupid is the fact that they just forced the banks to loan, which is
possible because they are state controlled. This has set in motion the conditions necessary for a financial collapse the likes of which has never been seen.

If this wasn't so important, this would actually be a real cool experiment. How long can the Chinese Government keep up the charade? What portion of the Chinese Economy is actually real? What is going to happen to US-Sino economic relations when their bank's collapse? Will they try and blame their troubles on a failed experiment in American Capitalism as you are seeing in other struggling developing nations? What will happen to the dollar as they try and liquidate all of the Gold they have been grabbing?

/Too Many Questions

Apik0r0s: Crosshair: FAIL, the Chinese are Communist in name only. There are only a few industries that the gov has a hand in and those are mainly the coal and steel industries.


Bullshiat. Chinese business is filled with PLA officers, who often refer to each other by their rank in the army rather than their position in business. They view this as economic war with us, not a trade relationship. They despise the roundeye, Americans in particular, and have been brainwashed since birth to do so. They seek to destroy us and we keep hoping they will suddenly turn into Australia.

There will be war, hopefully sooner than later - put the Chicom Conspiracy where it belongs: under 3 ft of radioactive rubble.

/done business there

Apik0r0s, you're my favorite racist, xenophobic Fark personality. Keep on exposing that Chicom/Zionist/Russkie new world order. You've got a good thing going here.

make me some tea: My friend who is currently doing business there would disagree with you. While I might agree that many of them are giving American businessmen the red carpet treatment in order to learn better how we do things and to emulate those things that make us so successful, I don't believe there's a concerted effort to destroy us, and neither does he. There is no advantage to that.

He's been doing business with China for several years now and has profited nicely from his efforts, and so have his Chinese counterparts. Seems rather symbiotic to me.



I've spent my time there myself, and gotten to know many Chinese. They are farking brainwashed with Sino-centric, racist and nationalistic ideas to the point of stupidity, which makes them very dangerous. One of the country's leading metallurgists, a Col. in the PLA operating his own factory on their subsidy, a man otherwise intelligent and educated; looked me square in the eye and insisted that the US never went to the moon and that I should learn to see through the lies that my government has fed me. He also told me the same thing many of them have told me: that the corrupt Western nations will fall and be replaced by the just and enlightened Chinese system. They salivate at the thought.

Mention that they killed all the schoolteachers during their Great Leap Forward and they look at you like you've sprouted horns. They have been systematically programmed by the Party and her schools to believe some crazy shiat, and to see China as the leader in the world, who is destined to sweep all others aside someday and unite the world under the Chicom system. It's farking scary.

Some other gems I have heard from Chicom bots:

"America only has fried chicken because we lack creativity, whereas China has many forms of chicken. " This from an arrogant asshole who brought his wife to the US so she could have her baby here. Another great and loyal "American" in the making, I am sure.

"China does the manufacturing for the US now because the US lacks the technology to produce the things which China produces." This from a Col. running a prison labor factory making plastic packaging - featuring such high tech processes as little old shoeless ladies roughing out dies with hammers and 12 year old "criminals" reaching into forming machines every 15 seconds to remove formed sheets, if they stay in there too long they lose their arms. If they stop the machine, they catch hell from their slave masters.

"Japan is the enemy of the entire world and Koreans exist because Japanese mated with dogs long ago."

These people are evil. Their "education" has programmed them thusly.

When I realized that they see us as the enemy and our trade relationship as "economic war", I made it my business to steer my clients to anywhere BUT China, which isn't that hard if they've done business there already and grown disatisfied with crappy product, bait and switch schemes and all of the other crap that goes along with doing business with them.

Your buddy is either ignorant of the reality, or willing to sell out America for a quick buck.

What recession? COMMUNIST China's economic growth explodes. Make of that what Yuan


and their growing their military at ~15%/year.

put that in your pipe, freedom lovers.

and we do lots of business with Communist China too.


after all those american soldier died to keep communism at bay, and then we turn around and do business with them.

too pathetic.

Hey Apik0r0s, can you hook me up with some of that good shiat?

Apik0r0s had been f**ked and his head kicked by a donkey in China so that's why he's spreading racist crap here.

im living in, and doing business in china right now, so obviously im getting a kick out of your replies...

there is just alot of sub intelligent people here, no conspiracy. most people here couldnt plan thier way out of a wet paper bag. its comical.