Approves


/hot

He then stole their pogo stick. Bastard.

WTFJESUSPADLOL

Well, that destroys my story about Chewbacca coming over to my house party and stealing my fire extinguisher.

I have a special program we could get the kids into.

What's that? You want some of my Cheez-It's?

Damn...the dude really let himself go.

Crabman??

Carpenters know how to wield 2x4's. Just be glad he didn't have his hammer on him.

eqtworld: Unless you know a few 2000+ year old jews

I was just stuck in traffic behind one.

Great headline.

BeefyT: Approves


/hot

one and done.

FTA:

A local man, who police said spent a portion of his morning reading the Bible before running into the street screaming he was "the son of Jesus" and beating several people with a 2-by-4, is to be arraigned this morning in Superior Court in Manchester.

Police suspect Ruben Vasquez Jr., 24, was "on something" as he allegedly assaulted two men and two children, age 1 and 3, and a police officer.

"On something"? You don't say...

Vasquez, of 47 Holl St., was charged with two counts of risk of injury to a minor, four counts of second-degree assault, assault on a police officer, criminal trespass, third-degree criminal mischief, interfering with police, disorderly conduct and attempted first-degree assault


...mopery, provoking, high treason, being a smart guy, listening to classical music, and so on.

He didn't say he was Jesus, just Jesus's son... Ruben.

You don't have to worry 'cause takin' care of business is his name.

Looks like some stray bits of paint on his chin. Just sayin'.

WWJSD?

looks more like the sun of buckwheat..

HotWingConspiracy

Carpenters know how to wield 2x4's. Just be glad he didn't have his hammer on him.


You nailed it.


(Tell me you saw that one coming. Hope I didn't screw it up)

eqtworld: He's not coming back, he gave a time limit for his return. Unless you know a few 2000+ year old jews...

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

You do realize this was as recorded by members following him who were formerly of an apocalyptic sect?

Well, he is the right skin color.

Jesus was not White!

JayR30: You do realize this was as recorded by members following him who were formerly of an apocalyptic sect?

Judean People's Front?

Jesus is Coming.
look busy

Jesus had a son?

Where was Biff?

/obscure?

Raharu: Well, he is the right skin color.

Jesus was not White!

What next? You gonna say he wasn't American and didn't speak English???

Jesus Christ.

Jesus WAS my co-pilot.
but we crashed in the Andes
and I had to eat him.

This turned out better than the Taiping Rebellion, at least.

eqtworld: Unless you know a few 2000+ year old jews...

First headline I'd actually wear on a shirt.

/Send the born again nut jobs at work into a frenzy.

Jesus Whipped



hotlinky

eqtworld: He's not coming back, he gave a time limit for his return. Unless you know a few 2000+ year old jews...

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

-Jesus

Matthew 16:27-28



???

Raharu: Well, he is the right skin color.

Jesus was not White!


Princeton:
Oh, Christ do I feel good.

Gary Coleman:
Now there was a fine upstanding black man!

Princeton:
Who?

Gary Coleman:
Jesus Christ.

Kate Monster:
But, Gary, Jesus was white.

Gary Coleman:
No, Jesus was black.

Kate Monster:
No, Jesus was white.

Gary Coleman:
No, I'm pretty sure that Jesus was black-

Princeton:
Guys, guys...Jesus was Jewish!

Son of Jesus is not the same as Jesus. Besides, Jesus was clearly on his paper route.

Jesus, Tap Dancing, Christ

Man, they're gonna crucify him in court!

Alyna_jf: Jesus Christ.

and son!

god works in mysterious ways

That's cool, I expected returning Jesus to be a pervert.

Were_Outta_Bort_License_Plates: JayR30: You do realize this was as recorded by members following him who were formerly of an apocalyptic sect?

Judean People's Front?

No, the People's Front of Judea!

Spare the 2x4, spoil the child?

salvador.hardin: Jesus is Coming.
look busy

Simple, yet funny... I like it.

burndtdan: eqtworld: Unless you know a few 2000+ year old jews...

I really don't like you right now.

Were_Outta_Bort_License_Plates: JayR30: You do realize this was as recorded by members following him who were formerly of an apocalyptic sect?

Judean People's Front?

No it was the People's Front of Judea...

eqtworld: He's not coming back, he gave a time limit for his return. Unless you know a few 2000+ year old jews...

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

-Jesus

Matthew 16:27-28

Seriously? Tell me the story about Lot farking his daughters, I always liked that one.

spent a portion of his morning reading the Bible before running into the street screaming he was "the son of Jesus" and beating several people

Religion of Peace, indeed.

Ha, little off topic but made me think of this:

You think Jesus was a good carpenter? People coulda been, "good thing that messiah thing worked out. Built a shed for my cousin, what a piece of crap"....or something like that.

I think Connecticut is bucking for it's own tag. Yesterday it was "Vicious Chickens" today the Son of Jesus beats kids with a board.

/CT needs a new slogan, like "Connecticut, so far from Florida, yet so close"

hey crab man




/hot like a bushel of steamed blue crabs

He's occupied
http://tinyurl.com/n6g57g
(copy and paste)

So he's the son of Jesus, eh? Makes sense since was was smacking people in the head with only half a cross.

/When he prays, does he say "My Grandfather, who art in heaven..."?

Thats Jesus' "for"gotten son, Craig Christ

That's "Jesus Wept"...

gorgor: He's occupied
http://tinyurl.com/n6g57g
(copy and paste)

*choke* *guffaw*

/who you gonna' call?

gorgor: He's occupied
http://tinyurl.com/n6g57g
(copy and paste)

That always makes me laugh.

WWTSOJD?

Son of Jesus came smiting people with a 2 x 4. Hacksaw Jim Duggan smote people with a 2 x 4 as well. WWE HQ is in CT. Coincidence? I think not.

'E's not the Messiah, 'e's a very naughty boy!

There shall in that time be rumors of things going astray, erm, and there shall be a great confusion as to where things really are, and nobody will really know where lieth those little things with the sort of raffia-work base, that has an attachment. At that time, a friend shall lose his friend's hammer, and the young shall not know where lieth the things possessed by their fathers that their fathers put there only just the night before, about eight O'clock.

Well thank God. Little heathens prolly had it coming. 'Spare the 2-by-4' and all...

He was up there on a nice cross, got angry, broke it and started attacking people with a piece of it.

Temper, temper.

eqtworld: He's not coming back, he gave a time limit for his return. Unless you know a few 2000+ year old jews...

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

-Jesus

Matthew 16:27-28

Ever played Vampire: The Masquerade?.



/Ok, that's not Caine
//Hot as a Toreador stripper

fatty fatty, 2x4, can't fit through the kitchen door.

He sought revenge from his childhood days.

FlyingJellyAttackConfectionary: That's "Jesus Wept"...

I know but whipped sounded more appropriate for the story.

Zeppelininthesky

Were_Outta_Bort_License_Plates: JayR30: You do realize this was as recorded by members following him who were formerly of an apocalyptic sect?

Judean People's Front?

No, the People's Front of Judea!


Splitters!

eqtworld: He's not coming back, he gave a time limit for his return. Unless you know a few 2000+ year old jews...

I found one! (new window)

eqtworld: He's not coming back, he gave a time limit for his return. Unless you know a few 2000+ year old jews...

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

-Jesus

Matthew 16:27-28


Hmm...perhaps we missed him.
Ya know the whole rapture thing could've happened a while ago..
/just saying

Naked, he should have been naked. That would have made for a much FARKier headline. Naked Man is my favorite super hero.

When this says "suffer the little children," he really means it!

Ponzholio: He didn't say he was Jesus, just Jesus's son... Ruben.

Ruben Christ just doesn't have that special ring to it, though.

/neither does Craig Christ.

eqtworld: He's not coming back, he gave a time limit for his return. Unless you know a few 2000+ year old jews...

Is Abe Vigoda Jewish? Just sayin...

CygnusDarius: eqtworld: He's not coming back, he gave a time limit for his return. Unless you know a few 2000+ year old jews...

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

-Jesus

Matthew 16:27-28

Ever played Vampire: The Masquerade?.



/Ok, that's not Caine
//Hot as a Toreador stripper

Oh no you did not!

//I miss my Gangrel

With an attitude like that, it's no wonder that carpenter gig didn't work out so well for him...

It does raise an interesting question, though: Who would Jesus beat?

/ You know, if he had a 2-by-4
// And wasn't afraid to use it

In related news, Cthulhu came ashore today and was charged with 8 counts of indecent exposure. Police say ritualistic psilocybin may have been a factor.

Whoah.
Ron Glass has really let himself go.

Little bastards, he was probably just trying to teach them golf.

vudukungfu: Whoah.
Ron Glass has really let himself go.

Venus Flytrap attacks children with 2x4?

Colonel_Debugger: hey crab man

/hot like a bushel of steamed blue crabs

His hair is PacMan. Your argument is invalid and scared of ghosts.

Gonna beat my wife.

obscure?

Iowan73: Spare the 2x4, spoil the child?

More like suffer the little children to come unto me ... So I can wap them with this 2x4

BorgiaGinz: Raharu: Well, he is the right skin color.

Jesus was not White!


Princeton:
Oh, Christ do I feel good.

Gary Coleman:
Now there was a fine upstanding black man!

Princeton:
Who?

Gary Coleman:
Jesus Christ.

Kate Monster:
But, Gary, Jesus was white.

Gary Coleman:
No, Jesus was black.

Kate Monster:
No, Jesus was white.

Gary Coleman:
No, I'm pretty sure that Jesus was black-

Princeton:
Guys, guys...Jesus was Jewish!

So was Sammy Davis Jr.

Huh... not only am I in CT, but I'm also right now watching that whole "anti-christ" program on the History Channel.

eqtworld: He's not coming back, he gave a time limit for his return. Unless you know a few 2000+ year old jews...

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

-Jesus

Matthew 16:27-28

Yep. It sure says that. Read the next chapter, Matthew 17:1-9. They saw it!

And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
And when the disciples heard [it], they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead

RoxtarRyan: Huh... not only am I in CT, but I'm also right now watching that whole "anti-christ" program on the History Channel.

*Heh*

I'm not really 'anti-christ', I just find religious types kind of off-putting.

eqtworld: He's not coming back, he gave a time limit for his return. Unless you know a few 2000+ year old jews...

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

-Jesus

Matthew 16:27-28
16:28 Shall not taste death, till they see the Son of man. The reference is not to his final coming to judge the world, but to his spiritual coming to establish his kingdom. This was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. Mark shows the meaning by substituting, Till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power (Mr 9:1). The coming of the Son of man in his kingdom means, therefore, the same as the kingdom of God come with power. Compare Ac 1:8 Lu 24:49. The kingdom came with power on the day of Pentecost (Ac 2:1).

looks way too much like the guy who gets to bang the hot chick on my name is earl

/manchester born and raised ftw

Englebert Slaptyback: Zeppelininthesky

Were_Outta_Bort_License_Plates: JayR30: You do realize this was as recorded by members following him who were formerly of an apocalyptic sect?

Judean People's Front?

No, the People's Front of Judea!


Splitters!

You're all wrong, it's the People's Popular Front... Splitters!

Did he put that "2-by-4" in his 4-by-4 truck next to the 6-by-6 joist?

/2x4
//2x farking 4
///They are actually 1.5x3.5 though
////I got wood

Morton_toes: vudukungfu: Whoah.
Ron Glass has really let himself go.

Venus Flytrap attacks children with 2x4?

You're thinking of Tim Reid.

smoky2010: I think Connecticut is bucking for it's own tag. Yesterday it was "Vicious Chickens" today the Son of Jesus beats kids with a board.

/CT needs a new slogan, like "Connecticut, so far from Florida, yet so close"

Seriously. Came here to say this. Or maybe "All the fail of Florida in approximately 8% of the space"?

word

ctobio: Son of Jesus came smiting people with a 2 x 4. Hacksaw Jim Duggan smote people with a 2 x 4 as well. WWE HQ is in CT. Coincidence? I think not.

It took this long for someone to bring up the obvious.

MysticSavage: Morton_toes: vudukungfu: Whoah.
Ron Glass has really let himself go.

Venus Flytrap attacks children with 2x4?

You're thinking of Tim Reid.

Wow, Tim Reid has really let himself go.

He's Coming!!!
http://tinyurl.com/mcprc7
(copy and paste, NSFW)

Slightly off-topic: When I was little, I always thought my dad was saying "Tuba for". Like, "I need to get a tuba for." And I would wonder what the Old Man was up to, since he never stated the purpose that he needed a "tuba for".

Vertiaset: "SOME Christians, a small minority of Evangelicals, believe this. The rest of the TWO BILLION Christians, do not."

Wait, you speak for two billion Christians? They don't believe Jesus will return? They don't believe in Heaven?

Why don't you, Vertias, king of all Christians, tell me what they believe.

Control_this: spent a portion of his morning reading the Bible before running into the street screaming he was "the son of Jesus" and beating several people

Religion of Peace, indeed.

I came here for the obligatory comment about how this douchebag reflects on the entire religion.

MBooda: Little bastards, he was probably just trying to teach them golf.

I'll see your Jesus dry humping a girl, and raise you a Jesus getting head from a boy!

That'll put the fear of God in 'em.

I'm off to buy some Orville Rednbacher stock berfore this gets really going...

I was most assuredly *NOT* there...

//Checks link

...apparently, the pool is closed...

...goddammmitsomuch...

So there was only one thing that I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long...

Be Patient
http://tinyurl.com/m8a3q4
(copy and paste)

What does one wear to an auto de fe?

eqtworld: jehovahs witness protection: I have a special program we could get the kids into.
[insipid painting]

Oh, great. We go to heaven just to be the biatch.

Morton_toes: RoxtarRyan: Huh... not only am I in CT, but I'm also right now watching that whole "anti-christ" program on the History Channel.

*Heh*

I'm not really 'anti-christ', I just find religious types kind of off-putting.

I'm watching this shiat drinking beer and eating nachos. As lazy as it sounds, I feel better about myself. See, they are interviewing people who think Katrina was a sign of the endtimes and that it was brought about by using a weather control device and how magic can protect people by forcing the gods to look after them. *sigh*...

My roommate just looks at me and says "dude.. these people are farking dumb."

No truer words have been spoken today.

Morton_toes: I'm off to buy some Orville Rednbacher stock berfore this gets really going...

APPROVES
http://tinyurl.com/l28g3n
(copy and paste, NSFW)

Korovyov: FTA:

Police suspect Ruben Vasquez Jr., 24, was "on something" as he allegedly assaulted two men and two children, age 1 and 3, and a police officer.

"On something"? You don't say...

Unless he had just smoked a speedball of jimson weed, salvia and PCP, what you have here is a classic case of schizophrenia. That anyone would automatically assume he was "on something" says as much about their mentality as it does about his.

Found this earlier today, think it's kinda cool:

vertiaset: Zamboro

(Silly little stock atheist image depicting the rapture)

SOME Christians, a small minority of Evangelicals, believe this. The rest of the TWO BILLION Christians, do not.

Get it you ignorant atheist asshat?

Are you one of those "I only believe some of my miracle book" guys. You don't get to pick and choose your fairy tales just to suit a particular century. It is either true or a load of crap, and if you read this tripe, the crap side is winning.

JayR30: eqtworld: He's not coming back, he gave a time limit for his return. Unless you know a few 2000+ year old jews...

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

You do realize this was as recorded by members following him who were formerly of an apocalyptic sect?

Is the Bible true or not? Doesn't matter who wrote what down if the Book is true and without error.

red5ish: What does one wear to an auto de fe?

Fender skirts and a bonnet?

Let those of you without wood cast the first stone.

phlegmmo: Let those of you without wood cast the first stone.

*I'm out*

"...and I feel just like Jesus' son"

/Heroin -- it is a helluva drug.
//better not be obscure on Fark

subby:

For all you folks that have been waiting for Jesus to return, he's in Connecticut beating children with a 2-by-4



Son Of Jesus...Son Of...

/although, that *just* doesn't have the same effect as Son Of A B...

Ed Grubermann: JayR30: eqtworld: He's not coming back, he gave a time limit for his return. Unless you know a few 2000+ year old jews...

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

You do realize this was as recorded by members following him who were formerly of an apocalyptic sect?

Is the Bible true or not? Doesn't matter who wrote what down if the Book is true and without error.

Way to give him a boot to the head. So few novices get to experience so much Tae Kwan Leap so soon.

Okay, here's version 2.0, hope it's more to your liking!

vertiaset: Zamboro

(Silly little stock atheist image depicting the rapture)

SOME Christians, a small minority of Evangelicals, believe this. The rest of the TWO BILLION Christians, do not.

Get it you ignorant atheist asshat?

Man, you Christians guys are the ones who appear to believe they (some) are going to be bodily sucked up to heaven...

So minor a bunch, in fact, that you appear to control policy in the US...

He looks like the son of Latonya.

maxwellhauser: Where was Biff?

/obscure?

Don't worry - I got it. One of the best books of the past 10 years.

/his name was Josh

aagrajag: vertiaset: Zamboro

(Silly little stock atheist image depicting the rapture)

SOME Christians, a small minority of Evangelicals, believe this. The rest of the TWO BILLION Christians, do not.

Get it you ignorant atheist asshat?

Man, you Christians guys are the ones who appear to believe they (some) are going to be bodily sucked up to heaven...

So minor a bunch, in fact, that you appear to control policy in the US...





That said...GTFO and GBTW

/and DIAF

eqtworld: He's not coming back, he gave a time limit for his return. Unless you know a few 2000+ year old jews...

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

-Jesus

Matthew 16:27-28

/The More You Know...

vertiaset: Zamboro

(Silly little stock atheist image depicting the rapture)

SOME Christians, a small minority of Evangelicals, believe this. The rest of the TWO BILLION Christians, do not.

Get it you ignorant atheist asshat?

sounds like you got sand in your vagible

vertiaset: Zamboro

Vertiaset: "SOME Christians, a small minority of Evangelicals, believe this. The rest of the TWO BILLION Christians, do not."

Wait, you speak for two billion Christians? They don't believe Jesus will return? They don't believe in Heaven?

Why don't you, Vertias, king of all Christians, tell me what they believe.

I always suspected that you were entirely ignorant of Christianity and relied upon your cut and paste skills and bookmarked atheist blogs to form your "arguments". Thank you for admitting it. Christians are a diverse group and within each group, individuals believe as their consciences dictate. You, like all fundamentalists see only black and white with no shades of gray. You see your perceived "enemy" as a monolithic entity with no room for individual thought or conscience. Like all fundies, you are intolerant of others who may disagree with you and your mind is firmly closed.

In addition, you, as is also the case with fundamentalists of all stripes, have convinced yourself that you have a direct pipeline to the "Truth", that your particular brand of snake oil is the only true brew.

You are an unintentional caricature of the very "fundies" you like to mock. This makes you a figure of ridicule.

What makes you a figure of ridicule, is believing in fairy tales. Don't you realize most kids accept the fact Santa isn't real by the time they're about, oh I dunno, 8 or 10?

vertiaset: Zamboro

(Silly little stock atheist image depicting the rapture)

You're so cute. I've seen enough "inspirational" art to be pretty sure that was the work of a believer. But you keep on blaming us bitter, angry, God-hating atheists if it makes you feel better.

I'm actually of the opinion that Jesus never existed. He's completely invented. A myth. Christians just don't like to admit that Jesus is on exactly the same level as Horus or Zeus.

/Open to the idea of debate.
//But real debate. Not internet debate.

I love this headline

Zombie Jesus wants you to turn the other cheek--so he can finish eating your face.

vertiaset: Zamboro

Vertiaset: "SOME Christians, a small minority of Evangelicals, believe this. The rest of the TWO BILLION Christians, do not."

Wait, you speak for two billion Christians? They don't believe Jesus will return? They don't believe in Heaven?

Why don't you, Vertias, king of all Christians, tell me what they believe.

I always suspected that you were entirely ignorant of Christianity and relied upon your cut and paste skills and bookmarked atheist blogs to form your "arguments". Thank you for admitting it. Christians are a diverse group and within each group, individuals believe as their consciences dictate. You, like all fundamentalists see only black and white with no shades of gray. You see your perceived "enemy" as a monolithic entity with no room for individual thought or conscience. Like all fundies, you are intolerant of others who may disagree with you and your mind is firmly closed.

In addition, you, as is also the case with fundamentalists of all stripes, have convinced yourself that you have a direct pipeline to the "Truth", that your particular brand of snake oil is the only true brew.

You are an unintentional caricature of the very "fundies" you like to mock. This makes you a figure of ridicule.

Yes, demanding evidence for the extraordinary claim of religion is way out of line.

Which flavour, then:

...the "Believe, and go to heaven irrespective of your crimes"?
...the "Elect"?
...repent on your deathbed, nevermind your atrocities?
...the "confess"?

I know Christians; that's why I am done with them.

Englebert Slaptyback: HotWingConspiracy

Carpenters know how to wield 2x4's. Just be glad he didn't have his hammer on him.


You nailed it.


(Tell me you saw that one coming. Hope I didn't screw it up)

I didn't, but thank you.

The veal was great.

kb7rky: aagrajag: vertiaset: Zamboro

(Silly little stock atheist image depicting the rapture)

SOME Christians, a small minority of Evangelicals, believe this. The rest of the TWO BILLION Christians, do not.

Get it you ignorant atheist asshat?

Man, you Christians guys are the ones who appear to believe they (some) are going to be bodily sucked up to heaven...

So minor a bunch, in fact, that you appear to control policy in the US...

That said...GTFO and GBTW

/and DIAF

Eh?

What is the "Troll" designation" for, exactly? Never been called that before...

vertiaset: Zamboro

(Silly little stock atheist image depicting the rapture)

SOME Christians, a small minority of Evangelicals, believe this. The rest of the TWO BILLION Christians, do not.

Get it you ignorant atheist asshat?

How do ya call yourself a Christian if you do not believe in the rapture? Not saying that all Christians believe Jesus will open a hole in the sky and suck folks up as depicted in the picture, but the Rapture is in the bible, claiming the rapture is exclusively Evangelic is, well, Ignorant.

Up next, let's talk about turning the other cheek, is that what you did when you called somebody an Ignorant Asshat? Way to be Christian!

How come they didn't taser him? I though that was a perfectly appropriate situation.

King Wicker: I'm actually of the opinion that Jesus never existed. He's completely invented. A myth. Christians just don't like to admit that Jesus is on exactly the same level as Horus or Zeus.
i>


Or the tooth fairy, santa claus, that paul bunyon created the great lakes, or that when it thunders, god is clapping his hands.

yeah, makes perfect sense. people have been coming up with myth's to explain what is unexplainable to them. it makes people feel comfortable, and less out of control, in a world whose environment is (at least up until recently) very hard to control.

When did he leave Chicago?

/this Halloween I'm going as Jesus 'tap dancing' Christ

aagrajag: What is the "Troll" designation" for, exactly? Never been called that before...

Well Teh Googles is hard.

And I do find it hard to buy that it would have been your first, folks throw the term arround as if it was going out of style.

Usualy most folks using the term are simply saying they disagree,regardless if the other poster was actually (Trolling) or not.

Spare the child, spoil the rod.

I knows it's true cause the Bible tells me so.

/of god
//hot like sun

(S)He Wants Revenge.

CapitolG: aagrajag: What is the "Troll" designation" for, exactly? Never been called that before...

Well Teh Googles is hard.

And I do find it hard to buy that it would have been your first, folks throw the term arround as if it was going out of style.

Usualy most folks using the term are simply saying they disagree,regardless if the other poster was actually (Trolling) or not.

I know what the word means, genius, I'm just not quite certain why I've earned the designation.

vertiaset: SOME Christians, a small minority of Evangelicals, believe this. The rest of the TWO BILLION Christians, do not.

Get it you ignorant atheist asshat?

Newsflash you fundie twatwaffle, there are nowhere near two billion christians, and that is what it says in their little book of bronze age mythology, so if they DON'T believe that crap, they're heathens.

Nice job Zamboro. Hilarious.
Get it?

Now THIS is why I worship Jesus.

vertiaset: I always suspected that you were entirely ignorant of Christianity and relied upon your cut and paste skills and bookmarked atheist blogs to form your "arguments".

This may come as a surprise to you, but most atheists grew up in religious families. Most even went to church for years. Very few atheists grew up never being in the church.

CapitolG: the Rapture is in the bible

[citation needed] Chapter/verses?

/X-tian
//Don't believe in the Rapture

obzerver: Did he put that "2-by-4" in his 4-by-4 truck next to the 6-by-6 joist?

/2x4
//2x farking 4
///They are actually 1.5x3.5 though
////I got wood

You probably know this but that's because it starts at 2" x 4" (or did historically) and the planing brought it down to the measurements. All wood sizes are given in the pre-planed stage AFAIK. I suppose this one could have been rough cut though and been a true 2x4...

I have my doubts as to it starting at 2" x 4" these days. It would seem to me that we've probably gotten pretty good at maintaining kilns and planing wood and we've also been pretty adept at cutting costs so finding out that they're really starting with a smaller piece and then shaving only 1/8" off per side would not surprise me.

*looks at pic in article*

Wow, Todd Bridges has really let himself go.


/whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Jesus?

Crewmannumber6: When did he leave Chicago?

/this Halloween I'm going as Jesus 'tap dancing' Christ

If you can somehow incorporate a cracker to be dancing on, that would be the best :)


I'm going as the Goblin King from the Labyrinth

Lenny Kravitz?


Aw'right kiddies, I've got a 2x4, I've got 'ta, got 'ta know: are you gonna' go my way?

maxwellhauser....

Biff was still trying to figure out how to fit into that wine amphora.

/hot like Joy's yin-yang poison

aagrajag: I know what the word means, genius

Classy!

Guess you were trying to Troll after all, And here I was trying to defend ya.....

boobsrgood: vertiaset: SOME Christians, a small minority of Evangelicals, believe this. The rest of the TWO BILLION Christians, do not.

Get it you ignorant atheist asshat?

Newsflash you fundie twatwaffle, there are nowhere near two billion christians, and that is what it says in their little book of bronze age mythology, so if they DON'T believe that crap, they're heathens.

Nice job Zamboro. Hilarious.
Get it?

Don't worry, Vertiaset, most people here think as you...

...we're all just Zamboro's alts... yes, the whole site! All those who disagree with you...

Vertiaset may be an established "athiests are the true fundies," 'tard, but he does raise an interesting question.

How many christians believe in The Rapture™?

Actually, boobsrgood, the "official estimate" of Christians worldwide would be 2.1 billion.

/TMYK

CrazyCracka420: [Pic: I suck ...]

AikiHawkeye: CapitolG: the Rapture is in the bible

[citation needed] Chapter/verses?

/X-tian
//Don't believe in the Rapture

Go get Big Book of Mythology, and read Revelations 4:1, 3:10. Corinthians 15:51-52. Thessalonians 4:16-17.

Amongst others.

CapitolG: aagrajag: I know what the word means, genius

Classy!

Guess you were trying to Troll after all, And here I was trying to defend ya.....

Ah. Sorry...

//Drunk

For many, this is Christianity:

Fritriac: CrazyCracka420: [Pic: I suck ...]

LOL nice

AikiHawkeye: CapitolG: the Rapture is in the bible

[citation needed] Chapter/verses?

/X-tian
//Don't believe in the Rapture


John 14:1-3 - "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

Revelation 3:10 - " Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth."

Thessalonians 4: 16-17 - "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

Gyrfalcon

Englebert Slaptyback: HotWingConspiracy

Carpenters know how to wield 2x4's. Just be glad he didn't have his hammer on him.


You nailed it.


(Tell me you saw that one coming. Hope I didn't screw it up)


I didn't, but thank you.

The veal was great.


Glad to hear it - otherwise I'd have felt like a tool.

:-)

What part of this is wrong?

vertiaset: Fundie atheists like to paint all believers as young earth creationists, evangelical zealots or Christians of the "God said it, I believe it and that settles it" bumper sticker variety. Similarly, all Muslims are wild eyed militants just waiting to crash an airplane into your favorite tourist attraction.

The reality of course is much more complex. Individuals vary to a great degree in background, education and intelligence. Our understanding of man and his position in the universe within the framework of belief, evolves as we evolve as individuals. Many Christians do firmly believe in heaven and hell, in the virgin birth and the resurrection. Many others, such as myself, have little use for the miracle stories of the Bible and focus on the moral teachings of Christ.

I am of the belief that the miracle stories were grafted on to the teachings of Jesus at a later date. In any case, walking on water, raising the dead or turning water into wine are just so much window dressing for the real message of Jesus which was as simple as it was beautiful. Love one another. Forgive your enemies. Share what you have. The purpose of the law is to serve the interests of mankind not the other way around. You may know God individually and without the need for priests or temples and above all, live a life of righteousness.

If you get your understanding of Christian theology exclusively from Jack Chick tracts or Fark threads, you cannot expect your criticisms to be taken very seriously by anyone of education or intelligence.

If you want to live by the teachings, fine. I respect that. You can take a message away from something and live by that. But the Christian church bases itself on the fact that they think Jesus was a real guy and there's a clean line of succession from him to the current pope. Ignoring all the anti-popes and such during the medieval era, there's still the fact that Jesus never existed. He's as real as Red Riding Hood. The Gospels can't give a clear time and place of birth, which is weird considering they were supposed to be his closest friends and the details of his birth, death and resurrection seem to be tailored to absorb pagan sun worshippers.

/"I am a false prophet. God is a superstition."

Jesus could be on Fark right now.



He lured kids to him with mints.

CrazyCracka420: Fritriac: CrazyCracka420: [Pic: I suck ...]

LOL nice

The gun Jesus would use...

1)Perhaps he is the Jesus of Suburbia?

2)How the hell did this turn into a VtM thread? Awesome.

3)Zombie Jesus is a colloquial reference to Easter, aka, Jesus rising from the dead.

vertias: "I always suspected that you were entirely ignorant of Christianity and relied upon your cut and paste skills and bookmarked atheist blogs to form your "arguments".

Cut and paste from bookmarked blogs? What the fark are you talking about? Specific examples, please. I might point out that my questions were rhetorical as I was a Christian for most of my life.

vertias: "Thank you for admitting it. Christians are a diverse group and within each group, individuals believe as their consciences dictate."

Christianity isn't a generic belief in a vaguely defined God, that's Deism. If someone doesn't believe certain central doctrines such as the resurrection, they cannot meet the criteria to be called a Christian.

vertias: "You, like all fundamentalists see only black and white with no shades of gray."

But I'm not a fundamentalist. That word has a specific definition and you're using it to bludgeon atheists knowing full well it's not applicable. Your hope is that in falsely equivocating atheists with Christian fundies you can present them both as extremes, and moderate Christianity as a more reasonable middle ground.

vertias: "You see your perceived "enemy" as a monolithic entity with no room for individual thought or conscience. Like all fundies, you are intolerant of others who may disagree with you and your mind is firmly closed."

There's the fundie accusation again. Do you think anyone with all of their marbles takes it seriously? Could I say "No, I do not think of Christians as a monolithic entity and acknowledge the variety of denominations and personal interpretations it encompasses while nonetheless asserting that a few central doctrines are essential to Christianity if that word is to mean anything"? Would you pay attention or would you plow right ahead pretending you'd never heard it, unashamedly putting words in my mouth?

vertias: "In addition, you, as is also the case with fundamentalists of all stripes, have convinced yourself that you have a direct pipeline to the "Truth", that your particular brand of snake oil is the only true brew."

So you believe science is "snake oil" and that there are other methodologies for sorting fact from fiction? By all means, share these alternatives with the rest of the class!

vertias: "You are an unintentional caricature of the very "fundies" you like to mock."

EVERYONE! LOOK HOW CLEVER VERTIAS IS! You see, what he's done here is to turn the tables on those mean 'ol atheists by....wait for it.....equating them to the very "fundies" they like to mock! Because atheists don't like fundies, you see? So the comparison will be offensive to them! I didn't get it at first either but once the simple brilliance dawned on me it was like a whole new page had turned in the annals of formal debate!

vertias: "This makes you a figure of ridicule."

Read all of the posts after our initial exchange. Look how many people are ridiculing you.

That's not the Jesus I took a bath with.....

http://www.datejesus.com/

John 12
14 And Jesus found a young ass and sat upon it

**picture deleted**

StilettosandSkills: Actually, boobsrgood, the "official estimate" of Christians worldwide would be 2.1 billion.

You know how I can tell where that number comes from? Because of all the shiat stuck to it.

Besides, Vertias is here to inform us that most of them do not believe what it says in the bible anyway, so there goes that estimate all to hell.

CygnusDarius:

Ever played Vampire: The Masquerade?.



/Ok, that's not Caine
//Hot as a Toreador stripper

Well, I know what my next VTM character is going to be beyond the germ-paranoid Malkavian.

/I miss my gaming group

vertiaset: Zamboro is a fundie, pure and simple.

OK what is your Real login? Your posts stink of socks......

is this a new personalty for the poster formly known as Czar?

Vertiaset Many Christians do firmly believe in heaven and hell, in the virgin birth and the resurrection. Many others, such as myself, have little use for the miracle stories of the Bible and focus on the moral teachings of Christ.

Hold on there, Tex; you don't get to rewrite 2,000 years of Christian theology just to suit your own prejudices. Despite doctrinal differences over the True Presence in the Eucharist, universal salvation vs. the Election of Saints, the nature of the Trinity, and so on, Christians of all denominations are united in belief in the Atonement and the Resurrection. St. Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians, Chapter 15, Verses 13-17
If there is no resurrection of the dead, then neither has Christ been raised.
And if Christ has not been raised, then empty (too) is our preaching; empty, too, your faith.
Then we are also false witnesses to God, because we testified against God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if in fact the dead are not raised.
For if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised,
and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins.

If you deny the remission of sins through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and His Resurrection, you cannot call yourself a Christian. That's THE central tenet of the Christian faith.

I am of the belief that the miracle stories were grafted on to the teachings of Jesus at a later date. In any case, walking on water, raising the dead or turning water into wine are just so much window dressing for the real message of Jesus which was as simple as it was beautiful. Love one another. Forgive your enemies. Share what you have. The purpose of the law is to serve the interests of mankind not the other way around. You may know God individually and without the need for priests or temples and above all, live a life of righteousness.

Thomas Jefferson beat you to it. What he didn't get is that Jesus's teachings aren't special; teachings of love and forgiveness are found in religious texts throughout the world. C. S. Lewis called this "the Tao", what he believed was God's imoprinting His natural law into human consciousness. Knowing the law is not a key to doing the law, according to Christian theology. A believer is justified through faith in Jesus Christ, not in frolicking in meadows.

JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST.

You guys are REALLY arguing about whether or not Christianity is legit.....

...... in a thread that started out as something we can all agree on? That someone claiming to be the SON OF JESUS is BEATING PEOPLE WITH A FARKING PLANK OF WOOD?

Not to play moderator, but y'all are batshiat.

/ Atheist
// Loves religious folks and atheists, if they're cool
/// Thinks the real problem are people who like to intellectually bludgeon each other. It's a personality disorder. Get help.

veedeevadeevoodee

Dynamite! FTW.

I had forgotten all about that.

Who Would Jesus Drub?

Elektrohed: You guys are REALLY arguing about whether or not Christianity is legit.....

NO, maybe you need to start looking harder, Folks are arguing about wether or not Christians are legit, With the whole pick and choose the parts I like outlook.

Elektrohed: ..... in a thread that started out as something we can all agree on? That someone claiming to be the SON OF JESUS is BEATING PEOPLE WITH A FARKING PLANK OF WOOD?

Sorry, I meant..... that the above "IS HILARIOUS!"

vertiaset: "Not all atheists are fundies. Fundamentalism is not solely a Christian phenomena. Fundamentalists share common characteristics regardless of the brand of snake oil they are selling."

Fundamentalist atheist is meaningless as atheism has no fundamentals. It's not an ideology, it's a binary descriptor. There exist several organizations serving the interests of atheist voters, perhaps you could derive some sort of slur from one of their names?

I understand that atheists are often jerks to you. You retalliate by misrepresenting them as fundies because you imagine this will cause them offense. You know it's inapplicable just as I do but you've become so embittered and combative that you don't care anymore so long as you can get in your jabs.

vertiaset: "These are:

Simplistic black or white thinking.
Intolerance to the point of aggressive hostility to view points of the others.
Insistence that their views are the only right views.
Closed minds.

This could apply to Christians, Muslims Atheists or Linux users. A fundie is a fundie. Zamboro is a fundie, pure and simple."

I don't meet any of those criteria, though. I've explained over and over and over that your perception of me is mistaken. I acknowledge the variety of beliefs Christianity encompasses, the variety of denominations and of personal interpretations. This statement contradicts everything you've said about me.

I understand full well that there are shades of grey involved. Many of my favorite fellow farkers are deists, pantheists and so on, they're all over the map. I'm familiar with the sophisticated theology favored by more liberal Christians and while it's an interesting philosophical exercise, until it's supported by evidence it's no more credible than six day creationism.

As for hostility to other views, why do you make your views out to be undeserving of hostility? You imply that I'm simply enraged by any disagreement with my position, but that isn't so. You're presenting wild claims without a shred of evidential support, that doesn't fly in formal debate, in research science, or in the courtroom. I'm ready to agree with you, all I'm waiting on is evidence. You'll have a legitimate position when it's supported by evidence and not before. That's not intolerance, it's critical thinking.

CapitolG: NO, maybe you need to start looking harder, Folks are arguing about wether or not Christians are legit, With the whole pick and choose the parts I like outlook

I think you're right and I'm right, there are about twelve different back and forths going on right now.

Just sayin', I settled the "pick and choose" thing with my friends when I was 14 on the frickin' playground.

Hypocrisy is a very meaningless word. I don't give a shiat how a person chooses to live their own life vs. their beliefs. Really, how does that impact me? All I care about is how they act toward other people.

Immature = Attacking people for what they believe.

And, since I didn't get in on the first part of the thread:

BeefyT FTW :)

vertiaset: "It is a fringe belief among Christians although there is no way of knowing how many people actually believe in the rapture it is certainly a small minority."

I've heard the same said of creationism. I hope you'd agree that a creationist is likely to believe in the rapture as well?

vertiaset: Fundie atheists like to paint all believers as young earth creationists, evangelical zealots or Christians of the "God said it, I believe it and that settles it" bumper sticker variety. Similarly, all Muslims are wild eyed militants just waiting to crash an airplane into your favorite tourist attraction.

The reality of course is much more complex. Individuals vary to a great degree in background, education and intelligence. Our understanding of man and his position in the universe within the framework of belief, evolves as we evolve as individuals. Many Christians do firmly believe in heaven and hell, in the virgin birth and the resurrection. Many others, such as myself, have little use for the miracle stories of the Bible and focus on the moral teachings of Christ.

I am of the belief that the miracle stories were grafted on to the teachings of Jesus at a later date. In any case, walking on water, raising the dead or turning water into wine are just so much window dressing for the real message of Jesus which was as simple as it was beautiful. Love one another. Forgive your enemies. Share what you have. The purpose of the law is to serve the interests of mankind not the other way around. You may know God individually and without the need for priests or temples and above all, live a life of righteousness.

If you get your understanding of Christian theology exclusively from Jack Chick tracts or Fark threads, you cannot expect your criticisms to be taken very seriously by anyone of education or intelligence.

Ahhhhhhhh, you're a cherry picker. You refine your delusion just enough so that you can throw out all the extremely ridiculous bits still hang onto the merely ludicrous parts that make you feel good about yourself.

Elektrohead: "Thinks the real problem are people who like to intellectually bludgeon each other. It's a personality disorder. Get help."

Yes, let's ban argument. How will good ideas supplant bad ones? How will progress be made? Well never mind all of that, so long as we can have some peace and quiet! Am I right, or am I right?

Zamboro: Yes, let's ban argument. How will good ideas supplant bad ones? How will progress be made? Well never mind all of that, so long as we can have some peace and quiet! Am I right, or am I right?

Lol.... no, obviously not. Not argument. But there are certain arguments that are productive:

- Whom should we elect president?

- What type of sandwich would I like?

- Is it wrong to kick a homeless person in the nuts?

.... and then certain arguments that are 100% subjective.

- What is in another person's brain, and would I feel good if that were in MY brain?

Just farking pointless.

I'm an atheist, myself, but at least I'm conversant with Christian history and theology, which is far more than Vertiaset can claim. Now if he were to say that there are serious variations between Biblical codices that could affect the validity of certain doctrines or that because we don't have the original holographs of the scriptures we can't be certain that modern-day beliefs were ever intended by the original authors, he might have a decent argument.

But to say that belief in the Atonement is optional for Christians is nuts. Despite the earlier disputes between competing schools of thought about the nature and mission of Jesus (a human who became God? a God who pretended to be human? An emanation of God who was fully divine but not equal to the Father? Both God and Man at the same time? Two wills or one
will?), the issue was settled by the Council of Nicea in 325.

vertiaset: [A fundie is characterized by ...]

Insistence that their views are the only right views.


Uh... Hum. Okay, let's think this through. Take several propositions:
1) There is no god. There is no afterlife.
2) There is exactly one god. He will someday send the Messiah to Earth to free his chosen people. You must follow the laws he set down to be saved from (hell? Oblivion? Help me Tatsuma, I'm fuzzy here.)
3) There is exactly one god. He long ago sent his his Messiah to Earth, and you must accept that to be saved from Hell.
4) There are a buttload of gods. You'll end up in the same afterlife no matter what you do, but you'll get a better seat if you're good.
5) There are a buttload of gods. You'll go to Hel if you die like a coward, or Valhalla if you fall in battle.
6) There are a buttload of gods, except they're all really one god. You will be reincarnated after death, though you may spend some time in a temporary heaven or hell, and the quality of your next life is determined by your actions in this one.
7) It's irrelevant whether there are zero or a million gods. You'll be reincarnated when you die, and that sucks. Eventually you can free yourself from this cycle of suck.


Now, take any one of those propositions. "Believe" it for the sake of argument. Now, take any other one and believe that also.

Congratulations, you're insane. So, by your measure, everyone is either a fundamentalist, believes nothing at all, or believes several things which directly contradict each other?

vertiaset: The "Rapture" is a belief, rejected by mainstream Christianity, but accepted by a minority of Evangelicals mostly in the United States that the "elect" will be transported bodily into heaven in the "end times". It is based upon, not any teachings of Christ


Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

You sure about that, are you?

CrazyCracka420: Crewmannumber6: When did he leave Chicago?

/this Halloween I'm going as Jesus 'tap dancing' Christ

If you can somehow incorporate a cracker to be dancing on, that would be the best :)


I'm going as the Goblin King from the Labyrinth

I have Johnny Cash on in the next room. Jesus is dancing to "Walk the Line" and I'm cleaning coffee off of the keyboard.

vertiaset: Zamboro

vertias: "I always suspected that you were entirely ignorant of Christianity and relied upon your cut and paste skills and bookmarked atheist blogs to form your "arguments".


Cut and paste from bookmarked blogs? What the fark are you talking about? Specific examples, please.

Many of your posts in various atheist threads are word for word, with sometimes small variation to your posts in other threads. Do you deny this? Moreover, I have called you out before on your knowledge of, not just the Bible and Christian theology, but on the writings of Dawkins and Dennett. It is clear that you have either not read them or just gleaned the rough outline from the writings of others. This is why I often make fun of you.

I might point out that my questions were rhetorical as I was a Christian for most of my life.

Yes, you have the small minded zealotry of the recently converted. This makes sense.

You're really not helping out your image with the ad hominem attacks.

Somebody fix my photoshop butchery

Elektrohead: "Lol.... no, obviously not. Not argument. But there are certain arguments that are productive:

- Whom should we elect president?

- What type of sandwich would I like?

- Is it wrong to kick a homeless person in the nuts?

.... and then certain arguments that are 100% subjective.

- What is in another person's brain, and would I feel good if that were in MY brain?"

I agree, but I don't think that the religion debate belongs in the latter category. Over the past ten years the number of "unaffiliated" rose from 8 to 15% nationwide, while the number of Christians dropped from 86% to 76%. The number of self identified atheists rose in every state over that same period. It was the only group to show growth in every state.

Believers may pretend to be immovable, but they have the same rational faculties as anyone else. They may refuse to budge during argument but evidently a great many research the matter privately and are disconvinced of their religious convictions. Fruitless though it may appear to the casual observer, the religious debate has been very productive indeed.

vertiaset: "Yes, you have the small minded zealotry of the recently converted. This makes sense."

Recently? I'm 25. It was my education in anthropology and neurobiology at a private Episcopalian academy that disconvinced me of my beliefs. I was 18 at the time.

vertiaset: "Many of your posts in various atheist threads are word for word, with sometimes small variation to your posts in other threads. Do you deny this?"

No, but it's not from blogs. They're posts from older threads. It's all stuff I wrote that I'd prefer not to write again.

vertiaset: "Moreover, I have called you out before on your knowledge of, not just the Bible and Christian theology, but on the writings of Dawkins and Dennett. It is clear that you have either not read them or just gleaned the rough outline from the writings of others. This is why I often make fun of you."

But you haven't "called me out". You've seized upon jokes and rhetorical questions, taking them literally in order to misrepresent my views, as you did in this thread. It's just pedantry.

vertiaset: "I don't attack everybody. I just don't like Zamboro. Not because he is an atheist but because he is an asshole."

I don't attack everyone either. I already directed you to the last thread I posted in where I had a long, productive and civil conversation with NEDM, who is a Christian. You're a vicious anti-atheist douchebag and you open fire on atheists in every thread you post in, in what sense is it out of line to oppose you?

It's an interesting concept to suggest that you either beleive all of the bible or you don't beleive in the bible at all.

I mean, the bible was written by man, who is not only imperfect, but is also biased, often with his own agenda.

There's also the argument that the bible was not meant to be interpreted in a literal sense, but expressed themes and stuff.

I'm not for or against, but it's interesting, especially when you factor-in stuff like "cherry-picked" religious quotations from either side of the argument.

For example, out of several recountings of the Jesus returning to life, only one makes mention of Jesus saying "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do." That same recounting also goes on to explain how all of the dead in that cemetery rose and walked through the streets of the city, and yet we never hear of that from the church, in fact sometimes you hear their emphasis is on the fact that only Jesus could rise from the dead.

Again.. I'm neither for nor against, because I have no evidence other than circumstantial stuff, supporting either side.

It's just interesting.

vertiaset: "See, you fundie atheists only see black and white. You cannot wrap your mind around the fact that many Christians understand the historical and political background of the writings which make up Christian theology."

Is that really the case, king wicker? Or has he put words in your mouth, as he put words in mine? Let everyone bear witness to his behavior.

vertiaset: "I am a "Cherry Picker" in the way that Thomas Jefferson was a cherry picker. You most modern Christians have minds which are open, we see more than just simple black and white. You might say we have evolved."

So you have evidence now?

vertiaset: "The story of faith in the West is a progression. Even within the Old Testament we see the development of the idea of "God" from the early tribal polytheism of Abraham i.e. Yahweh as the God of Israel who could combat and defeat the Gods of Egypt, a to the idea of a universal God in Isiah. Then we have this extended even further in the New Testament. The evolution of thought does not end there it progresses both in the Christian tradition, Islamic tradition and in the Rabbinical writings of Jewish philosophers and scholars to the modern age."

At what point during this evolution of the God idea was it tested? At what point were evolved forms it checked against reality in order to determine whether revised conceptions more accurately reflected reality than prior ones? That's how ideas evolve.

When it was discovered that God was not actually responsible for the weather, the Christian conception of god was changed so that it would no longer appear to conflict with the science of the day. When it was discovered that the Earth was not flat and had no firmament (as described in Hebrew cosmology) the Christian conception was further revised (after centuries of struggling against it) so as not to contradict the science of the day. When it was discovered that the Earth rotated about the sun rather than being at the center of the universe, after centuries of torture and suppression of those who advocated such heresy, the church relented and revised their conception of god so that it did not contradict the science of the day. So it was with evolution, abiogenesis and the big bang (which, though discovered by a priest, was discovered by way of science and is resisted intensely by many Christians even today).

This cannot be compared to the manner in which a theory is revised in light of new evidence, because at every stage of revision the new formulation is tested against the available evidence to make sure that it's better supported and offers more consistent predictive power than the prior revision. If you leave out that part, if all you're doing is changing your story every time someone finds a hole in it, you're not "evolving". You're shifting the goalposts in order to evade disproof. That's something I like to call "theological calvinball."

Dead-Guy: It's an interesting concept to suggest that you either beleive all of the bible or you don't beleive in the bible at all.

False Dilemma but don't blame these guys, in regards to the bible, Jesus started the whole thing:
"He who is not with me is against me" Matthew 12:30

Zamboro: Fruitless though it may appear to the casual observer, the religious debate has been very productive indeed.

I'm appealing to you because philosophically, I'm in your court.

Most Atheists become Atheists on their own. If you're going to convince someone of something, there are two ways psychology will allow you to do that:

1) Get 'em while they're young, and make it a debate while ideas are forming.

or

2) Publicly announce, like with the new ads on billboards, that allows people to feel more comfortable coming out of their shell.

Psychology is very stubborn in its dictates, and PEOPLE are very stubborn in their behavior. If you argue with them head-on about beliefs, they'll dig in and two things will result:

1) They'll hate you.

2) They'll become more convinced of their own opinion.

Admire your goals, of course, but arguing with similarly fierce intellects, head-on, is not the way to go.

/ Career is in grassroots organizing
// Know my shiat

Dead-Guy: "It's just interesting."

Certainly. And it's obvious that many portions of the Bible are meant to be taken as metaphor. But then it's clear what they are intended to metaphorically explain, and it's clear from the poetic way they're written that they aren't intended to be taken literally.

Genesis doesn't read like metaphor. It's written the same way the creation stories from all other religions are, as historical narrative. It could not have been a metaphorical explanation of the big bang, evolution and so on as the ancient Hebrew authors lived in a comparatively ignorant period and would have known nothing about them. Even if one chose to interpret that way, it has light existing before life on Earth (when stars preceded it by billions of years) and it has the Earth and the rest of the universe extant on day one. We know the Earth has only been around 4.5 billion years. The Universe is something like 14 billion years old.

I suspect that "it's metaphor" is being used as a "get out of disproof free" card for all factually inaccurate claims in the bible. Never do they explain what the passage is a metaphor for, as they hadn't thought it out that far. Like the shallow non-explanation "God did it" that they admonish their fundie cousins for using, they make use of the "it's metaphor" non-explanation in order to smooth over the cognitive dissonance. It doesn't matter if it doesn't actually resolve the issue as long as it's superficially plausible enough to set their minds at ease.

Dead-Guy: [...]That same recounting also goes on to explain how all of the dead in that cemetery rose and walked through the streets of the city, and yet we never hear of that from the church, in fact sometimes you hear their emphasis is on the fact that only Jesus could rise from the dead.

Dead_Guy ... he knows of what he speaks

He's not really putting words in my mouth. Just falsely categorizing me. I don't see things in black and white. I just don't believe that Jesus ever existed. Wall o' text coming up.

Even Christian writers acknowledge the difficulty of early preachers attempting to give inquirers proof. The church historian Mosheim writes "The Christian Fathers deemed it a pious act to employ deception and fraid" later saying "The greatest and most pious teachers were nearly all of them infected with this leprosy." Why should forgery and fraud be necessary to prove the historicity of Jesus? I don't have to lie to prove that Alexander the Great existed.

Another historian, Milman, wrote "Pious fraud was admitted and avowed [by the early missionaries of Jesus]" Bishop Ellicott speaking of the times immeadiately following the alleged crucifixion wrote "It was an age of literary frauds" Dr. Giles says "There can be no doubt that great numbers of books were written with no other purpose than to deceive". Dr. Robertson Smith said "There was an enormous floating mass of spurious literature created to suit party views".

One of the oldest critics of Christ, Porphyry, had most of his works destroyed by the early Fathers who then produced new texts supposedly written by him including the Philosophy of Oracles in which the pagan Porphyry was made to write like a Christian and had his name signed on it.

One of the prominent historians during the time of Jesus, Josephus, had his works tampered with to include a line about Jesus. A line which De Quincey says is known to be "a forgery by all men not lunatics." Canon Farrar says "This passage was early tampered with by the Christians" further saying "Respecting the third passage in Josephus, the only question is whether it be partly or entirely spurious". Early Christians did what Scientologists are trying to do now with their Glorious Leader.

If Jesus was a historical figure, surely other historians would mention him. Which brings us to Philo. Philo was known as a great Jewish scholar who lived in the same time period Jesus supposedly did. He was an Alexandrian Jew and he visited Jerusalem while Jesus was supposedly teaching and performing miracles in the city. Yet Philo never once mentions Jesus. He doesn't seem to have ever heard of him. He could not have helped mentioning him if he had ever seen or heard of him. At one point in his works Philo is describing the difference between two Jewish names, Hosea and Jesus. He even says that Jesus means Savior of the People. What a great time to mention that at that very moment there was living in Jerusalem a savior by the name of Jesus, or one supposed to be, or claiming to be, a savior.

vertiaset: "Oppose me all you like Sparky. I welcome it. Hey, try being civil and you may find that I will be civil in return. Act the ass and I will hand it to you on a platter."

Actually, yeah. Fine. I'm up for it. I gave kerpal32 the same chance, and although it didn't end well I'm always willing to give someone a clean slate if they want it.

vertiaset: "Here are some tips to assist you in not looking the fool"

In whose eyes do I look the fool? Should it matter to me if it isn't someone whose views I respect?

vertiaset: "Try learning something about philosophy, in particular about epistemology."

I'm not terribly enthusiastic about philosophy but I do know a fair bit about epistemology. You might've noticed I've asked you and other religious posters how it is we know what we know, which is the subject of epistemology. I ask because when one asserts that "we cannot know either way", they ignore that there are many things that's the case for, things they disbelieve in without considering their disbelief to be a faith based position.

vertiaset: "You might also want to actually READ The Selfish Gene, The God Delusion and Consciousness Explained."

I've read the first two. I'm receptive to reading the third.

vertiaset: "This, and you might also face the fact that not all Christians are young earth creationists or Evangelicals"

Why on earth would you believe that I hold this position? When have I ever said such a thing? I did reference data confirming that the majority of American Christians are Creationists, however. If you'd like to dispute that there are a great many other studies and polls I could provide corroborating the findings.

vertiaset: "....and that Christian Theology has progressed since the "bronze age".

In what sense is it "progress" when none of the revisions are tested? How do they know the revised conceptions are more accurate than the older ones?

vertiaset: "Also, lest I forget, remember that "faith" encompasses Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism and Hinduism and many other traditions the world over."

That's one meaning of "faith". The most basic and functional is the denial of the necessity of supporting claims with evidence.

vertiaset: "You might also remember that science deals only with the physical world and not with moral or ethical questions."

Religion doesn't deal with them either, though. Its answers aren't verifiable, they're just bare assertions. Over the centuries, religion has integrated a great deal from science, but what has science integrated from religion? The exchange has been very one sided for the simple reason that religion isn't a fact finding methodology and cannot produce real answers the way science can.

vertiaset: "If you stop acting like a ignorant hate filled fundamentalist I might stop treating you like one."

I'm not. I've been very clear about what I actually believe and I don't meet the criteria you've set out. I've been a jerk to you because you've been a jerk to me and because you have very common, very prejudicial opinions about "that kind of atheist". You invited the abuse, and I provided it. If your definition of "fundamentalist atheist" is "any atheist who is a jerk to me", it's no wonder you think you've met so many.

Jesus owes me money...

Is it too late to bail the Connecticut Son of Jesus out of jail, give him his 2x4 back, and send him off to bludgeon vertiaset and Zamboro?

/just a thought.

Gyrfalcon: If our argument has upset you, I apologize.

Zamboro: That's something I like to call "theological calvinball."

Nice.

vertiaset: If you stop acting like a ignorant hate filled fundamentalist I might stop treating you like one.


Hmm this sounds very familiar....

Having lived in Manchester (yes, I've gotten around a bit), I can say that it's a pretty screwed up place. It's like Rockville with a steady job and sometimes sober.

/bookmarking for awesome images to snag later!

Kliffoth: If you stop acting like a ignorant hate filled fundamentalist I might stop treating you like one.


No I swear I've heard someone on Fark use almost these exact same words many times over. Hmmm now who could it be....

hey vertiaset can kerpal32 come out and play?

Zamboro: vertiaset: "Yes, you have the small minded zealotry of the recently converted. This makes sense."

Recently? I'm 25. It was my high school level introduction to education in anthropology and neurobiology at a private Episcopalian academyEpiscopalian High School that disconvinced (disconvinced?? wtf???) disconvinced me of my beliefs became a different type of zealot with a lot of repressed hate. But I haven't figured that out yet.

FTFY.


Kliffoth: Kliffoth: If you stop acting like a ignorant hate filled fundamentalist I might stop treating you like one.


No I swear I've heard someone on Fark use almost these exact same words many times over. Hmmm now who could it be....

hey vertiaset can kerpal32 come out and play?

lol. don't get paranoid because multiple people come to the same conclusion about zamboro or even point out the obvious about him or others on Fark.

/came to laugh at the troll-bait thread and verify the usual cast of characters with sandy-vag-syndrome were ranting. bye.

kerpal32: "FTFY."

Yes, though it was like no high school I've ever heard of. It wasn't really something my parents could afford but the education was top notch and they wanted the best. The only thing I didn't care for were some of the bluebloods. The facilities and instructors were above and beyond anything I've seen since.

Just curious, when did you become a Christian? If the age is too low or too high in my view, does it invalidate your conclusion?

kerpal32: "lol. don't get paranoid because multiple people come to the same conclusion about zamboro or even point out the obvious about him or others on Fark."

You accuse me of having alts all the time, but I have none and invite any moderators present to confirm it for kerpal. If I have even a single alt, permaban me on the spot.

Are you willing to make the same statement?

kerpal32: lol. don't get paranoid because multiple people come to the same conclusion about zamboro or even point out the obvious about him or others on Fark.


My post has nothing to do with that. You tipped your hand. It's OK I'll play along.

Kliffoth: My post has nothing to do with that. You tipped your hand. It's OK I'll play along.

Why because I didn't quote your post directly above it? hmmmmm..... seems a bit of a stretch. ok, here it is troll.

Kliffoth: Kliffoth: If you stop acting like a ignorant hate filled fundamentalist I might stop treating you like one.


No I swear I've heard someone on Fark use almost these exact same words many times over. Hmmm now who could it be....

hey vertiaset can kerpal32 come out and play?

oh well.... sorry you're not only paranoid, but a bit of an idiot to boot.

Zamboro: You accuse me of having alts all the time, but I have none and invite any moderators present to confirm it for kerpal. If I have even a single alt, permaban me on the spot.

Are you willing to make the same statement?

have the mods come in. I'm not him. He's not me. Sorry, you really are a fanatic and people see that about you..

You've admitted to IM'ing and e-mailing your trolling thuggy pals to come to these threads. Do you need me to provide the link?

Kliffoth: lol. don't get paranoid because multiple people come to the same conclusion about zamboro or even point out the obvious about him or others on Fark.


Maybe you can understand this: My posts in this thread have nothing to do with any conclusions about Zamboro or anything 'obvious' you pointed out, I am also not paranoid, keep trotting out the same old lines though. Especially since you've accused me of having alts when I never have, nor ever will I. Your schtick is getting old.

Can you comprehend that?

Sorry perhaps I should clarify a little further kerpal32 so you don't get too confused. That post I just posted, yeah the one up there, see how I'm quoted? See I quoted from my post instead of yours because your spew doesn't show up as well against your pink background.

Sorry for the possible confusion, I'm really trying to keep it simple for you.

kerpal32: "have the mods come in. I'm not him. He's not me. Sorry, you really are a fanatic and people see that about you.."

How do overlook all the people saying that about you? Remember when I quoted them? You reported me for it rather than face up to what it implies.

kerpal32: "You've admitted to IM'ing and e-mailing your trolling thuggy pals to come to these threads. Do you need me to provide the link?"

Your point being? Yes, I'm friends with Kome irl and I talk with ninjakirby online. That shouldn't seem unusual to you unless the whole concept of friends is unusual to you, which I wouldn't rule out.

Kliffoth: Maybe you can understand this: My posts in this thread have nothing to do with any conclusions about Zamboro or anything 'obvious' you pointed out, I am also not paranoid, keep trotting out the same old lines though. Especially since you've accused me of having alts when I never have, nor ever will I. Your schtick is getting old.

Can you comprehend that?

depends on whether or it takes more than 2 min of scanning the same bullshiat hate rhetoric in a troll-bait thread by the usual fanatics, and noticing your usual insinuation that anyone who points out the obvious (i.e. zamboro is a fanatic with a big ass bag of anti-theistic hate) must be an alt.

Honestly, I really don't feel like putting in the effort for a waste of time like you two.

your schtick is beyond old. it stinks like sandy vag syndrome.

kerpal32: "and noticing your usual insinuation that anyone who points out the obvious (i.e. zamboro is a fanatic with a big ass bag of anti-theistic hate) must be an alt."

The sort of people who make that accusation tend to be like you, though. Bevets doesn't care for me either. Neither does Skinnyhead, or Imfallen_angel, or Mongo Cut Wood. All of them, fundamentalists who are habitually antagonistic towards atheists.

I'm not at all troubled by the fact that they hold me in low esteem. I'd be deeply concerned if they didn't.

What do you think of the Farkers who revile you? If you can't name names I'd be happy to provide a sizable list, provided you promise not to have me temp banned for it. :)

kerpal32: depends on whether or it takes more than 2 min of scanning the same bullshiat hate rhetoric in a troll-bait thread by the usual fanatics, and noticing your usual insinuation that anyone who points out the obvious (i.e. zamboro is a fanatic with a big ass bag of anti-theistic hate) must be an alt.


Wow you don't get it! You really don't. Me calling you out has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING you said about Zamboro! It had to do with a couple factors. The main one being that stuff like this


vertiaset: If you stop acting like a ignorant hate filled fundamentalist I might stop treating you like one.


Sounds exactly like you. I've had an inkling of this before but this line especially, the way it's phrased sounds very very much like you.


Saying calling out people as alts is MY usual insinuation is just too rich!


You do realise I don't take you seriously at all right? You know that I know that you know this is just a little game we're playing isn't it?

Kliffoth: Sounds exactly like you. I've had an inkling of this before but this line especially, the way it's phrased sounds very very much like you.

As I said, have the mods to verify. Veritas isn't me. I'm not him. Same as I'm not al the other people who made similar observations and comments.

Funny you seem surprised when other people describe your friend the way he is.

kerpal32: Funny you seem surprised when other people describe your friend the way he is.


Hey if I'm wrong I apologize (to vertiaset) but I will hold my suspicions a bit longer.


And who is the friend you're referring to? I have no friends who are Farkers. Fark is not a site I've ever really considered making friends on. I come here for the lolz, the snark, information, and a good old fashioned arguement. Also to be amused by clowns like you.

One more thing (cause double posts give me wood) isn't saying 'Have the mods verify' kind of like saying 'If I'm wrong may God strike me down...' you KNOW it's not going to happen.

Im sure they'd much rather be watching the Youporn in the other tab or finishing off that 5th of Bourbon than running 'background checks' on Farkers.

kliffoth: "You do realise I don't take you seriously at all right? You know that I know that you know this is just a little game we're playing isn't it?"

Don't let him get under your skin. Underneath all the prickly armor he's not a bad guy, he's even pretty bright. He's just had a lot of blow-up arguments with atheists.

When someone pisses you off, do you stop and consider what you might've done to upset them? Do you wonder if perhaps they've had a bad day or something? Most of the time you just write them off as a jerk, sorting them into your "bad person" folder. You might even treat them accordingly next time you see them, which of course will cause them to perceive you the same way. Escalation may occur and soon you hate one another even though under different circumstances you could've been on good terms.

Over time if you have bad experiences with a lot of people from the same group for reasons related to whatever distinguishes them, you may be tempted to conclude that the group itself is 'bad'. However, unable to resign yourself to condemning an entire group as you know it would constitute bigotry, you rationalize your way out of it by creating a subgroup within the group; the "bad kind" of atheist, for instance. Now you can get out of judging them individually and go back to condemning an entire group without feeling as though you're bigoted! It also gets you out of self-examination; you needn't consider that perhaps the reason so many people from that group take issue with your behavior is because your behavior is especially objectionable to that group.

When atheists dogpile Creationists for not accepting the findings of evolutionary science, moderate Christians nod their heads approvingly and sometimes even join in. When atheists dogpile moderates for not accepting the findings of cognitive neurobiology (for instance) suddenly they cry foul. They don't recognize the parallels. They think we had good reason to dump on the creationists, but no reason to dump on them, and that we are therefore douchebags.

Atheist
Christian 1: Dualist, Divine first cause
Christian 2: Dualist, divine first cause, Creationist
Christian 3: Dualist, Divine first case, Creationist, Flat earther.

The above are arranged according to how many Biblical claims they accept as true, and inversely how much of science they accept.

Christian 3 at the bottom thinks everyone above him is a hellbound heathen who puts too much stock in science, as from his perspective science hasn't proven that the Earth is round, it's an atheist conspiracy to undermine Christianity.

Christian 2 dismisses the Flat Earth as having nothing to do with him or Christianity. He scoffs at him just as we do for clinging to Hebrew cosmology even though it has been discredited by science. However, that's where he draws the line. From his perspective, science hasn't proven evolution and never can, it's an atheist conspiracy to undermine Christianity. Like Christian 4, he thinks everyone above him on the list is a science worshipper and that their acceptance of things like evolution constitutes a religion.

Christian 1 often joins in the atheist, mocking the Creationist and the Geocentrist, but objects when the atheist mocks them as well. They don't recognize that their beliefs any relation to those of the other two. At the same time they think the atheist above them puts too much stock in science, that neither dualism nor a divine first cause can be disproven and that denial of both constitute a religion.

Everyone thinks that the guys above them worship science and don't appreciate its limits, while thinking that the guys below them are misguided fundies. None recognize that they occupy positions on a sliding scale, each believes that science fully supports their position (and that anything which appears to contradict their views is either illegitimate or being misrepresented by those above them) and that those below them have nothing to do with Christianity and are in the tiny minority, while their take on Christianity is the definitive one held by most Christians worldwide.

The weirdest part is all of them are aware of the various other world religions and can understand how their beliefs developed out of tribal superstitions and rituals in a period when we were short on explanations for natural phenomena and in dire need of comfort and purpose given the brutal nature of our existence. However they place their own religion in a whole different category, and recognize no parallels between it and those other, clearly mistaken religions even though they have no more evidence for Yahweh than the Hindu has for Ganesh and Brahma. They think there's simply more to their religion, that the theology is more sophisticated, the prophecies more consistently fulfilled, the apologetics more sound, but that is because they've studied Christian theology, Christian prophecies and Christian apologetics. They haven't grown up studying Hindu theology, Hindu prophecies and Hindu apologetics. If they had, they'd be a Hindu, and regard Christians in a similar manner.

Kliffoth: "One more thing (cause double posts give me wood) isn't saying 'Have the mods verify' kind of like saying 'If I'm wrong may God strike me down...' you KNOW it's not going to happen."

Hey, at least the mods exist. I notified them of the thread and asked them to out whichever of us has an alt. For all I know they'll just throw up their hands in disgust and temp ban us both. I wouldn't blame 'em. This kind of shiat shouldn't be necessary.

Zamboro: Don't let him get under your skin. Underneath all the prickly armor he's not a bad guy, he's even pretty bright. He's just had a lot of blow-up arguments with atheists.

When someone pisses you off, do you stop and consider what you might've done to upset them? Do you wonder if perhaps they've had a bad day or something?


I don't let people on Fark get under my skin, ever. I know emotion doesn't translate well into text but I reply to him because I want to and I find the back and forth, petty and silly as it usually is, to be fun. If he didn't always resort to name-calling and conspiracy theories then I'd debate him. I don't think he really wants a civil debate so I sling shiat back, FARK is the only place I echew the high road if someone wants to sling mud.

I never meant to infer he wasn't intelligent.

Who is your post addressed to anyway? I hope it isn't me. I condemn no 'groups'. I only ever 'condemned' kerpal32 because of the way he debates. You've been far more vocal and...shall we say... vitriolic than I in these threads. Not saying you're wrong, I agree with you most of the time, but you're usually harsher in your arguements than I, not too harsh I think though.

There's only one Farker that springs to mind that I wouldn't sit down and have a beer with, provided we avoided politics and religion (unless we were like-minded), and nobody in this thread is he, and no it's not Bevets.


Zamboro: Kliffoth: "One more thing (cause double posts give me wood) isn't saying 'Have the mods verify' kind of like saying 'If I'm wrong may God strike me down...' you KNOW it's not going to happen."


Hey, at least the mods exist. I notified them of the thread and asked them to out whichever of us has an alt. For all I know they'll just throw up their hands in disgust and temp ban us both. I wouldn't blame 'em. This kind of shiat shouldn't be necessary.


I'm not sure they'd do it anyway, seems rather petty to be bringing to the mods.

Kliffoth: "Who is your post addressed to anyway? I hope it isn't me. I condemn no 'groups'. I only ever 'condemned' kerpal32 because of the way he debates. You've been far more vocal and...shall we say... vitriolic than I in these threads. Not saying you're wrong, I agree with you most of the time, but you're usually harsher in your arguements than I, not too harsh I think though."

Oh no it wasn't directed at you, mainly just thinking out loud.

Kliffoth: "I'm not sure they'd do it anyway, seems rather petty to be bringing to the mods."

There was no punitive intent, I want this cleared up by a mod so he can have authoritative confirmation that he's wrong to accuse me of having alts. I'm hoping that because it doesn't come from me he'll trust it and it will be the first of many examples contradicting his present convictions, and that a pattern of similar examples will eventually reverse his opinion of us.

Zamboro: Oh no it wasn't directed at you, mainly just thinking out loud.


Oh, my apologies then.


There was no punitive intent, I want this cleared up by a mod so he can have authoritative confirmation that he's wrong to accuse me of having alts. I'm hoping that because it doesn't come from me he'll trust it and it will be the first of many examples contradicting his present convictions, and that a pattern of similar examples will eventually reverse his opinion of us.


I understand. Though I'm a bit more pessimistic than you about him reversing his opinion. I think he's a troll, albeit a good one, so I don't think his mind is open to be reversed, or that he really has nothing against us and he's having a bit of fun.

Keep fighting the good fight though!

I don't know just where I'm going
But I'm gonna try for the kingdom, if I can
'Cause it makes me feel like I'm a man
When I put a spike into my vein
And I'll tell ya, things aren't quite the same
When I'm rushing on my run
And I feel just like Jesus' son
And I guess that I just don't know
And I guess that I just don't know

Kliffoth: "I understand. Though I'm a bit more pessimistic than you about him reversing his opinion. I think he's a troll, albeit a good one, so I don't think his mind is open to be reversed, or that he really has nothing against us and he's having a bit of fun."

Everyone can be reasoned with. Everyone thinks of themselves as a reasonable person, anyway. Even if he won't listen to me because he thinks I'm a monster, he'd listen to someone else saying the same things, provided they were more polite about it. It's why I want a clean slate with him, but near as I can tell he hated me from the beginning and he'll hate me no matter what I do or say.

Even so, the moment you throw up your hands and decide they're incapable of being reasoned with, you've become worse than them. Don't let yourself slip into the trap of thinking they're any less able to understand a well reasoned argument than you are, it's just a rationalization to stop putting effort into getting along with them and reaching a point of understanding. It's easier and more comfortable but it means you've given up on ever resolving the issue with them and setting things right. There are billions of people on Earth. You may think you can afford to write off and alienate a few. But you shouldn't rely on that statistical buffer between yourself and the rest of humanity. You should treat every person you argue with as if you're stuck on a desert island with them and you'll need to cooperate to survive. Because in a larger sense, that's true.

Zamboro: Kliffoth: "I understand. Though I'm a bit more pessimistic than you about him reversing his opinion. I think he's a troll, albeit a good one, so I don't think his mind is open to be reversed, or that he really has nothing against us and he's having a bit of fun."

Everyone can be reasoned with. Everyone thinks of themselves as a reasonable person, anyway. Even if he won't listen to me because he thinks I'm a monster, he'd listen to someone else saying the same things, provided they were more polite about it. It's why I want a clean slate with him, but near as I can tell he hated me from the beginning and he'll hate me no matter what I do or say.

Even so, the moment you throw up your hands and decide they're incapable of being reasoned with, you've become worse than them. Don't let yourself slip into the trap of thinking they're any less able to understand a well reasoned argument than you are, it's just a rationalization to stop putting effort into getting along with them and reaching a point of understanding. It's easier and more comfortable but it means you've given up on ever resolving the issue with them and setting things right. There are billions of people on Earth. You may think you can afford to write off and alienate a few. But you shouldn't rely on that statistical buffer between yourself and the rest of humanity. You should treat every person you argue with as if you're stuck on a desert island with them and you'll need to cooperate to survive. Because in a larger sense, that's true.


I'm just saying I think he's looking for an arguement, hence doesn't want to be reasoned with because he's trolling. I'm not saying he can't be reasoned with.

It seems like you really want to get through to him and you really care enough to put up a good arguement. I usually don't post much in these sorts of threads because by the time I get there you've said what I wanted to say... they always erupt when I'm at work dammit. I don't think the time put into arguing on FARK with him is worth it for me, especially since I think it's fruitless. If you think it's worth it knock yourself out. Whether he's honest or not I enjoy wordplay, which is why I respond to him at all.


I think he's farking with you though man.

Kliffoth: "I don't think the time put into arguing on FARK with him is worth it for me, especially since I think it's fruitless."

In one sense it is. In a few others, it isn't.

Kliffoth: "I think he's farking with you though man."

Be that as it may, he's still a human being. If I keep at it, eventually he'll get tired of being adversarial and combative because he'll see that provoking me only escalates aggression and makes productive discourse impossible. For a while I figured that if one of us was going to have to hold out the olive branch and endure a bit of abuse before the other realized they weren't getting any reaction and calmed down, it may as well be me. That accomplished nothing at the time although periodically he seems to mellow out for reasons unknown to me only to flare up again out of nowhere. There's something going on behind the scenes, I just don't have any way of knowing what it is and he'd never share that sort of information with me because he's used my own personal information against me and he assumes I hate him enough to do the same.

Eventually his better nature will win out and we'll be able to have a productive exchange of ideas. For that to happen I've got to let everything he says slide. It's tough. I have quite a temper and once I get going it's hard to stop. But at this point it's more about the principle of the matter, I need to know it's possible to talk someone down from a dug-in position like his, and I need him to know that the reactions he gets aren't due to some atheists being horrible monsters, it's because his conception of them and their reasons for being the way they are is intensely demeaning.

Wait and see. I'm not promising anything as most of my enthusiasm for the endeavor bled away months ago but even if I get nothing else out of this, I'll have improved my ability to brush off provocation.

Zamboro: Kliffoth: "I don't think the time put into arguing on FARK with him is worth it for me, especially since I think it's fruitless."

In one sense it is. In a few others, it isn't.

Kliffoth: "I think he's farking with you though man."

Be that as it may, he's still a human being. If I keep at it, eventually he'll get tired of being adversarial and combative because he'll see that provoking me only escalates aggression and makes productive discourse impossible. For a while I figured that if one of us was going to have to hold out the olive branch and endure a bit of abuse before the other realized they weren't getting any reaction and calmed down, it may as well be me. That accomplished nothing at the time although periodically he seems to mellow out for reasons unknown to me only to flare up again out of nowhere. There's something going on behind the scenes, I just don't have any way of knowing what it is and he'd never share that sort of information with me because he's used my own personal information against me and he assumes I hate him enough to do the same.

Eventually his better nature will win out and we'll be able to have a productive exchange of ideas. For that to happen I've got to let everything he says slide. It's tough. I have quite a temper and once I get going it's hard to stop. But at this point it's more about the principle of the matter, I need to know it's possible to talk someone down from a dug-in position like his, and I need him to know that the reactions he gets aren't due to some atheists being horrible monsters, it's because his conception of them and their reasons for being the way they are is intensely demeaning.

Wait and see. I'm not promising anything as most of my enthusiasm for the endeavor bled away months ago but even if I get nothing else out of this, I'll have improved my ability to brush off provocation.


You're quite the optimist. I'd like your hopes to be founded, it'd be interesting to see you two debate without the ad-hominims and bile.

Zamboro:You accuse me of having alts all the time, but I have none and invite any moderators present to confirm it for kerpal. If I have even a single alt, permaban me on the spot.

Yeah yeah... so help me if I'm lying may Mod strike me down where I stand.

Silly atheists, always deifying something.

/Where is your Mod now?

I'm a little late... but nice work subby!

it never ceases to amaze me how debates of this nature in which one side attempts to extol the virtues and legitimacy of a belief based on the teachings of a man (real or fictional) whose message was "love thy neighbor", "live and let live", acceptance, and ultimately forgiveness, degenerate into animosity and intolerance. I guess sometimes the message is lost for me when the messenger is more concerned with making others share his beliefs than actually practicing them himself.

I may be going to hell for this one... but I already live in CT, so it will be a lateral move - but hey, we've got the son of jesus, what does your state have?

Athiests stop prosyletizing You're worse than the farkin fundamentalists! Believe what you want and extend the same courtesy to others. Like Jefferson said 'I care not whether my neighbor worships no gods or many. For it neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket.' Live and let live, Jesus!

Crewmannumber6: Athiests stop prosyletizing You're worse than the farkin fundamentalists! Believe what you want and extend the same courtesy to others. Like Jefferson said 'I care not whether my neighbor worships no gods or many. For it neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket.' Live and let live, Jesus!


First it's 'Atheist'. Second we aren't allowed to express our point of view without being accused of prosyletizing? How dare we even discuss religion!

I don't care who believes what as long as their beliefs don't infringe upon my personal freedoms and well-being. How dare we comment about religion in a topic about religion on a message board. The gall!

Kliffoth: Crewmannumber6: Athiests stop prosyletizing You're worse than the farkin fundamentalists! Believe what you want and extend the same courtesy to others. Like Jefferson said 'I care not whether my neighbor worships no gods or many. For it neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket.' Live and let live, Jesus!


First it's 'Atheist'. Second we aren't allowed to express our point of view without being accused of prosyletizing? How dare we even discuss religion!

I don't care who believes what as long as their beliefs don't infringe upon my personal freedoms and well-being. How dare we comment about religion in a topic about religion on a message board. The gall!

So we're in agreement, except for my spelling. I'll scan upward and see if all your doing is 'expressing your point of view' although I don't see a lot of farkers on either side who are willing or able to leave it at that

Crewmannumber6: "Athiests stop prosyletizing You're worse than the farkin fundamentalists!"

First of all, we're not prosyletizing. We're arguing in favor of our position. Argument is free speech and you would apparently deny us that right.

Secondly, in order to be as bad as the fundamentalists we'd need a history of bombing abortion clinics, suppressing abortion rights, gay rights and stem cell research, and trying to insert creationism into public science classrooms by way of subterfuge.

Atheists may annoy you because they don't believe what you believe, but that doesn't make them worse than suicide bombers, 9/11 hijackers, pedophile priests, Creationists or pro-lifers and to suggest that it does is extreme hyperbole.

Crewmannumber6: "Believe what you want and extend the same courtesy to others."

Absolutely, which is what we've been doing. Putting up a billboard does not force anyone to become an atheist. Arguing with a Christian on a messageboard does not force him to become an atheist.

People have the right to believe whatever they want. They do not have the right to forbid others from trying to change their mind.

Crewmannumber6: "Like Jefferson said 'I care not whether my neighbor worships no gods or many. For it neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket.' Live and let live, Jesus!"

This senator believes the world is 6,000 years old. On those grounds she is holding back mining laws meant to protect the environment. Your initial instinct is to dismiss her as a fluke, but there are many more like her and there have been for decades now. The head of the environmental board during the Reagan administration said "We needn't worry ourselves with the state of the climate past 50 years as Jesus is set to return well before then".

There's also the organized effort to deny reproductive control to women, the Mormon campaign (NOM) to deny gays the right to marry, the WEDGE effort to supplant evolution in public schools that was exposed during the Dover trials....

Yet it's the atheists you're mad at, because they're advancing a position you don't agree with and don't want to hear about. If you want to do something productive instead of hurling bricks from the sidelines, you could help us reinforce the wall of separation, repair the quality of science education, secure marriage rights for gays, and reproductive rights for women.

Zamboro: First of all, we're not prosyletizing. We're arguing in favor of our position. Argument is free speech and you would apparently deny us that right.

wharrarbl. It is proselytizing. Why can't you admit it?


Atheists may annoy you because they don't believe what you believe, but that doesn't make them worse than suicide bombers, 9/11 hijackers, pedophile priests, Creationists or pro-lifers and to suggest that it does is extreme hyperbole.

strawman / red herring atheism has had a history of motivated violence and oppression against religion.

just one example, there's about a century of history of anti-theistic violence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union (pops)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism (pops)

And before you even go there saying communism / socialism / marxism isn't atheism, it is a core tenet, and people see it....



strawman / red herrings
- you think no atheists are pedophiles? you think all theists / Catholicism involves pedophelia? Or that religion exploits it? instead of people with a sickness exploiting a system....

- not all theists/deists are creationists. Do you think there are atheists out there with some really batshiat pseudo science?

- you don't think there are atheist pro-lifers? The debate there is about the rights of life, sanctity of life, differing views of when life is created, etc. (pro-choice btw, just citing your red herring)

- stem cell research, involves many of the same debate issues as pro-life, but also includes concerns over scientific ethics and industrialization. Philosophical, social and cultural risks and impacts on society, harvesting of life, etc. The potential of Human "life" as a commodity similar to the organ black market that exists. Seeking alternatives to harvesting, which have been successful and may not have come about without political pressure. I see the value of the research, but I also see the cultural / ethical risks.

http://www.dmoz.org/Society/Philosophy/Ethics/Applied/Science_and_Technology/ (pops)

Yes, there always will be political and social strife, and yes much of it does touch on religious tenets.

But I see what your saying. All the time. Everywhere you can. But you claim you don't proselytize.


/hey - did you ever bother to look into the details on what Helmuth Nyborg said about the data in his tests and the clustering of the hyperintelligent empiricists and dumb, easily indoctrinated, social outcasts? just curious.