Don't forget the abolition of mark to market allowing all the garbage on their balance sheet to dissapear.

that_other_internet: thomps: i really hate defending goldman, but i think the argument would be that when they are using the program they are doing so under exchange and government regulation, with compliance officers and lawyer. random dudes in eastern europe would probably not be operating in a similar environment.

There's always regulation. It's enforcement that's the issue.

Goldman alumni throw around quite a bit of juice around the central banks and in Washington("Revolving Door" map).

I mean..enforcement is really, really, tricky.

completely agree. regulation is way too lax and the regulators are way too close to the regulated.

As a white male employed by the international banking elite, I am gettign a kick out of...

/tight credits drove companies to secondary offerings
//investment banking drove GS profits
///this is good news, not bad
////they are WAY overcompensating for any accidental market manipulation profits by their actions
//bunch a commie whack jobs in here

Larofeticus: Don't forget the abolition of mark to market allowing all the garbage on their balance sheet to dissapear.

You don't know what you are talking about.

elchip: I just think of Goldman Sachs as me and the economy as Playerslight's teenage daughter on prom night.

and i think of us internet commentators as me hiding in elchip's bushes looking through his window at playerslight's teenage daughter on prom night.

Goldman Sachs OWNS the Treasury. Everything the Treasury does is for Goldman Sachs. Their profits are no surprise.

Weaver95: thomps: Weaver95: the part where they're cheating.

who/how are they cheating?

Have you read up on their comments regarding the theft of this trading program they've been using? It's been interesting, that's for sure:

"When US government prosecutors claim that the release of Goldman's secret sauce could potentially expose markets to manipulation, what they're really saying is that some unknown party could use it to out-manipulate Goldman, and possibly even do something more ambitious like frustrate Goldman's platform so that it fails while simultaneously finding some way to short it."

Seems to me the only party that could lose out is Goldman.
Like the article says, someone would steal their place in line.

on the one hand, one can appreciate the brilliance of a really good con, the cleverness of organized crime and the brass ballsyness of a successful thief, but at the end of the day, they are still crooks and they have your money.

Arnold T Pants: Goldman Sachs OWNS the Treasury. Everything the Treasury does is for Goldman Sachs. Their profits are no surprise.

So, did you invest in GS to take advantage of your perfect 20/20 foresight?

Ah, yes. I thought so.

Weaver95: thomps: Weaver95: Ask a better question next time.

i'm questioning your assumption that trading on market inefficiencies that would otherwise be ignored is in some way anti-competitive or unhealthy for the market.

i'm wondering why you think it's ok for someone to impose artificially created inefficiencies on the marketplace and then take advantage of the situation....

What's an "artificially created inefficiency"?

Did you know that you can arbitrage as well?

You seem to know very little about the subject, other than a very vague general notion that just gets you angry.

I just pray that obscene bonuses can now be reinstated.

Came for the South Park Treasury pic...the one with the chicken dancing on the wheel and the agent on the Kazoo. Leaving very disappointed.

Move along, citzens... Nothing to see here.

/2BIG2FAIL, amirite?

/wake up, taxpayer. Time to go to work!

Also, people, let's not forget to blame the Jews as while we are at it.

/Shazam999, good job

Record profits = record bonuses (or at least it should).

/Anti-capitalist liberal followup article and butthurt thread to follow.

Goldman makes record profits because they reward their people very well for taking calculated risks that pay off. These guys are the "A" team and lead the street.

Bank-owned broker dealers are followers, wanting to make the same amount of money but try to pay their people less. So they hire less talented individuals and take bigger risks to make up for it and typically get burned. And now that the government owns stakes in these entities they're going to try and limit compensation even further. Penny-wise, pound-foolish.

The best and brighest are at goldman or are starting/enhancing other independent dealers and are KILLING IT this year in sales and trading.

A big **** you to the government, it seems.

terryjft: I just pray that obscene bonuses can now be reinstated.

*fist bump*

/have to pay off the second mortgage on my country estate
//not kidding, suckers

griffer: //bunch a commie whack jobs in here

The actions of commie whack jobs is the only reason GS survived 2008 intact.

griffer: So, did you invest in GS to take advantage of your perfect 20/20 foresight?

That's a tough call. Do you invest in a bubble and hope it survives long enough to pull out a profit, or do you act cautiously and avoid the bubble all together? If it wasn't for AIG getting backstopped by the Treasury and covering all of GS's bets, they'd be yesterday's news, and there was no guarantee that either AIG or its bailout would continue indefinitely.

There's no ideological high ground in this argument; everyone has their hands dirty.

Clearly, any trading done using these new-fangled "Algorithms" is cheating and a blight upon all investors. Only through the Hand Picking of stocks will we return to true prosperity and gloriously Efficient markets.

tacks: Goldman makes record profits because they reward their people very well for taking calculated risks that pay off. These guys are the "A" team and lead the street.

Bank-owned broker dealers are followers, wanting to make the same amount of money but try to pay their people less. So they hire less talented individuals and take bigger risks to make up for it and typically get burned. And now that the government owns stakes in these entities they're going to try and limit compensation even further. Penny-wise, pound-foolish.

The best and brighest are at goldman or are starting/enhancing other independent dealers and are KILLING IT this year in sales and trading.

A big **** you to the government, it seems.

Yeah!

Playerslight: There's no ideological high ground in this argument

BS, I am looking down on you right now from the high ground.

griffer: Playerslight: There's no ideological high ground in this argument

BS, I am looking down on you right now from the high ground.

We can see right up your dress.

Am I the only one who is glad that GS is US-Based and not Chinese or Russian?

The business of America, is business!

I LIKE it when my fellow countrymen make obscene amounts of money. It means there might be hope for me, too. After all, rich people put their pants on one leg at a time, too, right??

America is the land of OPPORTUNITY [not guarantee]

Morton_toes: We can see right up your dress.

Shhh, my camera batteries are dead and I'm trying to find an electrical outlet.

tacks: Goldman makes record profits because they reward their people very well for taking calculated risks that pay off own the Treasury department and the Fed. It isn't hard to take risks when your pals in the government are looking out for you at every turn and will cover your losses.

A big **** you to the government taxpayers, it seems.

Ball of Confusion: Am I the only one who is glad that GS is US-Based and not Chinese or Russian?

The business of America, is business!

I LIKE it when my fellow countrymen make obscene amounts of money. It means there might be hope for me, too. After all, rich people put their pants on one leg at a time, too, right??

America is the land of OPPORTUNITY [not guarantee]

/Don't stop - Believin' (hold on to that fee-eelin')

i don't see how data mining of publicly-available data is wrong.

Has anyone else here read Tom Clancy's Debt of Honor? I'm seeing lots of correlation with the description of program trading and what's going on here.

griffer: tacks: Goldman makes record profits because they reward their people very well for taking calculated risks that pay off. These guys are the "A" team and lead the street.

Bank-owned broker dealers are followers, wanting to make the same amount of money but try to pay their people less. So they hire less talented individuals and take bigger risks to make up for it and typically get burned. And now that the government owns stakes in these entities they're going to try and limit compensation even further. Penny-wise, pound-foolish.

The best and brighest are at goldman or are starting/enhancing other independent dealers and are KILLING IT this year in sales and trading.

A big **** you to the government, it seems.

Yeah!



lol you two done with the circle jerk? ...

I am not sure this is an "unfair" advantage. It is definitely an advantage but it seems anyone with enough money could do it. The only part that seems to be unfair is that GS can afford better equipment than anyone else, thus they will be first in line. Now that their code is out there someone might write better code to undermine them. However, I think this is a bit beyond your average script kiddy.

/thinks he will be asking some aquaintenances about this program

Wizzin: tacks: Goldman makes record profits because they reward their people very well for taking calculated risks that pay off own the Treasury department and the Fed. It isn't hard to take risks when your pals in the government are looking out for you at every turn and will cover your losses.

A big **** you to the taxpayers, it seems.

Well that's where the government isn't "completely" stupid - it hires ex-Goldman guys as advisors. Shockingly it isn't full of ex-Wamu commercial bankers and tellers.

Although when we say "taxpayers" we should all be honest with ourselves about who is really paying for the bailout and all these proposed tax increases - right - the bankers who are getting **** on by the guy who pays $4 a year in tax who calls himself a taxpayer. Imagine if every dollar of tax you paid got you a vote in this country....yikes...

Weaver95: Playerslight: As long as they aren't inside trading (not that I believe they aren't) it's not technically an unfair advantage. They were gaming the programmed trading of other companies on Wall Street, which is perfectly legit. Day trading is a chump's game anyway, when you're going up against guys like that.

seems kind of unfair tho, don't you think?

*Newsflash* Life's not fair, never has been, never will be!

They gamble big and when they win they keep it and when they lose you bail them out.

That's why their right back to the same old overleveraging with borrowed money tricks that put the world in the mess it is in.

When they lose they just pick your pocket so why should they be prudent?

eqtworld: What specific part of their program trading do you have a problem with?

The part where they see actual trades pre-execution and can insert their own trade to take advantage of that knowledge.

It's called Frontrunning and is illegal.

tacks: Wizzin: tacks: Goldman makes record profits because they reward their people very well for taking calculated risks that pay off own the Treasury department and the Fed. It isn't hard to take risks when your pals in the government are looking out for you at every turn and will cover your losses.

A big **** you to the taxpayers, it seems.

Well that's where the government isn't "completely" stupid - it hires ex-Goldman guys as advisors. Shockingly it isn't full of ex-Wamu commercial bankers and tellers.

Although when we say "taxpayers" we should all be honest with ourselves about who is really paying for the bailout and all these proposed tax increases - right - the bankers who are getting **** on by the guy who pays $4 a year in tax who calls himself a taxpayer. Imagine if every dollar of tax you paid got you a vote in this country....yikes...

spare me, what percentage do the banks really pay? I mean percent of each dollar earned. The U.S. has some of the loosest corporate tax code in the world. That's why our tax rate, on paper, for corporations is much higher than Europes. What is the actual amount they pay at the end of the day? I know that the tax code for your average schlep in the U.S. isn't as loose, nor can they afford the high priced Tax accountants/attorneys.

tacks: Imagine if every dollar of tax you paid got you a vote in this country....yikes...

Well, it's obvious the country would then be run by some rich elite while lower income citizens squabbled over the scraps. I can't imagine that reality.

The horror.

Playerslight: tacks: Imagine if every dollar of tax you paid got you a vote in this country....yikes...

Well, it's obvious the country would then be run by some rich elite while lower income citizens squabbled over the scraps. I can't imagine that reality.

The horror.

*snerk*

Quiet, citizen!

/CONSUME AND SLEEP!

YouWinAgainGravity: i don't see how data mining of publicly-available data is wrong.

Doing it better than everyon else is the issue.

Morton_toes: We can see right up your dress.

Oh my, dearie me, oh my!

edg_mule: GS can afford better equipment than anyone else, thus they will be first in line.

That's wierd! It's like some kind of system that rewards capital investment.

/for lack of a better word, Investmentalism?

EnderWiggnz: The part where they see actual trades pre-execution and can insert their own trade to take advantage of that knowledge.

It's called Frontrunning and is illegal.

except that's not what they're doing. they're compiling and analyzing publicly available market data and executing trades faster than others.

griffer: That's wierd! It's like some kind of system that rewards capital investment.

/for lack of a better word, Investmentalism?

I don't know how it's possible to love and hate you simultaneously. It's like we're married.

griffer: Doing it better than everyon else is the issue.

if they were doing it with insider knowledge, i could see the problem. but the description of the program looks like it sits on real-time news and market feeds, analyzes the data, then automates transactions. it's just a highly efficient and speedy method of doing what other people can do manually.

griffer: terryjft: I just pray that obscene bonuses can now be reinstated.

*fist bump*

/have to pay off the second mortgage on my country estate
//not kidding, suckers

You're proud of your second mortgage?

/really?

tacks: Wizzin: tacks: Goldman makes record profits because they reward their people very well for taking calculated risks that pay off own the Treasury department and the Fed. It isn't hard to take risks when your pals in the government are looking out for you at every turn and will cover your losses.

A big **** you to the taxpayers, it seems.

Well that's where the government isn't "completely" stupid - it hires ex-Goldman guys as advisors. Shockingly it isn't full of ex-Wamu commercial bankers and tellers.

Although when we say "taxpayers" we should all be honest with ourselves about who is really paying for the bailout and all these proposed tax increases - right - the bankers who are getting **** on by the guy who pays $4 a year in tax who calls himself a taxpayer. Imagine if every dollar of tax you paid got you a vote in this country....yikes...

Yea, except UBS takes care of all those messy "taxes" for the poor, downtrodden banker.

griffer: YouWinAgainGravity: i don't see how data mining of publicly-available data is wrong.

Doing it better than everyon else is the issue.

Morton_toes: We can see right up your dress.

Oh my, dearie me, oh my!

edg_mule: GS can afford better equipment than anyone else, thus they will be first in line.

That's wierd! It's like some kind of system that rewards capital investment.

/for lack of a better word, Investmentalism?

I was not arguing for or against this situation but merely flatly stating the situation to put it in a clearer light. See because this situation obviously leads to a cycle. If GS does this they will always make the most profits and therefore always invest in better equipment than others. Unless someone comes along and invents a mousetrap that is not only better but changes the situation somehow, take the faster equipment out of the equation as the sole determining factor for instance, then GS will maintain dominance in perpitude. This will be a monopoly of sorts. The real question then is this sort of Monopoly bad for the economy or not. That is the question at hand, and of course no one knows.

The real problem is that we are applying modern computing technologies to systems that were developed in the days before computers that often relied on a certain physical framework and reality to maintain balance. The "exploit" GS has found is just one example of what is probably many that can be used now due to fast computing that was not physically possible when the market was first developed. This is quite true in many realms of the real world today.

There was an article in Rolling Stone about GS and why the are so successful. Did anyone else read it? I'll try to find a link to it.

edg_mule: he real problem is that we are applying modern computing technologies to systems that were developed in the days before computers that often relied on a certain physical framework and reality to maintain balance. The "exploit" GS has found is just one example of what is probably many that can be used now due to fast computing that was not physically possible when the market was first developed. This is quite true in many realms of the real world today.

Oh noes! This is going to turn into an evolution thread!

YouWinAgainGravity: except that's not what they're doing. they're compiling and analyzing publicly available market data and executing trades faster than others.

That *is* what they're doing. All trades to all markets go through GS's systems first. Where they are analyzed and trades are executed based on this info.

Why are you defending this? They're clearly gaming the system, in a high-tech, but classic illegal scheme. Are you being paid by them?

It's not innovation, its fraud.

Weaver95: yeah, but it's still not exactly a level playing field.

Waaaah life isn't fair! ;)

YouWinAgainGravity: EnderWiggnz: The part where they see actual trades pre-execution and can insert their own trade to take advantage of that knowledge.

It's called Frontrunning and is illegal.

except that's not what they're doing. they're compiling and analyzing publicly available market data and executing trades faster than others.

Sounds to me like these companies didn't learn their lesson. How quickly they seem to have gone right back to the same behavior - which almost caused a complete collapse in the economy. It's nothing but more, more, more - at any cost.

All I can say is this - if these farkers fark up, and cause the economy to go back into a tail-spin of serious losses - don't come crawling to me for another 'bail-out.'

Do the right thing - and jump out the top floor window next time.

Surely plenty of people followed the story last week of Sergey Aleynikov, a Russian computer whiz who, well, defected from the employ of Goldman Sachs, apparently taking with him the bank's proprietary trading code. There is a lot of backstory here that is key: if you've followed Zero Hedge's speculations dating back months about Goldman somehow manipulating program trading at the NYSE, this is connected to that, as the theory here is that Aleynikov stole the computer program that Goldman may have been using to manipulate the NYSE.

Such speculations until recently may have sounded like conspiracy theories, but then last week Assistant U.S. Attorney Joseph Facciponti stood up in court and let loose a whopper. "The bank has raised the possibility that there is a danger that somebody who knew how to use this program could use it to manipulate markets in unfair ways," he said.


/US Attorney..in open court