Didn't Goldman-Sachs just admit that their super secret computerized trading program gave them an unfair market advantage?

Weaver95: Didn't Goldman-Sachs just admit that their super secret computerized trading program gave them an unfair market advantage?

As long as they aren't inside trading (not that I believe they aren't) it's not technically an unfair advantage. They were gaming the programmed trading of other companies on Wall Street, which is perfectly legit. Day trading is a chump's game anyway, when you're going up against guys like that.

Playerslight: As long as they aren't inside trading (not that I believe they aren't) it's not technically an unfair advantage. They were gaming the programmed trading of other companies on Wall Street, which is perfectly legit. Day trading is a chump's game anyway, when you're going up against guys like that.

seems kind of unfair tho, don't you think?

Weaver95: seems kind of unfair tho, don't you think?

arbitrage isn't necessarily illegal or bad for the market. such are the advantages of being an 800lb gorilla on wall street.

Good article on automated trading:

http://www.themistrading.com/article_files/0000/0348/Toxic_Equity_Trading_on_Wa l l_Street_12-17-08.pdf

Sorry for no linking.

Weaver95: seems kind of unfair tho, don't you think?

You won't find me standing up for the activities of most any firm on Wall Street; they're all parasitic twits.

I used to not care, however, because they were previously confined to Manhattan and generally just stole each other's money and whomever was foolish enough to try and enter that world. The last few years, however, they've stuck their tentacles into lots of other stuff outside the island and promptly messed up the 'real' economy. That irritates me.

ThrnPhl: Good article on automated trading:

http://www.themistrading.com/article_files/0000/0348/Toxic_Equity_Trading_on_Wa l l_Street_12-17-08.pdf

Sorry for no linking.

i'm getting a 404 not found.

Weaver95: seems kind of unfair tho, don't you think?

How are you arguing against that? Goldman Sacks is playing the system.

thomps: Weaver95: seems kind of unfair tho, don't you think?

arbitrage isn't necessarily illegal or bad for the market. such are the advantages of being an 800lb gorilla on wall street.

yeah, but it's still not exactly a level playing field.

Weaver95: yeah, but it's still not exactly a level playing field.

very few industries have level playing fields between large institutional players and solo practitioners. why should finance be any different?

Try again:

http://www.themistrading.com/article_files/0000/0348/Toxic_Equity_Trading_on_Wa l l_Street_12-17-08.pdf

Weaver95: yeah, but it's still not exactly a level playing field.

So it seems like you're arguing for regulation.

somehow a couple spaces got in the word "wall" - works once you take those out (see below). thanks for the link, i'll give it a read

http://www.themistrading.com/article_files/0000/0348/Toxic_Equity_Trading_on_Wa l l_Street_12-17-08.pdf

thomps: somehow a couple spaces got in the word "wall" - works once you take those out (see below). thanks for the link, i'll give it a read

http://www.themistrading.com/article_files/0000/0348/Toxic_Equity_Trading_on_Wa l l_Street_12-17-08.pdf

weird, the filter must be adding those speces for some reason.

doesn't hurt when 40% of your business is unregulated derivatives either.

Just noticed there are spaces in 'Wall' that need to be removed.

Weaver95: thomps: Weaver95: seems kind of unfair tho, don't you think?

arbitrage isn't necessarily illegal or bad for the market. such are the advantages of being an 800lb gorilla on wall street.

yeah, but it's still not exactly a level playing field.

Well, how exactly isn't it? There's nothing stopping other institutions from developing and utilizing the same technology, right? I don't think Goldman Sachs is obliged to stop using this advantage simply because it gives them an advantage.

And holy crap, you and I are arguing the opposite sides of our allegiances, I think. The hell is going on here?!?

Goldman-Sachs have holdings in the neighbourhood of a trillion dollars, IIRC. They're terrifyingly big.

Bored Horde: Goldman-Sachs have holdings in the neighbourhood of a trillion dollars, IIRC. They're terrifyingly big.

That's what they're saying their holdings are worth.

tnpir: And holy crap, you and I are arguing the opposite sides of our allegiances, I think. The hell is going on here?!?

Sensors indicate a ideological singularity forming in the Farkiverse off the port bow.

a direct line to the US Treasury through AIG Hank Paulson and Tim Geithner

Playerslight: Sensors indicate a ideological singularity forming in the Farkiverse off the port bow.

He's basically arguing for regulation so all methods of trading are equal. I'm scared.

GAT_00: Weaver95: yeah, but it's still not exactly a level playing field.

So it seems like you're arguing for regulation.

1. i'm not 'arguing' anything.
2. i'm wondering how this furthers market competition.

look - like any good libertarian capitalist, I believe that competition leads to healthy markets. Remove competition, and you get stagnation, monopolies and market distortions. It just seems to me that Goldman-Sachs has found a quasi-legal way to eliminate competition and nobody seems to care.

Weaver95: GAT_00: Weaver95: yeah, but it's still not exactly a level playing field.

So it seems like you're arguing for regulation.

1. i'm not 'arguing' anything.
2. i'm wondering how this furthers market competition.

look - like any good libertarian capitalist, I believe that competition leads to healthy markets. Remove competition, and you get stagnation, monopolies and market distortions. It just seems to me that Goldman-Sachs has found a quasi-legal way to eliminate competition and nobody seems to care.

It's something I heard Harry Browne once say: Libertarians can appreciate regulation to the end of "equality of opportunity", meaning government regulation is fine when it's intention and outcome is to keep people from being barred fair opportunity to pursue improvement.

UNC_Samurai: It's something I heard Harry Browne once say: Libertarians can appreciate regulation to the end of "equality of opportunity", meaning government regulation is fine when it's intention and outcome is to keep people from being barred fair opportunity to pursue improvement.

The problem with our current form of government 'regulation' is that it's designed to create artificial government backed monopolies. you just pay your lobbyists to arrange things with the right people in D.C. and you get your little government mandated right to rape, loot and pillage your sector of the market. The only time the fed gets cranky is if you overstep the bounds of your letter of marque.

Weaver95: look - like any good libertarian capitalist, I believe that competition leads to healthy markets. Remove competition, and you get stagnation, monopolies and market distortions. It just seems to me that Goldman-Sachs has found a quasi-legal way to eliminate competition and nobody seems to care.

yeah but every one of their trades has two sides, so all they are doing is increasing the number of trades and exploiting inefficiencies in the market. doesn't this, then, increase competition since it increases trade volume?

thomps: yeah but every one of their trades has two sides, so all they are doing is increasing the number of trades and exploiting inefficiencies in the market. doesn't this, then, increase competition since it increases trade volume?

no.

Weaver95: thomps: yeah but every one of their trades has two sides, so all they are doing is increasing the number of trades and exploiting inefficiencies in the market. doesn't this, then, increase competition since it increases trade volume?

no.

well argued.

thomps: Weaver95: thomps: yeah but every one of their trades has two sides, so all they are doing is increasing the number of trades and exploiting inefficiencies in the market. doesn't this, then, increase competition since it increases trade volume?

no.

well argued.

Ask a better question next time.

Weaver95: Ask a better question next time.

i'm questioning your assumption that trading on market inefficiencies that would otherwise be ignored is in some way anti-competitive or unhealthy for the market.

thomps: Weaver95: Ask a better question next time.

i'm questioning your assumption that trading on market inefficiencies that would otherwise be ignored is in some way anti-competitive or unhealthy for the market.

i'm wondering why you think it's ok for someone to impose artificially created inefficiencies on the marketplace and then take advantage of the situation....

eqtworld: Weaver95: Remove competition, and you get stagnation, monopolies and market distortions. It just seems to me that Goldman-Sachs has found a quasi-legal way to eliminate competition and nobody seems to care.

What specific part of their program trading do you have a problem with?

the part where they're cheating.

Weaver95: i'm wondering why you think it's ok for someone to impose artificially created inefficiencies on the marketplace and then take advantage of the situation....

how are they imposing inefficiencies? from what i can tell they are just taking advantage of inefficiencies caused by the trading rules of other firms.

Weaver95: the part where they're cheating.

who/how are they cheating?

thomps: Weaver95: i'm wondering why you think it's ok for someone to impose artificially created inefficiencies on the marketplace and then take advantage of the situation....

how are they imposing inefficiencies? from what i can tell they are just taking advantage of inefficiencies caused by the trading rules of other firms.

wrong.

thomps: Weaver95: the part where they're cheating.

who/how are they cheating?

Have you read up on their comments regarding the theft of this trading program they've been using? It's been interesting, that's for sure:

"When US government prosecutors claim that the release of Goldman's secret sauce could potentially expose markets to manipulation, what they're really saying is that some unknown party could use it to out-manipulate Goldman, and possibly even do something more ambitious like frustrate Goldman's platform so that it fails while simultaneously finding some way to short it."

eqtworld: Weaver95: eqtworld: Weaver95: Remove competition, and you get stagnation, monopolies and market distortions. It just seems to me that Goldman-Sachs has found a quasi-legal way to eliminate competition and nobody seems to care.

What specific part of their program trading do you have a problem with?

the part where they're cheating.

I'm still not clear how they were cheating.

I'm not saying they were not or that such a thing would surprise me, I'm just not sure what specific trading method they used that was cheating

read.

Weaver95: thomps: Weaver95: i'm wondering why you think it's ok for someone to impose artificially created inefficiencies on the marketplace and then take advantage of the situation....

how are they imposing inefficiencies? from what i can tell they are just taking advantage of inefficiencies caused by the trading rules of other firms.

wrong.

maybe some context here? at a quick glance this looks like the NYSE is just getting rid of a reporting requirement for program trading?

Weaver95: Have you read up on their comments regarding the theft of this trading program they've been using? It's been interesting, that's for sure:

"When US government prosecutors claim that the release of Goldman's secret sauce could potentially expose markets to manipulation, what they're really saying is that some unknown party could use it to out-manipulate Goldman, and possibly even do something more ambitious like frustrate Goldman's platform so that it fails while simultaneously finding some way to short it."

right, their algorithm capitalizes on other firms' algorithms for trading. it stands to reason then that they could find themselves getting gamed by some other group that uses an algorithm to capitalize on their algorithm for trading. not seeing "cheating" here per say.

/algorithm

thomps: right, their algorithm capitalizes on other firms' algorithms for trading. it stands to reason then that they could find themselves getting gamed by some other group that uses an algorithm to capitalize on their algorithm for trading. not seeing "cheating" here per say.

I can see Weaver's point that if they have the monopolistic clout to move the market and then use their program trading advantage to suck cash out of their competitors and the only way this works is if they have 50+% of the market, then there could be a case made for anti-competitive behaviour.

If it's just that they've built a better mousetrap, I can't see it being an anti-competitive issue.

I find the scariest part that the government is arguing that the release of the program is damaging to US markets as it could be used by some group to manipulate markets in unfair ways and cause havoc on the financial sector.

But we're totally going to trust Goldman Sachs to not manipulate the market in unfair and destructive ways. Because they're the good guys. And, of course, we're not going to ask too hard how they do it, or really check up on them or anything. We'll just assume they're doing the right thing.

palladiate: I find the scariest part that the government is arguing that the release of the program is damaging to US markets as it could be used by some group to manipulate markets in unfair ways and cause havoc on the financial sector.

But we're totally going to trust Goldman Sachs to not manipulate the market in unfair and destructive ways. Because they're the good guys. And, of course, we're not going to ask too hard how they do it, or really check up on them or anything. We'll just assume they're doing the right thing.

i really hate defending goldman, but i think the argument would be that when they are using the program they are doing so under exchange and government regulation, with compliance officers and lawyer. random dudes in eastern europe would probably not be operating in a similar environment.

palladiate: But we're totally going to trust Goldman Sachs to not manipulate the market in unfair and destructive ways. Because they're the good guys. And, of course, we're not going to ask too hard how they do it, or really check up on them or anything. We'll just assume they're doing the right thing.

I just think of Goldman Sachs as the high-school quarterback and the economy as my teenage daughter on prom night.

I'm sure they'll behave when no one's watching.

Fark and double fark Goldman Sachs.

/crooks

I just think of Goldman Sachs as me and the economy as Playerslight's teenage daughter on prom night.

Jump you f**kers, jump now.

Excuse me, subby, but if their line to the Treasury has to go through AIG, doesn't that make it indirect?

elchip: I just think of Goldman Sachs as me and the economy as Playerslight's teenage daughter on prom night.

I'm pretty sure Goldman Sachs doesn't drive a '92 Taurus.

Arkanaut: Excuse me, subby, but if their line to the Treasury has to go through AIG, doesn't that make it indirect?

Ahh, that would be true if AIG wasn't merely a front for the Treasury.

/subby

thomps: i really hate defending goldman, but i think the argument would be that when they are using the program they are doing so under exchange and government regulation, with compliance officers and lawyer. random dudes in eastern europe would probably not be operating in a similar environment.

There's always regulation. It's enforcement that's the issue.

Goldman alumni throw around quite a bit of juice around the central banks and in Washington("Revolving Door" map).

I mean..enforcement is really, really, tricky.

Bored Horde: They're terrifyingly big.

Just like my shaved cock.



/haha, made you look
//can't we blame fundamentalists AND the white power elite for this?

Don't forget the abolition of mark to market allowing all the garbage on their balance sheet to dissapear.

that_other_internet: thomps: i really hate defending goldman, but i think the argument would be that when they are using the program they are doing so under exchange and government regulation, with compliance officers and lawyer. random dudes in eastern europe would probably not be operating in a similar environment.

There's always regulation. It's enforcement that's the issue.

Goldman alumni throw around quite a bit of juice around the central banks and in Washington("Revolving Door" map).

I mean..enforcement is really, really, tricky.

completely agree. regulation is way too lax and the regulators are way too close to the regulated.

As a white male employed by the international banking elite, I am gettign a kick out of...

/tight credits drove companies to secondary offerings
//investment banking drove GS profits
///this is good news, not bad
////they are WAY overcompensating for any accidental market manipulation profits by their actions
//bunch a commie whack jobs in here

Larofeticus: Don't forget the abolition of mark to market allowing all the garbage on their balance sheet to dissapear.

You don't know what you are talking about.

elchip: I just think of Goldman Sachs as me and the economy as Playerslight's teenage daughter on prom night.

and i think of us internet commentators as me hiding in elchip's bushes looking through his window at playerslight's teenage daughter on prom night.

Goldman Sachs OWNS the Treasury. Everything the Treasury does is for Goldman Sachs. Their profits are no surprise.

Weaver95: thomps: Weaver95: the part where they're cheating.

who/how are they cheating?

Have you read up on their comments regarding the theft of this trading program they've been using? It's been interesting, that's for sure:

"When US government prosecutors claim that the release of Goldman's secret sauce could potentially expose markets to manipulation, what they're really saying is that some unknown party could use it to out-manipulate Goldman, and possibly even do something more ambitious like frustrate Goldman's platform so that it fails while simultaneously finding some way to short it."

Seems to me the only party that could lose out is Goldman.
Like the article says, someone would steal their place in line.

on the one hand, one can appreciate the brilliance of a really good con, the cleverness of organized crime and the brass ballsyness of a successful thief, but at the end of the day, they are still crooks and they have your money.

Arnold T Pants: Goldman Sachs OWNS the Treasury. Everything the Treasury does is for Goldman Sachs. Their profits are no surprise.

So, did you invest in GS to take advantage of your perfect 20/20 foresight?

Ah, yes. I thought so.

Weaver95: thomps: Weaver95: Ask a better question next time.

i'm questioning your assumption that trading on market inefficiencies that would otherwise be ignored is in some way anti-competitive or unhealthy for the market.

i'm wondering why you think it's ok for someone to impose artificially created inefficiencies on the marketplace and then take advantage of the situation....

What's an "artificially created inefficiency"?

Did you know that you can arbitrage as well?

You seem to know very little about the subject, other than a very vague general notion that just gets you angry.

I just pray that obscene bonuses can now be reinstated.

Came for the South Park Treasury pic...the one with the chicken dancing on the wheel and the agent on the Kazoo. Leaving very disappointed.

Move along, citzens... Nothing to see here.

/2BIG2FAIL, amirite?

/wake up, taxpayer. Time to go to work!

Also, people, let's not forget to blame the Jews as while we are at it.

/Shazam999, good job

Record profits = record bonuses (or at least it should).

/Anti-capitalist liberal followup article and butthurt thread to follow.

Goldman makes record profits because they reward their people very well for taking calculated risks that pay off. These guys are the "A" team and lead the street.

Bank-owned broker dealers are followers, wanting to make the same amount of money but try to pay their people less. So they hire less talented individuals and take bigger risks to make up for it and typically get burned. And now that the government owns stakes in these entities they're going to try and limit compensation even further. Penny-wise, pound-foolish.

The best and brighest are at goldman or are starting/enhancing other independent dealers and are KILLING IT this year in sales and trading.

A big **** you to the government, it seems.

terryjft: I just pray that obscene bonuses can now be reinstated.

*fist bump*

/have to pay off the second mortgage on my country estate
//not kidding, suckers

griffer: //bunch a commie whack jobs in here

The actions of commie whack jobs is the only reason GS survived 2008 intact.

griffer: So, did you invest in GS to take advantage of your perfect 20/20 foresight?

That's a tough call. Do you invest in a bubble and hope it survives long enough to pull out a profit, or do you act cautiously and avoid the bubble all together? If it wasn't for AIG getting backstopped by the Treasury and covering all of GS's bets, they'd be yesterday's news, and there was no guarantee that either AIG or its bailout would continue indefinitely.

There's no ideological high ground in this argument; everyone has their hands dirty.

Clearly, any trading done using these new-fangled "Algorithms" is cheating and a blight upon all investors. Only through the Hand Picking of stocks will we return to true prosperity and gloriously Efficient markets.

tacks: Goldman makes record profits because they reward their people very well for taking calculated risks that pay off. These guys are the "A" team and lead the street.

Bank-owned broker dealers are followers, wanting to make the same amount of money but try to pay their people less. So they hire less talented individuals and take bigger risks to make up for it and typically get burned. And now that the government owns stakes in these entities they're going to try and limit compensation even further. Penny-wise, pound-foolish.

The best and brighest are at goldman or are starting/enhancing other independent dealers and are KILLING IT this year in sales and trading.

A big **** you to the government, it seems.

Yeah!

Playerslight: There's no ideological high ground in this argument

BS, I am looking down on you right now from the high ground.

griffer: Playerslight: There's no ideological high ground in this argument

BS, I am looking down on you right now from the high ground.

We can see right up your dress.

Am I the only one who is glad that GS is US-Based and not Chinese or Russian?

The business of America, is business!

I LIKE it when my fellow countrymen make obscene amounts of money. It means there might be hope for me, too. After all, rich people put their pants on one leg at a time, too, right??

America is the land of OPPORTUNITY [not guarantee]

Morton_toes: We can see right up your dress.

Shhh, my camera batteries are dead and I'm trying to find an electrical outlet.

tacks: Goldman makes record profits because they reward their people very well for taking calculated risks that pay off own the Treasury department and the Fed. It isn't hard to take risks when your pals in the government are looking out for you at every turn and will cover your losses.

A big **** you to the government taxpayers, it seems.

Ball of Confusion: Am I the only one who is glad that GS is US-Based and not Chinese or Russian?

The business of America, is business!

I LIKE it when my fellow countrymen make obscene amounts of money. It means there might be hope for me, too. After all, rich people put their pants on one leg at a time, too, right??

America is the land of OPPORTUNITY [not guarantee]

/Don't stop - Believin' (hold on to that fee-eelin')

i don't see how data mining of publicly-available data is wrong.

Has anyone else here read Tom Clancy's Debt of Honor? I'm seeing lots of correlation with the description of program trading and what's going on here.

griffer: tacks: Goldman makes record profits because they reward their people very well for taking calculated risks that pay off. These guys are the "A" team and lead the street.

Bank-owned broker dealers are followers, wanting to make the same amount of money but try to pay their people less. So they hire less talented individuals and take bigger risks to make up for it and typically get burned. And now that the government owns stakes in these entities they're going to try and limit compensation even further. Penny-wise, pound-foolish.

The best and brighest are at goldman or are starting/enhancing other independent dealers and are KILLING IT this year in sales and trading.

A big **** you to the government, it seems.

Yeah!



lol you two done with the circle jerk? ...

I am not sure this is an "unfair" advantage. It is definitely an advantage but it seems anyone with enough money could do it. The only part that seems to be unfair is that GS can afford better equipment than anyone else, thus they will be first in line. Now that their code is out there someone might write better code to undermine them. However, I think this is a bit beyond your average script kiddy.

/thinks he will be asking some aquaintenances about this program

Wizzin: tacks: Goldman makes record profits because they reward their people very well for taking calculated risks that pay off own the Treasury department and the Fed. It isn't hard to take risks when your pals in the government are looking out for you at every turn and will cover your losses.

A big **** you to the taxpayers, it seems.

Well that's where the government isn't "completely" stupid - it hires ex-Goldman guys as advisors. Shockingly it isn't full of ex-Wamu commercial bankers and tellers.

Although when we say "taxpayers" we should all be honest with ourselves about who is really paying for the bailout and all these proposed tax increases - right - the bankers who are getting **** on by the guy who pays $4 a year in tax who calls himself a taxpayer. Imagine if every dollar of tax you paid got you a vote in this country....yikes...

Weaver95: Playerslight: As long as they aren't inside trading (not that I believe they aren't) it's not technically an unfair advantage. They were gaming the programmed trading of other companies on Wall Street, which is perfectly legit. Day trading is a chump's game anyway, when you're going up against guys like that.

seems kind of unfair tho, don't you think?

*Newsflash* Life's not fair, never has been, never will be!

They gamble big and when they win they keep it and when they lose you bail them out.

That's why their right back to the same old overleveraging with borrowed money tricks that put the world in the mess it is in.

When they lose they just pick your pocket so why should they be prudent?

eqtworld: What specific part of their program trading do you have a problem with?

The part where they see actual trades pre-execution and can insert their own trade to take advantage of that knowledge.

It's called Frontrunning and is illegal.

tacks: Wizzin: tacks: Goldman makes record profits because they reward their people very well for taking calculated risks that pay off own the Treasury department and the Fed. It isn't hard to take risks when your pals in the government are looking out for you at every turn and will cover your losses.

A big **** you to the taxpayers, it seems.

Well that's where the government isn't "completely" stupid - it hires ex-Goldman guys as advisors. Shockingly it isn't full of ex-Wamu commercial bankers and tellers.

Although when we say "taxpayers" we should all be honest with ourselves about who is really paying for the bailout and all these proposed tax increases - right - the bankers who are getting **** on by the guy who pays $4 a year in tax who calls himself a taxpayer. Imagine if every dollar of tax you paid got you a vote in this country....yikes...

spare me, what percentage do the banks really pay? I mean percent of each dollar earned. The U.S. has some of the loosest corporate tax code in the world. That's why our tax rate, on paper, for corporations is much higher than Europes. What is the actual amount they pay at the end of the day? I know that the tax code for your average schlep in the U.S. isn't as loose, nor can they afford the high priced Tax accountants/attorneys.

tacks: Imagine if every dollar of tax you paid got you a vote in this country....yikes...

Well, it's obvious the country would then be run by some rich elite while lower income citizens squabbled over the scraps. I can't imagine that reality.

The horror.

Playerslight: tacks: Imagine if every dollar of tax you paid got you a vote in this country....yikes...

Well, it's obvious the country would then be run by some rich elite while lower income citizens squabbled over the scraps. I can't imagine that reality.

The horror.

*snerk*

Quiet, citizen!

/CONSUME AND SLEEP!

YouWinAgainGravity: i don't see how data mining of publicly-available data is wrong.

Doing it better than everyon else is the issue.

Morton_toes: We can see right up your dress.

Oh my, dearie me, oh my!

edg_mule: GS can afford better equipment than anyone else, thus they will be first in line.

That's wierd! It's like some kind of system that rewards capital investment.

/for lack of a better word, Investmentalism?

EnderWiggnz: The part where they see actual trades pre-execution and can insert their own trade to take advantage of that knowledge.

It's called Frontrunning and is illegal.

except that's not what they're doing. they're compiling and analyzing publicly available market data and executing trades faster than others.

griffer: That's wierd! It's like some kind of system that rewards capital investment.

/for lack of a better word, Investmentalism?

I don't know how it's possible to love and hate you simultaneously. It's like we're married.

griffer: Doing it better than everyon else is the issue.

if they were doing it with insider knowledge, i could see the problem. but the description of the program looks like it sits on real-time news and market feeds, analyzes the data, then automates transactions. it's just a highly efficient and speedy method of doing what other people can do manually.

griffer: terryjft: I just pray that obscene bonuses can now be reinstated.

*fist bump*

/have to pay off the second mortgage on my country estate
//not kidding, suckers

You're proud of your second mortgage?

/really?

tacks: Wizzin: tacks: Goldman makes record profits because they reward their people very well for taking calculated risks that pay off own the Treasury department and the Fed. It isn't hard to take risks when your pals in the government are looking out for you at every turn and will cover your losses.

A big **** you to the taxpayers, it seems.

Well that's where the government isn't "completely" stupid - it hires ex-Goldman guys as advisors. Shockingly it isn't full of ex-Wamu commercial bankers and tellers.

Although when we say "taxpayers" we should all be honest with ourselves about who is really paying for the bailout and all these proposed tax increases - right - the bankers who are getting **** on by the guy who pays $4 a year in tax who calls himself a taxpayer. Imagine if every dollar of tax you paid got you a vote in this country....yikes...

Yea, except UBS takes care of all those messy "taxes" for the poor, downtrodden banker.

griffer: YouWinAgainGravity: i don't see how data mining of publicly-available data is wrong.

Doing it better than everyon else is the issue.

Morton_toes: We can see right up your dress.

Oh my, dearie me, oh my!

edg_mule: GS can afford better equipment than anyone else, thus they will be first in line.

That's wierd! It's like some kind of system that rewards capital investment.

/for lack of a better word, Investmentalism?

I was not arguing for or against this situation but merely flatly stating the situation to put it in a clearer light. See because this situation obviously leads to a cycle. If GS does this they will always make the most profits and therefore always invest in better equipment than others. Unless someone comes along and invents a mousetrap that is not only better but changes the situation somehow, take the faster equipment out of the equation as the sole determining factor for instance, then GS will maintain dominance in perpitude. This will be a monopoly of sorts. The real question then is this sort of Monopoly bad for the economy or not. That is the question at hand, and of course no one knows.

The real problem is that we are applying modern computing technologies to systems that were developed in the days before computers that often relied on a certain physical framework and reality to maintain balance. The "exploit" GS has found is just one example of what is probably many that can be used now due to fast computing that was not physically possible when the market was first developed. This is quite true in many realms of the real world today.

There was an article in Rolling Stone about GS and why the are so successful. Did anyone else read it? I'll try to find a link to it.

edg_mule: he real problem is that we are applying modern computing technologies to systems that were developed in the days before computers that often relied on a certain physical framework and reality to maintain balance. The "exploit" GS has found is just one example of what is probably many that can be used now due to fast computing that was not physically possible when the market was first developed. This is quite true in many realms of the real world today.

Oh noes! This is going to turn into an evolution thread!

YouWinAgainGravity: except that's not what they're doing. they're compiling and analyzing publicly available market data and executing trades faster than others.

That *is* what they're doing. All trades to all markets go through GS's systems first. Where they are analyzed and trades are executed based on this info.

Why are you defending this? They're clearly gaming the system, in a high-tech, but classic illegal scheme. Are you being paid by them?

It's not innovation, its fraud.

Weaver95: yeah, but it's still not exactly a level playing field.

Waaaah life isn't fair! ;)

YouWinAgainGravity: EnderWiggnz: The part where they see actual trades pre-execution and can insert their own trade to take advantage of that knowledge.

It's called Frontrunning and is illegal.

except that's not what they're doing. they're compiling and analyzing publicly available market data and executing trades faster than others.

Sounds to me like these companies didn't learn their lesson. How quickly they seem to have gone right back to the same behavior - which almost caused a complete collapse in the economy. It's nothing but more, more, more - at any cost.

All I can say is this - if these farkers fark up, and cause the economy to go back into a tail-spin of serious losses - don't come crawling to me for another 'bail-out.'

Do the right thing - and jump out the top floor window next time.

Surely plenty of people followed the story last week of Sergey Aleynikov, a Russian computer whiz who, well, defected from the employ of Goldman Sachs, apparently taking with him the bank's proprietary trading code. There is a lot of backstory here that is key: if you've followed Zero Hedge's speculations dating back months about Goldman somehow manipulating program trading at the NYSE, this is connected to that, as the theory here is that Aleynikov stole the computer program that Goldman may have been using to manipulate the NYSE.

Such speculations until recently may have sounded like conspiracy theories, but then last week Assistant U.S. Attorney Joseph Facciponti stood up in court and let loose a whopper. "The bank has raised the possibility that there is a danger that somebody who knew how to use this program could use it to manipulate markets in unfair ways," he said.


/US Attorney..in open court

EnderWiggnz: That *is* what they're doing. All trades to all markets go through GS's systems first. Where they are analyzed and trades are executed based on this info.

Why are you defending this? They're clearly gaming the system, in a high-tech, but classic illegal scheme. Are you being paid by them?

It's not innovation, its fraud.

other than having a boatload of money to be able to afford the hardware and algorithm research, what resources or information do they have that nobody else has?

if they were purposely moving other trade orders to the back of the queue so that theirs go first, i would agree with you. but from what i've read about it, they're simply acting faster than other people.

Goldman Sachs is one of the Top contributors to Obama's Campaign.

Top Contributors to Obama (new window)

So it makes sense that Obama would give them billions in bailout money and allow them to give their executives huge bonuses.

Wait, didn't Obama always claim he was running a Clean Campaign, meaning no donations from PACS, Lobbyists, etc?????

ABC News reports:

It's been less than two days since he crossed the delegate threshold to become the Democratic presidential nominee and Sen. Barack Obama's mark on the party is already being felt.


On Good Morning America Thursday, ABC News' Chief Washington Correspondent George Stephanopoulos reported "the Democratic National Committee will no longer accept contributions from federal lobbyists, will no longer take contributions from PACs" in keeping with Obama's well-publicized policy.

Source (new window)

The hypocrisy of the Democrats and this President astounds me.

Wodheila: Jun. 18, 2009 - 7:07 AM EST

Politicians and the government are like rodents on crack when they smell money.


Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0609/23872.html#ixzz0LGHFTf8d&C


I liked that quote and how true.

grimatongueworm: "The bank has raised the possibility that there is a danger that somebody who knew how to use this program could use it to manipulate markets in unfair ways,"

Which Begs the question:
So, Mr. Goldman Sachs, how were you using this program?

grimatongueworm: Surely plenty of people followed the story last week of Sergey Aleynikov, a Russian computer whiz who, well, defected from the employ of Goldman Sachs, apparently taking with him the bank's proprietary trading code. There is a lot of backstory here that is key: if you've followed Zero Hedge's speculations dating back months about Goldman somehow manipulating program trading at the NYSE, this is connected to that, as the theory here is that Aleynikov stole the computer program that Goldman may have been using to manipulate the NYSE.

Such speculations until recently may have sounded like conspiracy theories, but then last week Assistant U.S. Attorney Joseph Facciponti stood up in court and let loose a whopper. "The bank has raised the possibility that there is a danger that somebody who knew how to use this program could use it to manipulate markets in unfair ways," he said.


/US Attorney..in open court

Yeah, I did read about that. Seems like GS is all fine and dandy with their nifty algorithm as long as they are the only ones that have it.

In the hands of another, it could be destructive (to Goldman Sachs profitability).

Morton_toes: Yeah, I did read about that. Seems like GS is all fine and dandy with their nifty algorithm as long as they are the only ones that have it.

In the hands of another, it could be destructive (to Goldman Sachs profitability).

It's kinda scary how they don't even hide their evilness anymore.

Arkanaut: Excuse me, subby, but if their line to the Treasury has to go through AIG, doesn't that make it indirect?

*patpat*

Outside of unfair trading practices that may or may not be in progress with their software.

"after repaying the government's bailout money along with $426 million in dividends to taxpayers"

So they've paid back the 10billion. As a tax payer, I'm good with what they're doing.

Morton_toes: Quiet, citizen!

/CONSUME AND SLEEP!

Yes massa.

*munch munch munch*

I'm glad Goldman showed record profits.....this means they will sooner be able to return the bail out money..........and then tell Obama and his fark disciples to go fark themselves....


hell I tell you idiots now..

GO FARK YOURSELVES.....


/most of you idiots didn't pay a DIME of bailout money anyway
//so none of this is really any of your business
///so butt the fark out and mind your own business

This is change we can beleive in. Good thing B-Rock is in there to stick up for the little guy take care of his wall street cronies.

So they'll be paying back their bailout, right?

edg_mule: Unless someone comes along and invents a mousetrap that is not only better but changes the situation somehow, take the faster equipment out of the equation as the sole determining factor for instance, then GS will maintain dominance in perpitude.

Somebody should do something to level the playing field! An "Equalization of Opportunity Bill" or something! And an "Anti-Dog-Eat-Dog Rule" for those second and third tier business getting torn apart by those who have more capital to invest their companies or a technological edge.

Playerslight: It's like we're married.

You will find I am like that, you toad licker.

Morton_toes: You're proud of your second mortgage?

Of course! I bit off more than I could chew 7 months ago, near the bottom, right before credit dried up and NO ONE would write a second.

Now, I will swallow that BIG bite and enjoy the enhanced equity returns my clever use of leverage will give me.

Then, as my equity in my house becomes ENORMOUS, I will borrow against it to buy Euros, hookers, and your Mom's house at foreclosure. I'll let you rent the house back from me at reasonable rates.

Wanna compare penises? My preferred unit is 'corvettes'. How many 'corvettes' is yours?

CrankMyBlueSax: So they'll be paying back their bailout, right?

They already did, numbnuts.

They didn't want it the first place.

Playerslight: Morton_toes: Yeah, I did read about that. Seems like GS is all fine and dandy with their nifty algorithm as long as they are the only ones that have it.

In the hands of another, it could be destructive (to Goldman Sachs profitability).

It's kinda scary how they don't even hide their evilness anymore.

Because when we all just look on and go: "Dayum! Did you see them assholes running off with those baskets of cash?", Folks like griffer are just looking back over their shoulders yelling "Suckers" and stashing 1000's of dollars in the pockets of their willing accomplices (read: politicians).

/What comes around goes around.
//more $$$$$ = more problems as far as I'm concerned.
///Karma is a beyotch.

MadAmos: So they've paid back the 10billion. As a tax payer, I'm good with what they're doing.

I find it amusing that you think it's all they've received from taxpayers. The AIG bailout is north of $180 billion now, and at least $6 billion, if not more, went directly to GS.

griffer: Wanna compare penises? My preferred unit is 'corvettes'. How many 'corvettes' is yours?

pro tip: when feigning wealth, it's best to hide your appreciation of corvettes

griffer: Wanna compare penises? My preferred unit is 'corvettes'. How many 'corvettes' is yours?

Corvettes? pshhh. Puh-leeeeese.

Maybachs.

griffer: You will find I am like that, you toad licker.

Hey, I have you know I haven't ingested any part of an amphibian since the late '80s. Detox was a biatch and all the good frogs went extinct.

For the last 20 year's I've been completely clean. Except the shrooms. But they don't really count.

crimsin23: There was an article in Rolling Stone about GS and why the are so successful. Did anyone else read it? I'll try to find a link to it.

I found the article. Everyone should read this (new window)

FTA: Senator Sherrod Brown, an Ohio Democrat, said Goldman Sachs should "show some restraint"...

I don't know if I should laugh, cry, or kick a puppy.

thomps: griffer: Wanna compare penises? My preferred unit is 'corvettes'. How many 'corvettes' is yours?

pro tip: when feigning wealth, it's best to hide your appreciation of corvettes

Pro tip: When reading satire, noticing that the author chose a cliche of small-minded and small-penised middle american men might help clue you into the author's joke.

/pro-tip? FOR ME??!?
//biatch please, aston martin or bugatti wouldn't have been FUNNY

Fark America's banking system.

I opened a very successful small business (thank you) this summer. Just for fun, I hired Bank of America to put in my credit card machine. Day before our grand opening, they deliver the wrong machine.

Then, on Monday, I see that they have EMPTIED the $200 in the business account I opened with them.

Delivered the wrong machine, stole all my money. Invest heavily in the stock market, kids. These are good people and you can count on them. The greatest generation is into greed. Greed is good.

Morton_toes: griffer: Wanna compare penises? My preferred unit is 'corvettes'. How many 'corvettes' is yours?

Corvettes? pshhh. Puh-leeeeese.

Maybachs.

Corvettes? Maybachs?

Are you serious? Might as well just claim you are packing almost half a Howard Stern.

Chevettes and Metros are the units that big units use to measure their units.

Is nobody else aware of or at least remembers that Goldman Sachs coincidentally backed and helped fund major candidates in both republican and Democrat parties this last election?

Are you also not aware that aside from this, Goldman Sachs has been one of the big pseudo-owners/rulers of America for some time now through it's political pull and financial manipulations directly affecting our government?


when will Americans fight back?

Walkenstein: when will Americans fight back?

0/10

griffer: Pro tip: When reading satire, noticing that the author chose a cliche of small-minded and small-penised middle american men might help clue you into the author's joke.

Pro-tip: Small-minded and small-penised middle-aged men aren't going to catch the joke when they're distracted by looking up your dress. You should contemplate wearing panties.

griffer: Pro tip: When reading satire, noticing that the author chose a cliche of small-minded and small-penised middle american men might help clue you into the author's joke.

/pro-tip? FOR ME??!?
//biatch please, aston martin or bugatti wouldn't have been FUNNY


if you're going to commit to a bit you need to see it through. laziness invites scorn.

/increments of penis measurement is serious business, pal

Meh. Record profits are no big deal.

Stocks are priced according to a company's profit growth rate (to a first approximation). So profits have to keep growing, at a steady rate, to even keep the stock price constant. The growth rate has to keep increasing, as long as they want the stock price to increase (and since all of the management is heavily compensated in stock, they do).

Therefore, any company that does not continually post "record profits" will see their stock price sink. So most publically-traded companies try to hit new records, by hook or by crook, every quarter.

That's Wall Street - they're always pulling themselves up by my bootstraps.

Goldman Sachs is merely a conduit for the Fed and more importantly the Rothschild Bank of International Settlements. The revolving door of GS people in recent years has been suppressed by the corporate mind control apparatus to the point the masses have no clue what is being done to us. Even if someone brings it up and exposes the rampant collusion and corruption they will be labeled "conspiracy theorists" or ignored. What GS is doing here is very similar to what the IMF and World Bank do around the world because they are all cut from the same cloth, play by the same rules and follow the same game plan/script.

thomps: laziness invites scorn

I'm not your pal, friend.

Playerslight: You should contemplate wearing panties.

I am a dude. Panties are for girls. What are you, a lumberjack?

thomps: laziness invites scorn.

Pro Tip: Personal attacks don't hide the fact that you didn't get the joke and your a idiot.

i've sent a copy of this thread to goldman sachs and their computer just bought 10 million shares in reynolds wrap aluminum foil.

YouWinAgainGravity: i've sent a copy of this thread to goldman sachs and their computer just bought 10 million shares in reynolds wrap aluminum foil.

Nice.

griffer: I am a dude. Panties are for girls.

Oh, sorry. It's kinda hard to tell from down here.

What are you, a lumberjack?

Yes, actually. And due to the danger of getting caught by falling trees, I refuse to wear either underwear or pants. I also carry a bucket of lard with me, just in case.

turdmist: Goldman Sachs is merely a conduit for the Fed and more importantly the Rothschild Bank of International Settlements. The revolving door of GS people in recent years has been suppressed by the corporate mind control apparatus to the point the masses have no clue what is being done to us. Even if someone brings it up and exposes the rampant collusion and corruption they will be labeled "conspiracy theorists" or ignored. What GS is doing here is very similar to what the IMF and World Bank do around the world because they are all cut from the same cloth, play by the same rules and follow the same game plan/script.

LYNDON LAROUCHE IS RIGHT!

Just STFU all of you and file your 1040.

If this ride goes off the rails again, we're gonna need a lot of ready capital to get things back on track again and all of your biatching and whining isn't helping.

How, as a country, will we be able to maintain our well deserved reputaion as a global resource suck if our bankers are not bloated and pampered sophisticates that embody the very philosophy of overconsumption!

/Think people, THINK!

griffer: Pro Tip: Personal attacks don't hide the fact that you didn't get the joke and your a idiot.

eh, the internet's a big anonymous place, i can't be expected to be able to sort all of the douchebags from the people that are just pretending to be douchebags.

griffer: LYNDON LAROUCHE IS RIGHT!

Lyndon can take his farking 'physical economy' and shove it up his gaping arse.

Playerslight: It's kinda hard to tell from down here.

If you can't see my corvette a mere fifty stories up, you might think about tapping medicaid for some glasses.

And I will thank you to call it a KILT, or I'll hafta come down there and clock you one.

griffer: thomps: laziness invites scorn.

Pro Tip: Personal attacks don't hide the fact that you didn't get the joke and your a idiot.


No, your and idiot, moran.

thomps: eh, the internet's a big anonymous place, i can't be expected to be able to sort all of the douchebags from the people that are just pretending to be douchebags.

Jeezus. Way to bend over me and offer me your 'sister' like a desperate prison biatch.

That wasn't any fun at all.

I guess we have to man hug now, and I will awkwardly avoid noticing your little .02 corvette woody.

griffer: If you can't see my corvette a mere fifty stories up, you might think about tapping medicaid for some glasses.

Oh, you're calling *that* a corvette? Well, then I assume you can see my Peterbilt from up there.

eqtworld: Weaver95: I'm not saying they were not or that such a thing would surprise me, I'm just not sure what specific trading method they used that was cheating

read.

I know someone stole part of their automated trading program.

But that's like saying if I steal the code from a program you are writing, it means you were cheating because you were writing a program.

Are you saying it should be against the law to use a trading program?

The issue arises because the story goes that the software sniffs trade packets at the NYSE and then trades on that knowledge since Goldman's servers are fast and closer to the NYSE they essentially act as a middle man in all trades. However it's only when the software that sets them up to be middlemen gets stolen that it comes out that someone else could get it, and be middlemen or more concerningly come pretty close to cornering the NYSE.

Morton_toes: griffer: thomps: laziness invites scorn.

Pro Tip: Personal attacks don't hide the fact that you didn't get the joke and your a idiot.


No, your and idiot, moran.

The only people who biatch about the rich are pour loosers.

Shut up, you pour looser!

Playerslight: griffer: If you can't see my corvette a mere fifty stories up, you might think about tapping medicaid for some glasses.

Oh, you're calling *that* a corvette? Well, then I assume you can see my Peterbilt from up there.

Oh, sniff my packet, plebeian!

griffer: Oh, sniff my packet, plebeian!

Ewww. You know, they make a cream that can clear up that dead dog and rotting milk smell in like a week, tops.

Playerslight: griffer: Oh, sniff my packet, plebeian!

Ewww. You know, they make a cream that can clear up that dead dog and rotting milk smell in like a week, tops.

That's not my packet, that's my Haggis, ya twit.

Wait.

This got weird.

edg_mule: If GS does this they will always make the most profits and therefore always invest in better equipment than others. Unless someone comes along and invents a mousetrap

If I were in charge of GS there would be patents on the idea of program trading. Then it wouldn't matter if someone tried to hone in on my Mechanized Market Masturbation I can just sue their ass into line. Then again that whole area is incestuous as hell so who knows.

Weaver95: Didn't Goldman-Sachs just admit that their super secret computerized trading program gave them an unfair market advantage?

if they needed a bailout it wasn't that good.

griffer: That's not my packet, that's my Haggis, ya twit.

Why the hell would you shove your haggis up there? How did you even get it *in* there?

what is the ROI the american people will see on their investment?

griffer: Wait.

This got weird.

Yeah, sorry. I gotta run and actually finish some real work anyway.

Until the next commie/thieving bastard thread then.

Playerslight: griffer: Wait.

This got weird.

Yeah, sorry. I gotta run and actually finish some real work anyway.

Until the next commie/thieving bastard thread then.

ZU BEFEHL!

/bis spater

griffer: ZU BEFEHL!

/bis spater

L8R, my moral superior.

edg_mule: spare me, what percentage do the banks really pay? I mean percent of each dollar earned. The U.S. has some of the loosest corporate tax code in the world. That's why our tax rate, on paper, for corporations is much higher than Europes. What is the actual amount they pay at the end of the day? I know that the tax code for your average schlep in the U.S. isn't as loose, nor can they afford the high priced Tax accountants/attorneys.

I was going more along the lines of personal tax payers. I don't disagree that corporations and rich (let's call it $1mm+ per annum) are the most efficient at tax reduction, but the guys funding this whole thing are mid-level bankers or top-tier income earners in other careers who are in the mid-six figure range. The moral of the story is a barbell - be extremely successful or extremely lazy.

Article from RS regarding GS (new window)

Forgot about the FDIC-backed loans to the tune of at least $20 billion, subby. Not to mention mark-to-magic accounting and leveraging up the hilt (learn the term VaR) betting on (most likely) commodities, stock in energy companies, REITS (upgraded by them in April, but they'll surely be downgraded soon) stock in financials, arbitrage plays in near-bankrupt penny stocks and of course, fun with derivatives (new window).

Let's just hope it doesn't blowup LCTM style.

griffer: Morton_toes: griffer: thomps: laziness invites scorn.

Pro Tip: Personal attacks don't hide the fact that you didn't get the joke and your a idiot.


No, your and idiot, moran.

The only people who biatch about the rich are pour loosers.

Shut up, you pour looser!

Hay their! Hold up, I'm not biatching about rich people! I'm just biatching about you!

TAA DAA!!

Playerslight: Weaver95: Didn't Goldman-Sachs just admit that their super secret computerized trading program gave them an unfair market advantage?

As long as they aren't inside trading (not that I believe they aren't) it's not technically an unfair advantage. They were gaming the programmed trading of other companies on Wall Street, which is perfectly legit. Day trading is a chump's game anyway, when you're going up against guys like that.

No, but they're probably front-running - at least their own clients - and that's usually a big no-no. There's some speculation that they're front-running ALL NYSE trading though I'm not going down that particular rabbit hole in tinfoil-hat territory.

Plus they tend to 'pump and dump' - REITS for example - though they've yet to dump - activities that would get a one-man outfit touting penny-stocks shut down by the SEC.

Morton_toes: griffer: Morton_toes: griffer: thomps: laziness invites scorn.

Pro Tip: Personal attacks don't hide the fact that you didn't get the joke and your a idiot.


No, your and idiot, moran.

The only people who biatch about the rich are pour loosers.

Shut up, you pour looser!

Hay their! Hold up, I'm not biatching about rich people! I'm just biatching about you!

You fail at spelling, therefore I win.

GOODNIGHT, SIR!

kittylittle: 'pump and dump'

Aw, prom.

Also, LTCM, not LCTM.

I can't waste time arguing with people who can' remember that it was called Long Term Capital Managers.

Weaver95: Didn't Goldman-Sachs just admit that their super secret computerized trading program gave them an unfair market advantage?

Been going on since all this bailout shiat went down. Honest people who watch the market have been commenting for months on how the market is being manipulated by... someone?

I've been out for some time now and won't get back in until the shenanigans appear to ease. This will mean watching the Dow head below 6500, where it belongs.

GAT_00: Weaver95: seems kind of unfair tho, don't you think?

How are you arguing against that? Goldman Sacks is playing the system.


There, I fixed it.

Marcus Aurelius: a direct line to the US Treasury through AIG Hank Paulson and Tim Geithner

Yup. None other than Turbo Tim and Hanky Panky.

It's a great game if you're in complete control of the outcome. Otherwise, need to find another game that hasn't, in effect, become corrupted.

griffer: Wait.

This got weird.

yeah, basically you guys were e-tongue kissing there for a while

hockeyfarker: griffer: Wait.

This got weird.

yeah, basically you guys were e-tongue kissing there for a while

And you know this because you were watching, fist deep in a bucket of fishoil cranking away.

Also, TOPIC DESTROYED, SUCK IT TIN FOIL LOONIES! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

/basemetal uses chicks
//i just get weird and gay

griffer: //i just get weird and gay

you're not kidding.

griffer: And you know this because you were watching, fist deep in a bucket of fishoil cranking away.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.


griffer: Also, TOPIC DESTROYED, SUCK IT TIN FOIL LOONIES! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

I FAVOUR GREATER MARKET REGULATION AND MORE ATTENTION SHOULD BE PAID TO POTENTIAL CONFLICTS OF INTEREST THAT GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS MAY HAVE

I notice the other thread about GS disappeared into totalfark -- the one about how they've been intimately involved in every bubble for the last 100 years.

hockeyfarker: I FAVOUR BLAH, BLAH, BLAH....

You quoted me three times. That's like e-head and you totally e-swallowed!

THANKS, STUD!

Where's the outrage?!
Where's the blood in the streets?

Right. America's become complacent, and I'm too broke to care.

I just e-came on Becky's face, but only because she begged me to let her e-swallow it

WRX_Smokescreen: Where's the outrage?!
Where's the blood in the streets?

Right. America's become complacent, and I'm too broke to care.

0/10

Dude, not cool.

/RIP, Becky
//e-spect her memory you ass

WRX_Smokescreen: Where's the outrage?!
Where's the blood in the streets?

Right. America's become complacent, and I'm too broke to care.

Pipe down and pay your taxes, citizen!

This doesn't concern you, and anyway, it's far too complicated for your poor (and by poor, I mean not wealthy) little brain to digest. We're too big to fail, but Oh, BTW, do you think you could spot us a few Billion till next Friday? KTHNXBAI!

When Becky is famous and popular, then I will respect her memory.

DAMN YOU, KING OF POP!

DAAAAAAAAAAAMN YOU!

turdmist: Goldman Sachs is merely a conduit for the Fed and more importantly the Rothschild Bank of International Settlements. The revolving door of GS people in recent years has been suppressed by the corporate mind control apparatus to the point the masses have no clue what is being done to us. Even if someone brings it up and exposes the rampant collusion and corruption they will be labeled "conspiracy theorists" or ignored. What GS is doing here is very similar to what the IMF and World Bank do around the world because they are all cut from the same cloth, play by the same rules and follow the same game plan/script.

How do the Five Jew Bankers and the Bilderbergers tie into this?

bidness: How do the Five Jew Bankers and the Bilderbergers tie into this?

Certainly not with knotzies.

and we thought Socialism for the Wealthy wouldn't work....


Let's celebrate!


PS -- 1% of the world's population owns 80% of the world's Wealth.

have a nice day!

Chances are that most of these higher-than-expected profits came out of thin air.

1) Difficult-to-value assets like bundled-mortgage derivatives were previously valued at market value as per mark-to-market regulations. This caused massive losses at the banks last year when the market finally realized that those packaged sub-prime loans were worthless (whodathunkit?).

2) Goldman Sachs and other banks lobbied politicians to get those regulations changed.

3) Politicians threatened regulators.

4) Regulators instate new accounting rules saying that those difficult-to-value assets can be valued with significant judgment exercised by banks, ie. they get valued at whatever the hell the bank wants to value them at.

5) Massive profit.

Link (new window)

And most of you thought the Community Reinvestment Act was just to help put under privileged people into their very own homes.

/you are just so cute.
//wants to sell you a bridge in NY.
///shoot, you've already bought it. darn you GS!!

tactical nuke + wall street = everyone wins

tacks: Goldman makes record profits because they reward their people very well for taking calculated risks that pay off.

They are very smart. And it is easy to take risks with a huge safety net. These two things combined are the reason GS is so profitable. If they weren't smart they wouldn't be able to put themselves in positions to profit. If the government wasn't there to prop up their "calculated risks" (either directly or indirectly) they would be swimming in red ink more often than they do now.

Weaver95: look - like any good libertarian capitalist, I believe that competition leads to healthy markets. Remove competition, and you get stagnation, monopolies and market distortions. It just seems to me that Goldman-Sachs has found a quasi-legal way to eliminate competition and nobody seems to care.

As usual, I agree in part.

The truth is Goldman Sachs has always operated will within the rules, they just are way better at it than anyone else. Sort of like how Michael Jordan would play within the rules but was famous for pushing off like a motherfarker.

Also, Goldman's numbers are huge because the federal government took their biggest competition out to the shed and shot them (Bear Stearns, etc). It's pretty easy to make good money on transactions when all the lower priced large firms are six feet underground.

That being said, I'm glad at least one beneficiary of government money will pay back soon.

And for those in love with your new president, do you think it's a coincidence that Obama (whom i voted for) received the most in donations from employees of Goldman Sachs?

it's called FRONTRUNNING and it's not just 'unfair' or 'unethical' it's indisputably ILLEGAL.

They're (allegedly) using algorithms and server proximity to front run both their clients and the market in general. But it's all good - their main man Timmy G. is in da hizzouse.

/Pitchforks / Torches '12, bitaches.

beanx: it's called FRONTRUNNING and it's not just 'unfair' or 'unethical' it's indisputably ILLEGAL.

They're (allegedly) using algorithms and server proximity to front run both their clients and the market in general. But it's all good - their main man Timmy G. is in da hizzouse.

/Pitchforks / Torches '12, bitaches.

Once upon a time you dressed so fine/
Through the bums a dime in your prime, didn't you?
Peopled call, say, beware doll, you're bound to fall/
You thought they were all kiddin you.

thomps: i really hate defending goldman, but i think the argument would be that when they are using the program they are doing so under exchange and government regulation, with compliance officers and lawyer.

Just like Enron was.

United States of Goldman Sachs.

The Great American Bubble Machine (new window)

Why so much hating on Goldman?

Well, when they pay back TARP, including what they got funneled through AIG, and they can state that profit without mark-to-fantasy, then I will be impressed.

They didn't make shiat, it is ALL our tax dollars, and we are on the hook for the trillions of their toxic waste yet to implode. They will shove those contracts onto the taxpayer before they unwind.

griffer: i just get weird and gay

QFT

Combustible Elvis: griffer: i just get weird and gay

QFT

Suck it, buddy.

;-)

griffer: Combustible Elvis: griffer: i just get weird and gay

QFT

Suck it, buddy.

;-)

You litering now as well then?

"I just don't understand why the country, or a working person in Michigan, Ohio or Kansas, would cheer against Goldman doing well just because the government invested in Goldman at a time when the financial markets were in chaos."

Maybe because the rich stay rich and get richer off the interest the average working stiff pays?

finabuddy: Why so much hating on Goldman?

Because its the fault of rich people, that not-rich people are not rich.

I'm just glad we could help a struggling company out...

I'm thinking happy happy thoughts of my elected officials while my friends lose their jobs and houses

finabuddy: Why so much hating on Goldman?

because the government uses threat of violence against us while giving special favors to goldman sachs. Goldman sachs only buys off elected office holders and has its people appointed throughout the federal government.

There are two ways to wealth. Providing goods and services your fellow man is willing to pay for and the political means through the government. Goldman-sachs uses the later.

edg_mule: /thinks he will be asking some aquaintenances about this program

Man go for it,

If you can afford the membership fees for the exchange, the subscription fees for the less-than-one-millisecond delivered market data, the physical connection on the private network, and can pass the exam to trade on a myriad of exchanges, please feel free to hire me to constantly upgrade the "program" as the constant and disparate exchange API updates are released.

I do this for a living and can probably take care of a few primary markets or a dozen MTF for you. I know about 15 other guys making twice as much as you do if you want to hire them as well to cover the rest of the markets (on one continent anyway)

Weaver95: thomps: Weaver95: i'm wondering why you think it's ok for someone to impose artificially created inefficiencies on the marketplace and then take advantage of the situation....

how are they imposing inefficiencies? from what i can tell they are just taking advantage of inefficiencies caused by the trading rules of other firms.

wrong.

I implore you to shut up. It's embarrassing.

First of all, marking each and every trade as coming from a algo desk is redundant, a waste of bandwidth, and a grossly inefficient way of doing it.

Increasingly the trend is to develop a low latency exchange interface specifically to accommodate this type of trading.

Of the exchanges that actually give a shiat, this is usually done based on trader/userid. A specific user id will be registered as an electronic order routing system, algorithmic trading system, or automated quoting system. Usually an actual human trader will additionally be assigned and legally responsible for all trades that result and may be required to be physically present depending on the venue.

While algo trading is usually based on speed (taking advantage of market inefficiencies), it is also based on strategy. If I decide to bet my money by trading at an offset of +/-0.05% from the last trade price, I need a computer to do that. I can't call in to market operations to manually amend every trade when there are hundreds or thousands happening every second.

Your argument is like saying that its unfair for taco bell to use electronic registers because the hepatitis-ridden street vendor does everything in his head.

Every major investment bank down to the shiattiest little brokers do this. It's not just goldman.

It's not cheating to automate your strategy... but you can get severely farked if the competition knows the nitty gritty of your logic.