jigger: XX = female

XY = male

If you are XY, then you are a male. If you are XY and take artificial hormones and have your penis surgically transformed into a "vagina," then you are still a male. But, now you have a mutilated penis.

Does it really matter to you that much?

Be pragmatic.

If she lived as a boy, she'd be a lousy one. She'd be a guy with pathetically girly tastes, watching his body get hairy and develop a gruff voice. The emotional reaction to these undesired changes would be suicide.

To put it bluntly: imagine if you grew tits, how would you feel? Not those flabby moobs you have, I mean real knockers. And imagine it happened to you as a loner teenaged boy.

The result is generally suicide. But society prefers suicide - we don't have to watch suicides walk down the street, reminded that some people are, well, freaks. We don't have to pay for their hormones. We just bury them, comfort their grieving moms, and forget they existed.

Be pragmatic. Instead of what I described above, he gets to become a hot chick. Not just a hot chick, an awesome one. She's sexy, famous, and a pop-star. Obviously, that's not everybody, but it sure as hell worked out well for her.

Just because her chromosomes say different, and her vagina was sculpted by a surgeon, you're going to say it's farking wrong? Who gives a shiat.

Just look at her and tell me the results aren't wonderful.

WhyteRaven74: jigger: If you are XY, then you are a male

Even if the single gene on the Y chromosome that triggers male development is defective and thus that development never occurs resulting in a female body?

No, then you are a genetic fark up and you are neither male nor female.

Pxtl,

No, I'm not saying it's wrong. Hey, it's their body, they can mutilate it all they want.

jigger: XX = female

XY = male

If you are XY, then you are a male. If you are XY and take artificial hormones and have your penis surgically transformed into a "vagina," then you are still a male. But, now you have a mutilated penis.

Except that's not always true. See Swyer Syndrome and Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, which can cause XY females; there are others as well.

jigger: No, then you are a genetic fark up and you are neither male nor female.

And the entire medical community would like to inform you that you are wrong.

WhyteRaven74: jigger: No, then you are a genetic fark up and you are neither male nor female.

And the entire medical community would like to inform you that you are wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swyer_syndrome

Swyer syndrome, or XY gonadal dysgenesis, is a type of hypogonadism in which no functional gonads are present to induce puberty in an externally female [looking] person whose karyotype is then found to be XY. The gonads are found to be nonfunctional streaks. Estrogen and progesterone therapy is usually then commenced. The gonads are normally removed surgically because they do not function and may develop cancer.

jigger: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swyer_syndrome

Functional gonads are not the issue. Any doctors seeing someone with Swyer syndrome would consider the person female.

If you are XY, then you are a male. If you are XY and take artificial hormones and have your penis surgically transformed into a "vagina," then you are still a male. But, now you have a mutilated penis.

Yes, because genetics is everything about you. Please grab a biology book or something. Your stupid, it burns.

No, then you are a genetic fark up and you are neither male nor female.

I'm willing to wager that more than half of the women you fap to have an XY genotype, bright guy. XY Females generally express traits which are advantages in the modeling industry; generally speaking, tall and thin with nice legs and pert boobies. A disproportionate amount of women involved in producing those sexy photos guys love have an XY genotype. So enjoy-- by your own definition, you're bi.

jigger:

Someone with Swyer Syndrome and AIS should then "mutilate" their body by adding a penis?

jigger: No, then you are a genetic fark up and you are neither male nor female.

Refer to the diagram I've posted above on genetic sex determination -- you are vastly oversimplifying everything. Furthermore, there's no such thing as a genetic fark up, it's an artificial distinction that you've made which doesn't actually exist.

And seriously, unless you're karyotyping everyone you meet, I think you're full of crap. You're just pulling at straws because you're uncomfortable with the idea of someone who was born into a male body becoming a valid, even attractive female. Look, you don't judge whether someone is female by looking at their karyotype; if you're a normal person, you make this judgment based on appearance and anatomy (which externally will look 100% female in this case). The genetic argument is a terrible one to rationalize your discomfort unless you have a compulsion to karyotype everyone you encounter, try something else next time.

/I'm an actual geneticist. Get the f*ck off my lawn.

jigger: No, I'm not saying it's wrong. Hey, it's their body, they can mutilate it all they want.

How very enlightened of you. Just out of curiosity, are you also the enlightened type who also believes in legalising gay marriage, or do you beleive that freaks should not be allowed to be married at all since that may foul the gene pool?

WhyteRaven74: jigger: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swyer_syndrome

Functional gonads are not the issue. Any doctors seeing someone with Swyer syndrome would consider the person female.

Is Ru Paul a female because he looks like one?

Yes or no.

I take back the thing about not being male or female.

The Swyers Syndrome people are males with broken Y chromosomes.

XX = female
XY = male

If you want to say that someone is male or female just because of the way they look, then Ru Paul is a female.

zoips: jigger:

Someone with Swyer Syndrome and AIS should then "mutilate" their body by adding a penis?

Of course not. If they want to live without cancer, then they should probably mutilate their gonadal streaks.

jigger: Is Ru Paul a female because he looks like one?

Get Ru Paul naked and he's not going to look female. Get someone with Swyer syndrome naked, and they'll look female.

WhyteRaven74: jigger: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swyer_syndrome

Functional gonads are not the issue. Any doctors seeing someone with Swyer syndrome would consider the person female.

Uhh, it has been awhile since biology but I thought we all start out female and if your DNA says your supposed to be Male, your ovaries end up dropping and becoming testicles. The clitoris lengthens into what becomes the head of the penis.

wild9: Uhh, it has been awhile since biology but I thought we all start out female and if your DNA says your supposed to be Male, your ovaries end up dropping and becoming testicles. The clitoris lengthens into what becomes the head of the penis.

That's the basic gist of things. As with everything though, there are more nuanced and complex mechanics behind the simple explanation.

WhyteRaven74: jigger: Is Ru Paul a female because he looks like one?

Get Ru Paul naked and he's not going to look female. Get someone with Swyer syndrome naked, and they'll look female.

Let's go even further.

Take a tissue sample and check to see if they have XX or XY chromosomes.

wild9: it has been awhile since biology but I thought we all start out female and if your DNA says your supposed to be Male, your ovaries end up dropping and becoming testicles

If the required genetic trigger for male development isn't present, or other issues arise, then that development never occurs.

Barry McCackiner: jigger: XX = female

XY = male

If you are XY, then you are a male. If you are XY and take artificial hormones and have your penis surgically transformed into a "vagina," then you are still a male. But, now you have a mutilated penis.

So what is your point? Wow, so you have specific chromosomes, big deal. No one cares about chromosomes, people care about appearance and genitals.

I care about both, actually. But I'm old-fashioned that way.

Penis

Is she happy? Than that's all that matters. To hell with what biology or some outdated book says.

jigger: Pxtl,

No, I'm not saying it's wrong. Hey, it's their body, they can mutilate it all they want.

jigger: No, then you are a genetic fark up and you are neither male nor female.

Actually, you are.

jigger: Take a tissue sample and check to see if they have XX or XY chromosomes.

Oddly enough, even doing a cursory check of the literature, there are references to XY females and XX males aka de la Chapelle syndrome. Funny that doctors keep using the terms female and male based upon external appearance and not genetics.

WhyteRaven74: Oddly enough, even doing a cursory check of the literature, there are references to XY females and XX males aka de la Chapelle syndrome.

Huh?

Ed Grubermann: www.aolcdn.com

*golf clap*

/also would've accepted the work of photographer David LaChapelle

I think some people need to watch this:

Link (new window)

Used this for my Gender Identity Disorder speech for my Psychology class. It really gives you an idea on how one who has it feels.

Froman: get past the fact that you think transgenderism is weird

Much in the same way multiple personalities and schizophrenia are weird. It's not an oddity, it's a mental disease.

morgantx: Savoir-Faire: You know, if I could change, I would. It seems to me that the ladies really have it, at least while they're young. They're just so crushingly beautiful, I can't comprehend it. I'd have to be attractive though.

More that that, really, is I have convinced myself that women can do what they want and men cannot. I'm so constrained by the conventions of masculinity that I can't have fun or live in the moment. So much seems unattainable. I just don't understand how they manage to have so much fun.

It's probably all in my head.

It's all in your head. I'm a girl who greatly prefers the company and friendship of men. Women are petty and cruel. You can't just dress however you want to around women or else you'll be the butt of all their jokes and you'll be outcast and ostracized permanently. You can't do anything different or step outside the lines. You can't laugh too loud or sit comfortably or play rough or have any fun.

And in my waning years, when the lines start to show on my face and my breasts begin to succumb to gravity (as they inevitably will), I'll be that hideous old woman down the street that nobody wants to even visit, whereas my husband can get fat, wrinkled, and crotchety, and everyone will still think he's pretty cool. Aging is harder on women than it will ever be for men.
=============

Yeah, but while young life is much easier for women. Free drinks, and tons of attention.

Enjoy it while it lasts!

Cody

ZeroCorpse: f it acts like a cute girl, and looks like a cute girl, and makes love like a cute girl, then it must be a cute girl your honor.

bumkusfiveal: you cant cure the ghey its natural nature doesnt make mistakes, OOOHHHHHHHH you want to whack off the penis yea we can do that nature made a mistake.

me thinks the older sisters tortured poor little BOY about his penis. or HE never got over his vagina envy

i am going home to the 50's. fark all you enlightened ones.

This.

/that is all.

jigger: No, then you are a genetic fark up and you are neither male nor female.

This.
You think a lower back tattoo is going to look bad when you get old, just wait.

Cthulhu Theory: //if it were an abomination unto god, why would he allow his creation to be so malleable?

If it was wrong to murder people, why is it so easy to do?
Makes as much sense.

Hoopido: This.

You realize that it's impossible to be born neither male or female right? Even being born intersexed doesn't qualify.

So you have a boy that says "mom, I think I'm really a girl". Mom says "okay, let's cut off your junk and put you on all sorts of crazy drugs"

Yeah, sounds like responsible parenting to me.

Perhaps this boy is just gay and likes other boys and as such, thinks he's a girl.

It's a mad mad world...

Hoopido: Makes as much sense.

That was arguably one of the worst attempts at equivalence I have ever seen in my life. No, it was the worst.

Codyl: So you have a boy that says "mom, I think I'm really a girl". Mom says "okay, let's cut off your junk and put you on all sorts of crazy drugs"

Just too bad for you that's not how it works.

Pxtl: The emotional reaction to these undesired changes would be suicide.

So the problem is self correcting even. Solved.

Codyl: So you have a boy that says "mom, I think I'm really a girl". Mom says "okay, let's cut off your junk and put you on all sorts of crazy drugs"

Yeah, sounds like responsible parenting to me.

Perhaps this boy is just gay and likes other boys and as such, thinks he's a girl.

It's a mad mad world...

Gender has nothing to do with who is sexual attractive to. There are some transgendered who go male to female that are attracted to sex. Either way they know and at a young age, it doesn't matter how they got Gender Identity Disorder. It is a matter what is best for that person who has it.

So now there's a manufactured vagina on a 16 year old boy. If one of its male teachers tapped it, would it be like using a blowup doll or would he have to have a seat over there?

Whyte: Why is that too bad for me? I know fark is a PC zone but this should be over the top even for the progressive live-and-let-live if-it-feels-good-do-it fark crowd

Hoopido: So the problem is self correcting even. Solved.

Utter lack of empathy is usually not a trait to display when questioning others' mental status.

Codyl: Whyte: Why is that too bad for me?

Cause how it actually works turns your argument into nothing more than knuckle dragging.

"Knuckle dragging" ? Really? That's all you have?

This poor boy is screwed up. I feel sorry for him. The fact is mom isn't being a mom and the meida calls him a her isn't helping.

Codyl: "Knuckle dragging" ? Really? That's all you have?

This poor boy is screwed up. I feel sorry for him. The fact is mom isn't being a mom and the meida calls him a her isn't helping.

I think the mom is, she took her child to a bunch of people in the psychology world, and they diagnosed Kim, and said was best for the child. The surgery and the hormone therapy wouldn't of went through if it wasn't for doctors approving it.

The bigotry and ignorance in this thread is baffling.

Yes this is fark, but seriously people really need to get a clue.

If you don't understand the difference between being transgender/transsexual and being gay, then don't bother posting.

If you don't understand how someone is happier living their life as what gender they really feel, versus whatever gender he or she was born as, then don't bother posting.

I've seen other news articles about her (and on fark as well), and I say kudos to her. I'm so happy for her!

Codyl: I feel sorry for him.

She's now happy and content with her life. Why would you feel sorry for someone in that state?

I like the people here who believe that drinking a 6 pack of Natty Ice before surfing Fark makes them more of an expert on gender, psychology, medicine and sexuality than people who actually... I dunno, study this shiat for a living?

Codyl: Yeah, but while young life is much easier for women. Free drinks, and tons of attention.

Harder professionally, though. I've lost track of the number of times that colleagues have been talking to my tits in serious meetings. The worst is when you're trying to discuss a business proposal and your superior interrupts you to make comments about your appearance. Um, excuse me? Or the guy below me who had problems taking direction from me because I'm a woman, and then tried to hit on me right after dismissing my requests. That was classic. Hope he likes being unemployed.

I dress conservatively and I comport myself professionally, yet I still have to fight tooth and nail to be taken seriously. I hate it. I've had to become a real dragon around the douchebags who can't handle working with women. Not fun.

And if we go back further than that, I can tell you about the sexist teacher who docked my grade because I turned down his flirtatious advances by telling him that I was engaged. Awesome.

And what's the trade off? Some skeezy guys at the bar will buy me a drink? Yeah, great.


/note: I don't mean to imply that all guys I work with are creeps, because most of them are awesome and treat me like any other employee. But those ones that don't respect me really make things difficult...and I don't want to cry "sexual harassment" because that's pretty much a blacklist for life. I've learned to put them in their place by calling them out instead. :) Hooray.

kunibob: Codyl: Yeah, but while young life is much easier for women. Free drinks, and tons of attention.

Harder professionally, though. I've lost track of the number of times that colleagues have been talking to my tits in serious meetings. The worst is when you're trying to discuss a business proposal and your superior interrupts you to make comments about your appearance. Um, excuse me? Or the guy below me who had problems taking direction from me because I'm a woman, and then tried to hit on me right after dismissing my requests. That was classic. Hope he likes being unemployed.

I dress conservatively and I comport myself professionally, yet I still have to fight tooth and nail to be taken seriously. I hate it. I've had to become a real dragon around the douchebags who can't handle working with women. Not fun.

And if we go back further than that, I can tell you about the sexist teacher who docked my grade because I turned down his flirtatious advances by telling him that I was engaged. Awesome.

And what's the trade off? Some skeezy guys at the bar will buy me a drink? Yeah, great.


/note: I don't mean to imply that all guys I work with are creeps, because most of them are awesome and treat me like any other employee. But those ones that don't respect me really make things difficult...and I don't want to cry "sexual harassment" because that's pretty much a blacklist for life. I've learned to put them in their place by calling them out instead. :) Hooray.

Oh, and as a PS, I'm only about a 6 or 7 out of 10, so I can't imagine what the hot chicks have to put up with. Seems like most young women have to put up with a lot of shiat in their professional careers.