Talk about your manufactured pop stars.

who?

FTFA "but Kim is a very persuasive girl. She knows what she wants and how to get it"

I bet she does.

Chiacks with Diacks ?

It's A Trap!

Would hit it with or without the peener.

If I want to hit that, does that mean I have teh ghey?

I would, of course, have to see her naked first before I decide, just to make sure everything was put together correctly.

I wonder if blanket will become the youngest pop star who also doubles as a psychopathic killer.

Hell i think that the fact that his name is blanket gives him a good ol American right to get away with murder.

You know, if I could change, I would. It seems to me that the ladies really have it, at least while they're young. They're just so crushingly beautiful, I can't comprehend it. I'd have to be attractive though.

More that that, really, is I have convinced myself that women can do what they want and men cannot. I'm so constrained by the conventions of masculinity that I can't have fun or live in the moment. So much seems unattainable. I just don't understand how they manage to have so much fun.

It's probably all in my head.

Apples01: If I want to hit that, does that mean I have teh ghey?

I would, of course, have to see her naked first before I decide, just to make sure everything was put together correctly.

Dude. She's still 16, this isn't a G8 summit.

Uh. . . 16? They gave her the operation at 16? What the fark? Unless there are some major extenuating circumstance, like the kid was a hermaphrodite and her parents chose one gender but she favored another, that seems pretty reckless and could backfire on the poor kid.

Wait... Tim used to be Kim?

I bet s/he'd kick Molly Cyrus' ass in a foxy boxing fight. Would I pay to see it? No comment.

Savoir-Faire: You know, if I could change, I would. It seems to me that the ladies really have it, at least while they're young. They're just so crushingly beautiful, I can't comprehend it. I'd have to be attractive though.

More that that, really, is I have convinced myself that women can do what they want and men cannot. I'm so constrained by the conventions of masculinity that I can't have fun or live in the moment. So much seems unattainable. I just don't understand how they manage to have so much fun.

It's probably all in my head.



/Link is hotter than Erik Estrada was in the 70's

He's really cute...


Shame it's just another homosexual that wanted to be the catcher rather than the pitcher....He's a very talented popstar I'm sure

But you know what - it's a slap in the face to God the almighty. For the Bible says we are here on this earth to have children. To do this is an abomination - and he will burn in the eternal flames of hell for all time...

What a sick sick person he is

Tits or GTFO.

Just sayin'

It takes balls to get a sex change.

No, wait...

Dwight256: I bet s/he'd kick Molly Cyrus' ass in a foxy boxing fight. Would I pay to see it? No comment.

Molly Cyrus? The chick from Neuromancer?

Quantum Apostrophe: Dwight256: I bet s/he'd kick Molly Cyrus' ass in a foxy boxing fight. Would I pay to see it? No comment.

Molly Cyrus? The chick from Neuromancer?

Miley, Molly, it's all the same after enough beer.

buk110: He's really cute...


Shame it's just another homosexual that wanted to be the catcher rather than the pitcher....He's a very talented popstar I'm sure

But you know what - it's a slap in the face to God the almighty. For the Bible says we are here on this earth to have children. To do this is an abomination - and he will burn in the eternal flames of hell for all time...

What a sick sick person he is

gay bash
religious overtones
intolerance

6/10, strong effort

Savoir-Faire: You know, if I could change, I would.
...

More that that, really, is I have convinced myself that women can do what they want and men cannot. I'm so constrained by the conventions of masculinity that I can't have fun or live in the moment. So much seems unattainable. I just don't understand how they manage to have so much fun.

Nice theory, but women don't know what they want.

Wow, I'd hit that and I'll have a seat over there.

/Fark cliche trifecta in play.

I think her Mummy is wrapped a bit too tight.

Otherwise...yes, would hit it, blah blah...

RemyDuron: Uh. . . 16? They gave her the operation at 16? What the fark? Unless there are some major extenuating circumstance, like the kid was a hermaphrodite and her parents chose one gender but she favored another, that seems pretty reckless and could backfire on the poor kid.

Agreed - and apparently they started on her on hormones at 13 to suppress the testosterone surge.

Really sick stuff.

skinink: I thought she was saying she used to be from Iran!

Crowd win!

What I mean to say is I would hit it on her 18th birthday.

buk110: the Bible says

Holy Tapdancing Jeebus WTF is that NEXT to her?!?!

I looked up her music and it's auto-tuned all to hell. Have to wait for her second single, but for now I'm giving her a thumbs down despite how cute she is.

I really hope this auto-tune garbage goes away soon.

Link for anyone who wants to listen.

Looks like she'll grow into a female Ozzy.

Apples01: If I want to hit that, does that mean I have teh ghey?

depends on whether the ditch has been dug or not.

buk110: He's really cute...etc...What a sick sick person he is

So uhh...you guys planning on leaving in that Rapture thing anytime soon?

/get off my planet

spidermann: I think her Mummy is wrapped a bit too tight.

Otherwise...yes, would hit it, blah blah...

Mum looks like the witch in L4D.

I bet she still has that new quim smell.

I couldn't get past the first five seconds of her single. I hated it even before I heard her voice.

spidermann: I think her Mummy is wrapped a bit too tight.

Otherwise...yes, would hit it, blah blah...

can someone find me the can't fap to this....work is blocking all the pics.

Enrico Pallazzo:

Nah, I don't think so. I've never been attracted to men. Women are where it's at. They're just so...sexy. I don't know how to put it into words. Femininity is so...so something.

I was watching a 3 stooges short on TV last night. Holy cats, you see some of the broads in that show? They don't make them like they used to.

featherspy: I really hope this auto-tune garbage goes away soon.

It won't it is less work for the record companies. It used be provide the body and the voice and we'll create the image. Now all you need is a relatively attactive body and face. They will provide the trendy image and voice less variables to be screwed up by the human condition.

heinekev: buk110: He's really cute...


Shame it's just another homosexual that wanted to be the catcher rather than the pitcher....He's a very talented popstar I'm sure

But you know what - it's a slap in the face to God the almighty. For the Bible says we are here on this earth to have children. To do this is an abomination - and he will burn in the eternal flames of hell for all time...

What a sick sick person he is

gay bash
religious overtones
intolerance

6/10, strong effort

I'd say he loses a point for going on just bit too long. 5/10.

Got one question -- XX or XY?

her faux-gina is really an inside out penis. yuck.

RemyDuron: Uh. . . 16? They gave her the operation at 16? What the fark? Unless there are some major extenuating circumstance, like the kid was a hermaphrodite and her parents chose one gender but she favored another, that seems pretty reckless and could backfire on the poor kid.

Then she'll switch back. No big deal. And if he feels he's made a mistake, he'll switch back again. In fact, he/she could make it a part of the show, like Cher changing clothes constantly.

Apples01: If I want to hit that, does that mean I have teh ghey?

Let's look at it this way, if a hot chick had a F to M sex change would you consider hitting it ghey?

Fark it, I don't care. I'd hit it.

buk110: He's really cute...


Shame it's just another homosexual that wanted to be the catcher rather than the pitcher....He's a very talented popstar I'm sure

But you know what - it's a slap in the face to God the almighty. For the Bible says we are here on this earth to have children. To do this is an abomination - and he will burn in the eternal flames of hell for all time...

What a sick sick person he is

BLAH BLAH BLAH.

Religious nonsense aside, that shiat is GROSS.

I have high hopes that in another 50-75 years issues like this will be considered trivial. Sooner or later we're going to hit a biomedical breakthrough that will make the question of what is human the burning question of the day, and all this will be seen as the trivial window dressing that it is. I truly hope to live long enough to see the same people who this gives fits of apoplexy keel over dead screaming in vain. All your confusion, bigotry, and general neanderthal idiocy will be as obsolete as an 8-track player, but I imagine that like the 8-track you'll just switch channels but be playing the same outdated tune.

/Vince from Shamwow points out Germans make good stuff

dcigary: Holy Tapdancing Jeebus WTF is that NEXT to her?!?!

On the contrary, it would be reckless to wait any longer. It's usually not hard to tell by earlier than that. Sixteen is the typical age to start HRT in the US, and the earliest surgeries come a year after that, I think. It should probably be earlier, to be honest; natural puberty, especially male puberty, does a lot of things that can't be undone.

/Speaking about 90% from forum discussions here, so...

Hick: Mum looks like the witch in L4D.

I think thats her dad.

biatch better not upstage me!

dcigary: Holy Tapdancing Jeebus WTF is that NEXT to her?!?!

You know you'd stick it in her ass. Anyone who denies it is a liar, or a woman.

RemyDuron: Uh. . . 16? They gave her the operation at 16? What the fark? Unless there are some major extenuating circumstance, like the kid was a hermaphrodite and her parents chose one gender but she favored another, that seems pretty reckless and could backfire on the poor kid.

cchris_39: Agreed - and apparently they started on her on hormones at 13 to suppress the testosterone surge.

Really sick stuff.

Yes, how sick indeed. Two independent psychiatrists signed off on the fact that Kim is transsexual. How sick indeed. And what, per chance, is your medical or psychological background?

I'm going to guess none. But I'm glad you two non-experts have concurring opinions. Tell me, what do you do for a living? I'll be sure to call you for advice to whatever isn't related to that field, because I'm sure you two have the frankest and greatest advice to dispense.

You know, it's funny. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini long ago issued a fatwa permitting transsexual operations, and Ayatollah Ali Khamenei confirmed this fatwa. It's long since percolated to other clerical and governmental institutions in Iran.

Does that comfort you, knowing a country that hangs 16-year-old girls by the neck from construction cranes until they're dead for the crime of farking outside marriage has more progressive view points on gender identity and transsexuality than you do?

Mmmm, delicous trap. One that I would die to have in my /b/ folder.
/Wut?

stuffy: I think thats her dad.

So you're saying that there are two men in that photo then?

/XY is XY even if you chop off the junk
//It's easier to dig a ditch than build a pole

Some women have XY chromosomes.

dcigary:



Holy Tapdancing Jeebus WTF is that NEXT to her?!?!

Savoir-Faire:
More that that, really, is I have convinced myself that women can do what they want and men cannot. I'm so constrained by the conventions of masculinity that I can't have fun or live in the moment. So much seems unattainable. I just don't understand how they manage to have so much fun.

It's probably all in my head.

Yes, it's all in your head. Don't worry, you're not missing anything. Being female is just as awful as being male.

Having met several transsexuals, both female-to-male and male-to-female, I find the ignorance and bigotry of some in this thread distrubing.

Now, it's time for the floor show! Hit it!

The article writer misspelt "he" quite a bit.

/Wearing a beak and putting feathers up my ass doesn't make me a chicken.

Just call my name... I'll be queeeeeeeeeer.

(Not me personally, because then I would be singing to Michael Jackson's 'Ill be there' also implying that I am homosexual but since I am not homosexual, I said "Not me personally".)(Also that this person is a singer, my comment also relates to the story.)( My comment says I am not homosexual and it relates to the story so what nao biatches?)

Dr. Mojo PhD:
Yes, how sick indeed. Two independent psychiatrists signed off on the fact that Kim is transsexual. How sick indeed. And what, per chance, is your medical or psychological background?

I'm going to guess none. But I'm glad you two non-experts have concurring opinions. Tell me, what do you do for a living? I'll be sure to call you for advice to whatever isn't related to that field, because I'm sure you two have the frankest and greatest advice to dispense.

You know, it's funny. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini long ago issued a fatwa permitting transsexual operations, and Ayatollah Ali Khamenei confirmed this fatwa. It's long since percolated to other clerical and governmental institutions in Iran.

Does that comfort you, knowing a country that hangs 16-year-old girls by the neck from construction cranes until they're dead for the crime of farking outside marriage has more progressive view points on gender identity and transsexuality than you do?

Big buckets of THIS.

Ah, auto-tuned garbage music. Thought that was on it's way out? Honestly I'm surprised that they allowed a child to make such a life changing decision. He wasn't a hermaphrodite, so what was the excuse to give a 13 year old boy hormone therapy?

AirForceVet: Having met several transsexuals, both female-to-male and male-to-female, I find the ignorance and bigotry of some in this thread distrubing.



/Hawt like the hells that heshe will burn in

Dr. Mojo PhD: RemyDuron: Uh. . . 16? They gave her the operation at 16? What the fark? Unless there are some major extenuating circumstance, like the kid was a hermaphrodite and her parents chose one gender but she favored another, that seems pretty reckless and could backfire on the poor kid.

cchris_39: Agreed - and apparently they started on her on hormones at 13 to suppress the testosterone surge.

Really sick stuff.

Yes, how sick indeed. Two independent psychiatrists signed off on the fact that Kim is transsexual. How sick indeed. And what, per chance, is your medical or psychological background?

I'm going to guess none. But I'm glad you two non-experts have concurring opinions. Tell me, what do you do for a living? I'll be sure to call you for advice to whatever isn't related to that field, because I'm sure you two have the frankest and greatest advice to dispense.

You know, it's funny. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini long ago issued a fatwa permitting transsexual operations, and Ayatollah Ali Khamenei confirmed this fatwa. It's long since percolated to other clerical and governmental institutions in Iran.

Does that comfort you, knowing a country that hangs 16-year-old girls by the neck from construction cranes until they're dead for the crime of farking outside marriage has more progressive view points on gender identity and transsexuality than you do?

Yeah I don't see what the problem is. I think it would only be sick is if someone was going through this over the age of 25. The hormone therapies won't work, and the surgeries will be very complicated. Add in the fact that after the whole procedure is done, they will still look the same as before.

Better to do it earlier where the hormones will still make a difference.

Fuggin Bizzy: heinekev: buk110: He's really cute...


Shame it's just another homosexual that wanted to be the catcher rather than the pitcher....He's a very talented popstar I'm sure

But you know what - it's a slap in the face to God the almighty. For the Bible says we are here on this earth to have children. To do this is an abomination - and he will burn in the eternal flames of hell for all time...

What a sick sick person he is

gay bash
religious overtones
intolerance

6/10, strong effort

I'd say he loses a point for going on just bit too long. 5/10.

Also Jesus can see his boner.

4/10.

\Jesus knows all sees all.
\\Glad not to be Jesus.

featherspy: I looked up her music and it's auto-tuned all to hell. Have to wait for her second single, but for now I'm giving her a thumbs down despite how cute she is.

I really hope this auto-tune garbage goes away soon.

Link for anyone who wants to listen.

Her song is meh. Her only draw will be that she was a dude. She'll be on big brother UK in 2 years.

buk110: But you know what - it's a slap in the face to God the almighty. For the Bible says we are here on this earth to have children. To do this is an abomination - and he will burn in the eternal flames of hell for all time...


I AM A FALSE PROPHET AND GOD IS A SUPERSTITION (new window)

Squidgilum: RemyDuron: Uh. . . 16? They gave her the operation at 16? What the fark? Unless there are some major extenuating circumstance, like the kid was a hermaphrodite and her parents chose one gender but she favored another, that seems pretty reckless and could backfire on the poor kid.

Then she'll switch back. No big deal. And if he feels he's made a mistake, he'll switch back again. In fact, he/she could make it a part of the show, like Cher changing clothes constantly.

It doesn't really work that way.

Renowned transvestite sexologist: /Wearing a beak and putting feathers up my ass doesn't make me a chicken.

Ironic

hedwig is the angry gay w/ a short inch?

Dr. Mojo PhD: RemyDuron: Uh. . . 16? They gave her the operation at 16? What the fark? Unless there are some major extenuating circumstance, like the kid was a hermaphrodite and her parents chose one gender but she favored another, that seems pretty reckless and could backfire on the poor kid.

cchris_39: Agreed - and apparently they started on her on hormones at 13 to suppress the testosterone surge.

Really sick stuff.

Yes, how sick indeed. Two independent psychiatrists signed off on the fact that Kim is transsexual. How sick indeed. And what, per chance, is your medical or psychological background?

I'm going to guess none. But I'm glad you two non-experts have concurring opinions. Tell me, what do you do for a living? I'll be sure to call you for advice to whatever isn't related to that field, because I'm sure you two have the frankest and greatest advice to dispense.

You know, it's funny. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini long ago issued a fatwa permitting transsexual operations, and Ayatollah Ali Khamenei confirmed this fatwa. It's long since percolated to other clerical and governmental institutions in Iran.

Does that comfort you, knowing a country that hangs 16-year-old girls by the neck from construction cranes until they're dead for the crime of farking outside marriage has more progressive view points on gender identity and transsexuality than you do?

16. I have no problem with sex changes, but I think that is too young. Too much potential for something to change. There's a reason it's generally harder to diagnose young people with certain psychological conditions.

Bad troll, bad buk110.

Silly of you to throw the Bible at me. I live in the Bible Belt and dismiss local religious fiends by quoting Scripture with the best of them.

My personal favorite is reminding them Jefferson Davis, other Confederate leaders, and Southern politicians used to quote Scripture to justify slavery. They get all bothered with that one.

buk110: stuffy: I think thats her dad.

So you're saying that there are two men in that photo then?

/XY is XY even if you chop off the junk
//It's easier to dig a ditch than build a pole

Sex is in your pants, and gender is in your head. Sometimes they don't align up the way nature wants it to, for whatever reason, it just happens.

Tatsuma!
Uh... I mean
Whyteraven74!

coxinha: Yes, it's all in your head. Don't worry, you're not missing anything. Being female is just as awful as being male.

How you doin?

Savoir-Faire: You know, if I could change, I would. It seems to me that the ladies really have it, at least while they're young. They're just so crushingly beautiful, I can't comprehend it. I'd have to be attractive though.

More that that, really, is I have convinced myself that women can do what they want and men cannot. I'm so constrained by the conventions of masculinity that I can't have fun or live in the moment. So much seems unattainable. I just don't understand how they manage to have so much fun.

It's probably all in my head.

It's all in your head. I'm a girl who greatly prefers the company and friendship of men. Women are petty and cruel. You can't just dress however you want to around women or else you'll be the butt of all their jokes and you'll be outcast and ostracized permanently. You can't do anything different or step outside the lines. You can't laugh too loud or sit comfortably or play rough or have any fun.

And in my waning years, when the lines start to show on my face and my breasts begin to succumb to gravity (as they inevitably will), I'll be that hideous old woman down the street that nobody wants to even visit, whereas my husband can get fat, wrinkled, and crotchety, and everyone will still think he's pretty cool. Aging is harder on women than it will ever be for men.

cchris_39: RemyDuron: Uh. . . 16? They gave her the operation at 16? What the fark? Unless there are some major extenuating circumstance, like the kid was a hermaphrodite and her parents chose one gender but she favored another, that seems pretty reckless and could backfire on the poor kid.

Agreed - and apparently they started on her on hormones at 13 to suppress the testosterone surge.

Really sick stuff.

Really sick stuff? I live in southeastern Florida, the official farking habitat of surgically-created "really sick stuff."

I have seen women whose faces are pulled so taut, it looks like you could flip their skulls back to dispense Pez.

I have seen breast enhancements so grossly overdone, you'd think someone stuck Quasimodo's head on backwards.

I have seen lips shaped like mating minnows -- traditionally, this is the only mobile feature left in a botoxed death mask.

It's grotesque. It's disgusting.

It's a socially accepted practice. Hell, in South Florida, it's freaking normal.

...And you want to call this sick? A kid who has identified as a female since age two has a sex change operation and becomes a lovely young lady?

Wow. Just...Wow.

cchris_39: Agreed - and apparently they started on her on hormones at 13 to suppress the testosterone surge.

Really sick stuff awesome idea.

FTFM.

RemyDuron:
It doesn't really work that way.

It might... in Germany.

Savoir-Faire: You know, if I could change, I would. It seems to me that the ladies really have it, at least while they're young. They're just so crushingly beautiful, I can't comprehend it. I'd have to be attractive though.

More that that, really, is I have convinced myself that women can do what they want and men cannot. I'm so constrained by the conventions of masculinity that I can't have fun or live in the moment. So much seems unattainable. I just don't understand how they manage to have so much fun.

It's probably all in my head.

Eh. One cage for another, different but equally elaborate and constraining. I happen to fit better into the one I chose than the one I was given, but oooh you'd better be sure you can handle the ride before you switch.

/srsly, what if the comments in this thread were about you?
//still wanna?

It doesn't disturb me that she made the change at her age, but it really creeps me out that the adults in her life are allowing it to be a selling point in her career. It's exploitative to cash in on the sexuality of children. Tatu was bad but this is much worse.

"I am very proud of what she has achieved, how she has managed to get there and how she sticks to her dreams no matter how hard and painful they are to follow.

"We saw Kim as a girl - but not as a problem."

Gotta say, I got a little choked up, thinking of all the kids who haven't heard this message from their parents. I'm happy that Kim is able to walk the road she feels she is meant to be on.

Meh.

So, s/he had a tallywhacker once?

Big farking deal.

Get over it.

Where's the news in this? Pop stars swap sex for fame every damn day.

--reads article--

Oh. Well then. That's completely different.

Never mind.

I'm trying to think of things that I didn't change my mind about somewhere along the line between the ages of 2 and 13. So far, a fondness for french fries and feeling like a girl are the only things coming to mind. And you know what? I still like french fries and feel female at the age of 35. If this girl consistently said she was a girl from the ages of 2 to 13, I think they made the right call in starting her treatment. I really don't see her suddenly missing her penis.

Savoir-Faire:
You know, if I could change, I would. It seems to me that the ladies really have it, at least while they're young. They're just so crushingly beautiful, I can't comprehend it. I'd have to be attractive though.

More that that, really, is I have convinced myself that women can do what they want and men cannot. I'm so constrained by the conventions of masculinity that I can't have fun or live in the moment. So much seems unattainable. I just don't understand how they manage to have so much fun.

It's probably all in my head.

Hahaha. Wow. You've watched too many Lifetime movies.
The capriciousness of a person is quite often linked to stupidity or ignorance in my opinion.
"Beauty" doesn't explore the stars or map the human genome. It doesn't feed the poor or cure diseases.

Anyway, dung beetles probably think other dung beetles are the most attractive things on the planet. Why place so much value in something of so little value?

He used be named Tim you say? I really can't see that...well, maybe around the nose...

morgantx: Savoir-Faire: You know, if I could change, I would. It seems to me that the ladies really have it, at least while they're young. They're just so crushingly beautiful, I can't comprehend it. I'd have to be attractive though.

More that that, really, is I have convinced myself that women can do what they want and men cannot. I'm so constrained by the conventions of masculinity that I can't have fun or live in the moment. So much seems unattainable. I just don't understand how they manage to have so much fun.

It's probably all in my head.

It's all in your head. I'm a girl who greatly prefers the company and friendship of men. Women are petty and cruel. You can't just dress however you want to around women or else you'll be the butt of all their jokes and you'll be outcast and ostracized permanently. You can't do anything different or step outside the lines. You can't laugh too loud or sit comfortably or play rough or have any fun.

And in my waning years, when the lines start to show on my face and my breasts begin to succumb to gravity (as they inevitably will), I'll be that hideous old woman down the street that nobody wants to even visit, whereas my husband can get fat, wrinkled, and crotchety, and everyone will still think he's pretty cool. Aging is harder on women than it will ever be for men.

All women aren't like that, though. There are plenty of tomboys and tomgeeks out there that don't act like that at all. Maybe you should stop accepting women who act like that because you think it is 'normal' and 'all' women do it, and try to make better female friends.

I'm not saying you shouldn't have guy friends. But as a woman, having such a low opinion of women to the point that you avoid them will only reflect itself in your self esteem.

There are plenty of old women who have active social lives and people that love visiting them. If you see yourself as having a future of abandonment while your husband has all the fun, I think the issue is yours.

MEET the latest pop sensation. At 16 years old, with blonde good looks and a wholesome appeal, Kim Petras is set to be a superstar.

But this is no ordinary girl - Kim was actually born TIM.

So people who have had gender reassignment surgeries can't be wholesome? They are all sex-crazed maniacs? Got it.

RemyDuron: 16. I have no problem with sex changes, but I think that is too young. Too much potential for something to change. There's a reason it's generally harder to diagnose young people with certain psychological conditions.


And yet transsexuality is not one of those conditions. Transsexuals universally identify as the opposite gender from day 1. This isn't a mere whim. Transsexuality isn't homosexuality, it's not about attraction, it's about identity. This isn't college experimentation or two lipstick lesbians making out to get you hard. It's not hermaphrodism.

The fact of the matter is, any and all transsexuals will identify as the opposite physical gender. There's not even a counter-argument there -- barring actual mental illness, a person doesn't just wake up and say they're a woman when they were born with testes and a penis. And, of course, that's precisely why psychiatrists and physicians administer a battery of tests to ensure that the person actually is transgendered and not mentally ill.

The surgery and procedures should be performed as early as possible, especially for the health of the transsexual. Fighting the body's natural hormones isn't as healthy as redirecting those hormones, and the primary and secondary sex characteristics forming the adult body are difficult to reverse; for the transsexual's mental health and stability its better to nip that in the bud than it is to permit a mixing of sex characteristics or to allow the sex characteristics to develop fully. It also requires less surgery to do so.

As for the age of the surgery, what's the problem? Post-natal infants undergo procedures if they're considered life-saving. Children and teens undergo life saving procedures. Would you object to a radical nephrectomy if Kim had metastatic renal carcinoma? Is she too young for that, too? Or does only physical health matter?

Yeah, forget the mental strain it will put on her. Forget suicidal ideations, depression, bullying, persecution. Forget anxiety, mood swings, and a general inability to fit in. Forget the fact that attracting a mate -- one of the primary biological imperatives -- becomes nigh impossible because transsexual men do not desire homosexual men or heterosexual woman. Forget all that mental and consequently, according to massive amounts of research, physical strain it will put on her even if she does consider suicide. The relatively harmless procedure that may save her life and give a fully realised sovereign moral agent piece of mind and a place in the world is wrong because she's 16 and not 18, a total whopping difference of a maximum of 731 days if the transsexual's birthday between those ages happens to fall on a leap year.

After all, so much can change in 731 days. A person who grows up a girl, identifies as a girl since as far back as they can remember self-identification, for 16 years, is going to change her mind in the span of a little more than 100 weeks.

She's only been alive for 5844 days (again accounting for leap years), identifying as a woman even before the onset of those horribly confusing puberty symptoms we all went through. You know, all those wet dreams, breaking voices, awkward hair growth and the sudden and sporadic desire for a vagina. I mean, when you take that into account, she really should wait till she's 18, right?

I'm sure the additional 11.1% of her lifespan she has to reflect on why she's wanted to be a woman her entire life will suddenly make her wipe her brow and go "phew, I'm glad I waited all these years to come to the exact same condition, only will now have to undergo corrective cosmetic surgery to alter all these changes to my body which would not have happened to me if I'd just gotten the operation two years ago. The additional invasive medical procedures, expenses, recovery time, mental strain and fatigue, persecution, loneliness, and depression sure were worth it to assure my anonymous internet critics that I really do want to be a woman, because it really does sort of seem like deciding what you should major in in college -- with us teenagers it might change any moment!"

clusterfrak: Would hit it with or without the peener.

That's gross. Do you know what guys end up with when they get a sex change? A smelly, bacteria breeding, dry cavity. You want to put your d*ck into that? I'd rather choke on my own vomit.

Fap...wha?? (blink) Ahh, fark it..Fap fap fap

Memoryalpha: Ah, auto-tuned garbage music. Thought that was on it's way out? Honestly I'm surprised that they allowed a child to make such a life changing decision.

I concur. What kind of monster would allow their 16-year-old child to create an autotune recording? It's not like you can call "do-overs" on something that horrifying and perverse if you change your mind some day. Bad music is forever. Just ask Carl Douglas

Dr. Mojo PhD: The surgery and procedures should be performed as early as possible, especially for the health of the transsexual. Fighting the body's natural hormones isn't as healthy as redirecting those hormones, and the primary and secondary sex characteristics forming the adult body are difficult to reverse; for the transsexual's mental health and stability its better to nip that in the bud than it is to permit a mixing of sex characteristics or to allow the sex characteristics to develop fully. It also requires less surgery to do so.

I'm skeptical about that. I'm not a doctor, but common sense tells me it's unwise to do such a radical surgical procedure on someone who is not fully physically matured.

Most responsible plastic surgeons discourage girls under 18 from even getting breast implants, for the reason that they're still growing and it's difficult to predict how their future growth might adversely affect them post-op.

Sex change operations should be viewed with even more careful analysis in teenagers. The potential for unwanted side effects seems awfully risky. Wouldn't it be better if they waited a few years?

Epsilon: That's gross. Do you know what guys end up with when they get a sex change? A smelly, bacteria breeding, dry cavity. You want to put your d*ck into that? I'd rather choke on my own vomit.

Uh, yeah. Not so much. It takes about three seconds on Google for anyone to discover that a mucous membrane is transferred to the neovagina during a vaginoplasty. Additionally, Cowper's gland is left intact. Cowper's gland is the homologue to Bartholin's gland in women, the primary source of lubrication in women. The neovagina is capable of secretions roughly analogous to a genetically female vagina. The presence of mucous membranes additionally protect from bacteria, naturally, and therefore would reduce and supposed smell.

That's Google for you. I could bust out my Psych 101 textbook -- something anybody can get at any post-secondary institute, really -- pop the chapter on sexual identity and sex reassignment, and explain how grossly wrong you are, but hey. I'm sure you love propagating what is essentially the modern day version of Jim Crow.

Your Average Witty Fark User: You know you'd stick it in her ass. Anyone who denies it is a liar, or a woman who doesn't own a strap-on.

FTFY

Epsilon: I'm skeptical about that. I'm not a doctor, but common sense tells me it's unwise to do such a radical surgical procedure on someone who is not fully physically matured.

That's actually not quite as big of an issue as you would seem to think. And whilst you pointed out the fact that young girls are dissuaded from getting breast implants and other cosmetic surgery, the reason for such things isn't because of the technical problems related to the operation, but because the doctors want to make sure that the patient is mentally fit to undertake such a decision.

In this case, I tend to agree with Kim's doctor - this seems like an exceptionally clear cut case and one that doesn't come a long very often to boot.

On the flip side however, considering Kim started hormone therapy at the age of 13, it wouldn't have really made that much of a difference if she had her gender reassignment surgery at 16 or 18. The hormones were keeping her from developing male secondary physical characteristics anyway and quite likely she'll have to keep taking them for the rest of her life in any case.

In a perfect world we'd have... well, perfect diagnosis capabilities for this stuff. If that was established, then I could see no reason for not performing the surgery as soon as it's physically viable. But until then, I do feel that doctors need to be very careful and that it's probably best to wait until the patient mentally matures enough to fully undertake responsibility for the outcome of the surgery.

That being said, I 100% support starting hormone therapy young for transgendered girls. The last thing the world needs is more fugly trannys. Blech.

Tim/Kim in about 40 years:


/hot like the little tranny

Epsilon: I'm skeptical about that. I'm not a doctor, but common sense tells me it's unwise to do such a radical surgical procedure on someone who is not fully physically matured.

Yeah, well that's your problem, isn't it? The whole point of sex reassignment is to give the transsexual person some peace of mind. To give them a body that they identify with. The sooner it is performed, the better. You think it's wise to let them mature into a fully sexualized male or female body, then do the operation?

That's the surgical equivalent of letting a tumor grow to its most malignant size before removing it. It virtually defeats the entire purpose of the surgery in the first place.

Most responsible plastic surgeons discourage girls under 18 from even getting breast implants, for the reason that they're still growing and it's difficult to predict how their future growth might adversely affect them post-op.

And most responsible plastic surgeons will perform breast reductions on girls who have breasts so large as to cause chronic pain. Most responsible plastic surgeons will perform an implant or reduction on girls who have lobsided breasts. Most responsible plastic surgeons will perform breast reduction on teenage men with severe gynecomastia. Most responsible plastic surgeons will perform facial reconstruction and skin grafting on child burn victims. Most responsible plastic surgeons will perform any operation which is therapeutic to the patient.

What you're doing is equivocating. You're assuming that cosmetic = plastic = elective surgery. You're not differentiating between Marsha wanting bigger boobs because Marsha wants all the boys and Marsha wanting bigger boobs because one is an A cup and the other is a C cup. You're assuming sexual reassignment surgery is the same thing as a rhinoplasty to fix a Roman nose.

Oh hey, guess what: It's not. While it involves external, cosmetic changes it is most definitely done for a reason.

Sex change operations should be viewed with even more careful analysis in teenagers. The potential for unwanted side effects seems awfully risky. Wouldn't it be better if they waited a few years?

Unwanted side-effects like what? What unwanted side-effects are you imagining? It's not like their penis grows back after the surgery. Are you dropping medical buzzwords to advance your point or do you actually understand what you're talking about?

What could happen to a 16-year-old that couldn't happen to an 18-year-old during SRS? They grow a second head?

Here's the reality: The older they get, the less plastic they get. They're less malleable, and the changes their bodies undergo are far more set in stone. It's far more invasive, and therefore dangerous, to the person to wait. It's far less invasive to intervene early, perform a few treatments, and let nature take it the rest of way. Anything else is in your imagination.

Bill approves.

Would hit it anyway, after consulting Daniel and Nick.

His music sucks. Major vocal affects that have been auto-tuned to really boring pop. I'm sure he'll be able to make a living doing this, if only because of the novelty have having a being transgendered. It doesn't change the fact that his music sucks.

Despite all appearances, he won't be a "woman" until his first ovulation.

As someone who identifies as gender queer, if I could travel back in time and transition at 12 or 13 like she did, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I had no idea what I was back then, and let's face it, the 70s probably weren't the best time to have gender issues as a little boy.

I have no formal education in mental health or gender identity issues, but I don't need any of that there fancy book lernin; my common sense tells me that this is wrong and that IT would be much happier as a man. Also, South Park did an episode about this, so I know for sure that I'm right.

Dr. Mojo PhD: Epsilon: That's gross. Do you know what guys end up with when they get a sex change? A smelly, bacteria breeding, dry cavity. You want to put your d*ck into that? I'd rather choke on my own vomit.

Uh, yeah. Not so much. It takes about three seconds on Google for anyone to discover that a mucous membrane is transferred to the neovagina during a vaginoplasty. Additionally, Cowper's gland is left intact. Cowper's gland is the homologue to Bartholin's gland in women, the primary source of lubrication in women. The neovagina is capable of secretions roughly analogous to a genetically female vagina. The presence of mucous membranes additionally protect from bacteria, naturally, and therefore would reduce and supposed smell.

That's Google for you. I could bust out my Psych 101 textbook -- something anybody can get at any post-secondary institute, really -- pop the chapter on sexual identity and sex reassignment, and explain how grossly wrong you are, but hey. I'm sure you love propagating what is essentially the modern day version of Jim Crow.
You elitist liberals make me sick. You think that just because you're "educated" on so-called "science" that you know what's RIGHT. The Bible trumps medical science EVERY TIME. Burn in hell, homofag.

Sxooter: As someone who identifies as gender queer, if I could travel back in time and transition at 12 or 13 like she did, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Why? There's noting wrong with being gay or lesbian. The only thing I think you could really gain by doing something like that is it's easier to hide being transgendered (not in ALL cases, I've met someone where the whole process was an abyssal failure on, he made a really ugly woman).

Just be who you are, as long as your not being malevolent, there's nothing with you.

mister aj: You elitist liberals make me sick. You think that just because you're "educated" on so-called "science" that you know what's RIGHT. The Bible trumps medical science EVERY TIME. Burn in hell, homofag.

I love you too, man.

So, HAMMERTOE, a woman who never ovulates isn't ever a woman? A young girl who has her ovaries removed before puberty, but takes female hormones and develops otherwise as a woman, isn't a woman cause she can't provide an egg for someone to fertalize?

Are all sterile women not women then? Do they stop being a woman at 50 something when they hit menopause?

Renowned transvestite sexologist: Why? There's noting wrong with being gay or lesbian. The only thing I think you could really gain by doing something like that is it's easier to hide being transgendered (not in ALL cases, I've met someone where the whole process was an abyssal failure on, he made a really ugly woman).

Just be who you are, as long as your not being malevolent, there's nothing with you.

Genderqueer isn't gay/lesbian. It's a pretty broad spectrum of gender identification issues (I use the term neutrally). Anyway, don't assume genderqueer to mean queer or, for that matter, transsexual.

So a teenage boy chopped off his penis and then had it shoved inside his pelvic cavity to make a "vagina".

Anybody else read this as "youngest ever sex swap pornstar"?

/shudders to think what this says about me

mister aj: would be much happier as a man.

Your Troll-Fu sucks. You really should work on it.

That being said, this is demonstrable wrong. People with body/gender identity disorder are pretty much ALWAYS happier after having the offending body part removed or changed in the way they felt it should have been when they were born.

It's one of those things, you're VERY unlikely to find anyone having any regrets about doing. I'm sure if you looked around you could find someone somewhere who changed their mind when it was too late. They would be a clear minority.

Renowned transvestite sexologist: It's one of those things, you're VERY unlikely to find anyone having any regrets about doing. I'm sure if you looked around you could find someone somewhere who changed their mind when it was too late. They would be a clear minority.

I'm also sure if you looked at that minority, you would find some sort of underlying mental illness. I had a friend of mine that went extremely schizophrenic, and decided that because he had been gay, he should be a woman. He wanted to save up for sex reassignment, but of course he'd never get it. He just didn't want to be gay, and was mentally ill.

Renowned transvestite sexologist

Link (new window)

Gender Queer does not mean gay or lesbian... Your whole post seems to follow from a presupposition that it does.

mister aj: You elitist liberals make me sick. You think that just because you're "educated" on so-called "science" that you know what's RIGHT. The Bible trumps medical science EVERY TIME. Burn in hell, homofag.

You're laying it on too thick. You have to be less obvious to actually catch anyone when you're trolling.

bobvila136: mister aj: You elitist liberals make me sick. You think that just because you're "educated" on so-called "science" that you know what's RIGHT. The Bible trumps medical science EVERY TIME. Burn in hell, homofag.

You're laying it on too thick. You have to be less obvious to actually catch anyone when you're trolling.

Actually, I think mister aj is using sarcasm.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this an episode of House MD?

Squidgilum: Then she'll switch back. No big deal. And if he feels he's made a mistake, he'll switch back again. In fact, he/she could make it a part of the show, like Cher changing clothes constantly.



Sex changes do not work that way!

mister aj:
You elitist liberals make me sick. You think that just because you're "educated" on so-called "science" that you know what's RIGHT. The Bible trumps medical science EVERY TIME. Burn in hell, homofag.

Sxooter: Gender Queer does not mean gay or lesbian... Your whole post seems to follow from a presupposition that it does.

There's still nothing wrong with you, unless you WANT something to be wrong with you.

I'm all about people doing what they need to do in their world, just as long as it's doesn't involve stepping on other peoples toes. We don't live long enough for us to figure everything out, so we have to make the best of it we can. I get that part.

The fact still remains, you are who you are. While, your body is yours, your sex life is yours, it's all yours. I'm of the mind, inverting a penis and taking hormones might make someone happier, but it doesn't make them a girl. It's just an extremely drastic measure that should be taken if and only if all other measures failed miserably. Even at the point of no return where it's going to happen, people should be advised against it.

It's the same thing as chopping off your own foot because you grew up knowing you should not have that foot (yes, that happens, it's called body identity disorder). Sure, they end up much happier after the body part is removed. There are other options.

/with the one BIG exception of reversing an incorrect gender assignment at birth. That has demonstrably messed up peoples lives so throughly they end up having no sex drive, ambition, and no clear understanding of who they are.

Ya know, I don't really take issue with he/she making this decision. Instead I wonder what in the human mind makes it click to go against its biology. If it is sexual identification or if its something else? I won't profess to be knowledgable in the realm of psychology but it just really comes off as an anomoly...a hitch in the biology.

Banana Montana?

Life_is_a_carnivore: Banana Montana?

Wow. Just wow.

I just got this perfect image of some young kid, with his junk still intact going all RuPaul to the Mickey Mouse Club loving kid pop music market. He could make MILLIONS, while making every boy in the sub 16 year age feel really dirty when he goes to sleep at night.

Renowned transvestite sexologist: Sxooter: Gender Queer does not mean gay or lesbian... Your whole post seems to follow from a presupposition that it does.

There's still nothing wrong with you, unless you WANT something to be wrong with you.

Sorry, but that's a statement that you can only make from outside my realm of experience and therefore is at best an (un)educated guess. Unless you grew up wearing your mother's clothes when she wasn't around, preteding you were a girl when no one was looking, you can't possibly tell me I wanted this. I didn't want to be like this, I was born like this.


/with the one BIG exception of reversing an incorrect gender assignment at birth. That has demonstrably messed up peoples lives so throughly they end up having no sex drive, ambition, and no clear understanding of who they are.

Note that the vast majority of gender reassignments done at birth have been on either intersexed children, or male children with horrifically botched circumcisions. I believe no gender reassignment should be done until the child themselves identifies as one gender or another, especially with intersexed children.

I look at young transwomen like this girl and am very happy for them that they were born to parents in an understanding society and they can make a change that works so well for them. And there's broad spectrums of how people transition and how far they go. Some girls enjoy having penises and that's ok too.

The big draw for me would have been to start hormone therapy young enough to look like a girl. Having a penis is something I could take or leave. But once testosterone starts shaping you into a male, it's late in the game.

Firedust: Ya know, I don't really take issue with he/she making this decision. Instead I wonder what in the human mind makes it click to go against its biology. If it is sexual identification or if its something else? I won't profess to be knowledgable in the realm of psychology but it just really comes off as an anomoly...a hitch in the biology.

The truth is, nobody knows for certain. It seems to be less a hitch in biology as neurology or psychology. They are, for the most part, either XX-Female identifying as male, or XY-male identifying as female. There's others, I'm sure (47, XXY, 47, XYY, 47, XXX), but there's no real difference between them and the standard 46, XX and 46, XY in terms of gender & sex. Genetically, most are normal male or females.

Sex reassignment surgery in the case of intersex or hermaphrodites is a wee bit different, for obvious reasons. In which case the person gets to choose their own sex if they have reasonably non-assholish parents.

In short, nobody knows for certain.

Sxooter: Sorry, but that's a statement that you can only make from outside my realm of experience and therefore is at best an (un)educated guess. Unless you grew up wearing your mother's clothes when she wasn't around, preteding you were a girl when no one was looking, you can't possibly tell me I wanted this. I didn't want to be like this, I was born like this.

I used to wear my mother's clothes when she was around. Not that I delighted in identifying as a woman, you see, or desiring both characteristics, but I did love to shock my mother.

It was that or jump through the glass cocktail table and stick knives in electrical outlets. I did those, too, but honestly throwing on the Sunday best seemed to be a far safer alternative.

Sxooter: I believe no gender reassignment should be done until the child themselves identifies as one gender or another, especially with intersexed children.

This is one of those things I have no opinion on. It's way too hard to call. What I do know of it is by time someone is old enough to be aware of their own sexuality, they usually end up not having one.

If they get the assignment wrong (which does happen), you can end up with someone who is more screwed up than they would have been if they went without having an assignment.

If they get it right, you can end up with an adult who lives a productive and happy life.

Sex is such an important part of the human condition, if something can be done to help someone have a healthy sex life, then it should be done. it's just that simple. Problem is, if they get it wrong, you can end up royally messing up someone.

I just hope I NEVER end up having to make a decision like that.

One thing I will not allow, no son of mine is getting circumcised unless he choses to.

Renowned transvestite sexologist: Life_is_a_carnivore: Banana Montana?

Wow. Just wow.

I just got this perfect image of some young kid, with his junk still intact going all RuPaul to the Mickey Mouse Club loving kid pop music market. He could make MILLIONS, while making every boy in the sub 16 year age feel really dirty when he goes to sleep at night.



Warms the heart, doesn't it?

Dr. Mojo PhD: Sxooter: Sorry, but that's a statement that you can only make from outside my realm of experience and therefore is at best an (un)educated guess. Unless you grew up wearing your mother's clothes when she wasn't around, preteding you were a girl when no one was looking, you can't possibly tell me I wanted this. I didn't want to be like this, I was born like this.

I used to wear my mother's clothes when she was around. Not that I delighted in identifying as a woman, you see, or desiring both characteristics, but I did love to shock my mother.

Then you don't share a common experience with me, because your motivation was completely different. I didn't dress in mom's clothes to shock anyone, I did it to feel like (for a short time at least) a girl.

I've certainly mellowed into it, and found that i don't need to be a girl to be happy, and I'd rather be an old guy who let's his friend's daughter put make up on me occasionally than try to pass as a really ugly chick.

Renowned transvestite sexologist: One thing I will not allow, no son of mine is getting circumcised unless he choses to.

Or unless it's medically necessary, right? My cousin had to be circumcised because of an infection of the frenulum that risked spreading to his glans and the rest of his penis. It was either snip the tip or chop the cock.

Sxooter: Then you don't share a common experience with me, because your motivation was completely different. I didn't dress in mom's clothes to shock anyone, I did it to feel like (for a short time at least) a girl.

Eh, I was just joking with you. You'll notice I pointed out the same thing to Renowned as you. I'm on the same page, even if it's your autobiography and I just picked it up in the store.

Sxooter: I've certainly mellowed into it, and found that i don't need to be a girl to be happy, and I'd rather be an old guy who let's his friend's daughter put make up on me occasionally than try to pass as a really ugly chick.

I used to let chicks put makeup on me all the time. It's interesting, because it seems that you felt (and this may be presumptuous of me) uncomfortable with your gender role, while I felt totally comfortable with mine. Leading to the same outcomes, if for completely different motivations.

LowbrowDeluxe: I have high hopes that in another 50-75 years issues like this will be considered trivial. Sooner or later we're going to hit a biomedical breakthrough that will make the question of what is human the burning question of the day, and all this will be seen as the trivial window dressing that it is.

The furries must be looking forward to that.

Okay, I think I might have a bit of teh ghey AND I need to have a seat over there...

Dr. Mojo PhD:

Sxooter: Then you don't share a common experience with me, because your motivation was completely different. I didn't dress in mom's clothes to shock anyone, I did it to feel like (for a short time at least) a girl.

Eh, I was just joking with you. You'll notice I pointed out the same thing to Renowned as you. I'm on the same page, even if it's your autobiography and I just picked it up in the store.

Oh sorry thought you were that other guy... RTS.

Sxooter: Dr. Mojo PhD:

Sxooter: Then you don't share a common experience with me, because your motivation was completely different. I didn't dress in mom's clothes to shock anyone, I did it to feel like (for a short time at least) a girl.

Eh, I was just joking with you. You'll notice I pointed out the same thing to Renowned as you. I'm on the same page, even if it's your autobiography and I just picked it up in the store.

Oh sorry thought you were that other guy... RTS.

Oh, it's a common mistake. No worries.

dcigary: Holy Tapdancing Jeebus WTF is that NEXT to her?!?!

It looks like something out of "Tales from the Crypt".

Look at mommy again.

/waits

What have we learned?

Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: So a teenage boy chopped off his penis and then had it shoved inside his pelvic cavity to make a "vagina".

I miss those guys!

/no tranny Pedobear?

boobsrgood: Look at mommy again.

/waits

What have we learned?

Hit it and flee before she turns 30 20

mister aj: Dr. Mojo PhD: Epsilon: That's gross. Do you know what guys end up with when they get a sex change? A smelly, bacteria breeding, dry cavity. You want to put your d*ck into that? I'd rather choke on my own vomit.

Uh, yeah. Not so much. It takes about three seconds on Google for anyone to discover that a mucous membrane is transferred to the neovagina during a vaginoplasty. Additionally, Cowper's gland is left intact. Cowper's gland is the homologue to Bartholin's gland in women, the primary source of lubrication in women. The neovagina is capable of secretions roughly analogous to a genetically female vagina. The presence of mucous membranes additionally protect from bacteria, naturally, and therefore would reduce and supposed smell.

That's Google for you. I could bust out my Psych 101 textbook -- something anybody can get at any post-secondary institute, really -- pop the chapter on sexual identity and sex reassignment, and explain how grossly wrong you are, but hey. I'm sure you love propagating what is essentially the modern day version of Jim Crow.
You elitist liberals make me sick. You think that just because you're "educated" on so-called "science" that you know what's RIGHT. The Bible trumps medical science EVERY TIME. Burn in hell, homofag.

Having just read your profile, you exist solely to take an opposite side to things so you can make people angry and chuckle about it. As was said before, your troll-fu sucks.

This is really an oddball case since she started gene therapy right as she hit puberty. So we have mutilated male genitalia, but otherwise female secondary sexual development from my completely uninformed guess.

Before


After

Dr. Mojo PhD: Epsilon: I'm skeptical about that. I'm not a doctor, but common sense tells me it's unwise to do such a radical surgical procedure on someone who is not fully physically matured.

Yeah, well that's your problem, isn't it? The whole point of sex reassignment is to give the transsexual person some peace of mind. To give them a body that they identify with. The sooner it is performed, the better. You think it's wise to let them mature into a fully sexualized male or female body, then do the operation?

That's the surgical equivalent of letting a tumor grow to its most malignant size before removing it. It virtually defeats the entire purpose of the surgery in the first place.

Most responsible plastic surgeons discourage girls under 18 from even getting breast implants, for the reason that they're still growing and it's difficult to predict how their future growth might adversely affect them post-op.

And most responsible plastic surgeons will perform breast reductions on girls who have breasts so large as to cause chronic pain. Most responsible plastic surgeons will perform an implant or reduction on girls who have lobsided breasts. Most responsible plastic surgeons will perform breast reduction on teenage men with severe gynecomastia. Most responsible plastic surgeons will perform facial reconstruction and skin grafting on child burn victims. Most responsible plastic surgeons will perform any operation which is therapeutic to the patient.

What you're doing is equivocating. You're assuming that cosmetic = plastic = elective surgery. You're not differentiating between Marsha wanting bigger boobs because Marsha wants all the boys and Marsha wanting bigger boobs because one is an A cup and the other is a C cup. You're assuming sexual reassignment surgery is the same thing as a rhinoplasty to fix a Roman nose.

Oh hey, guess what: It's not. While it involves external, cosmetic changes it is most definitely done for a reason.

Sex change operations should be viewed with even more careful analysis in teenagers. The potential for unwanted side effects seems awfully risky. Wouldn't it be better if they waited a few years?

Unwanted side-effects like what? What unwanted side-effects are you imagining? It's not like their penis grows back after the surgery. Are you dropping medical buzzwords to advance your point or do you actually understand what you're talking about?

What could happen to a 16-year-old that couldn't happen to an 18-year-old during SRS? They grow a second head?

Here's the reality: The older they get, the less plastic they get. They're less malleable, and the changes their bodies undergo are far more set in stone. It's far more invasive, and therefore dangerous, to the person to wait. It's far less invasive to intervene early, perform a few treatments, and let nature take it the rest of way. Anything else is in your imagination.

ftfy
/sorry, couldn't resist :p

dcigary: Holy Tapdancing Jeebus WTF is that NEXT to her?!?!

Faye Dunaway well after Bonnie and Clyde.

Dr. Mojo PhD: RemyDuron: Uh. . . 16? They gave her the operation at 16? What the fark? Unless there are some major extenuating circumstance, like the kid was a hermaphrodite and her parents chose one gender but she favored another, that seems pretty reckless and could backfire on the poor kid.

cchris_39: Agreed - and apparently they started on her on hormones at 13 to suppress the testosterone surge.

Really sick stuff.

Yes, how sick indeed. Two independent psychiatrists signed off on the fact that Kim is transsexual. How sick indeed. And what, per chance, is your medical or psychological background?

I'm going to guess none. But I'm glad you two non-experts have concurring opinions. Tell me, what do you do for a living? I'll be sure to call you for advice to whatever isn't related to that field, because I'm sure you two have the frankest and greatest advice to dispense.

You know, it's funny. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini long ago issued a fatwa permitting transsexual operations, and Ayatollah Ali Khamenei confirmed this fatwa. It's long since percolated to other clerical and governmental institutions in Iran.

Does that comfort you, knowing a country that hangs 16-year-old girls by the neck from construction cranes until they're dead for the crime of farking outside marriage has more progressive view points on gender identity and transsexuality than you do?

Unless one was also to agree that hanging 16-year old girls by their neck from construction cranes is progressive, your point is moot. Iran - the shining beacon of progressive policies.

cchris_39: RemyDuron: Uh. . . 16? They gave her the operation at 16? What the fark? Unless there are some major extenuating circumstance, like the kid was a hermaphrodite and her parents chose one gender but she favored another, that seems pretty reckless and could backfire on the poor kid.

Agreed - and apparently they started on her on hormones at 13 to suppress the testosterone surge.

Really sick stuff.

Biblically, 13 is old enough to get married or be thrown to a mob as a sex toy in Sodom to keep your guests from being disturbed.

/Couldn't an Angel have defended itself?
//Nothing does the sick like some good 'ol OT shiat

The only question about gender reassignment is whether you want to be a freak on the inside, or a freak on the outside.

Even with FAPTurbo... I can't do it.

I think more sex changes should be done before the onset of puberty.

Most of them end up looking like that Wachowski brother (now sister, I guess).

There are some who call me.... Tim

12349876: Apples01: If I want to hit that, does that mean I have teh ghey?

depends on whether the ditch has been dug or not.

but but if it has a wiener it can't fake an orgasm...

cchris_39: RemyDuron: Uh. . . 16? They gave her the operation at 16? What the fark? Unless there are some major extenuating circumstance, like the kid was a hermaphrodite and her parents chose one gender but she favored another, that seems pretty reckless and could backfire on the poor kid.

Agreed - and apparently they started on her on hormones at 13 to suppress the testosterone surge.

Really sick stuff.

Maybe. On the other hand (just playing devil's advocate) if s/he still wanted to be a woman at 18, then the body would have gone through a lot of changes that would be hard to reverse/overcome - something s/he avoided this way by changing early.

/not sure this is right or wrong. Just interesting.

featherspy: I looked up her music and it's auto-tuned all to hell. Have to wait for her second single, but for now I'm giving her a thumbs down despite how cute she is.

I really hope this auto-tune garbage goes away soon.

Link for anyone who wants to listen.

Sounds like Brooke Hogan. Looks more feminine than Brooke also.

Grass Hopper: cchris_39: RemyDuron: Uh. . . 16? They gave her the operation at 16? What the fark? Unless there are some major extenuating circumstance, like the kid was a hermaphrodite and her parents chose one gender but she favored another, that seems pretty reckless and could backfire on the poor kid.

Agreed - and apparently they started on her on hormones at 13 to suppress the testosterone surge.

Really sick stuff.

Maybe. On the other hand (just playing devil's advocate) if s/he still wanted to be a woman at 18, then the body would have gone through a lot of changes that would be hard to reverse/overcome - something s/he avoided this way by changing early.

/not sure this is right or wrong. Just interesting.

Not really. The hormones should have stopped that. The real argument I suppose is "whats the magic number at which a human being can accept responsibility for their actions".

The answer seems to vary quite a deal :O

Hick: spidermann: I think her Mummy is wrapped a bit too tight.

Otherwise...yes, would hit it, blah blah...

Mum looks like the witch in L4D.

and give k/tim another 30 years and that is what "it" would look like

Your Average Witty Fark User: You know you'd stick it in her ass. Anyone who denies it is a liar, or a woman.

Her hairy ass. Yikes, no.

EZ Writer: Even with FAPTurbo... I can't do it.

Away, spammer!

So they had two girls and were thrilled when they finally got a boy?

Linetrap FTW, thank you.

fudgefactor7: Linetrap FTW, thank you.

LowbrowDeluxe: I have high hopes that in another 50-75 years issues like this will be considered trivial. Sooner or later we're going to hit a biomedical breakthrough that will make the question of what is human the burning question of the day, and all this will be seen as the trivial window dressing that it is. I truly hope to live long enough to see the same people who this gives fits of apoplexy keel over dead screaming in vain. All your confusion, bigotry, and general neanderthal idiocy will be as obsolete as an 8-track player, but I imagine that like the 8-track you'll just switch channels but be playing the same outdated tune.

Newsletter.

Vash's Apprentice: ftfy
/sorry, couldn't resist :p

Did it even occur in that pea brain of yours to just quote the one line your moron picture went with?

"I have two older sisters, Anna, 26, and Sina, 18.

Someone, find pictures of the sisters who are both of legal age and have real vaginas. Hopefully they don't look like the mum though *GASP*.

First



then

I'm glad this kid had a lot of support. One of my boys get hassled regularly for having a Dora doll to sleep with. But only from older boys, when in groups. But, younger boys, girls, or older boys not in a pack are all okay with it. He's a pretty good kid, so if someone wants to be a loser, he's got plenty of other friends to replace losers with.

OTOH, when I was little, I loved Speed Racer, wanted to be Capt. Kirk, and refused to wear dresses. Ok, all those things still apply. But, I just became known as the neighborhood crazy lady.

This reminds me of when I was in college and the song "Mmmbop" by Hanson was all the rage.

My roommate saw the video and said "You know, she doesn't really have tits yet but that chick singer is pretty hot."

I told him that the "she" was a he and he shrugged and said, "okay, three beers then."

Do you remember that website years ago?
It was like, a picture of Britney Spears,
and then they revealed it was actually a
dude. And then showed pictures of that dude.
Anyway, that was hot.

you go, girl!



Why, though, does she need to dress and pose like a little f*cktoy in every post-op picture?

1. We have enough whore 16-year olds who can't sing making money (take a peek at Miley's latest photo shoot--nice boots)

2. Tough to refute that someone (Mom the "jazz singer," who never made a name for herself, perhaps?) is trying to cash in on her by exploiting the transgender issues and snaring dirty old men in the process

3. Otherwise, someone should have mentioned that you don't have to be female to be an attention whore

Missed it by 4 years

I really can't believe how may guys are in here saying they'd hit a tranny. Wtf? Can't get a real woman? You do realize there are plenty of actual women out there with real vaginas, right?

/anyone who would hit a tranny is gay

OnmyojiOmn: Bill approves.

Who is that? If that's a man or transgender, I have to rethink my attitude in life.

huntercr: OnmyojiOmn: Bill approves.

Who is that? If that's a man or transgender, I have to rethink my attitude in life.

Tokyo Pop I believe, him and and his less sexy brother are also from Germany

I just dont get the whole act like a fake chick thing. I mean I am not a feminine woman. But I am not transgendered or anything. I act more like a guy but I have all the girly parts. I was looking on youtube and alot of the post surgery "girls" act like flamboyant drag queens. Real women act however they want and most of us dont run around like the fashion plates in magazines.

Where are the pills that make them cramp and bloat? And at the age of 50 do they stop taking the hormones and get facial hair like the rest of us? Just saying, its like being a Barbie without the real life problems attached to it. I can understand the whole I dont feel good in my body thing. But all the women in the world are not straight out of 17 magazine either. Prancing around and have lisps. My voice is deep so what..sheesh. Stop being fake and be yourself.

This is not a dig im just sayin

Good for her. As for the rest of the bigots and Deliverance rejects, you can go suck a big old dick and shut the fark up. You're definitely not worth engaging in any sort of intellectual debate about the topic.

/wishes she could have started at 13
//this trap is dangerous, do not provoke
///the rapture has been cancelled, please kill yourselves instead

Dr. Mojo PhD: Does that comfort you, knowing a country that hangs 16-year-old girls by the neck from construction cranes until they're dead for the crime of farking outside marriage has more progressive view points on gender identity and transsexuality than you do?

Why yes, yes it does. Why do you ask? Maybe that *they* think that this is acceptable is a good indicator?

Wash the sand out of your vagina (or newly created hole).

Abominations are amusing, that's it.

That being said, I like amusement. I'd have a meat slinging contest with it.

phestry: Good for her. As for the rest of the bigots and Deliverance rejects, you can go suck a big old dick and shut the fark up. You're definitely not worth engaging in any sort of intellectual debate about the topic.

/wishes she could have started at 13
//this trap is dangerous, do not provoke
///the rapture has been cancelled, please kill yourselves instead

Wow, the Troll-Fu is weak with this one.

2.5/10

I think she makes a very cute girl.

Crudbucket: dcigary: Holy Tapdancing Jeebus WTF is that NEXT to her?!?!

That is a middle-aged jazz vocalist.

/stay away
//stay far away
///I play jazz, so I know
////frighteningly, she's one of the better looking ones

Doesn't resemble a boy at all. With a lot of sex changes, the female still looks a lot like the man they once were. He/She/It looks pretty hot. Perhaps the fact this person was still in their teens when they had it done helps (before he got his pubes).

ambercat: morgantx: Savoir-Faire: You know, if I could change, I would. It seems to me that the ladies really have it, at least while they're young. They're just so crushingly beautiful, I can't comprehend it. I'd have to be attractive though.

More that that, really, is I have convinced myself that women can do what they want and men cannot. I'm so constrained by the conventions of masculinity that I can't have fun or live in the moment. So much seems unattainable. I just don't understand how they manage to have so much fun.

It's probably all in my head.

It's all in your head. I'm a girl who greatly prefers the company and friendship of men. Women are petty and cruel. You can't just dress however you want to around women or else you'll be the butt of all their jokes and you'll be outcast and ostracized permanently. You can't do anything different or step outside the lines. You can't laugh too loud or sit comfortably or play rough or have any fun.

And in my waning years, when the lines start to show on my face and my breasts begin to succumb to gravity (as they inevitably will), I'll be that hideous old woman down the street that nobody wants to even visit, whereas my husband can get fat, wrinkled, and crotchety, and everyone will still think he's pretty cool. Aging is harder on women than it will ever be for men.

All women aren't like that, though. There are plenty of tomboys and tomgeeks out there that don't act like that at all. Maybe you should stop accepting women who act like that because you think it is 'normal' and 'all' women do it, and try to make better female friends.

I'm not saying you shouldn't have guy friends. But as a woman, having such a low opinion of women to the point that you avoid them will only reflect itself in your self esteem.

There are plenty of old women who have active social lives and people that love visiting them. If you see yourself as having a future of abandonment while your husband has all the fun, I think the issue is yours.

Wait - did you just prove her point entirely? That's kinda cute. Your post embodies what she just went through the effort to explain was wrong with most women.

I farking love Fark sometimes.

Well...that's confusing.

I read the title and wondered what the youngest age of consent is, and why a girl that young would become a swinger ("wife swapping") at that age.

Apples01: If I want to hit that, does that mean I have teh ghey?



This person has a vagina. Would you hit it?

Dr. Mojo PhD:

You know, it's funny. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini long ago issued a fatwa permitting transsexual operations, and Ayatollah Ali Khamenei confirmed this fatwa. It's long since percolated to other clerical and governmental institutions in Iran.

Does that comfort you, knowing a country that hangs 16-year-old girls by the neck from construction cranes until they're dead for the crime of farking outside marriage has more progressive view points on gender identity and transsexuality than you do?



Not being snarky here, asking a question.

Last year Iran's President also said that there is "no homosexuality" in his country. Unofficial reports suggest that anyone caught in same-gender relationships are punished and/or killed there.

So, is this fatwa that "permits" gender reassessment a way for Iran to address homosexuality? In other words, is it so f*cking archaic there, that if you happen to be a homosexual man, the only way you can hope to survive is to undergo surgery?

Meh, you'd all hit it.

And as for "b-b-but she did it when she was 16? WTF?"

Puberty is a one-way-street to masculinity, so the most effective M2F hormone therapy is done before voice change and other masculinisations. That means this girl has been taking hormones since she was a little kid - by the time she was 16, the surgery would probably have felt ridiculously overdue.

It's nasty to make those kinds of decisions so young, but it makes the difference between producing a hot chick or the bearded lady.

What does a Sex Change do anyway? I mean...did she lose her testies and her sex drive because of it?

Dr. Mojo PhD: Yes, how sick indeed. Two independent psychiatrists signed off on the fact that Kim is transsexual. How sick indeed. And what, per chance, is your medical or psychological background?

It's pretty farked up to give a 13 year old boy hormones to deny normal male puberty. You have no idea what might have happened then and neither do they. They're sick farks and I feel sorry for the kid.

But hey, let's pump your prepubescent tomboy daughter full of testosterone until she grows facial hair and never gets her period. I know 2 shrinks who will sign off on it.

stuffy: I think thats her dad.

No, that's her mom. All her estrogen got sucked out when Tim/Kim was born.

/Explains everything

morgantx: Savoir-Faire: You know, if I could change, I would. It seems to me that the ladies really have it, at least while they're young. They're just so crushingly beautiful, I can't comprehend it. I'd have to be attractive though.

More that that, really, is I have convinced myself that women can do what they want and men cannot. I'm so constrained by the conventions of masculinity that I can't have fun or live in the moment. So much seems unattainable. I just don't understand how they manage to have so much fun.

It's probably all in my head.

It's all in your head. I'm a girl who greatly prefers the company and friendship of men. Women are petty and cruel. You can't just dress however you want to around women or else you'll be the butt of all their jokes and you'll be outcast and ostracized permanently. You can't do anything different or step outside the lines. You can't laugh too loud or sit comfortably or play rough or have any fun.

And in my waning years, when the lines start to show on my face and my breasts begin to succumb to gravity (as they inevitably will), I'll be that hideous old woman down the street that nobody wants to even visit, whereas my husband can get fat, wrinkled, and crotchety, and everyone will still think he's pretty cool. Aging is harder on women than it will ever be for men.

Honest advice: befriend some gay women. Stereotypes aside, they tend to be a bit more, um, forgiving about your disdain for fashion and celebrity gossip.

/ Straight male, most of my friends are women and gay men
// Yeah, I'm you. Inverted.

cchris_39: It's pretty farked up

Yes, it is... but they don't do this out of impatience. They do it because starting young is the only way to get a result that doesn't look like a drag queen.

Can someone post a picture of the assailant? For, um, research purposes.

/Sun is blocked. So we will fap in the shade

What Kim may have looked like as Tim.

AirForceVet: Having met several transsexuals, both female-to-male and male-to-female, I find the ignorance and bigotry of some in this thread distrubing.



Fear not, by day on Fark they are posting "that's immoral" but tonight on 4chan they will be posting "I'd hit that with the fist of any angry god"

/preemptive

Dr. Mojo PhD: Does that comfort you, knowing a country that hangs 16-year-old girls by the neck from construction cranes until they're dead for the crime of farking outside marriage has more progressive view points on gender identity and transsexuality than you do?

Ilex: Apples01: If I want to hit that, does that mean I have teh ghey?



This person has a vagina. Would you hit it?

I wouldn't hit that, and I am a girl.

ewww.

cchris_39: Dr. Mojo PhD: Yes, how sick indeed. Two independent psychiatrists signed off on the fact that Kim is transsexual. How sick indeed. And what, per chance, is your medical or psychological background?

It's pretty farked up to give a 13 year old boy hormones to deny normal male puberty. You have no idea what might have happened then and neither do they. They're sick farks and I feel sorry for the kid.

But hey, let's pump your prepubescent tomboy daughter full of testosterone until she grows facial hair and never gets her period. I know 2 shrinks who will sign off on it.

I don't know, as a male I recall wanting to bang chicks by 11 or 12 before I reached puberty so I'm not sure how much difference puberty would have made for this chick. And sine I grew up in the sticks I know for a fact that just because a girl is a tomboy doesn't mean she has any question about her sexuality.

Dr. Mojo PhD, you are my hero.

/Came into the thread to deliver the scientific smackdown to the insecure, uneducated, hateful people in the thread. Glad you're clearing things up for them. Next time I hear someone define XY/XX as the sole determining factor in sex and gender, I'm going to smack them, or post a physiological molecular pathway in the thread, not sure which.
//I like how you are all so quick to reject her, when in reality, no one that attractive would ever want to date anyone of your caliber. Defensive, much?

Birth defect? Chromosome abnormality? Injury? Valid reason to mess with the person's sex with surgery. otherwise, they just need mental help. That boy is not a girl, will never be a real girl.

RemyDuron: Uh. . . 16? They gave her the operation at 16? What the fark? Unless there are some major extenuating circumstance, like the kid was a hermaphrodite and her parents chose one gender but she favored another, that seems pretty reckless and could backfire on the poor kid.

I'm not so sure about that. With something like this, the sooner the better. She's apparently been pretty sure about it her whole life, and began hormone therapy three years ago. Why make her wait? I would think waiting would do more damage.

simpsonfan: Birth defect? Chromosome abnormality? Injury? Valid reason to mess with the person's sex with surgery. otherwise, they just need mental help. That boy is not a girl, will never be a real girl.

Do you even know what a chromosomal abnormality might entail, though? Let's not just look at chromosomes on the whole, but the genes contained within them, and their expression patterns in conjunction with environmental factors. There are genetic, epigenetic, and environmental abnormalities that all can lead to the body developing as one sex and the brain developing as the other. It's just not as simple as you want it to be. Sex itself is determined fairly early on by a relatively small pathway compared to cerebral development, and there's no reason to assume they'd flawlessly work in conjunction. There are MANY biochemical reasons why this would happen. These are the reasons people are transgendered, and they tend to know their gender identity is wrong as soon as they are self-aware. It's always biological in nature, and that should be obvious to anyone who takes the time to talk to a transgendered person. It's not "mental", it's very much real.

Yes, her physical, external phenotype is always going to default to male unless she takes hormones to emulate that which the female body is normally subjected to. But it is well-documented and perfectly plausible that her brain developed as female while her body developed as male, which is certainly more than just a mental problem, it's hard-wired.

Sxooter: So, HAMMERTOE, a woman who never ovulates isn't ever a woman? A young girl who has her ovaries removed before puberty, but takes female hormones and develops otherwise as a woman, isn't a woman because she can't provide an egg for someone to fertilize?

Are all sterile women not women then? Do they stop being a woman at 50 something when they hit menopause?

XY != XX

It's written into every last cell of his body.

Put all the Ford parts on a Chevy you like. A surgical scar, no matter how pretty, is still nothing more than a surgical scar. Props, if you will. People get leopard-spot tattoos and fangs implanted; does that make them leopards? Of course not.

This is another example of self-indulgence taken to extremes.

feanturi: I'm not so sure about that. With something like this, the sooner the better. She's apparently been pretty sure about it her whole life, and began hormone therapy three years ago. Why make her wait? I would think waiting would do more damage.

Exactly. I have many trans friends, and there are far more difficulties if you wait into adulthood to get the operation. It's very hard to pass as female if you allow androgenic influence to preside for so long, because the facial features become obviously male if you do so. While there are plastic surgeries to help with this and feminize, they're pretty rough and don't work all that well. This isn't even to speak of the plasticity problems that come with aging. The sooner, the better -- these people pretty much always know that they're the opposite sex of what their body reflects, it isn't like they wake up when they're 13 and go, "ooh, I wanna be a girl!" You're totally right though, it's absolutely imperative to get it done early, certainly before puberty has taken its effects.

Seriously, NO ONE remembers this from before?

Link (new window)

attention span of a retarded fruit fly: I just dont get the whole act like a fake chick thing. I mean I am not a feminine woman. But I am not transgendered or anything. I act more like a guy but I have all the girly parts. I was looking on youtube and alot of the post surgery "girls" act like flamboyant drag queens. Real women act however they want and most of us dont run around like the fashion plates in magazines.

After meeting a M2F I have two theories:

a) They have some idea of what the ideal female looks like, and they try to emulate that. Maybe it's somewhat liberating to say "I'm a woman now, I'll never wear pants again".

b) they are so insecure about whether they really look female "enough", so that they won't wear anything that doesn't underline their female-ness.
I can be comfortable wearing slacks, because I *know* that I am female, and playing with masculine fashion motifs won't change that. But if a M2F feels the need to hide remnants of her masculinity, the last thing she'd do is wear fashion that alludes to masculinity.

Does that make sense to anyone but me?

so this means she is younger than the jonas brothers?

AR55: Apples01: If I want to hit that, does that mean I have teh ghey?

I would, of course, have to see her naked first before I decide, just to make sure everything was put together correctly.

Dude. She's still 16, this isn't a G8 summit There are rules!


/Hot.... like the trap in question.

rekoil:

Honest advice: befriend some gay women. Stereotypes aside, they tend to be a bit more, um, forgiving about your disdain for fashion and celebrity gossip.

/ Straight male, most of my friends are women and gay men
// Yeah, I'm you. Inverted.

Nah- morgantx's problem is that she enjoys hanging out with men, and their company is enjoyable because they want to fark her. People who want to fark you let tend to things slide- your jokes are funnier, conflict is quickly resolved... acting like the only female company available on earth is the gum-snapping fashionista variety is just a total cop-out. And moving to lesbians probably won't help with that.

/and they do all want to fark you
//and it's provable

rekoil:

Honest advice: befriend some gay women. Stereotypes aside, they tend to be a bit more, um, forgiving about your disdain for fashion and celebrity gossip.

/ Straight male, most of my friends are women and gay men
// Yeah, I'm you. Inverted.

Nah- morgantx's problem is that she enjoys hanging out with men, and their company is enjoyable because they want to fark her. People who want to fark you let tend to things slide- your jokes are funnier, conflict is quickly resolved... acting like the only female company available on earth is the gum-snapping fashionista variety is just a total cop-out. And moving to lesbians probably won't help with that.

/and they do all want to fark you
//and it's provable

Sorry wrong thread- here ya go



random atonement image

Boberto: Unless one was also to agree that hanging 16-year old girls by their neck from construction cranes is progressive, your point is moot. Iran - the shining beacon of progressive policies.

I could bother to explain the point of using a regressive, reactionary regime being in full agreement with scientific and clinical research to illustrate how out of touch the "THE CORRECT PRONOUN IS IT!" people are, but I think it would go over your head.

UnspokenVoice: Abominations are amusing, that's it.

DURRRRRRR HURRRRRRRRRRR HURRRRRRRRRRRR.

Timmy the Tumor: Last year Iran's President also said that there is "no homosexuality" in his country. Unofficial reports suggest that anyone caught in same-gender relationships are punished and/or killed there.

So, is this fatwa that "permits" gender reassessment a way for Iran to address homosexuality? In other words, is it so f*cking archaic there, that if you happen to be a homosexual man, the only way you can hope to survive is to undergo surgery?

It's a mercurial area. After Thailand, Iran is the largest performer of sex reassignment surgery in the world. The fatwa on transsexuality and transgenderism does not ostensibly apply to homosexuality. Its content and context clearly states that SRS is only available for diagnosed transsexuals. Separate laws govern homosexuals, and the punishments are quite dire.

It's clear, however, that it is suggested that homosexuals in Iran use Iran's lenient view on transsexualism as an escape from the country's harsh laws on homosexuality.

It's, again, a far less than ideal situation if true because gay men don't want to be women with a partner who is attracted to women, they want to be men with a partner who is attracted to men. It spares them their life, at the cost of their mental health.

cchris_39: It's pretty farked up to give a 13 year old boy hormones to deny normal male puberty. You have no idea what might have happened then and neither do they. They're sick farks and I feel sorry for the kid.

Yes, we do not what will happen. Their sex characteristics will be suppressed, which is the ideal in this situation. The gonads will become more manageable, the secondary sex organs will not develop, the secondary sex characteristics will be repressed -- they will not grow body hair in typically male areas, the body odor will not be as strong, the hips will broaden instead of the shoulders, muscle mass and density will not increase as much, the voice will not break and deepen as much, bone mass will not increase as much, there will be more fat deposits, and they will grow breasts.

That is what will happen with hormone therapy. I know it, and they know it. The only person who doesn't know it is you.

But hey, let's pump your prepubescent tomboy daughter full of testosterone until she grows facial hair and never gets her period. I know 2 shrinks who will sign off on it.

As somebody who has almost exclusively favoured dating tomboys in my life, I can pretty confidently say that your average tomboy doesn't identify as a man, doesn't want to be a man, isn't a lesbian, and -- this is why I date them -- they're actually far more sensitive and feminine than any of the lipstick-mouthed shovelfaces I've ever seen.

So hey, not only are you clueless about transsexuality, you're also inexperienced with women.

But you know what? If my 46, XX or 47, XXX daughter has identified as a male -- identified as, not merely with -- since the age of 2, desires to be a man, feels trapped in an incorrect body, and is transsexual, I would make sure she got the hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery she needed.

Of course, I actually think I'd be a good, supportive parent. You, on the other hand, think tomboys are dykes who want to be boys.

simpsonfan: Birth defect? Chromosome abnormality? Injury? Valid reason to mess with the person's sex with surgery. otherwise, they just need mental help. That boy is not a girl, will never be a real girl.

qv. HURR DURR et al.

katastrophe: Dr. Mojo PhD, you are my hero.

And yet I get the sneaky feeling I've reached no one.

simpsonfan: Birth defect? Chromosome abnormality? Injury? Valid reason to mess with the person's sex with surgery. otherwise, they just need mental help. That boy is not a girl, will never be a real girl.

I have seen her on German TV pre- and post-OP and as far as I can tell she's just a girl. You would never guess she was a boy if you didn't know.

heinekev: buk110: He's really cute...


Shame it's just another homosexual that wanted to be the catcher rather than the pitcher....He's a very talented popstar I'm sure

But you know what - it's a slap in the face to God the almighty. For the Bible says we are here on this earth to have children. To do this is an abomination - and he will burn in the eternal flames of hell for all time...

What a sick sick person he is

gay bash
religious overtones
intolerance

6/10, strong effort

i give it a 3/10. higher scores for quoting actual scripture.

Dr. Mojo PhD: RemyDuron: 16. I have no problem with sex changes, but I think that is too young. Too much potential for something to change. There's a reason it's generally harder to diagnose young people with certain psychological conditions.


And yet transsexuality is not one of those conditions. Transsexuals universally identify as the opposite gender from day 1. This isn't a mere whim. Transsexuality isn't homosexuality, it's not about attraction, it's about identity. This isn't college experimentation or two lipstick lesbians making out to get you hard. It's not hermaphrodism.

The fact of the matter is, any and all transsexuals will identify as the opposite physical gender. There's not even a counter-argument there -- barring actual mental illness, a person doesn't just wake up and say they're a woman when they were born with testes and a penis. And, of course, that's precisely why psychiatrists and physicians administer a battery of tests to ensure that the person actually is transgendered and not mentally ill.

The surgery and procedures should be performed as early as possible, especially for the health of the transsexual. Fighting the body's natural hormones isn't as healthy as redirecting those hormones, and the primary and secondary sex characteristics forming the adult body are difficult to reverse; for the transsexual's mental health and stability its better to nip that in the bud than it is to permit a mixing of sex characteristics or to allow the sex characteristics to develop fully. It also requires less surgery to do so.

As for the age of the surgery, what's the problem? Post-natal infants undergo procedures if they're considered life-saving. Children and teens undergo life saving procedures. Would you object to a radical nephrectomy if Kim had metastatic renal carcinoma? Is she too young for that, too? Or does only physical health matter?

Yeah, forget the mental strain it will put on her. Forget suicidal ideations, depression, bullying, persecution. Forget anxiety, mood swings, and a general inability to fit in. Forget the fact that attracting a mate -- one of the primary biological imperatives -- becomes nigh impossible because transsexual men do not desire homosexual men or heterosexual woman. Forget all that mental and consequently, according to massive amounts of research, physical strain it will put on her even if she does consider suicide. The relatively harmless procedure that may save her life and give a fully realised sovereign moral agent piece of mind and a place in the world is wrong because she's 16 and not 18, a total whopping difference of a maximum of 731 days if the transsexual's birthday between those ages happens to fall on a leap year.

After all, so much can change in 731 days. A person who grows up a girl, identifies as a girl since as far back as they can remember self-identification, for 16 years, is going to change her mind in the span of a little more than 100 weeks.

She's only been alive for 5844 days (again accounting for leap years), identifying as a woman even before the onset of those horribly confusing puberty symptoms we all went through. You know, all those wet dreams, breaking voices, awkward hair growth and the sudden and sporadic desire for a vagina. I mean, when you take that into account, she really should wait till she's 18, right?

I'm sure the additional 11.1% of her lifespan she has to reflect on why she's wanted to be a woman her entire life will suddenly make her wipe her brow and go "phew, I'm glad I waited all these years to come to the exact same condition, only will now have to undergo corrective cosmetic surgery to alter all these changes to my body which would not have happened to me if I'd just gotten the operation two years ago. The additional invasive medical procedures, expenses, recovery time, mental strain and fatigue, persecution, loneliness, and depression sure were worth it to assure my anonymous internet critics that I really do want to be a woman, because it really does sort of seem like deciding what you should major in in college -- with us teenagers ...

Dr. Mojo PhD: Epsilon: I'm skeptical about that. I'm not a doctor, but common sense tells me it's unwise to do such a radical surgical procedure on someone who is not fully physically matured.

Yeah, well that's your problem, isn't it? The whole point of sex reassignment is to give the transsexual person some peace of mind. To give them a body that they identify with. The sooner it is performed, the better. You think it's wise to let them mature into a fully sexualized male or female body, then do the operation?

That's the surgical equivalent of letting a tumor grow to its most malignant size before removing it. It virtually defeats the entire purpose of the surgery in the first place.

Most responsible plastic surgeons discourage girls under 18 from even getting breast implants, for the reason that they're still growing and it's difficult to predict how their future growth might adversely affect them post-op.

And most responsible plastic surgeons will perform breast reductions on girls who have breasts so large as to cause chronic pain. Most responsible plastic surgeons will perform an implant or reduction on girls who have lobsided breasts. Most responsible plastic surgeons will perform breast reduction on teenage men with severe gynecomastia. Most responsible plastic surgeons will perform facial reconstruction and skin grafting on child burn victims. Most responsible plastic surgeons will perform any operation which is therapeutic to the patient.

What you're doing is equivocating. You're assuming that cosmetic = plastic = elective surgery. You're not differentiating between Marsha wanting bigger boobs because Marsha wants all the boys and Marsha wanting bigger boobs because one is an A cup and the other is a C cup. You're assuming sexual reassignment surgery is the same thing as a rhinoplasty to fix a Roman nose.

Oh hey, guess what: It's not. While it involves external, cosmetic changes it is most definitely done for a reason.

Sex change operations should be viewed with even more careful analysis in teenagers. The potential for unwanted side effects seems awfully risky. Wouldn't it be better if they waited a few years?

Unwanted side-effects like what? What unwanted side-effects are you imagining? It's not like their penis grows back after the surgery. Are you dropping medical buzzwords to advance your point or do you actually understand what you're talking about?

What could happen to a 16-year-old that couldn't happen to an 18-year-old during SRS? They grow a second head?

Here's the reality: The older they get, the less plastic they get. They're less malleable, and the changes their bodies undergo are far more set in stone. It's far more invasive, and therefore dangerous, to the person to wait. It's far less invasive to intervene early, perform a few treatments, and let nature take it the rest of way. Anything else is in your imagination.

I just wanted to quote these to see how long of a post I could make.

IMHO: Who cares, let people do what they want.

Currently hot? Check

Currently no penis? Check

What's the problem here?

This was not the definition of sex swap I was looking for

/dang you, subby

S.A.S.Q.U.A.T.C.H.: I just wanted to quote these to see how long of a post I could make.

What, putting your fingers next to a line break and counting in your head only comes up next week in school?

Dr. Mojo PhD: And yet I get the sneaky feeling I've reached no one.

People are never going to admit that they're unknowledgeable about something, in particular, something that they're irrationally afraid of. I could give them a thousand scientific papers proving them wrong, and it wouldn't matter, because they feel uncomfortable and would rather lash out at others and continue being hateful than admit that they're incorrect. It feels better on their part to get angry and spew hateful language than have to confront their discomfort face-on. Quite pitiful and childish, really.

But, don't feel bad. The day that people change their misinformed, outlandish opinions because of a well-reasoned argument on Fark, I'll know for certain that hell has frozen over.

*reads TFA*

...oh. That's not what they meant by sex swap.

katastrophe: People are never going to admit that they're unknowledgeable about something, in particular, something that they're irrationally afraid of. I could give them a thousand scientific papers proving them wrong, and it wouldn't matter, because they feel uncomfortable and would rather lash out at others and continue being hateful than admit that they're incorrect. It feels better on their part to get angry and spew hateful language than have to confront their discomfort face-on. Quite pitiful and childish, really.

Haha, yeah. I always take comfort in that study that showed unknowledgeable feel more knowledgeable than they actually are. Not because it reinforces anything for me, but if you couple it with some well-reasoned argument you just know somewhere it's striking a nerve, their testicles are retracting, their back is against the wall, they're seething from embarrassment and there's nothing they can do about it.

But, don't feel bad. The day that people change their misinformed, outlandish opinions because of a well-reasoned argument on Fark, I'll know for certain that hell has frozen over.

Let's be realistic here... either that or you're far, far more optimistic than I am.

Bondith: *reads TFA*

...oh. That's not what they meant by sex swap.

Good to know I wasn't the only one that had that first impression.

The haters are just self-righteous think-they-know-it-alls. For some reason there's this obsession with the idea that children can't make choices, or that parents aren't allowed to make serious decisions for their children and that they have to wait until the kid is 18 when he/she is magically old enough to decide.

There was an episode of Nip/Tuck in which they were debating whether to correct a baby's hand deformity. Eventually, the mom was convinced to not allow doctors to perform it and wait until the kid grew up, thanks to junk scientific studies suggesting that babies remembered the pain of surgeries. In the show's sci-fi surgery world, they eventually gave the boy a normal hand when he was grown up, 20 years later. Hopefully, in 20 years we will actually have the ability to surgically correct almost any birth defect but for now, if you want to fix something, you need to do it early. Waiting until the child is grown is luxury that medical science just doesn't provide.

As for the girl in the article, it would have been totally wrong to force her to wait until after male puberty kicks in, giving her a man's face, height, bone structure, and deep voice. I'm sorry if you can't get past the fact that you think transgenderism is weird, but don't force your opinions on those who have to deal with it personally.

cchris_39: Dr. Mojo PhD: Yes, how sick indeed. Two independent psychiatrists signed off on the fact that Kim is transsexual. How sick indeed. And what, per chance, is your medical or psychological background?

It's pretty farked up to give a 13 year old boy hormones to deny normal male puberty. You have no idea what might have happened then and neither do they. They're sick farks and I feel sorry for the kid.

But hey, let's pump your prepubescent tomboy daughter full of testosterone until she grows facial hair and never gets her period. I know 2 shrinks who will sign off on it.


There are documented cases of "boys" in the same situation that she was in harming themselves or outright killing themselves as their body changed into something they hated.

If it is the best thing for the child then good for them. In this case it clearly appears to be.

Also, just for the thread's reference. Even sex determination is not as simple a pathway as everyone is suggesting. This is a bare outline of it, only including the most significant molecules and anatomical featurs. There are documented mistakes at every single step in this pathway that take place in humans, some more common than others. A Y chromosome is important because it has the SRY gene, which can be translocated to an X in meiosis and yield an XX female. If you have a Y with no SRY gene, you'll get an XY female. Gender determination probably involves 10 times the number of genes, if not more. It is just not as simple as everyone wants it to be.

Dr. Mojo PhD: Haha, yeah. I always take comfort in that study that showed unknowledgeable feel more knowledgeable than they actually are. Not because it reinforces anything for me, but if you couple it with some well-reasoned argument you just know somewhere it's striking a nerve, their testicles are retracting, their back is against the wall, they're seething from embarrassment and there's nothing they can do about it.

Yeah, I just take pleasure in cornering angry, ill-informed people with evidence that they can't refute. I know they won't change their minds, but it sure is fun to watch them squirm.

adhamh:


good lord. is that it? i would totally hit it.

Miggity: adhamh:


good lord. is that it? i would totally hit it.



Pictures are really worth 2 words in this case.

I would also like to point out that gender is not the cut and dry subject that many of the people here seem to think it is

http://www.carolguze.com/text/442-6-sexual_differentiation.shtml

http://www.gender.org.uk/about/05devel/52_imper.htm

and look up huevos en doce

it is a condition where little girls turn into men at puberty.

Then you have gynecomastia where some men grow breasts. I have it, and so does http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwayne_Johnson AKA the rock. He had surgery to get rid of his, I am poor so I still have mine.

Renowned transvestite sexologist: /Wearing a beak and putting feathers up my ass doesn't make me a chicken.

Pics or it didn't happen.

child abuse.

atomic-age: Ilex: Apples01: If I want to hit that, does that mean I have teh ghey?



This person has a vagina. Would you hit it?

I wouldn't hit that, and I am a girl.

ewww.

I would, vaginas don't scare me.

Dr. Mojo PhD: And yet I get the sneaky feeling I've reached no one.

Not many sane people would agree with you thus you've "reached no one." Imagine that... You're basically saying that it is natural to want to call the Sun "The bright square shining black thing in the ground." No, no it isn't right, it isn't okay, it's people like you appeasing the mentally ill and encouraging more of it.

But, that's okay... You can think and feel that way, I don't mind. Personal freedom, choices, etc... They're all good. You can make the choice to accept abominations or you can not worry about being politically correct and you can be honest with yourself and those around you.

My rule is simple:

If the person is cute, not too hairy, and has an orifice aside from the anus where I can make the sex with them, then I don't care what they were before I met them.

Some of you are so judgmental! An attractive person is an attractive person, and their gender history only matters when it affects their personality and behavior.

If it acts like a cute girl, and looks like a cute girl, and makes love like a cute girl, then it must be a cute girl.

ZeroCorpse: My rule is simple:

If the person is cute, not too hairy, and has an orifice aside from the anus where I can make the sex with them, then I don't care what they were before I met them.

Some of you are so judgmental! An attractive person is an attractive person, and their gender history only matters when it affects their personality and behavior.

If it acts like a cute girl, and looks like a cute girl, and makes love like a cute girl, then it must be a cute girl.

you sir, are a homo... nttiawwt

ZeroCorpse: My rule is simple:

If the person is cute, not too hairy, and has an orifice aside from the anus where I can make the sex with them, then I don't care what they were before I met them.

Some of you are so judgmental! An attractive person is an attractive person, and their gender history only matters when it affects their personality and behavior.

If it acts like a cute girl, and looks like a cute girl, and makes love like a cute girl, then it must be a cute girl.

FAG

RemyDuron
Uh. . . 16? They gave her the operation at 16? What the fark? Unless there are some major extenuating circumstance, like the kid was a hermaphrodite and her parents chose one gender but she favored another, that seems pretty reckless and could backfire on the poor kid.

Backfire indeed. If the kid's just an attention whore, he/she just Darwin'ed herself/himself out of the gene pool.

Dr. Mojo PhD: I don't know you, but you are my new farking hero.

You go, girl or guy! Best doctor evah!

/ Happy hetero with peener, who thinks others' sex lives are their own business... unless they're sharing, in which case juicy tidbits are usually interesting!

dcigary: Holy Tapdancing Jeebus WTF is that NEXT to her?!?!

That's the gal that had the sex change.

UnspokenVoice: Not many sane people would agree with you thus you've "reached no one." Imagine that... You're basically saying that it is natural to want to call the Sun "The bright square shining black thing in the ground." No, no it isn't right, it isn't okay, it's people like you appeasing the mentally ill and encouraging more of it.

Uh huh. I like the strawman, too. It's also sort of ironic because it actually applies more to you -- like if a physicist said that the sun was a nuclear furnace converting hydrogen to helium, and you were all like "nuh-uh any common man can plainly see it's a great ball of fire and you just don't know what you're talking about." The whole anti-scientific rhetoric swaddled in some laughably pro-science strawman is ... I don't know, it's like that warm fuzzy feeling I get when I know a retarded child is going home without feces in his diapers.

Now, meat and potatoes time: Where did you get your MD in psychiatry? Where did you take your surgeon's specialization? What institute of higher learning conferred a PhD on psychology or physiology or biology on you?

Again, I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say "none". If I had to make a best guess, I'm going to say you've got a Bachelor's degree at most, and probably not in a scientific or critical field.

Which really leads me to the question, then, is how are you in any way fit to make diagnoses about the mentally ill and who does or does not fit into it?

Is there anything about your body you would change, if you could -- any sort of body dysmorphism at all? Do you have anything in your genetic heritage you do not identify with, say a racial heritage or something?

Don't bother answering, I know the answer is "yes". And hey, unlike your tortured invalid analogy strawman about the sun, there is actually a tautology here; since this is what transsexuals suffer from, dysmorphism and identity issues, hey, that makes you mentally ill by your own admission.

Broom: I don't know you, but you are my new farking hero.

You go, girl or guy! Best doctor evah!

/ Happy hetero with peener, who thinks others' sex lives are their own business... unless they're sharing, in which case juicy tidbits are usually interesting!

Guy, hetero, (almost) married, no kids, dog, smoker, aged 25-39, white as the Irish (which makes sense, given), Canadian, etc.

All very vanilla. Learned to be threatened by threatening actions, no THE SCURRY DIFFERENT PEOPLE. Person tries to run me over with car, threatening, person wants to remove their penis and live as a woman, very non-threatening. Never understood any other line of reasoning.

I think that there's just a lot of "I NO I HOPE I HAVEN'T SLEPT WITH A SECRET XY-WOMAN" penis shrinking Zionist robot comb style terror here.

you cant cure the ghey its natural nature doesnt make mistakes, OOOHHHHHHHH you want to whack off the penis yea we can do that nature made a mistake.

me thinks the older sisters tortured poor little BOY about his penis. or HE never got over his vagina envy

i am going home to the 50's. fark all you enlightened ones.

bumkusfiveal: me thinks the older sisters tortured poor little BOY about his penis. or HE never got over his vagina envy

You got a hummer from the tranny, didn't you?

darrent83: A large proportion of the men getting gender reassignment surgery are not trans at all but simply gay men.

Supposedly, that was the case in western nations when sexual reassignment surgery first came out.

These days, everyone is screened. A friend of mine who went through the process was required to have 12 hour-long sessions with a licensed psychiatrist before being prescribed hormones. From there, s/he had to come in every month for a year before s/he could get a letter of referral for cosmetic surgery (facial reconstruction). Once s/he recovered, s/he transitioned full time.

Even then, s/he had to live a full year as a woman, with monthly appointments with the psychiatrist, before s/he could get a letter of recommendation for gender reassignment surgery. All together, s/he spent around three years under the care of a psychiatrist before the final surgery.

From what I have heard and read, once you reach puberty, if you have these kinds of feelings, they generally don't go away. There were a few reports that said that the rate of relapse for teenagers who were "cured" of their gender identity issues was fairly high.

To compound problems, the relapse generally occurs in their 30s and 40s. Many of these people had families with children by that point. Having a parent transition is psychologically devastating to a child. Others simply commit suicide rather than transition. For many, it is very destructive to transition at that age.

Despite what all the haters in the thread think, the girl in the article is most likely going to live a very healthy, happy life. You don't go through all of that screening and suddenly go "oops, maybe I shouldn't have chopped off my pecker". It doesn't work that way.

The closer to puberty you can identify and transition, the better.

Dr. Mojo PhD: And yet I get the sneaky feeling I've reached no one.

You know what they say, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." There are simply some people out there that will never allow themselves to accept that nature is wrong, no matter how convincing the argument. I could post a video of a panther killing and dragging her young into a tree because she's hungry and some people would still defend it.

There are clearly a great deal of farkers in here that are reading your mail, but I think they already subscribed to the same newsletter to begin with.

HAMMERTOE: Sxooter: So, HAMMERTOE, a woman who never ovulates isn't ever a woman? A young girl who has her ovaries removed before puberty, but takes female hormones and develops otherwise as a woman, isn't a woman because she can't provide an egg for someone to fertilize?

Are all sterile women not women then? Do they stop being a woman at 50 something when they hit menopause?

XY != XX

It's written into every last cell of his body.

Put all the Ford parts on a Chevy you like. A surgical scar, no matter how pretty, is still nothing more than a surgical scar. Props, if you will. People get leopard-spot tattoos and fangs implanted; does that make them leopards? Of course not.

This is another example of self-indulgence taken to extremes.

What!!! How dare you imply I'm not a vampire leopard. I was born that way, really really.

British: Talk about your manufactured pop stars.

Good one!

+1, golf clap

gweilo8888: Anybody else read this as "youngest ever sex swap pornstar"?

/shudders to think what this says about me

Nah, there are at least two of us

Ok so if s/he looks like a girl, s/he smells like a girl, feels like a girl and operates like a girl then why would attraction to him/her make a guy ghey?

In this situation this person could easily pass in public as a female with nobody here any wiser thanks to the quick reaction to his/her personality as a child.

For you "genetic basis advocates", sure genetically she's got guy chromosomes, but isn't that nothing more than a genetic blueprint? Obviously it can't be all-encompassing in determining gender if hormones can alter the end result.

If I buy a 2 bdr house and turn one bedroom into a garage, is it still a 2 bedroom garage? No. It's still a house and for all intensive purposes the blueprints may still remain identical if the location of the garage is practical.

/attraction, it's all a matter of perspective
//if it were an abomination unto god, why would he allow his creation to be so malleable?

HAMMERTOE: XY != XX

It's written into every last cell of his body.

Put all the Ford parts on a Chevy you like. A surgical scar, no matter how pretty, is still nothing more than a surgical scar. Props, if you will. People get leopard-spot tattoos and fangs implanted; does that make them leopards? Of course not.

This is another example of self-indulgence taken to extremes.

And then there's you. Forgot about you.

OK, let's get cracking.

First, your idea that 46, XY is the only chromosomal configuration for a male. Laughable.

Your comparison of animal paraphilia to transsexualism and transgendrism. DSM-IV clearly delineates the two. Also laughable.

And if all the Ford parts are in a Chevy, literally makes it a Ford in a Chevy's body. So that's a failed analogy accidentally proving the opposite point you were trying to make.

So good for you, your entire post can be summarized by the three massive mental farkups you had to make to write it.

Cthulhu Theory: Ok so if s/he looks like a girl, s/he smells like a girl, feels like a girl and operates like a girl then why would attraction to him/her make a guy ghey?

In this situation this person could easily pass in public as a female with nobody here any wiser thanks to the quick reaction to his/her personality as a child.

For you "genetic basis advocates", sure genetically she's got guy chromosomes, but isn't that nothing more than a genetic blueprint? Obviously it can't be all-encompassing in determining gender if hormones can alter the end result.

If I buy a 2 bdr house and turn one bedroom into a garage, is it still a 2 bedroom garage house? No. It's still a house and for all intensive purposes the blueprints may still remain identical if the location of the garage is practical.

/attraction, it's all a matter of perspective
//if it were an abomination unto god, why would he allow his creation to be so malleable?

FTFM

Cthulhu Theory: If I buy a 2 bdr house and turn one bedroom into a garage, is it still a 2 bedroom garage? No. It's still a house and for all intensive purposes the blueprints may still remain identical if the location of the garage is practical.

I like you, but please, please, use the correct term "all intents and purposes" before I have a seizure and an aneurysm all at the same time. (And also I think you meant 2 bedroom house, not garage... but that's obvious. But please, think of the children with the all intensive purposes thing. They do suffer so.)

I love medical science.

Go scientists!

...but she's a man, baby

TwistedFark: Grass Hopper: cchris_39: RemyDuron: Uh. . . 16? They gave her the operation at 16? What the fark? Unless there are some major extenuating circumstance, like the kid was a hermaphrodite and her parents chose one gender but she favored another, that seems pretty reckless and could backfire on the poor kid.

Agreed - and apparently they started on her on hormones at 13 to suppress the testosterone surge.

Really sick stuff.

Maybe. On the other hand (just playing devil's advocate) if s/he still wanted to be a woman at 18, then the body would have gone through a lot of changes that would be hard to reverse/overcome - something s/he avoided this way by changing early.

/not sure this is right or wrong. Just interesting.

Not really. The hormones should have stopped that. The real argument I suppose is "whats the magic number at which a human being can accept responsibility for their actions".

The answer seems to vary quite a deal :O

I see your point - hormones until age of Majority.

Dr. Mojo PhD: Cthulhu Theory: If I buy a 2 bdr house and turn one bedroom into a garage, is it still a 2 bedroom garage? No. It's still a house and for all intensive purposes the blueprints may still remain identical if the location of the garage is practical.

I like you, but please, please, use the correct term "all intents and purposes" before I have a seizure and an aneurysm all at the same time. (And also I think you meant 2 bedroom house, not garage... but that's obvious. But please, think of the children with the all intensive purposes thing. They do suffer so.)

Thanks for pointing that out, I make that mistake a lot, something I picked up from my family. I'm not entirely sure where I stand on this whole gender change thing. I do believe that XY does mean you're genetically a man, but like I said that's malleable and, for all "intents and purposes," I feel it boils down to how you appear to others.

I've a roommate that recently made a trip to meet a pre-op who's saving up for his gender reassignment, but still looks like a girl. I think the important part is how you view the person. You may know that it is/was a guy, but you view him as a female then ultimately the guy is no longer a guy but a female in your minds eye.

/Just because she WAS a man doesn't mean she still IS a man.
//Again it's all a matter of perspective
///understands it's human nature to be judgemental especially of the things we don't understand or even think we understand

HAMMERTOE: Despite all appearances, he won't be a "woman" until his first ovulation.


At her most recent concert, she received a standing ovulation

I don't know how good they are at the whole reconstructive surgery thing but I've seen a lot of phaginas, and I bet that a reconstructed one looks.... "fake."


/ seen a lot of phaginas
// you can tell from the pixels
/// 'shopped

TheSignPost: I don't know how good they are at the whole reconstructive surgery thing but I've seen a lot of phaginas, and I bet that a reconstructed one looks.... "fake."


/ seen a lot of phaginas
// you can tell from the pixels
/// 'shopped

do some googling, the good ones are pretty realistic looking, don't know how well they 'perform' though.

don't matter what happens to her, she'll still be far less f*cked up than Michael Jackson's "children"

I hate it when I miss a thread like this.

Miggity: adhamh:


good lord. is that it? i would totally hit it.

Who's the sleestak?

WhyteRaven74: I hate it when I miss a thread like this.

I know, you could have taught these guys a thing or two! Don't miss it next time, I need more allies. :)

TheSignPost: I don't know how good they are at the whole reconstructive surgery thing but I've seen a lot of phaginas, and I bet that a reconstructed one looks.... "fake."


/ seen a lot of phaginas
// you can tell from the pixels
/// 'shopped

There have been some amazing advances in surgery, and it makes for a fascinating afternoon (at least) of reading if you're up for it. The original surgeries were rather crude in nature, but as time has gone on and some brilliant surgeons have entered the game, they can make everything look indistinguishable from other women. Going female to male presents far more challenges, but male to female can look extremely realistic and function very well, too. It all depends on the skill of the surgeon, and luck as to how you'll heal up (some people just end up with more sensation and functionality than others).

Dr. Mojo PhD: I think that there's just a lot of "I NO I HOPE I HAVEN'T SLEPT WITH A SECRET XY-WOMAN" penis shrinking Zionist robot comb style terror here.

Oh yes, I know I bring my karyotyping kit every time I seek out a guy to date. :D

Renowned transvestite sexologist: Wearing a beak and putting feathers up my ass doesn't make me a chicken.

I know people who'd pay good money for that kind of action.

Ok, who is this?



and this pics makes my no no place feel funny.

""I only ever did girls' stuff and only ever had female friends. I always wanted to play with dolls. I loved dresses and the colour pink - I was a totally girly girl." "

You can be a boy and still do this stuff. Nothing says you can only do this if you have a vagina.

katastrophe: I know, you could have taught these guys a thing or two! Don't miss it next time, I need more allies. :)

hehe if I had been able to check what was going over night, I would've seen this in the upcoming links list or seen it when it showed up on the main page.

There have been some amazing advances in surgery

That there have been. To the point to where a good doc can make it so only another doc can tell it's not original equipment. And even then, it takes some looking around.

Course besides the obvious surgery other surgery has improved to help things too, though it falls under the realm of more general plastic surgery, things like scraping down an adam's apple, facial feminization surgery etc. Though a bunch of the improvement is just better plastic surgeons getting in on it.

Dr. Mojo PhD: And yet I get the sneaky feeling I've reached no one.

Imagine how I feel in these threads ;) And thanks for picking up the slack brought on by me not being here

/kept saying it was waitng for Fark last night, every other page loaded right away except for Fark

Wouldn't "it" be a bit dry or what do you re-route for that?

gbv23: HAMMERTOE: Despite all appearances, he won't be a "woman" until his first ovulation.


At her most recent concert, she received a standing ovulation

At first I was like :|
But then I was like :D

MK-Ultra71: Ok, who is this?




Linetrap: http://www.myspace.com/gayforbridget

Dr. Mojo PhD

Trans-Farkette here, you've done a valiant job of fighting the tide of idiocy. You might not have reached anyone, but for what it's worth, thanks for trying. :)

darrent83: Dinjiin, why quote me at all if your going to totally ignore the point of my post? I mean you took a sentence fragment and then went on a rant that totally differed from what I was trying to say. I was never saying that this happens now a days in the western world. But it still goes on in Iran.

Eventually, things will change in Iran. Once they get their act together and throw the theocratic government out, there is a good chance that Iran will move to a western model for psychiatric care, and that gender reassignment will no longer be a back door for effeminate gay men to live their lifestyle.

I think the question we all have on our mind is what does he/she look like down there? Does it feel real? And, could I hit it without thinking about "it" being a dude in the back of my mind?

dougfm: Vash's Apprentice: ftfy
/sorry, couldn't resist :p

Did it even occur in that pea brain of yours to just quote the one line your moron picture went with?

Sorry, I tried being too clever and it backfired on me.
/Makes mental note:no more morning editing
//P.S.:Lighten up, Francis

you_idiot: ""I only ever did girls' stuff and only ever had female friends. I always wanted to play with dolls. I loved dresses and the colour pink - I was a totally girly girl." "

You can be a boy and still do this stuff. Nothing says you can only do this if you have a vagina.

Look at her. She's a scrawny little one who's into girly stuff.

As a boy, she'd be an epic farking failure. As a girl, she's epic farking win. And all she's changed is gender.

Can you blame her for choosing that life?

Pxtl: As a boy, she'd be an epic farking failure. As a girl, she's epic farking win. And all she's changed is gender.

That's a point a lot of people don't get. And if they don't, it's hard as hell to explain it to them. I mean it's not just about feeling out of place in your own body, but just not being able to innately act right or relate to things.

/would be so screwed if not for my love of sports, video games and nerd stuff
//even then, fail at teh dude stuff, badly

ColdFusion: Dr. Mojo PhD

Trans-Farkette here, you've done a valiant job of fighting the tide of idiocy. You might not have reached anyone, but for what it's worth, thanks for trying. :)

Well, I was on the fence as to the age at which this was done, but much of his argument helped to sway me fully to the side that this was the correct course of action. Your time was not totally wasted, if that makes anyone feel better.

Well, I was on the fence as to the age at which this was done, but much of his argument helped to sway me fully to the side that this was the correct course of action. Your time was not totally wasted, if that makes anyone feel better.

I can say with extreme ease that I knew as far back as I could remember that something was wrong, but I couldn't put a word to it. Until I was 13 and learned that there was even a word for how I felt, I thought I was the only person in the world who felt that way. To a kid, that's the worst feeling in the world, to be lonely like that. There was no way I could've told anyone. Once I found out there were other people, though, I told my mother.

But, because I was 13, she said I was confused, took me to a "Christian Therapist" to get "fixed". It didn't work, clearly. I had a few suicide attempts with pills, almost drank a drain-o smoothie before a friend talked me out of it. I tried to "deal", and I repressed it for a while, but my mom disbelieving me and not helping me, it farked up my head for about a decade until things eventually came to a head all my little "coping tricks" stopped working, and I had to confront it.

Now, I've got to fight my own biology and a whole host of other legal and personal issues that would've been less painful for everyone involved if it was just handled sooner. Hell, part of it might have been covered by my parent's health insurance when I was little (not the surgery, but the therapy and doctor's visits and such) but I can't even GET insurance because I'm trans, even if I walked into CIGNA HQ with a briefcase full of $100's. They won't touch me now; disqualifying pre-existing condition, after all.

I'd give a kidney and my left eye if I could've done what this girl's done. But at least I can hope her example means that that someone like me won't have to go through what I did because people don't understand it.

ok, I would hit it and bet I would get anal from her too!

XX = female

XY = male

If you are XY, then you are a male. If you are XY and take artificial hormones and have your penis surgically transformed into a "vagina," then you are still a male. But, now you have a mutilated penis.

Approve

/obscure to some?
//link hotter than the summer of 76

Did they also remove all reason and accountability?

Dr. Mojo PhD has plummetted into this thread like a ninja riding a lightning bolt into the centre of a thousand rioting demons. It is a thing of great beauty to watch him smack his opponents upside the head with his butterfly kicks of justice. LOGIC! *pow* SCIENCE! *pow* PSYCHOLOGY! *pow* I am not ashamed to admit that as I read this thread, I wept a single tear of joy.

That is all.

ColdFusion: I can say with extreme ease that I knew as far back as I could remember that something was wrong

In my case, I always knew what I wanted. Just got lucky and knew saying anything to my parents would be bad mojo. But a bunch of the other details are the same.

jigger: If you are XY, then you are a male

Even if the single gene on the Y chromosome that triggers male development is defective and thus that development never occurs resulting in a female body?

Mole Man: Approve

hah niiice

Pxtl: As a boy, she'd be an epic farking failure. As a girl, she's epic farking win. And all she's changed is gender.

Technically all she changed was sex, her gender remained the same. I know, it's confusing, because so often in the States we use gender as a PC term for sex, but they are two different things. Sex is the physical stuff, gender is the mental stuff though.

But yeah, I was pretty much considered to be a dweeb/dork/nerd whatever, but because I had some masculine interests I was able to pass as a man for years. When I finally transitioned and started living as a woman, relationships became a lot easier in some aspects. I had a girlfriend for a few years, we broke up, now I'm living with another woman who is absolutely wonderful, and we just celebrated our 1 year anniversary of being together. I guess what I'm saying is you're absolutely right in that failure tends to happen when you're not in the right body and can't relate to other people.

jigger: XX = female

XY = male

If you are XY, then you are a male. If you are XY and take artificial hormones and have your penis surgically transformed into a "vagina," then you are still a male. But, now you have a mutilated penis.

So what is your point? Wow, so you have specific chromosomes, big deal. No one cares about chromosomes, people care about appearance and genitals.

jigger: XX = female

XY = male

If you are XY, then you are a male. If you are XY and take artificial hormones and have your penis surgically transformed into a "vagina," then you are still a male. But, now you have a mutilated penis.

Does it really matter to you that much?

Be pragmatic.

If she lived as a boy, she'd be a lousy one. She'd be a guy with pathetically girly tastes, watching his body get hairy and develop a gruff voice. The emotional reaction to these undesired changes would be suicide.

To put it bluntly: imagine if you grew tits, how would you feel? Not those flabby moobs you have, I mean real knockers. And imagine it happened to you as a loner teenaged boy.

The result is generally suicide. But society prefers suicide - we don't have to watch suicides walk down the street, reminded that some people are, well, freaks. We don't have to pay for their hormones. We just bury them, comfort their grieving moms, and forget they existed.

Be pragmatic. Instead of what I described above, he gets to become a hot chick. Not just a hot chick, an awesome one. She's sexy, famous, and a pop-star. Obviously, that's not everybody, but it sure as hell worked out well for her.

Just because her chromosomes say different, and her vagina was sculpted by a surgeon, you're going to say it's farking wrong? Who gives a shiat.

Just look at her and tell me the results aren't wonderful.

WhyteRaven74: jigger: If you are XY, then you are a male

Even if the single gene on the Y chromosome that triggers male development is defective and thus that development never occurs resulting in a female body?

No, then you are a genetic fark up and you are neither male nor female.

Pxtl,

No, I'm not saying it's wrong. Hey, it's their body, they can mutilate it all they want.

jigger: XX = female

XY = male

If you are XY, then you are a male. If you are XY and take artificial hormones and have your penis surgically transformed into a "vagina," then you are still a male. But, now you have a mutilated penis.

Except that's not always true. See Swyer Syndrome and Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, which can cause XY females; there are others as well.

jigger: No, then you are a genetic fark up and you are neither male nor female.

And the entire medical community would like to inform you that you are wrong.

WhyteRaven74: jigger: No, then you are a genetic fark up and you are neither male nor female.

And the entire medical community would like to inform you that you are wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swyer_syndrome

Swyer syndrome, or XY gonadal dysgenesis, is a type of hypogonadism in which no functional gonads are present to induce puberty in an externally female [looking] person whose karyotype is then found to be XY. The gonads are found to be nonfunctional streaks. Estrogen and progesterone therapy is usually then commenced. The gonads are normally removed surgically because they do not function and may develop cancer.

jigger: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swyer_syndrome

Functional gonads are not the issue. Any doctors seeing someone with Swyer syndrome would consider the person female.

If you are XY, then you are a male. If you are XY and take artificial hormones and have your penis surgically transformed into a "vagina," then you are still a male. But, now you have a mutilated penis.

Yes, because genetics is everything about you. Please grab a biology book or something. Your stupid, it burns.

No, then you are a genetic fark up and you are neither male nor female.

I'm willing to wager that more than half of the women you fap to have an XY genotype, bright guy. XY Females generally express traits which are advantages in the modeling industry; generally speaking, tall and thin with nice legs and pert boobies. A disproportionate amount of women involved in producing those sexy photos guys love have an XY genotype. So enjoy-- by your own definition, you're bi.

jigger:

Someone with Swyer Syndrome and AIS should then "mutilate" their body by adding a penis?

jigger: No, then you are a genetic fark up and you are neither male nor female.

Refer to the diagram I've posted above on genetic sex determination -- you are vastly oversimplifying everything. Furthermore, there's no such thing as a genetic fark up, it's an artificial distinction that you've made which doesn't actually exist.

And seriously, unless you're karyotyping everyone you meet, I think you're full of crap. You're just pulling at straws because you're uncomfortable with the idea of someone who was born into a male body becoming a valid, even attractive female. Look, you don't judge whether someone is female by looking at their karyotype; if you're a normal person, you make this judgment based on appearance and anatomy (which externally will look 100% female in this case). The genetic argument is a terrible one to rationalize your discomfort unless you have a compulsion to karyotype everyone you encounter, try something else next time.

/I'm an actual geneticist. Get the f*ck off my lawn.

jigger: No, I'm not saying it's wrong. Hey, it's their body, they can mutilate it all they want.

How very enlightened of you. Just out of curiosity, are you also the enlightened type who also believes in legalising gay marriage, or do you beleive that freaks should not be allowed to be married at all since that may foul the gene pool?

WhyteRaven74: jigger: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swyer_syndrome

Functional gonads are not the issue. Any doctors seeing someone with Swyer syndrome would consider the person female.

Is Ru Paul a female because he looks like one?

Yes or no.

I take back the thing about not being male or female.

The Swyers Syndrome people are males with broken Y chromosomes.

XX = female
XY = male

If you want to say that someone is male or female just because of the way they look, then Ru Paul is a female.

zoips: jigger:

Someone with Swyer Syndrome and AIS should then "mutilate" their body by adding a penis?

Of course not. If they want to live without cancer, then they should probably mutilate their gonadal streaks.

jigger: Is Ru Paul a female because he looks like one?

Get Ru Paul naked and he's not going to look female. Get someone with Swyer syndrome naked, and they'll look female.

WhyteRaven74: jigger: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swyer_syndrome

Functional gonads are not the issue. Any doctors seeing someone with Swyer syndrome would consider the person female.

Uhh, it has been awhile since biology but I thought we all start out female and if your DNA says your supposed to be Male, your ovaries end up dropping and becoming testicles. The clitoris lengthens into what becomes the head of the penis.

wild9: Uhh, it has been awhile since biology but I thought we all start out female and if your DNA says your supposed to be Male, your ovaries end up dropping and becoming testicles. The clitoris lengthens into what becomes the head of the penis.

That's the basic gist of things. As with everything though, there are more nuanced and complex mechanics behind the simple explanation.

WhyteRaven74: jigger: Is Ru Paul a female because he looks like one?

Get Ru Paul naked and he's not going to look female. Get someone with Swyer syndrome naked, and they'll look female.

Let's go even further.

Take a tissue sample and check to see if they have XX or XY chromosomes.

wild9: it has been awhile since biology but I thought we all start out female and if your DNA says your supposed to be Male, your ovaries end up dropping and becoming testicles

If the required genetic trigger for male development isn't present, or other issues arise, then that development never occurs.

Barry McCackiner: jigger: XX = female

XY = male

If you are XY, then you are a male. If you are XY and take artificial hormones and have your penis surgically transformed into a "vagina," then you are still a male. But, now you have a mutilated penis.

So what is your point? Wow, so you have specific chromosomes, big deal. No one cares about chromosomes, people care about appearance and genitals.

I care about both, actually. But I'm old-fashioned that way.

Penis

Is she happy? Than that's all that matters. To hell with what biology or some outdated book says.

jigger: Pxtl,

No, I'm not saying it's wrong. Hey, it's their body, they can mutilate it all they want.

jigger: No, then you are a genetic fark up and you are neither male nor female.

Actually, you are.

jigger: Take a tissue sample and check to see if they have XX or XY chromosomes.

Oddly enough, even doing a cursory check of the literature, there are references to XY females and XX males aka de la Chapelle syndrome. Funny that doctors keep using the terms female and male based upon external appearance and not genetics.

WhyteRaven74: Oddly enough, even doing a cursory check of the literature, there are references to XY females and XX males aka de la Chapelle syndrome.

Huh?

Ed Grubermann: www.aolcdn.com

*golf clap*

/also would've accepted the work of photographer David LaChapelle

I think some people need to watch this:

Link (new window)

Used this for my Gender Identity Disorder speech for my Psychology class. It really gives you an idea on how one who has it feels.

Froman: get past the fact that you think transgenderism is weird

Much in the same way multiple personalities and schizophrenia are weird. It's not an oddity, it's a mental disease.

morgantx: Savoir-Faire: You know, if I could change, I would. It seems to me that the ladies really have it, at least while they're young. They're just so crushingly beautiful, I can't comprehend it. I'd have to be attractive though.

More that that, really, is I have convinced myself that women can do what they want and men cannot. I'm so constrained by the conventions of masculinity that I can't have fun or live in the moment. So much seems unattainable. I just don't understand how they manage to have so much fun.

It's probably all in my head.

It's all in your head. I'm a girl who greatly prefers the company and friendship of men. Women are petty and cruel. You can't just dress however you want to around women or else you'll be the butt of all their jokes and you'll be outcast and ostracized permanently. You can't do anything different or step outside the lines. You can't laugh too loud or sit comfortably or play rough or have any fun.

And in my waning years, when the lines start to show on my face and my breasts begin to succumb to gravity (as they inevitably will), I'll be that hideous old woman down the street that nobody wants to even visit, whereas my husband can get fat, wrinkled, and crotchety, and everyone will still think he's pretty cool. Aging is harder on women than it will ever be for men.
=============

Yeah, but while young life is much easier for women. Free drinks, and tons of attention.

Enjoy it while it lasts!

Cody

ZeroCorpse: f it acts like a cute girl, and looks like a cute girl, and makes love like a cute girl, then it must be a cute girl your honor.

bumkusfiveal: you cant cure the ghey its natural nature doesnt make mistakes, OOOHHHHHHHH you want to whack off the penis yea we can do that nature made a mistake.

me thinks the older sisters tortured poor little BOY about his penis. or HE never got over his vagina envy

i am going home to the 50's. fark all you enlightened ones.

This.

/that is all.

jigger: No, then you are a genetic fark up and you are neither male nor female.

This.
You think a lower back tattoo is going to look bad when you get old, just wait.

Cthulhu Theory: //if it were an abomination unto god, why would he allow his creation to be so malleable?

If it was wrong to murder people, why is it so easy to do?
Makes as much sense.

Hoopido: This.

You realize that it's impossible to be born neither male or female right? Even being born intersexed doesn't qualify.

So you have a boy that says "mom, I think I'm really a girl". Mom says "okay, let's cut off your junk and put you on all sorts of crazy drugs"

Yeah, sounds like responsible parenting to me.

Perhaps this boy is just gay and likes other boys and as such, thinks he's a girl.

It's a mad mad world...

Hoopido: Makes as much sense.

That was arguably one of the worst attempts at equivalence I have ever seen in my life. No, it was the worst.

Codyl: So you have a boy that says "mom, I think I'm really a girl". Mom says "okay, let's cut off your junk and put you on all sorts of crazy drugs"

Just too bad for you that's not how it works.

Pxtl: The emotional reaction to these undesired changes would be suicide.

So the problem is self correcting even. Solved.

Codyl: So you have a boy that says "mom, I think I'm really a girl". Mom says "okay, let's cut off your junk and put you on all sorts of crazy drugs"

Yeah, sounds like responsible parenting to me.

Perhaps this boy is just gay and likes other boys and as such, thinks he's a girl.

It's a mad mad world...

Gender has nothing to do with who is sexual attractive to. There are some transgendered who go male to female that are attracted to sex. Either way they know and at a young age, it doesn't matter how they got Gender Identity Disorder. It is a matter what is best for that person who has it.

So now there's a manufactured vagina on a 16 year old boy. If one of its male teachers tapped it, would it be like using a blowup doll or would he have to have a seat over there?

Whyte: Why is that too bad for me? I know fark is a PC zone but this should be over the top even for the progressive live-and-let-live if-it-feels-good-do-it fark crowd

Hoopido: So the problem is self correcting even. Solved.

Utter lack of empathy is usually not a trait to display when questioning others' mental status.

Codyl: Whyte: Why is that too bad for me?

Cause how it actually works turns your argument into nothing more than knuckle dragging.

"Knuckle dragging" ? Really? That's all you have?

This poor boy is screwed up. I feel sorry for him. The fact is mom isn't being a mom and the meida calls him a her isn't helping.

Codyl: "Knuckle dragging" ? Really? That's all you have?

This poor boy is screwed up. I feel sorry for him. The fact is mom isn't being a mom and the meida calls him a her isn't helping.

I think the mom is, she took her child to a bunch of people in the psychology world, and they diagnosed Kim, and said was best for the child. The surgery and the hormone therapy wouldn't of went through if it wasn't for doctors approving it.

The bigotry and ignorance in this thread is baffling.

Yes this is fark, but seriously people really need to get a clue.

If you don't understand the difference between being transgender/transsexual and being gay, then don't bother posting.

If you don't understand how someone is happier living their life as what gender they really feel, versus whatever gender he or she was born as, then don't bother posting.

I've seen other news articles about her (and on fark as well), and I say kudos to her. I'm so happy for her!

Codyl: I feel sorry for him.

She's now happy and content with her life. Why would you feel sorry for someone in that state?

I like the people here who believe that drinking a 6 pack of Natty Ice before surfing Fark makes them more of an expert on gender, psychology, medicine and sexuality than people who actually... I dunno, study this shiat for a living?

Codyl: Yeah, but while young life is much easier for women. Free drinks, and tons of attention.

Harder professionally, though. I've lost track of the number of times that colleagues have been talking to my tits in serious meetings. The worst is when you're trying to discuss a business proposal and your superior interrupts you to make comments about your appearance. Um, excuse me? Or the guy below me who had problems taking direction from me because I'm a woman, and then tried to hit on me right after dismissing my requests. That was classic. Hope he likes being unemployed.

I dress conservatively and I comport myself professionally, yet I still have to fight tooth and nail to be taken seriously. I hate it. I've had to become a real dragon around the douchebags who can't handle working with women. Not fun.

And if we go back further than that, I can tell you about the sexist teacher who docked my grade because I turned down his flirtatious advances by telling him that I was engaged. Awesome.

And what's the trade off? Some skeezy guys at the bar will buy me a drink? Yeah, great.


/note: I don't mean to imply that all guys I work with are creeps, because most of them are awesome and treat me like any other employee. But those ones that don't respect me really make things difficult...and I don't want to cry "sexual harassment" because that's pretty much a blacklist for life. I've learned to put them in their place by calling them out instead. :) Hooray.

kunibob: Codyl: Yeah, but while young life is much easier for women. Free drinks, and tons of attention.

Harder professionally, though. I've lost track of the number of times that colleagues have been talking to my tits in serious meetings. The worst is when you're trying to discuss a business proposal and your superior interrupts you to make comments about your appearance. Um, excuse me? Or the guy below me who had problems taking direction from me because I'm a woman, and then tried to hit on me right after dismissing my requests. That was classic. Hope he likes being unemployed.

I dress conservatively and I comport myself professionally, yet I still have to fight tooth and nail to be taken seriously. I hate it. I've had to become a real dragon around the douchebags who can't handle working with women. Not fun.

And if we go back further than that, I can tell you about the sexist teacher who docked my grade because I turned down his flirtatious advances by telling him that I was engaged. Awesome.

And what's the trade off? Some skeezy guys at the bar will buy me a drink? Yeah, great.


/note: I don't mean to imply that all guys I work with are creeps, because most of them are awesome and treat me like any other employee. But those ones that don't respect me really make things difficult...and I don't want to cry "sexual harassment" because that's pretty much a blacklist for life. I've learned to put them in their place by calling them out instead. :) Hooray.

Oh, and as a PS, I'm only about a 6 or 7 out of 10, so I can't imagine what the hot chicks have to put up with. Seems like most young women have to put up with a lot of shiat in their professional careers.

Dr. Mojo PhD: And if all the Ford parts are in a Chevy, literally makes it a Ford in a Chevy's body. So that's a failed analogy accidentally proving the opposite point you were trying to make.

Wrong. The title, insurance and registrations will all still read "Chevrolet."

kunibob: I've lost track of the number of times that colleagues have been talking to my tits in serious meetings.

*checks profile* "video game industiry", ahhh that explains a lot of it sadly.

industiry

industry, I can actually spell

Good on her, I say.

As several have already said, it was best that she got the hormone therapy before puberty. The fact of that course of action being taken probably saved her and her family a lot of physical, emotional, and financial hardship.

I'm about as straight as they come. I drink Miller High Life everyday after work. I think all dudes look the same and I can't even tell which ones chicks would think are good looking. That being said, there are some ignorant motherfarkers in this thread. Holy crap. There is a large continuum of sexuality. All the way from super straight to super gay to wanting to be the other sex. Who cares? All that anyone should care about is that no one chooses their sexual preference/identity. Just like I didn't choose to be straight, this person did not choose to be a transsexual.

Barry McCackiner: I'm about as straight as they come. I drink Miller High Life everyday after work. I think all dudes look the same and I can't even tell which ones chicks would think are good looking. That being said, there are some ignorant motherfarkers in this thread. Holy crap. There is a large continuum of sexuality. All the way from super straight to super gay to wanting to be the other sex. Who cares? All that anyone should care about is that no one chooses their sexual preference/identity. Just like I didn't choose to be straight, this person did not choose to be a transsexual.

Uh, I think I misspoke. I think I should have said she did not choose to be a transgender and so she did the things she did to be a transsexual to rectify that? Oh boy i'm confusing myself now. I just don't like to butcher the terms.

Barry McCackiner: I just don't like to butcher the terms.

No big deal, for the most part the terms are interchangable. Most people won't get in a huff if you call them one instead of the other.

WhyteRaven74: kunibob: I've lost track of the number of times that colleagues have been talking to my tits in serious meetings.

*checks profile* "video game industiry", ahhh that explains a lot of it sadly.

It does explain a lot of it, for sure, but I've also spoken to a pharmacist and a high-ranking government official who have to put up with the same thing on a regular basis. Makes me think it's in a lot of different careers. :(

Though, now that I think about it, I'm sure men have to deal with the opposite in female-dominated careers. I have a male friend who's a nurse, and he gets hassled a lot.

Barry McCackiner: There is a large continuum of sexuality. All the way from super straight to super gay to wanting to be the other sex. Who cares? All that anyone should care about is that no one chooses their sexual preference/identity. Just like I didn't choose to be straight, this person did not choose to be a transsexual.

To add to that statement, why would anyone willingly choose a lifestyle that might alienate friends and family, close doors of opportunity, and cause them to be shunned and discriminated against by a large portion of society, unless it was a biological imperative that they do so?

I see sexuality and orientation as no different from skin or eye color. You accept the cards you've been dealt, and go from there.

demonfaerie: Codyl: "Knuckle dragging" ? Really? That's all you have?

This poor boy is screwed up. I feel sorry for him. The fact is mom isn't being a mom and the meida calls him a her isn't helping.

I think the mom is, she took her child to a bunch of people in the psychology world, and they diagnosed Kim, and said was best for the child. The surgery and the hormone therapy wouldn't of went through if it wasn't for doctors approving it.

You know, my mom said the same thing about me. She said I was just fine until I visited a couple of doctors and "had this done to me." Despite the fact that I went to the doctors because I felt like I may be transsexual. So no, doctors did not do anything to her, she went to them with her parents because of what she already felt, for years before she went to a therapist. So don't be stupid. Doctors do not cause transsexuality, any more than an oncologist causes cancer or a heart doctor causes a cardiac event.

kunibob: I've also spoken to a pharmacist

Interesting the pharmacist bit, though it may have to do with where they work. I've talked with female pharmacists before and they never mentioned anything bad going on.

jenniferwillow: Doctors do not cause transsexuality, any more than an oncologist causes cancer or a heart doctor causes a cardiac event.

that's not what demonfaerie was claiming.

Darth Invictus: Barry McCackiner: There is a large continuum of sexuality. All the way from super straight to super gay to wanting to be the other sex. Who cares? All that anyone should care about is that no one chooses their sexual preference/identity. Just like I didn't choose to be straight, this person did not choose to be a transsexual.

To add to that statement, why would anyone willingly choose a lifestyle that might alienate friends and family, close doors of opportunity, and cause them to be shunned and discriminated against by a large portion of society, unless it was a biological imperative that they do so?

I see sexuality and orientation as no different from skin or eye color. You accept the cards you've been dealt, and go from there.

I can't believe it, people who actually have a clue...

+1 to both of you.

We didn't choose to be who we are..we just...are that way, and so is she.

/Transgendered

demonfaerie

Sex is in your pants,...


I'm not wearing any pants

/shouldn't have
//couldn't help it
///can't find pants

Creoena: I can't believe it, people who actually have a clue...

+1 to both of you.

We didn't choose to be who we are..we just...are that way, and so is she.

/Transgendered

Yeah my first +1, haha.

/I tend to lurk a lot

WhyteRaven74: demonfaerie was claiming.

Yeah, I was actually referring to codyl. The wine, I has been drinking it...

jenniferwillow: The wine, I has been drinking it...

hehe no worries :)

The underlying question is...

What will s/he look like in 10 years?

How about 20?

30, even?

Boggles the mind, doesn't it?

Of course, there's this famous transsexual:


(careful...it's hot)

Caroline "Tula" Cossey (pops)

Now, try to tell me you wouldn't hit it...

Would I hit it?

HELL NO.

Yeah, above the waist looks good. But have you ever seen the vagina of a post-op tranny? It will make you barf. Don't believe me? There's a video of one on efukt.com. Search for "the vagina of a transexual."(NSFW by a long shot, farko)

geniusiknowit: Would I hit it?

HELL NO.

Yeah, above the waist looks good. But have you ever seen the vagina of a post-op tranny? It will make you barf. Don't believe me? There's a video of one on efukt.com. Search for "the vagina of a transexual."(NSFW by a long shot, farko)

I might look it up later, but do you know how old it is? Sexual reassignment surgeries have come a long way. Today they look exactly like if one was born with one, plus it depends on if you go to a good surgeon or not.

Verdelak: Well, I was on the fence as to the age at which this was done, but much of his argument helped to sway me fully to the side that this was the correct course of action. Your time was not totally wasted, if that makes anyone feel better.

It does, actually. And thanks to WhyteRaven, ColdFusion, kunibob, et al. -- I guess I made some impression, so it's nice to be appreciated for kicking people in the proverbial head.

HAMMERTOE: Wrong. The title, insurance and registrations will all still read "Chevrolet."

And that's totally irrelevant to the fact that it's still a Ford in a Chevy's body. It will also have the paint colour. Doesn't effect the Ford engine one bit.

katastrophe: /I'm an actual geneticist. Get the f*ck off my lawn.

Ooh, uh, I'm writing something and there's a geneticist character in it, can I use you for some minor research?

demonfaerie: geniusiknowit: Would I hit it?

HELL NO.

Yeah, above the waist looks good. But have you ever seen the vagina of a post-op tranny? It will make you barf. Don't believe me? There's a video of one on efukt.com. Search for "the vagina of a transexual."(NSFW by a long shot, farko)

I might look it up later, but do you know how old it is? Sexual reassignment surgeries have come a long way. Today they look exactly like if one was born with one, plus it depends on if you go to a good surgeon or not.

IDK dude.... I've had a lot of snatch in my face in my time. I bet I could tell the difference in a pepsi challenge.

Good on the kid and HER parents for helping her be what she was meant to be.Since some of you have a really good grasp of the subject matter, I have a question that is a bit tangential : How do transgenders handle telling/not telling potential partners about their gender change?

geniusiknowit: demonfaerie: geniusiknowit: Would I hit it?

HELL NO.

Yeah, above the waist looks good. But have you ever seen the vagina of a post-op tranny? It will make you barf. Don't believe me? There's a video of one on efukt.com. Search for "the vagina of a transexual."(NSFW by a long shot, farko)

I might look it up later, but do you know how old it is? Sexual reassignment surgeries have come a long way. Today they look exactly like if one was born with one, plus it depends on if you go to a good surgeon or not.

IDK dude.... I've had a lot of snatch in my face in my time. I bet I could tell the difference in a pepsi challenge.

Does it matter if one was natural made or man made? There are some women who prefer a dildo over a man and his penis any day, and no one thinks that is gross.

Phletchengreuber: Since some of you have a really good grasp of the subject matter, I have a question that is a bit tangential : How do transgenders handle telling/not telling potential partners about their gender change?

Well, funny story about that....

Last year I was in a really bad car accident, and had my right arm broken. Needless to say, I was on some really good pain meds, not to mention some beer and etc. Well I was really bored and lonely a few nights after the wreck, so I made an online profile on OKCupid. It's a really great site if you're looking to do the whole online dating thing BTW. So I end up one evening, in a very foggy haze, writing to a bunch of women on the site. And thus I meet my current girlfriend. The next day she writes back, I check my email, and I'm thinking "who the hell is this Sarah person? She sounds cool, but um..." Anyway, she and I start talking, I clue her in on to my less than sober demeanor the night before, we reintroduce ourselves, and start talking online.

So about a week goes by, we've been chitchatting, and I tell, while online, hey, "I've got something I'd like for you to see. Go here: http://www.fark.com/cgi/users.pl?login=jenniferwillow (new window) " So um, Fark is kind of how I came out to my girlfriend.

/She's sitting next to me and her statement at reading this was "Yes, and it went suprisingly well!"

would i hit it? i'm still debating. would i fap to it? hell yes, i would!

Creoena: I can't believe it, people who actually have a clue...

+1 to both of you.

We didn't choose to be who we are..we just...are that way, and so is she.

/Transgendered

Thank you! I find it difficult to understand all the hatred for LGBT folks.

I mean, for more people than many want to admit, LGBT folks are their brothers, sisters, cousins, and kids, for fark's sake. Almost every extended family, without exception (mine included), has at least one LGBT member.

/gay cousins, lesbian sister
//pride marches are tons of fun, even if you're straight

clusterfrak: Would hit it with or without the peener.

Yeah pretty much same here.

Dr. Mojo PhD: katastrophe: /I'm an actual geneticist. Get the f*ck off my lawn.

Ooh, uh, I'm writing something and there's a geneticist character in it, can I use you for some minor research?

Sure! Feel free to ask anything, I'd be happy to share the geekery with you.

demonfaerie: geniusiknowit: demonfaerie: geniusiknowit: Would I hit it?

HELL NO.

Yeah, above the waist looks good. But have you ever seen the vagina of a post-op tranny? It will make you barf. Don't believe me? There's a video of one on efukt.com. Search for "the vagina of a transexual."(NSFW by a long shot, farko)

I might look it up later, but do you know how old it is? Sexual reassignment surgeries have come a long way. Today they look exactly like if one was born with one, plus it depends on if you go to a good surgeon or not.

IDK dude.... I've had a lot of snatch in my face in my time. I bet I could tell the difference in a pepsi challenge.

Does it matter if one was natural made or man made? There are some women who prefer a dildo over a man and his penis any day, and no one thinks that is gross.

That's only because those women have never had my penis.

geniusiknowit: demonfaerie: geniusiknowit: demonfaerie: geniusiknowit: Would I hit it?

HELL NO.

Yeah, above the waist looks good. But have you ever seen the vagina of a post-op tranny? It will make you barf. Don't believe me? There's a video of one on efukt.com. Search for "the vagina of a transexual."(NSFW by a long shot, farko)

I might look it up later, but do you know how old it is? Sexual reassignment surgeries have come a long way. Today they look exactly like if one was born with one, plus it depends on if you go to a good surgeon or not.

IDK dude.... I've had a lot of snatch in my face in my time. I bet I could tell the difference in a pepsi challenge.

Does it matter if one was natural made or man made? There are some women who prefer a dildo over a man and his penis any day, and no one thinks that is gross.

That's only because those women have never had my penis.

So your saying that after if they had your penis, they would just stick to dildos forever?

Mole Man: Approve

/obscure to some?
//link hotter than the summer of 76
Begs to differ

/hotter than the Wild Thing

katastrophe: Dr. Mojo PhD, you are my hero...

You've exceeded the permissible length for slashy comments. I've filed complaints with OSHA, the union, and the HOA.

katastrophe: Sure! Feel free to ask anything, I'd be happy to share the geekery with you.

Thanks! I'll rifle off a little summary to your ultrafark, assuming its still hooked up to anything. Let me know what you think. I appreciate it -- I've had writer's block for a month.

Dr. Mojo PhD: UnspokenVoice: Not many sane people would agree with you thus you've "reached no one." Imagine that... You're basically saying that it is natural to want to call the Sun "The bright square shining black thing in the ground." No, no it isn't right, it isn't okay, it's people like you appeasing the mentally ill and encouraging more of it.

Uh huh. I like the strawman, too. It's also sort of ironic because it actually applies more to you -- like if a physicist said that the sun was a nuclear furnace converting hydrogen to helium, and you were all like "nuh-uh any common man can plainly see it's a great ball of fire and you just don't know what you're talking about." The whole anti-scientific rhetoric swaddled in some laughably pro-science strawman is ... I don't know, it's like that warm fuzzy feeling I get when I know a retarded child is going home without feces in his diapers.

Now, meat and potatoes time: Where did you get your MD in psychiatry? Where did you take your surgeon's specialization? What institute of higher learning conferred a PhD on psychology or physiology or biology on you?

Again, I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say "none". If I had to make a best guess, I'm going to say you've got a Bachelor's degree at most, and probably not in a scientific or critical field.

Which really leads me to the question, then, is how are you in any way fit to make diagnoses about the mentally ill and who does or does not fit into it?

Is there anything about your body you would change, if you could -- any sort of body dysmorphism at all? Do you have anything in your genetic heritage you do not identify with, say a racial heritage or something?

Don't bother answering, I know the answer is "yes". And hey, unlike your tortured invalid analogy strawman about the sun, there is actually a tautology here; since this is what transsexuals suffer from, dysmorphism and identity issues, hey, that makes you mentally ill by your own admission.

I see you don't actually address the question and you project a great deal... There are many things I could do to change my physical self and I can do so with relative ease. I don't even have corrective surgery on my eyes, start there and keep going.

You don't get it, you won't. It's okay - the irony is that you think you're either smarter or better when all you do is parrot what you are told to say. Don't project, I'm not even beautiful or anything, I'm pretty ugly, and I have no desire to change anything about me at all and that DOES include my faults. I have my share of physical faults, none of them are more than I am concerned about. I could get anything I wanted corrected, they have a surgery for anything I could desire pretty much.

Dr. Mojo PhD: Broom: I don't know you, but you are my new farking hero.

You go, girl or guy! Best doctor evah!

/ Happy hetero with peener, who thinks others' sex lives are their own business... unless they're sharing, in which case juicy tidbits are usually interesting!

Guy, hetero, (almost) married, no kids, dog, smoker, aged 25-39, white as the Irish (which makes sense, given), Canadian, etc.

All very vanilla. Learned to be threatened by threatening actions, no THE SCURRY DIFFERENT PEOPLE. Person tries to run me over with car, threatening, person wants to remove their penis and live as a woman, very non-threatening. Never understood any other line of reasoning.

I think that there's just a lot of "I NO I HOPE I HAVEN'T SLEPT WITH A SECRET XY-WOMAN" penis shrinking Zionist robot comb style terror here.

THREAD AWARD: Most baffling post.

The President of Hittin' That Ass: Dr. Mojo PhD: Broom: I don't know you, but you are my new farking hero.

You go, girl or guy! Best doctor evah!

/ Happy hetero with peener, who thinks others' sex lives are their own business... unless they're sharing, in which case juicy tidbits are usually interesting!

Guy, hetero, (almost) married, no kids, dog, smoker, aged 25-39, white as the Irish (which makes sense, given), Canadian, etc.

All very vanilla. Learned to be threatened by threatening actions, no THE SCURRY DIFFERENT PEOPLE. Person tries to run me over with car, threatening, person wants to remove their penis and live as a woman, very non-threatening. Never understood any other line of reasoning.

I think that there's just a lot of "I NO I HOPE I HAVEN'T SLEPT WITH A SECRET XY-WOMAN" penis shrinking Zionist robot comb style terror here.

THREAD AWARD: Most baffling post.

This.

Meh.

Happy, um, installed vagina.

Christ, I dunno. I mean... there's only so much mileage in fake anything.

I'm gonna make a sammich.

You're right bunner, but she has the benefit of having gotten the alterations/drug therapies early, before normal maturation could have a strong effect on her body.

Had she waited til puberty was through with her, she would have been hard pressed to avoid the manly features, but I'm guessing she'll be as hot when she's 30 and 40 as any 16 year old who looks as cute as her would.

I imagine that was one of the factors the doctors weighed in performing it now rather than waiting.

Only looks female from a distance, zoom to the face, and bam, easy to recognize as a dude

Without the airbrushing..

Freak!

Hoopido: Pxtl: The emotional reaction to these undesired changes would be suicide.

So the problem is self correcting even. Solved.

Hey, thanks for confirming my opinion of you. It's great when the people who you think are ***holes go out of their way to prove it :)

HAMMERTOE: Dr. Mojo PhD: And if all the Ford parts are in a Chevy, literally makes it a Ford in a Chevy's body. So that's a failed analogy accidentally proving the opposite point you were trying to make.

Wrong. The title, insurance and registrations will all still read "Chevrolet."

Paperwork? You've compared "god's plan" or whatever it is you believe in to paperwork? Hilarious!

So by your logic, her Gender Identity Disorder and SRS meant nothing...she's still a boy. But if we get you a revised birth certificate, insurance and new ID that say "FEMALE", that would make YOU a girl!

I think you better rethink that argument. I don't think you said what you think you said :)

//Incidentally, that paperwork you seem so concerned with DOES get changed when you get SRS. Not that that makes a bit of difference to the actual topic we were discussing.

Nothing like yet another trans-story and the ensuing mean-spirited ignorant posters. All haters, please go back in your troll-holes, and renew your GROOBY subscriptions; you know what I'm talking about.

I concur with the supporters here about the choices made and permitted. If it's so ineffable and difficult to understand, how about a little compassion and forget the smaller of your two heads for a minute, men?

And if some things in the world just make you a little uncomfortable, just carry on with your own damn business, and say there but for the grace of god/allah/buddha go I.

mister aj: You elitist liberals make me sick. You think that just because you're "educated" on so-called "science" that you know what's RIGHT. The Bible trumps medical science EVERY TIME. Burn in hell, homofag.

Are you fakring kidding me? I hope you fakring die in a fire.