nostudme: Farking pathetic. America will be worse off than Chicago after this empty head leaves.

Leaves? Hell, the guy hasn't even become President yet.

After all, according to the republicans, a person elected POTUS is not responsible for anything until September 12th.

Obama still has a couple of months to go.

PC LOAD LETTER: liberty

Just put any law to the test, does this law give more power to the government and take away from the liberty of the people? If it does, we have a problem.

Laws which are malium per se, e.g. murder and robbery, preserve the liberty of the people, to be free from taking of their life or property by others without justification. We can't disagree on that point.

Laws which take money from the people and give it to others, seem to violate this test. It isn't my responsiblity to support you. It isn't my responsibility to financially support Barry Obama's cronies at Acorn. It isn't my responsiblity to support a failing auto industry and its unions. If you tax away my income and give it to someone else, you violate this test. If you use the law to further your religious agenda at the expense of my freedom, you also violate the test. Keep the government out of the economy and religion out of government and we don't violate the test.

The purpose of the Constitution is to restrict the government from doing these things. Anyone who wants the government to act outside these limitations does so to the derogation of our entire form of democracy.

Tell me how that is foolish.

Chelsea Clinton Is Carrot Top's Lost Twin: nostudme: Farking pathetic. America will be worse off than Chicago after this empty head leaves.

Leaves? Hell, the guy hasn't even become President yet.

After all, according to the republicans, a person elected POTUS is not responsible for anything until September 12th.

Obama still has a couple of months to go.

I recommend not pointing out hypocrisy. It doesn't breach their wharrgarbl barrier.

Cagey B: Anyone familiar with the government contracting process and the distribution of funds from federal to state governments should be amazed at how fast it's gone so far.

Many states have had to change their laws in the time period from the signing of ARRA in February in order to legally accept and spend the money.

The fact that any money at all has been spent in the six months since the stimulus was signed is freaking amazing. And most of it will be put out into the economy in the coming months.

So when you see someone go "OMG why hasn't it WORKED YET!?!", what they're really saying is "hello, I'm afraid I haven't any understanding of either governance or economics. Please put me in a headlock and give me an enlightening noogie."

At least lock these fools away in reeducation camps. Some hard labor and proper education will shape them up nicely. They can learn or they can die.

lefande: Just put any law to the test, does this law give more power to the government and take away from the liberty of the people? If it does, we have a problem.

Laws are usually restrictive in nature. You don't have a problem with "big government" (whatever that's supposed to mean), you have a problem with government in general.

To wit:

YodaTuna: Chelsea Clinton Is Carrot Top's Lost Twin: nostudme: Farking pathetic. America will be worse off than Chicago after this empty head leaves.

Leaves? Hell, the guy hasn't even become President yet.

After all, according to the republicans, a person elected POTUS is not responsible for anything until September 12th.

Obama still has a couple of months to go.

I recommend not pointing out hypocrisy. It doesn't breach their wharrgarbl barrier.

Good point. It is easier just to sit back and watch the butt hurt. And just as enjoyable as well.

Thunderpipes: Idiot.

What an astounding retort.

nostudme: America will be worse off than Chicago after this empty head leaves.

Yes because one of the best law schools in the country hires empty heads to be professors.

lefande: our entire form of democracy.

I'm perfectly sure you would've been just fine with GM totally imploding.

Mr. Right: I don't need to prove an ideology. Free market capitalism, limited government interference, a government that works for the governed instead of the other way around, individual liberty and security - those were proven long before I was around and they will be valid ideas long after I'm gone - whether they still exist in this country or not. And I'm all for those. I am against a government that arrogates to itself the power to take those things away. And our government has been working on that for decades now. Both parties. There have been a few shining moments but it has generally been a long, down-hill slide.

I have absolutely no patience or tolerance for people who allow themselves to be enslaved by the government in search of some greater good. From seatbelt laws to smoking restrictions to EPA regulations to the onerous regulations on businesses, to the incredible amount of regulation regarding how one can transport a young child in a motor vehicle, the government has decided that it knows best and must take care of us. And we have let it. When I lose my patience is when people actually argue in favor of more government control under the guise of taking care of us.



/Approves

lefande:

Laws which take money from the people and give it to others, seem to violate this test. It isn't my responsiblity to support you. It isn't my responsibility to financially support Barry Obama's cronies at Acorn. It isn't my responsiblity to support a failing auto industry and its unions. If you tax away my income and give it to someone else, you violate this test.

Except by doing some of these things, we are actually creating a more stable society for you to prosper in. In the long term it is more beneficial to you and to society as a whole. If society is unable, you won't really have to worry about taxes a whole lot.

Your idea of freedom is so intertwined with how much money you have, I think it pollutes the idea of freedom. So my idea of freedom varies greatly from yours. You don't have a monopoly on liberty, just a different idea.

Thunderpipes: WhyteRaven74: thermodie: Quit taxing our industries so hard that they take their jobs over seas

Taxes are just the excuse offered up, it in reality has little if anything to ever do with it.

Idiot.

Not sure what you think is idiotic about his statement. I employ people in three regions; two in the US and one in India. Per-employee costs (aka "run rate") are the least in India. I can hire two people in India for what one in NYC costs me. Companies made a conscious decision long ago to shift jobs to where labor is cheapest. Haven't you noticed how many cars are built elsewhere? I own a Volkswagen that was built in Mexico for crying out loud! This is nothing new, sir... it's been happening for the last 20 years, but economic pressures mean it is happening in earnest now.

technofiend: Thunderpipes: WhyteRaven74: thermodie: Quit taxing our industries so hard that they take their jobs over seas

Taxes are just the excuse offered up, it in reality has little if anything to ever do with it.

Idiot.

Not sure what you think is idiotic about his statement. I employ people in three regions; two in the US and one in India. Per-employee costs (aka "run rate") are the least in India. I can hire two people in India for what one in NYC costs me. Companies made a conscious decision long ago to shift jobs to where labor is cheapest. Haven't you noticed how many cars are built elsewhere? I own a Volkswagen that was built in Mexico for crying out loud! This is nothing new, sir... it's been happening for the last 20 years, but economic pressures mean it is happening in earnest now.

If only we could have kept the cost/standard of living low enough here for our labor wages to be competitive with the developing world.

We really screwed the pooch on that one.

WhyteRaven74: lefande: our entire form of democracy.

I'm perfectly sure you would've been just fine with GM totally imploding.

Andrew Mellon would have:

"Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate.... That will purge the rottenness out of the system. High costs of living and high living will come down. People will work harder, live a more moral life. Values will be adjusted, and enterprising people will pick up the wrecks from less competent people." Andrew Mellon

Ends will always justify the means for Republicans.

PC LOAD LETTER: lefande: Just put any law to the test, does this law give more power to the government and take away from the liberty of the people? If it does, we have a problem.

Laws are usually restrictive in nature. You don't have a problem with "big government" (whatever that's supposed to mean), you have a problem with government in general.

To wit:

It would be nice if you read my entire post before commenting. Government and law have a purpose. I described an example. Apparently, these nuances are lost on you.


WhyteRaven74: I'm perfectly sure you would've been just fine with GM totally imploding.

We have done ourselves, and the U.S. auto industry, a great disservice by not allowing that to happen.

I adopt by reference the Andrew Mellon quote, supra.

YodaTuna: Except by doing some of these things, we are actually creating a more stable society for you to prosper in.

If government was really doing that, Barry Obama's mother wouldn't have been able to perpetrate the immigration fraud that put us in this predicament in the first place.

PC LOAD LETTER: WhyteRaven74: lefande: our entire form of democracy.

I'm perfectly sure you would've been just fine with GM totally imploding.

Andrew Mellon would have:

"Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate.... That will purge the rottenness out of the system. High costs of living and high living will come down. People will work harder, live a more moral life. Values will be adjusted, and enterprising people will pick up the wrecks from less competent people." Andrew Mellon

Ends will always justify the means for Republicans.

The definition of irony - liquidate them indeed! (new window)

Klingon Penis: Mr. Right:
Reagan cut taxes and let the economy go. Successful economy.

lulz:

One year after his massive tax cut, Reagan agreed to a tax increase to reduce the deficit that restored fully one-third of the previous year's reduction. (In a bizarre bit of self-deception, Reagan, who never came to terms with this episode of ideological apostasy, persuaded himself that the three-year, $100 billion tax hike--the largest since World War II--was actually "tax reform" that closed loopholes in his earlier cut and therefore didn't count as raising taxes.)

Faced with looming deficits, Reagan raised taxes again in 1983 with a gasoline tax and once more in 1984, this time by $50 billion over three years, mainly through closing tax loopholes for business. Despite the fact that such increases were anathema to conservatives--and probably cost Reagan's successor, George H.W. Bush, reelection--Reagan raised taxes a grand total of four times just between 1982-84.

Reagan continued these "modest rollbacks" in his second term. The historic Tax Reform Act of 1986, though it achieved the supply side goal of lowering individual income tax rates, was a startlingly progressive reform. The plan imposed the largest corporate tax increase in history--an act utterly unimaginable for any conservative to support today. Just two years after declaring, "there is no justification" for taxing corporate income, Reagan raised corporate taxes by $120 billion over five years and closed corporate tax loopholes worth about $300 billion over that same period.

He also tripled the deficit. Your hero.

WTF is your hero doing to the deficit?

dustman81 [TotalFark] Quote 2009-07-12 12:11:17 PM
Unemployment is a lagging economic indicator. Unemployment is a lagging economic indicator. Unemployment is a lagging economic indicator. Unemployment is a lagging economic indicator. Unemployment is a lagging economic indicator. Unemployment is a lagging economic indicator. Unemployment is a lagging economic indicator. Unemployment is a lagging economic indicator. Unemployment is a lagging economic indicator. Unemployment is a lagging economic indicator.

The jobs wouldn't magically appear as soon as Obama finished signing the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA). The money is starting to flow, but it does take time. Agencies are starting to get the money and are bidding projects and hiring workers.

Unfortunately, Americans want everything fixed right now and don't understand the concept of patience.

Like Democrats who expected the Afghanistan and Iraq wars to be over in a few weeks?

Tell that to all the towns that have 18% or higher unemployment.

No one is hiring workers, that money is just sustaining the workers they already have.

AIG is planning on giving millions in bonuses next week to it's executives. How is that creating jobs unless they hire more illegals to clean their pools.

GM cut 25% of it's workforce by closing 15 plants permanently. I fail to see how that amounts to hiring workers.

Mortgage loans and Student loans both at an all time low.

500,000 jobs lost every month and not slowing much.

Cap and Trade will make gas/electricity/fuel to skyrocket resulting in higher unemployment.

Every Green Job created results in double that in jobs lost.

A Spending Bill disguised as a stimulus bill with very little of it going towards job creation.

But hey, keep drinking the Obama Kool Aid.

lefande: YodaTuna: Except by doing some of these things, we are actually creating a more stable society for you to prosper in.

If government was really doing that, Barry Obama's mother wouldn't have been able to perpetrate the immigration fraud that put us in this predicament in the first place.

Hmm I see... well I guess I'm done here. If anyone wants to have a reasonable conversation on the idea of liberty and taxation, I'll be here.

lefande: YodaTuna: Except by doing some of these things, we are actually creating a more stable society for you to prosper in.

If government was really doing that, Barry Obama's mother wouldn't have been able to perpetrate the immigration fraud that put us in this predicament in the first place.

And that's why nobody takes you seriously.

Mongo cut wood:
AIG is planning on giving millions in bonuses next week to it's executives. How is that creating jobs unless they hire more illegals to clean their pools.

I'm sorry Mongo, but this is a right wing talking point. You should be thrilled that rich people are getting more money, it means they will create more jobs, right? I mean that's only if you agree with Ronald Reagan's economic policies. If not, then you may be on your way.

yelmrog: Mr. Right: yelmrog:
Here's a good one for ya:

Herbert Hoover. Let the economy do its thing. Disastrous economy.

/Hey, this is fun!

Wrong. Hoover had a chance to let the economy fix itself. He failed. See Smoot-Hawley. That is what is called managing the economy. It failed.

One similarity though. Through his third election, FDR was blaming Hoover for the economy. Just like Obama and his minions blame Bush for every thing now and will likely continue to through his 2nd term, if we are so misfortunate as to have to endure that.

Smoot Hawley didn't pass into law until 1930. By then, the stock market had been in shambles for 9 months and the Dust Bowl (has nothing to do with "managing" or "not managing" the economy, imagine that!) had begun putting the final nails in the coffin of the small family-owned American farm.

The run-up to the Stock Market crash was a direct result of everyone thinking "hey, lets just ride this pony as far as it'll go" with no thought given to regulating the ridiculous margin buying that was going on.

Smoot-Hawley prolonged the Depression, but the reasons behind everything being screwed up had more to do with "letting the economy go" than "managing" the economy.

What small family owned farms? The Dust Bowl (and mechanized tractors) killed the sharecopper model of farming.

technofiend: Not sure what you think is idiotic about his statement

There's a difference between moving jobs to where costs are lower and the talking point that it's all about taxes.

BTW labor costs aren't the only reason VW makes cars in Mexico for the US market. It's transportation costs. Lot cheaper to ship cars from Mexico than from Germany. All the same, not all US market VW's are made in Mexico, many are still made in Germany.

PC LOAD LETTER: Ends will always justify the means for Republicans.

Yep, doesn't matter who gets crushed, just as long as the "right" end is achieved.

lefande: We have done ourselves, and the U.S. auto industry, a great disservice by not allowing that to happen.

You really think putting a few million people out of work is a good idea?

lefande: It would be nice if you read my entire post before commenting. Government and law have a purpose. I described an example. Apparently, these nuances are lost on you.

Oh I read it. It's called cherry picking. You just want the laws that YOU don't like removed from the books.

Governments HAVE TO support the poor. Period. Not doing so in some form is suicide to people trying to stay in power. Perfect examples of governments that didn't support the poor, didn't care if they suffered enough to foment unrest, and when things got bad, scoffed at them: France 1790 and Russia 1917.

The Greeks and Romans developed a very different way to handling the poor: slavery. In Medieval times, it was the Feudal System. Times have evolved, thankfully.

Actual, real, honest to god Socialism and Communism were becoming quite popular until both Roosevelts decided to steal their thunder by actually addressing some of the more tangible things Socialists and Communists were agitating about. First TR with the Square Deal, then FDR with the New Deal. It worked like a charm.

yelmrog: Mr. Right: And now I have to go bury the woodchuck that just encroached on my deck. And I'll have to clean the deck. Single shot, .22 LR hollowpoint, just behind the right ear. Bastard then had the temerity to bleed all over my deck.

You see? He's a tough rugged individualist. Those damn woodchucks encroach on his proper-tie, they'd better start prayin'. In fact, just the other day, some wild Indians showed up to rape his wife and kidnap his children, but he beat them off single-handed.

NTTAWWT

WhyteRaven74: Thunderpipes: Idiot.

What an astounding retort.

nostudme: America will be worse off than Chicago after this empty head leaves.

Yes because one of the best law schools in the country hires empty heads to be professors.

lefande: our entire form of democracy.

I'm perfectly sure you would've been just fine with GM totally imploding.

Ever hear of affermative action? Yes, we have an affermative action president.

/He's also a freaking Commie.

PC LOAD LETTER:

Governments HAVE TO support the poor. Period. Not doing so in some form is suicide to people trying to stay in power.


I was just fine with zero real unemployment under most of the Bush Administration. Moots the issue, doesn't it?

locustfajita:

What small family owned farms? The Dust Bowl (and mechanized tractors) killed the sharecopper model of farming.

My bad. Should have used "family farm". If they would have been owners, they probably could have stayed on the land (fat lot of good it would have done them).

At any rate, the traditional method of average people working the land to subsist took it in the shorts. And it wasn't because some bureaucrat in Washington was over-managing the economy.

locustfajita:

Ever hear of affermative action? Yes, we have an affermative action president.

/He's also a freaking Commie.

I'm gonna feed you. Why? Because I want to know how you think. You should feel special.

What law required that we elect an African-American president? That's what AffIrmative Action means. If you could actually give me the reference, that would be neat.

Second, what specific policies has Obama instituted that are communist in nature. Specific links to those laws/policies on a government website would be most appreciated.

charkocu: Somaticasual: Doctor Funkenstein:

Someone should really 'shop palin in place of the baby. That'd be hilarious..

ZOMG! That would be ha-larious! It's not like we haven't already seen 100 more Palin photoshops than we needed to see in the first place, right? And who wants to laugh at a photoshop where Obama is the only one to laugh at? That's blasphemy!

+1 for the mediocre use of sarcasm. But come on', palin is second only to bush for the comedic goldmine. McCain comes in about 3rd for the easy elderly jokes, and limbaugh 4th for the pill/addiction snarks..

PC LOAD LETTER: The Greeks and Romans developed a very different way to handling the poor: slavery.

Romans had plenty of poor people. But by providing free running municipal water, free baths, free gyms etc they kept the poor from suffering various ill effects of poverty, like bad health. Course they didn't do it for the reason of public health, but just because it was the proper thing to do, to provide things for the people.

locustfajita: Ever hear of affermative action? Yes, we have an affermative action president.

You might want to learn to spell affirmative if you're going to use it. Then you may want to learn what affirmative action programs actually do.

Oh and then go learn what communism is.

YodaTuna: locustfajita:

Ever hear of affermative action? Yes, we have an affermative action president.

/He's also a freaking Commie.

I'm gonna feed you. Why? Because I want to know how you think. You should feel special.

What law required that we elect an African-American president? That's what AffIrmative Action means. If you could actually give me the reference, that would be neat.

Second, what specific policies has Obama instituted that are communist in nature. Specific links to those laws/policies on a government website would be most appreciated.

It's not worth it. Whenever someone pulls out the "commie" card, it's time to pull up stakes. They have no idea of what a communist or a socialist really is.

/omgz Boosh iz Nazi!
//And Chee-Nee is dubble Nazi!
///Lollerslashies!!!!1

yelmrog:

It's not worth it. Whenever someone pulls out the "commie" card, it's time to pull up stakes. They have no idea of what a communist or a socialist really is.



I guess I just want to know what compels someone to make a statement like that. It's a yearning, deep within my soul. It's one of the great questions of the universe for me. I can't help it.

Thomas Sowell, sweetheart to many in the GOP when it comes to economics, and like Obama a graduate of Columbia and Harvard universities. Though in reverse order, he got his bachelors at Harvard, his masters at Columbia. And he graduated from both in the 50s. When there was no affirmative action in place.

But I'm sure some people will still claim there's no way a negro honestly got into Columbia and Harvard.

YodaTuna: locustfajita:

Ever hear of affermative action? Yes, we have an affermative action president.

/He's also a freaking Commie.

I'm gonna feed you. Why? Because I want to know how you think. You should feel special.

What law required that we elect an African-American president? That's what AffIrmative Action means. If you could actually give me the reference, that would be neat.

Second, what specific policies has Obama instituted that are communist in nature. Specific links to those laws/policies on a government website would be most appreciated.

I'm saying that's how he got into Harvard in the first place. The man is an empty suit.

The whole progressive mantra is "productive people need to work more for less, so deadbeats can get stuff for free". Thats communisim. Thats Universal Health Care, thats Cap and Trade (deadbeats get cash vouchers to offset additional costs). If you work, and pay your bills, Obama has nothing to offer you but higher fees and taxes. If you are a societal parasite, life's gonna get a lot better!

Ok. Producers work more for less. Deadbeats get stuff for free. Are we clear on this???

kb7rky: /did someone bring butter?



/cook it in the microwave, and bing, pour on popcorn!
//mmmm... heart attack....

WhyteRaven74: technofiend: Not sure what you think is idiotic about his statement

There's a difference between moving jobs to where costs are lower and the talking point that it's all about taxes.

BTW labor costs aren't the only reason VW makes cars in Mexico for the US market. It's transportation costs. Lot cheaper to ship cars from Mexico than from Germany. All the same, not all US market VW's are made in Mexico, many are still made in Germany.

Right - I agree it isn't about taxes at all - he was calling you an idiot for saying otherwise. Taxes are the reasons US companies shifted their corporate HQ's overseas... if labor costs were an issue they'd just lobby for a bigger write down on labor costs in the US. I'm aware some VWs are still made in Germany - given the prevailing opinions on the quality differences between cars built in Germany versus Mexico and my personal experience in owning a "Mexican" VW my next VW will be German-built. It would be an interesting back-of-the-envelope exercise to compare container ship costs versus long-haul trucking costs. I'm sure container ships enjoy a huge economy of scale no 18-wheeler taking 12-14 cars can match. Of course sending cars from Mexico by train would be competitive, I think? Not sure without finding the actual costs, and assuming what sort of discounts VW may enjoy.

locustfajita: The whole progressive mantra is "productive people need to work more for less, so deadbeats can get stuff for free". Thats communisim. Thats Universal Health Care, thats Cap and Trade (deadbeats get cash vouchers to offset additional costs). If you work, and pay your bills, Obama has nothing to offer you but higher fees and taxes. If you are a societal parasite, life's gonna get a lot better!

Wow. Five sentences, and every single one of them completely wrong.

You have a freakin' talent.

Because the Trillion Bush spent on illegally invading Iraq and passing his own stimulus package is totally cool - but if the opposition party now in power precisely because of those screw ups tries to fix the mess he's left with OH shiat NO YOU DON'T

Chelsea Clinton Is Carrot Top's Lost Twin: nostudme: Farking pathetic. America will be worse off than Chicago after this empty head leaves.

Leaves? Hell, the guy hasn't even become President yet.

After all, according to the republicans, a person elected POTUS is not responsible for anything until September 12th.

Obama still has a couple of months to go.

And it's guaranteed that things will get worse by then. :)

/gimme fuel!

WhyteRaven74: Thomas Sowell

I occasionally hire economists, and I would hire him in a minute.

Barry Sowerto Obama?

Not so much.

That for me is affirmative action.

joethebastard: locustfajita: The whole progressive mantra is "productive people need to work more for less, so deadbeats can get stuff for free". Thats communisim. Thats Universal Health Care, thats Cap and Trade (deadbeats get cash vouchers to offset additional costs). If you work, and pay your bills, Obama has nothing to offer you but higher fees and taxes. If you are a societal parasite, life's gonna get a lot better!

Wow. Five sentences, and every single one of them completely wrong.

You have a freakin' talent.

Wow, I'm sure glad you set me straight. How am I wrong again? Throw me a bone.

Epoch_Zero: Because the Trillion Bush spent on illegally invading Iraq and passing his own stimulus package is totally cool - but if the opposition party now in power precisely because of those screw ups tries to fix the mess he's left with OH shiat NO YOU DON'T

It's different because he's a socialist. Or something.

Stays Crunchy in Milk: PC LOAD LETTER: Remember Descent:

The highest form of patriotic.

I loved that game.

Descent really was good for its time.

Chelsea Clinton Is Carrot Top's Lost Twin: After all, according to the republicans, a person elected POTUS is not responsible for anything until September 12th.

sand in your vagina? it's more common than you think.

It`s totally American to ruin our country,,,,,ya,,, Joe Biden said so,,,,

Epoch_Zero: Because the Trillion Bush spent on illegally invading Iraq and passing his own stimulus package is totally cool - but if the opposition party now in power precisely because of those screw ups tries to fix the mess he's left with OH shiat NO YOU DON'T

So how is that closing of Gitmo and repeal of the Patriot Act going? I mean your beloved liberals have control of the Legislature and the Executive now, so where is your CHANGE^tm?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

I'm quite sure that in some third world shiathole, there is some waterboarding going on by American actors upon some swarthy characters with Barry's knowledge and consent.

Sorry for the reality check. Please continue.

Stays Crunchy in Milk: (Descent cover art)

WIN

WhyteRaven74: Romans had plenty of poor people. But by providing free running municipal water, free baths, free gyms etc they kept the poor from suffering various ill effects of poverty, like bad health. Course they didn't do it for the reason of public health, but just because it was the proper thing to do, to provide things for the people.

It's called Noblesse Oblige.

When the upper class has it, the poor don't complain much. When they completely lose sight of it, bad things happen. Like the French Revolution. Or the Bolshevik Revolution. Or Africa.

The last time the American upper class had any of it was probably WW2-era. I realize that many of the internet money guys are trying to bring it back somewhat, but it's been gone for a while.

locustfajita: I'm saying that's how he got into Harvard in the first place.

With a BA from Columbia. Not too hard to get into Harvard Law if you have a BA from Columbia with good grades and LSAT score.

lefande: That for me is affirmative action.

So there's no way Obama could've done what Sowell did? Really?

technofiend: he was calling you an idiot for saying otherwise

The original statement was about moving jobs not HQ's because of taxes.

long-haul trucking costs

the cars are transported by trains to the main distribution point or points