that_other_internet: In my opinion, abuse occurs when accountability and responsibility can be relayed to software, deferred to by human operators as a pretext for engaging in "next level" activity, whatever that may be.

So you probably wouldn't care for Echelon, I take it.

/grins

erewhon: Even then, it's horrifically expensive to put up a 30' grid. What's the data gained, and is it worth the expense? Not only for the units, but installation, maintenance, upkeep etc.

Just to know where you are when you don't have a cellphone on you, it seems to be pointless, especially for the monetary expenditure. What you're up to is much more interesting.

There's also simpler ways to do it, tag scanners for cars comes to mind. Also seem to recall that they had OBD-III which was supposed to transmit your whereabouts on request, although I don't think it got anywhere, and of course the new road charge systems are good for that sort of thing also. There's you another London "service".

In a perfect 1984 world, the defining difference of RFID introduction into identity documents would be to unify as many possible functions into as few possible identifications. Conceivably, with centralization of your driver's license and passport information, you wouldn't need both. Same with payment authorization, roaming internet usage, etc. To me, it's that unification of function that represents the most serious threat, not so much in terms of surveillance, but in enforcement.

Again, many years down the road, pending ubiquitous adoption of convenience tech like RFID and Smart payment, function unification would not be out of the question and a person could indeed, be "turned off". Alone, it isn't much, but in combination with datamining, function unification, and most important, ubiquity, the future application of RFID represents not just surveillance, but also enforcement.

erewhon: Not so much that as "it's pointless for the expense incurred". Let's say you're Uncle Sam. What are you most interested in about Achmed Muhammed? Where he is all the time, or what he's doing or thinking about doing? While I admit it would be useful data in certain circumstances, I'm not sure it's worth the cost. You'd have to have one on every telephone pole.

That's assuming "Achmed" would be likely to attack any telephone and not assume he'd also prioritize his targets. For immediate practical application, I'd imagine they'd set up arrays first near sensitive targets, then near dense population centers, and finally at bottlenecks. I don't imagine the surveillance potential of RFID can or would be implemented simultaneously with ubiquitous adoption. Basically, after you're carrying the chip, they can modify and expand the capabilities at their leisure.

Besides, their definition of "Achmed The Terrorist" could also shift over the course of the technology's lifespan in society. One day you're erewhon, know-it-all engineer, and the next day you're Achmed, proprietary tech surveillance leak and security risk.

As the "Achmed" profile shifts, then the network could grow to include Achmed's new inclinations towards other targets and likely "Achmed" gathering spots. After a couple political swings of Administration, you could have enough networks to cover the travel tendencies of almost any "Achmed" and coincidentally most ordinary people as well.

The expense is almost entirely irrelevant when you consider that multi-billion(trillion, even) dollar programs could be funded purely within the accounting discrepancies of Defense and black budgets alone. More importantly, there is no time limit here. It's not as if these arrays MUST be implemented before everyone gets their new passport or DL. They could take the next century to either expand the network of scanners, or simply increase the range and power of scanner/transmitters.

Also, after everything's said and done, the RFID represents a capability the government has never had before. Practical or impractical, it is a new source of information, and potentially a new source of enforcement. I don't think there are practical limits (especially in terms of desire) to prevent the government from exploring all potential uses and abuses of this technology within the next few decades.

erewhon: that_other_internet: In my opinion, abuse occurs when accountability and responsibility can be relayed to software, deferred to by human operators as a pretext for engaging in "next level" activity, whatever that may be.

So you probably wouldn't care for Echelon, I take it.

/grins

noremorse: Youtube video: Guy buys reader on ebay and drives around San Francisco picking up passport ID numbers (new window)

That's Paget - he actually doesn't read passport ids whatsoever, but PASS cards, and I felt it was pretty misleading, which is why he and I had that discussion on engadget which I linked to a few posts back.

"You're correct that I'm cloning PASS cards and EDLs (as well as the other cards that make up the WHTI) - I've tried to be pretty clear about the difference but most media outlets seem to be confusing the two. The original source (at http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/02/low_cost_rfid_cloner/ ) is much clearer."

RFID Blocking Passport Billfold

Is what I use

/Yes I know it doesn't work when open

that_other_internet: They could take the next century to either expand the network of scanners, or simply increase the range and power of scanner/transmitters.

For h-field parts, it's pretty near impossible to do, for e-field parts like PASS, you could do bistatic arrays and get pretty good coverage. Fortunately, you can't implant e-field parts so you have to have people do it intentionally.

Of course, there's always other ways to do things without people toting around parts for you, if you're just after tracking people.

that_other_internet: That's assuming "Achmed" would be likely to attack any telephone

I'm thinking more of an example of the reader density required.

SMART cards don't flip my crank as a system either, but I'm not paranoid about it. As it is, they can render you an "unperson" now without RFID just by eradicating your credit cards and bank account, and I don't believe it's much tougher than turning off someone's putative RFID assets.

Just use a microwave. That'll fix those chips right up.

I noticed the local movie theatre took out all the credit card RFID readers on it's MasterCard/Visa terminals.

LittleSmitty: thesubliminalman: Has anyone got a fridge magnet the size of a bidnezz card? Would that help?

It will wipe the mag strip on your credit/debit cards, as well as the one on your DL if it is a new style like mine

No it won't. You don't just need a weak magnetic field to wipe electromagnetic data. You need it to be moving at a decent speed. Or get something stronger. An electromagnet or Degauser should work.

20 seconds in the microwave will take care of any pesky RFID problems with your passport. Not that I would ever suggest such a thing.

To The Escape Zeppelin!: There was some article about disabling the RFID tags. Put it between two thin books and hit it with a hammer. But since purposely disabling the chip is illegal, never admit it was anything but an accident.

Microwave?

oryx: So when they embed the RFIDs into citizens themselves, we'll all have to wear tin foil suits?

It's coming as predicted. This is when I find a nice, well off the beaten path place in Montana, or maybe Alaska to live out my days.

One minute in the microwave will take care of those RFIDs.

Whoever thought this was a good idea should DIAF.

eggrolls: 20 seconds in the microwave will take care of any pesky RFID problems with your passport. Not that I would ever suggest such a thing.

Mr. Breeze: oryx: So when they embed the RFIDs into citizens themselves, we'll all have to wear tin foil suits?

It's coming as predicted. This is when I find a nice, well off the beaten path place in Montana, or maybe Alaska to live out my days.

And here I come in with this nifty idea, only to see it's already been suggested.

/sulk
//kicks cat